Should I even bother applying a fourth time?

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The abbreviated story:

3.4 GPA
40 MCAT
BS in Animal Bio
MS in Biochem
2 pubs (1 complete, 1 in press)
A couple hundred hours working in animal labs (swine/macaques/ferrets/etc)
Worked as CNA for a few months
Shadowing: yes.
Other standard checkbox activities
Self-employed as a Ochem tutor the past year.



Had 3 bad cycles already, for the following reasons:
1. Serious illness which required hospitalization and 2+ trips to the OR (as a patient! What fun!). Decided to put off applications until I could stand upright.
2. Broke as hell. Sent a few primaries, sent a couple secondaries. Spent most of my time trying to find a source of funds so I could apply next year.
3. Had a source of funding who delayed sending funds for primaries until September, then, upon seeing the cost, decided to not help at all. Still managed to complete a few. Got a couple interviews, all of which were either completely bland or of the "stress" variety (there's a good way to waste a couple grand!).



Most schools will only accept an MCAT for 3 years, though some will accept one a fourth year. Here is a list of 18 potential schools posted by another user on this site (one which I will check against the MSAR if I get to that point):

Case Western, Emory, Albert Einstein, University of Rochester, SLU, Boston University, Tufts, Hofstra, UT-Galveston, Loyola, Tufts, Boca Raton, Commonwealth, Wake Forest, Albany Medical College, Missouri-Columbia, Missouri-Kansas City, Chicago Medical School



So, the question is this: If I can somehow find the money to go through this hell again (or convince FAP to open up), should I even bother applying again? Is there anything to be gained (aside from thousands of dollars of debt and endless heartache)?

Or should I cut my losses and do [other career here]?
 
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I dont see what reason there is not to include and try DO schools as well.

If it's come to the point where you are entertaining other careers but still want to pursue medicine, applying DO as well sounds like a reasonable/necessary choice. Not a single DO matriculant hit 40 on the MCAT last year(only 1% hit 35+) so you can see where your score puts you. It doesnt sound like you are a reapplicant at many MD schools given youve only applied to a few at a time which also certainly helps.
 
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dude you can do it, apply DO and I dunno maybe you'll snag some amazing scholarships.
 
This time you need the money to do it right. You are need to be ready on day 1 and you need to add some DO programs. It sucks that it costs so much but it can work.

Sent from my QTAQZ3 using SDN mobile
 
Why not include DO schools?

Get anything in the same stratosphere of 40 on an MCAT retake and you are very likely to get into a DO school if MD doesnt work out. If it's come to the point where you are entertaining other careers but still want to pursue medicine, applying DO as well sounds like a reasonable choice. Not a single DO matriculant last year had a 40 on the MCAT(only 1% hit 35+) so you can tell where such a high score would put you. It doesnt sound like you are a reapplicant at many MD schools given youve only applied to a few at a time which also certainly helps.


I am fully willing to go to DO schools, but:

1. Not sure if any of them accept a 4-y.o. MCAT. (Will research this)

2. I have noticed a trend where the lower-ranked a school I apply to, the less they seem interested in me. It's as if a 40 MCAT screams to low-ranked schools (and my state school) "I DON'T REALLY WANT TO GO TO YOUR SCHOOL AND AM SENDING YOU AN APP ONLY BECAUSE I NEED A SAFETY IN CASE I CAN'T GET INTO A GOOD SCHOOL." Meanwhile, higher-ranked schools will look at my GPA and the less-than-average checkbox activities and pass my MCAT off as a fluke or something.

Seriously I should have scored a 35 on the MCAT so my app would at least be consistent, without one stat that stands out like a beacon.
 
I am fully willing to go to DO schools, but:

1. Not sure if any of them accept a 4-y.o. MCAT. (Will research this)

2. I have noticed a trend where the lower-ranked a school I apply to, the less they seem interested in me. It's as if a 40 MCAT screams to low-ranked schools (and my state school) "I DON'T REALLY WANT TO GO TO YOUR SCHOOL AND AM SENDING YOU AN APP ONLY BECAUSE I NEED A SAFETY IN CASE I CAN'T GET INTO A GOOD SCHOOL." Meanwhile, higher-ranked schools will look at my GPA and the less-than-average checkbox activities and pass my MCAT off as a fluke or something.

Seriously I should have scored a 35 on the MCAT so my app would at least be consistent, without one stat that stands out like a beacon.

Your state school isnt rejecting you because your MCAT is too high. The fact there wasnt a single DO matriculant with a 40+ last year is a byproduct of the applicant pool not the schools make a conscientious decisions to ignore all of these applicants.
 
40 mcat and no acceptances for 3 cycles... Damn
You should apply to all your state schools and some low-tier MD's. Show interest and stay in contact with them.
 
not the schools make a conscientious decisions to ignore all of these applicants
You don't think yield protection (sorry, resource management) is real?

The abbreviated story:

3.4 GPA
40 MCAT
BS in Animal Bio
MS in Biochem
2 pubs (1 complete, 1 in press)
A couple hundred hours working in animal labs (swine/macaques/ferrets/etc)
Worked as CNA for a few months
Shadowing: yes.
Other standard checkbox activities
Self-employed as a Ochem tutor the past year.



Had 3 bad cycles already, for the following reasons:
1. Serious illness which required hospitalization and 2+ trips to the OR (as a patient! What fun!). Decided to put off applications until I could stand upright.
2. Broke as hell. Sent a few primaries, sent a couple secondaries. Spent most of my time trying to find a source of funds so I could apply next year.
3. Had a source of funding who delayed sending funds for primaries until September, then, upon seeing the cost, decided to not help at all. Still managed to complete a few. Got a couple interviews, all of which were either completely bland or of the "stress" variety (there's a good way to waste a couple grand!).



Most schools will only accept an MCAT for 3 years, though some will accept one a fourth year. Here is a list of 18 potential schools posted by another user on this site (one which I will check against the MSAR if I get to that point):

Case Western, Emory, Albert Einstein, University of Rochester, SLU, Boston University, Tufts, Hofstra, UT-Galveston, Loyola, Tufts, Boca Raton, Commonwealth, Wake Forest, Albany Medical College, Missouri-Columbia, Missouri-Kansas City, Chicago Medical School



So, the question is this: If I can somehow find the money to go through this hell again (or convince FAP to open up), should I even bother applying again? Is there anything to be gained (aside from thousands of dollars of debt and endless heartache)?

Or should I cut my losses and do [other career here]?
Why didn't you qualify for FAP? Would you have the $ this time around (or newly qualify for FAP) to apply early to more than a few schools? With a 40, pubs, and those experiences some of the names you listed would probably love to interview you!
 
You could take the new test. Your testing strategy elped so many, and I imagine that if you score well, even if it is not 520+ that you would get interviews. I wish you had been able to move to a friendlier state. And what else would you want to do?

Sent from my QTAQZ3 using SDN mobile
 
You don't think yield protection (sorry, resource management) is real?

It's very real. Just like people waste money on reach schools every year, plenty of people waste tons of money on lower tier MD schools that arent likely to interview them because they dont interview many with an MCAT that high.

But this is MD we are talking about. That doesnt mean there wont be many DO schools lining up to interview someone with a score this high even if some might identify someone with a score this high. Goro would tell you the exact same thing.
 
You don't think yield protection (sorry, resource management) is real?


Why didn't you qualify for FAP? Would you have the $ this time around (or newly qualify for FAP) to apply early to more than a few schools? With a 40, pubs, and those experiences some of the names you listed would probably love to interview you!

I don't qualify for FAP because my mother makes a couple $ above the cutoff line.
 
It's very real. Just like people waste money on reach schools every year, plenty of people waste tons of money on lower tier MD schools that arent likely to interview them because they dont interview many with an MCAT that high.

But this is MD we are talking about. That doesnt mean there wont be many DO schools lining up to interview someone with a score this high even if some might identify someone with a score this high. Goro would tell you the exact same thing.
I agree that low tier schools won't usually interview someone with a 40 MCAT and instead interview someone with a 28-30 that will matriculate if accepted. I had to deal with financial issues like OP did and I understand how stressful this can be when money is tight. I hope the OP applies again and includes DO schools as well.
 
That doesnt mean there wont be many DO schools lining up to interview someone with a score this high
Interesting thought that low MD vs DO would change whether they said "skip, using us as a safety"

@Goro what say you? Would a 40 be reason more to interview someone or to skip and use the slot on another applicant?

I don't qualify for FAP because my mother makes a couple $ above the cutoff line.
Would it be possible to save up a couple years to apply to more like 10 schools?
 
I don't qualify for FAP because my mother makes a couple $ above the cutoff line.
This is tough, have you applied to the schools you mentioned accepting mcat previously? If so, I would highly inform you to apply to 3 schools this cycle that you know your numerics fall well into. I would then think about using the rest of the time applying to a 1year post-bac masters geared program; if deadlines haven't passed by right now, I would highly suggest you get on the wagon. In total you are going to lose atmost 2 extra years but could gain significantly by being linked with a program that can get students into their medical school like Tulane. With your testing strategy, you won't have a problem with this current mcat even though it'll prompt you to study again.
 
This is tough, have you applied to the schools you mentioned accepting mcat previously? If so, I would highly inform you to apply to 3 schools this cycle that you know your numerics fall well into. I would then think about using the rest of the time applying to a 1year post-bac masters geared program; if deadlines haven't passed by right now, I would highly suggest you get on the wagon. In total you are going to lose atmost 2 extra years but could gain significantly by being linked with a program that can get students into their medical school like Tulane. With your testing strategy, you won't have a problem with this current mcat even though it'll prompt you to study again.
Great idea. The programs often have time to study for an MCAT retake, which you would kill. It would be a way to show you can handle the rigor and you wouldn't feel like you were in limbo.

Sent from my QTAQZ3 using SDN mobile
 
My school has, AFAIK, never practiced resource protection. I've interviewed folks with 40 MCATs...two, I think. Both had personality defects and both got outright rejected.

But what about Spinach???? He'd get an II at my school and plenty of other DO schools.

But should he apply????? Money is an issue, and he's caught between limited funds and an expiring MCAT. Waiting to accrue the former means a retake of the latter.

Maybe take a crack at UNECOM and TouroNY.

If not, time to hang it up and go for Plan B.


It's very real. Just like people waste money on reach schools every year, plenty of people waste tons of money on lower tier MD schools that arent likely to interview them because they dont interview many with an MCAT that high.

But this is MD we are talking about. That doesnt mean there wont be many DO schools lining up to interview someone with a score this high even if some might identify someone with a score this high. Goro would tell you the exact same thing.
 
My school has, AFAIK, never practiced resource protection. I've interviewed folks with 40 MCATs...two, I think. Both had personality defects and both got outright rejected.

But what about Spinach???? He'd get an II at my school and plenty of other DO schools.

But should he apply????? Money is an issue, and he's caught between limited funds and an expiring MCAT. Waiting to accrue the former means a retake of the latter.

Maybe take a crack at UNECOM and TouroNY.

If not, time to hang it up and go for Plan B.


TY for the advice.

Do you know of any DO schools that accept 4 year old MCATs?
 
Do some soul searching. If you decide that medicine is what you really want to do, get a job (in research perhaps), work for a year (or two), build up an application fund, take the new MCAT and apply.
 
I hate that you're in this spot because I read a few a of your posts and I think you've been extremely helpful. I'm broke too so my only option was being a "full-time student" in the summer so I can take out a student loan, through my parent (with his consent of course). You can try a private loan, your mom may have to consign.
Before I get quoted as a dummy, my logic here is if all else goes well you'll be hella in debt when you get your MD. Is hella in debt + 3K really really going to make a difference. See if that's a possible option for you.

If not...
You can take your story to social media! Do a GoFundMe. I'm pretty sure at least 100 SDN members have a dollar to give lol.
 
Had 3 bad cycles already, for the following reasons:
1. Serious illness which required hospitalization and 2+ trips to the OR (as a patient! What fun!). Decided to put off applications until I could stand upright.
2. Broke as hell. Sent a few primaries, sent a couple secondaries. Spent most of my time trying to find a source of funds so I could apply next year.
3. Had a source of funding who delayed sending funds for primaries until September, then, upon seeing the cost, decided to not help at all. Still managed to complete a few. Got a couple interviews, all of which were either completely bland or of the "stress" variety (there's a good way to waste a couple grand!).

I read most of your post back when I started my MCAT grind. Your story really inspired me to do better on the MCAT; I increased my score by 11 pts after two retakes and will be starting classes by July. Time has gone by then and I thought you were accepted by now -- I guessed wrong.

nonetheless, I would definitely apply a 4th time. I would dedicate my time in researching which schools accept a 4th year MCAT.

I (n=4) like the idea of GoFundMe.


Doesn't sound like you've ever done a complete 100% cycle, thus, I'd expect if you did a cycle "correctly (ie. the SDN way)", you'll get in.

:nod:
 
Hey buddy - I really hope you apply again and finally get that one acceptance. You CAN do it!

I'd stop trying to apply until you can, like above posters said, do a COMPLETE cycle the SDN way. Make sure you have the funds to apply to 15-20 schools (probably around 2k), with 1-2k saved up for travel. Then, make sure you submit The application the day or the week AMCAS opens up (try to submit by June 4th or something early).

You don't want to keep sinking money. Save up enough with some type of job, your pre-req's and experiences are already enough, and apply. I hope for your sake that you can find 15-18 schools that take MCATs >3 years old, it would really suck to have to sit that exam again if you already did really well.
 
One concern about a DO/MD cycle would be if you are admitted to a DO school with a high deposit required early in the cycle while your preferred schools have not yet given you a decision. It doesn't appear you are in a position to plunk down $1K non refundable. Just another thing to keep in mind.
 
Another thing in addition to all of this is that you could do early decision to your state school, after talking to the dean. I was poor AF duing the cycle so it was the only way, and probably the only way they would take me as my stats are way above their averages. I was out $275 for the MCAT and ~$200 for the AMCAS + secondary.
 
I would do terrible, terrible things for that MCAT score...You owe it to yourself to give it 1 more, 100% full throttle go around. Years later I think you will regret it if you don't. Absolute best of luck, you deserve this!
 
You should talk to someone in real life to confirm that there are no major red flags in your application/interview style that will keep you out. (You did get interviews after all.) Failing that, figure out the money NOW instead of later. That means getting the money now whether it's through loans or arranging a line of credit. What do you do all day? O-chem tutor is not a full-time job.

Cycles 2 and 3 show really bad judgment. Applying to only a few schools due to money (when it is such an insignificant amount in the long-term compared to the cost of applying again) or not arranging the money ahead of time set you up to fail. So owning up to that and addressing that, and making sure that you are going to be able to handle whatever interviews you get is important. (For example, "a couple of interviews" is enough for a lot of people to get an acceptance. Presumably most people at those schools got the same style of interview you got. What will make you accepted next time?)
 
If you really want to be a doctor (it seems that you do)...

Then you should do whatever it takes to apply this cycle very early. I don't know the details with schools accepting your MCAT score so you will have to do that research on your own. I would think calling the schools you listed is a good idea here. But since it seems like the money is an issue, you just have to find a way to work with that and apply the right way. Get a CC that allows 12-18 months no interest. You should be able to get something. That should be able to last if you get in until you get federal loans, or you might be able to pay it off since you are working. Try getting another job that pays more. I don't know how much you make but I was able to pay for all my app stuff while working as a waiter. So look for anything where you can make more money, I'm assuming your not currently in school so you should be able to work as much as humanly possible. 2 jobs, whatever it takes. Even if you get a low paying night job 3x a week. You can pretty much pay for your application cycle. Start a Go Fund Me. Stand on the street. Etc. Apply both DO and MD but make sure you apply early.
 
This is tough, have you applied to the schools you mentioned accepting mcat previously? If so, I would highly inform you to apply to 3 schools this cycle that you know your numerics fall well into. I would then think about using the rest of the time applying to a 1year post-bac masters geared program; if deadlines haven't passed by right now, I would highly suggest you get on the wagon. In total you are going to lose atmost 2 extra years but could gain significantly by being linked with a program that can get students into their medical school like Tulane. With your testing strategy, you won't have a problem with this current mcat even though it'll prompt you to study again.
Doing a postbacc when he can't afford to apply is stupid. He'd be better off just retaking the MCAT and going DO/MD for one last cycle. A year is plenty of time to make some extra money.
 
Agreeing with the folks who say it doesn't sound like you've ever really done a full-court-press application cycle.

From what you've said, you have one shining beacon in your application -- a sky-high MCAT score. I don't mean to diminish that (it's an amazing accomplishment), but with only a fair GPA and average ECs, you're a bit of an anomaly. Add in the fact that your MCAT is now wobbling on it's last legs, which might logically make one wonder if you're a multi-cycle re-applicant, thus, there's some sort of problem that showed up in interviews -- which surely you've had multitudes of due to aforementioned sky-high MCAT. Except you really haven't because you've applied to so few schools...

Kind of a Catch 22 situation. I'm sorry, but to me, it sounds like you're in trouble --

There have been a few stories posted on SDN about 'applicants in trouble' who faced difficult odds but who then formulated long-view strategies and plans that ultimately succeeded. This is what I think you need to do -- If you really, really want to become a physician, sit down and map out what you need to do. Realize that your strategy may take more than a year to complete, but if becoming a physician is that important to you, it'll be worth it. Formulate that long-term plan, then execute.
  • From what you've said about your application cycles and current credentials, I'd suggest that your plan include some fresh coursework with top grades. (A 3.4 GPA for someone capable of scoring a 40 MCAT raises questions. Lazy? Drugs? Mental health issues? You need to convincingly show that whatever caused the lackluster GPA is no longer a problem.)
  • You need to apply to a much larger number and wider range of schools and somehow, raise the funds to make this possible. I would absolutely not rule out crowdfunding, but don't rely on it either since you'll never know if it's available or not until it is/isn't...
  • You'll probably need to retake the MCAT just for timing reasons, so build in some study time. Don't go nuts over it because a drop from the 99.999% to the 95% still says "Really Smart Applicant" who knows this stuff.
  • You'll need to continue volunteering of some sort. If you've got something long term, keep it going. But if it's boring, dial back somewhat and add something interesting and uncomfortable - hospice, Alzheimer's, disabled, crisis center, homeless, etc.
Most importantly though, you really need to examine why it is that you've been unable to translate your 'ingredients' into a successful application cycle. From what you've said, your application efforts sound half-hearted and your reasons for why you were not able to apply more widely sound like excuses. (I'm sorry - I don't intend that cruelly.) From you, I would most want to see demonstrated resilience and the ability to map out a plan to overcome obstacles. The obstacles won't end once you've been accepted into medical school; and so far, you haven't done that --
 
One concern about a DO/MD cycle would be if you are admitted to a DO school with a high deposit required early in the cycle while your preferred schools have not yet given you a decision. It doesn't appear you are in a position to plunk down $1K non refundable. Just another thing to keep in mind.
This is a good point. The way to get around it might be to intentionally apply late to DO schools and June 1 for MDs. DO deposits are typically due 2-3 weeks after acceptance, which can happen soon as a week after you interview. Postponing those interviews should increase your flexibility. I would think they'll still be quite interested in you as a late applicant.
 
Thirding GoFundMe. I'm certain many people (including myself) would be willing to pitch in some assistance.

Also what about a credit card? Especially one that helps you build up airline miles.

I'm also down to donate
 
I forgot where I read it but I think the Texas schools accept MCATs up to 5 years old?
 
I think @DokterMom's advice is, as always, spot-on. I know that being able to earn and save up the money for a full cycle of apps is a challenge for you. But what if you got a full-time research gig and took some classes part-time to boost your GPA? Really, any job that pays decently will suffice but you have research experience and a Master's. Working in this area might give you an added sense of accomplishment -- knowing that you're earning money and gaining valuable experience that will look great on apps, not just killing time until you're in a good place to apply. Just wanted to throw it out there since I've actually been able to make decent money working in clinical research and I don't even have a Master's.
 
Is this legit? There is a such thing as getting to high of a score on the MCAT?
 
Is this legit? There is a such thing as getting to high of a score on the MCAT?

I would say yes. A 40+ MCAT with a <3.6 GPA likely signals "he had a good day" to many adcoms, true or not.

I wouldn't think luck, I'd think "smart but lazy." The lack of a full-time job and only a few hundred hours of work would support this. (A full-time job would be 2000 hrs/year.)

Schools practice yield protection for a good reason. That having been said. And I say this as someone who applied fairly successfully with a 3.4/40+...

A 40 on your MCAT is just one number. It doesn't make you a good candidate by itself. In the same way that in a vacuum, a 3.9+ GPA doesn't mean a ton, the MCAT is one variable in a complicated equation. It is probably one of the largest variables, but it isn't the end all be all. If you are lacking in other areas of your application, you are far less likely to be successful in your application process.

The reality is, that of those that got a 40+, if they had a 3.8+ GPA, 93% got in. a 3.4-3.6 77% got in. Scores are incredibly important, but lacking in multiple other categories will certainly make going where you want to go much more difficult.
 
@Spinach Dip - med schools aren't going anywhere... people have suggested retaking courses and/or additional courses to show the 3.4 was an anomaly.

To me, each year it seems like a rushed, not-well thought out app cycle. My story is on here everywhere and won't belabor it here... you are still young.

Maybe, go work for a few years like 5 or so. Stockpile some money, maybe get a job in the hospital/research centers, etc. Go live life and get away from being a non-admitted premed because that alone is stressful and demoralizing.

The issue I see is this: if you apply again - and likely get rejected again because of what Doktermom said - your own self-esteem will stick for a long, long time. However, if you end this now on YOUR TERMS, knowing full well you can come back to it later, your own self esteem will flourish.

Yes, you would have to retake the MCAT. Who cares, it's not some devil.

Yes, you would have to retake some courses or add additional ones. Who cares, it just makes you more prepared to be accepted.

PLUS you have the ability to say: "I'm a reapp but reviewed my weak areas and thought it time to shore them up. This is what I've done... " and then have a laundry list of things you've done and accomplished.

Which do you think is more palatable to adcoms? Rushed, harried, "omg my MCAT is expiring and I'm mediocre at best" or "Took some time to rethink this whole thing, worked a bit, saved money and this is what I've accomplished."

Best of luck to you. I've sat in your shoes, was told at 34 I was dead in the water. At 51, I *may* have a shot.
 
@mimelim makes an important point. I think the lesson here -- and one which is often not particularly emphasized in WAMC answers -- is that an applicant ought to strive to create a balanced picture of themselves. There's a reason the "cookie-cutter" model actually works for a lot of people every year. An applicant with 3.6+\510 and 250 hours volunteering is a safe bet. Their scores and activities align with one another to create an image of a typical successful med school applicant.

And this is where OP's fantastic MCAT score may actually be hurting him, as a few posters have pointed out. It doesn't align very well with the rest of his app, and may well contribute an inconsistent picture of him as an applicant.
 
I'm struggling to understand why in 3 years you couldn't make enough money for applications?
Like... what have you been actually doing in the past 3 years?
Why do you not qualify for FAP?
Why don't you take out loans?
 
Doing a postbacc when he can't afford to apply is stupid. He'd be better off just retaking the MCAT and going DO/MD for one last cycle. A year is plenty of time to make some extra money.
some post-baccs can give scholarship money based off of scores an applicant has made. Your mcat score will make many turn their heads towards you in a good way. Seeing that the candidate has a 3.4 gpa, why not just occupy yourself with a post-bac if you can't find a job? It doesn't hurt to cover all bases. But you are right, if you don't have money, how can you even apply to such programs. But in the off chance you get an app waiver to applying for these post-baccs I say why not?
 
Being honest I just skipped through most of this thread to tell you that the DO fee waiver is much more forgiving than the FAP. They don't take into consideration parents income if you are independent (sounds like you are). You'd have to retake the MCAT but if you got 505+ you'd be all but guaranteed an acceptance. Don't give up.
 
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