Should I leave my BS/DO program and apply MD?

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gottagofast said:
Yea, that's the thing. Shouldn't I be fine for applying to DO schools? Why does me losing my BS/DO acceptance seem to mean I'll be losing my only chance at medical school? Thank you for your input! I've mentioned the P/F thing in a previous comment -- it also makes me worried about the future of DOs.
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Because some people are confused about BS/DO! They are assuming that you are declining a DO acceptance for a chance at MD. My issue is being an ORM with 510 MCAT score not much clinical hours you most likely will end up with another DO. That's why I explicitly asked the tuition (for DO) and whether you have issues with current program. I am not an adcom, but I know enough about combined programs and Medical schools.
 
EdgeTrimmer said:
I still don't understand you insisting your gender is an issue. Most schools have 50-50 split between two genders.
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With all respect, all the doctors I've shadowed have been women and every single one has told me stories about not being taken seriously as a doctor. I am sure other female doctors have similar experiences and there are many op-eds online. It's a societal issue that I hope will be fixed.
EdgeTrimmer said:
Is that for medical school?
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Yes, it is for medical school. I'm instate. I don't have issues with my school, I have enjoyed my time here, but it is dull spending 7 years on the same small campus. Even if I go to another DO school, the change in scenery would be appreciated. I'd definitely apply to city osteopathic schools.
 
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gottagofast said:
With all respect, all the doctors I've shadowed have been women and every single one has told me stories about not being taken seriously as a doctor. I am sure other female doctors have similar experiences. It's a societal issue that I hope will be fixed.

Yes, it is for medical school.
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How old are these physicians? May be it happened during that time. I still don't buy that and just now I asked my wife who is a physician and a department head and she doesn't agree with what you heard.
 
EdgeTrimmer said:
How old are these physicians? May be it happened during that time. I still don't buy that and just now I asked my wife who is a physician and a department head and she doesn't agree with what you heard.
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They are in their 40-50s. One is in primary care and the other is a trauma surgeon. My psychiatrist (who I did not shadow) also shared her stories. It's not fair for you to invalidate their experiences based on your wife's anecdotes. There are also numerous recent op-eds online, which I can link. Women absolutely face negative bias in medicine. Some may be lucky enough to never experience it, like your wife, but that does not mean it doesn't exist. This is mimicking the argument about racism not existing and diverging from my post topic.
 
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The other question is, how good is the residency match list for your current DO school ?

If you are in a top tier DO school such as PCOM, KCU-COM, DMU-COM or CCOM, they do have good residency placements.

If you are in a second or third tier DO school, and if majority of the graduates are matching into primary care/ less desired specialties, then you can reconsider your options.
 
What was your thought process to join 7 year BS/DO program at age 17-18 after high school? And what is changed since then?
 
LaughingGas10 said:
The other question is, how good is the residency match list for your current DO school ?

If you are in a top tier DO school such as PCOM, KCU-COM, DMU-COM or CCOM, they do have good residency placements.

If you are in a second or third tier DO school, and if majority of the graduates are matching into primary care/ less desired specialties, then you can reconsider your options.
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Oh, good question!
I think my school is second tier (?). I thought it ranked pretty well, but it was not in your list. We had a 98% match rate and there are a decent amount of surgery matches. Of course, vast majority go into primary care. No ultra competitive specialties like ortho, plastics, or dermatology. I'm just worried this trend won't hold out once the merge happens. So I'm still alright with attending my school based on the current match list.
 
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HopeP said:
What was your thought process to join 7 year BS/DO program at age 17-18 after high school? And what is changed since then?
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Haha, exactly as coolsands155 said. I originally was going to go to a T20 and pursue pre-med there, but my parents much preferred the safety of the BS/DO program. I also had extreme doubts in my academic abilities, which is why I allowed my parents to make the final decision. My program's minimums were relatively easy to make compared to the traditional averages.
I'm still absolutely certain I want to do medicine, nothing has changed. I just didn't have much of a choice in choosing the program versus doing traditional.
 
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HopeP said:
You just had or still do you have?
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Erm, I suppose I had? I honestly doubted I could keep a 3.7+ GPA and score even above average on the MCAT, but I'm far more confident in my abilities now. I do think had I had more time to prepare for the MCAT, I could score better.
 
coolsands155 said:
Nothing wrong with choosing an "easier school" over a T20. I'd probably recommend that to high schoolers and to my children in the future. But when it comes to med school prestige does matter a lot more than college.

With COMLEX level 1 going P/F you can't just bank on killing level 2 or CK if you want to pursue a competitive specialty. You could have one bad day and all of your work/research goes down the drain. You'll do less damage to yourself if that happened as an MD student.

Anecdotal but 3/6 of my close friends from college regret not taking a gap year to beef up their app for MD (one even got many MD IIs but lacked interview skills), one is thriving, and the two that went MD have little to no complaints.
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Yeah, I saved a ton of money. It was also a lot easier on my health to be near home and be the "big fish in a little pond". But I always wonder, 'what if...', you know? Especially since the T20 was my dream school. I guess that's what I'm trying to avoid right now.
The P/F thing was a big bummer, especially since it's happening for my year. I honestly don't know how it'll play out, especially without several classes before me. I understand why MD's may have an easier time.
I appreciate the anecdote. Gap years are good things, I think. They helped out my friends as well.
 
gottagofast said:
I do think had I had more time to prepare for the MCAT, I could score better.
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That's why you hear repeatedly that you want to give MCAT only once with full preparation, not trial and error. You already used one chance. Giving MCAT second time and if you score + few points, not going to make meaningful difference, unless you jumped 10 points, risk is if you loose some points and now really defensive to even get a DO admission.
 
HopeP said:
That's why you hear repeatedly that you want to give MCAT only once with full preparation, not trial and error. You already used one chance. Giving MCAT second time and if you score + few points, not going to make meaningful difference, unless you jumped 10 points, risk is if you loose some points and now really defensive to even get a DO admission.
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To be fair, my program forced all of us to take the MCAT early so I couldn't have been fully prepared. I hadn't even finished a biochemistry class at the time of my test. We really got pushed ahead.
 
gottagofast said:
To be fair, my program forced all of us to take the MCAT early so regardless, I couldn't have full preparation. I hadn't even finished a biochemistry class at the time of my test.
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agree with you the limitations you had, but it seems all your decisions driven by risk averse nature only, not by your own choice, which may lead to immature behavior. It is difficult to digest you have MD thoughts after MCAT score, you knew very well that you are not fully prepared for MCAT, yet you decide to give because you are forced by school requirements.
This reminds me the bird-in-hand argument by parents of high schooles and in doing so cut their own kids wings..
 
HopeP said:
agree with you the limitations you had, but it seems all your decisions driven by risk averse nature only, not by your own choice, which may lead to immature behavior. It is difficult to digest you have MD thoughts after MCAT score, you knew very well that you are not fully prepared for MCAT, yet you decide to give because you are forced by school requirements.
This reminds me the bird-in-hand argument by high schooles and in doing so cut their own wings..
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Sigh, you are spot on. I've always followed the safe route -- I have yet to experience true adversity. I posted about my concerns for the BS/DO program on here 3 years ago and received that exact saying: "bird-in-hand". Perhaps I did clip my own wings. Thank you for writing this.
 
OP, normally I'd agree with Goro and say you'd be silly not to take a guaranteed acceptance anywhere. Every cycle there are applicants with excellent records wondering why they didn't get any acceptances, or even interviews.

I know earlier posts on this thread have mentioned taking gap years as a way to "beef up" an application before applying, but honestly? I'm not sure why anyone would want to go straight through from BS to DO or MD with no break. There is so much to see and so much to do in the world, even in COVID times. Things that can better inform you as a person who plans to treat patients from all walks of life. I wouldn't underestimate the value of taking some time to pursue something non-academic that you truly enjoy. If you end up deciding to drop the DO spot, I'd take a couple of years and run with it. You have time.
 
I have to agree with Goro on this one. You have a guaranteed pathway to becoming a doctor. You might be interested in plastics now, but you will likely change your mind since most students do.

I'm sure everyone else on this forum has already drilled you on GPA, MCAT, and Clinical Experience (of which you're missing the latter two), but no one has yet discussed the mental stress of admissions cycle. When you took the MCAT, you had to wait a few weeks anxiously, right? Imagine that but twice as more intense and lasting almost a year. That is what 60% of students who apply every year experience. I already have an MD admission, but if our school offered me a BS/MD or DO pathway, then I would take it since I wouldn't have to be so anxious during the admissions cycle...
 
gottagofast said:
With all respect, all the doctors I've shadowed have been women and every single one has told me stories about not being taken seriously as a doctor. I am sure other female doctors have similar experiences and there are many op-eds online. It's a societal issue that I hope will be fixed.
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I can second this. I work in an ER where the majority of attending physicians are women, and I have heard every single one of them say "I am the doctor" many times. It's worse for the younger ones.
 
I'm not sure why anyone would want to go straight through from BS to DO or MD with no break. There is so much to see and so much to do in the world, even in COVID times. Things that can better inform you as a person who plans to treat patients from all walks of life.
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This is so valid, thank you. I've always been open to a gap year considering I'm already a year younger and the program just pushes me further ahead. The idea of BS --> DO --> Residency --> Fellowship with no breaks is terrifying, but it's what my classmates are doing and I guess I still feel obligated to do the same. More life experience would be great.
caterwaiter said:
I can second this. I work in an ER where the majority of attending physicians are women, and I have heard every single one of them say "I am the doctor" many times. It's worse for the younger ones.
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Thank you. I was honestly baffled that he continued to deny the existence of gender discrimination in medicine.
 
coolsands155 said:
You'd trade the next 40-50 years of your career for a few months to a year of low stress? (there's good stress and bad stress - depends on how you manage it)
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Yes. To me, I don't want to waste a year in my early 20's worrying about my future career. I'd rather make money, travel, and make memories in my 20's before I bury myself in books and start 40-50 years of stable career. Just my 2 cents.
 
coolsands155 said:
OP scored better than 80% of test-takers and a 510 is upper 15% of DO matriculants. I'm honestly impressed she managed to get that score at such a young age, it feels rushed. With more time and a good schedule getting a 514-516 would make a world of difference. Lots of MD schools look at the most recent score.

Like @caterwaiter said, there's so much to do and to see in the world, and no need to rush into arguably the most intensive career. Why women leave medicine | AAMC
Taking an extra year or two to relax a little bit and to further develop healthy study/life habits can't hurt.
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Thank you, it's nice to hear that for once in this thread. I know it's below average for matriculant Asians, but still, it's a little hurtful when that's all everyone points out. The article you linked was an informative read, I never knew the stats were that high.
 
JimKimSlim said:
I have to agree with Goro on this one. You have a guaranteed pathway to becoming a doctor. You might be interested in plastics now, but you will likely change your mind since most students do.

I'm sure everyone else on this forum has already drilled you on GPA, MCAT, and Clinical Experience (of which you're missing the latter two), but no one has yet discussed the mental stress of admissions cycle. When you took the MCAT, you had to wait a few weeks anxiously, right? Imagine that but twice as more intense and lasting almost a year. That is what 60% of students who apply every year experience. I already have an MD admission, but if our school offered me a BS/MD or DO pathway, then I would take it since I wouldn't have to be so anxious during the admissions cycle...
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Yes, I fully anticipate the possibility of me changing my mind. However, I don't have the same experience with the admission cycle as you have, I guess. Maybe that's why I haven't considered stress yet. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, I'll keep the stress in mind. I don't do well with it lol. However, I felt pretty comfortable with waiting for my MCAT test as well, since all I needed was slightly above average.
 
gottagofast said:
They are in their 40-50s. One is in primary care and the other is a trauma surgeon. My psychiatrist (who I did not shadow) also shared her stories. It's not fair for you to invalidate their experiences based on your wife's anecdotes. There are also numerous recent op-eds online, which I can link. Women absolutely face negative bias in medicine. Some may be lucky enough to never experience it, like your wife, but that does not mean it doesn't exist. This is mimicking the argument about racism not existing and diverging from my post topic.
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We are going in circles about this and since you strongly feel about it let’s not discuss further.
So it appears you joined combined program under parental pressure and took MCAT due to program requirements. You also don’t have enough clinical hours due to COVID and you have questions about age. Given all that my new recommendation is you probably take one or two gap years, get required ECs, prepare for MCAP well and score above 515 and apply broadly. However will your parents support this?
 
DNAJB6 said:
That's pretty much the end for DOs getting in top to upper mid tier residencies no?
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This is been discussed to death in other forms, and the answer is no it is not. Program directors was simply use Step 2
 
gottagofast said:
Yes, I fully anticipate the possibility of me changing my mind. However, I don't have the same experience with the admission cycle as you have, I guess. Maybe that's why I haven't considered stress yet. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, I'll keep the stress in mind. I don't do well with it lol. However, I felt pretty comfortable with waiting for my MCAT test as well, since all I needed was slightly above average.
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I'd have to agree with this -- the admissions cycle can bring about an anxiety and neuroticism that can get intense if you don't have good distractions. This is where there the "exploring things you love" really comes in handy. I've found that having a couple of weekly volunteer gigs is both really fulfilling and cool to talk about in secondary essays. In addition to my reasons listed above, benefits to a gap year include having the time and mental space to put together an application that you can submit as early as humanly possible.

If you choose to stick with the BS/DO, I assume LORs are built in and guaranteed, which is a big sigh of relief. Finding new LORs (particularly if the MD programs you apply to require a certain number from faculty) may be challenging. If you choose to drop the DO spot in favor of applying MD, I'd make sure you have the time to put together a well-rounded application and secure your letters well ahead of time.
 
coolsands155 said:
But now DOs have one shot at getting it "right". My DO friends were scoring 230-235s on NBMEs but got low 210s high 210s. They did slightly better on Step 2 but not much. With only CK/level 2 now, students only get one shot and messing up is a death sentence for DOs while MDs are cut some slack.
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No, just no.
 
gottagofast said:
This is so valid, thank you. I've always been open to a gap year considering I'm already a year younger and the program just pushes me further ahead. The idea of BS --> DO --> Residency --> Fellowship with no breaks is terrifying, but it's what my classmates are doing and I guess I still feel obligated to do the same. More life experience would be great.

Thank you. I was honestly baffled that he continued to deny the existence of gender discrimination in medicine.
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@EdgeTrimmer stated his opinion based on the feedback he got from his wife, who is a woman. He didn't arrive at his opinion alone.

You were exposed more than once to the feedback YOU got from the community you happened to be in contact with, which convinced you this must be the case for the rest of the USA. It could be true. But your outrage at someone disagreeing with you doesn't mean = the outraged person must be right. Using someone's (@EdgeTrimmer 's) gender to undermine their position is problematic as well.

As for whether or not you should drop the DO acceptance, there's no right answer because values differ. Some peeps may value getting through schooling asap, get into the workforce and make money. Some want to take it a little slower. But there is the added uncertainty of being in the general applicant pool; will you score above 510 on the next MCAT form? will you interview well if you get invited?
 
TikiTorches said:
What's orm? What mcat is competitive for caucasian female?
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Over Represented in Medicine (Caucasian and most Asians ). With average ECs I would say 3.7 GPA and 90th percentile MCAT.
 
DNAJB6 said:
Employers, committees deciding tenure or promotion, etc., might. There is definitely bias even among attending physicians. One (I believe an admin) even conceded in a thread here a few years back that he would be weary of referring his family members to a DO unless vetted by an academic medical center. There is also regional variation.
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Yes about the first part if you want to go into academics. No about the last part. The weariness of sending their family members to a DO lol. You may get that on a very small amount (maybe hundreds out of the US population) but you will also get patients that won’t see an MD because they think DOs are more holistic/not pill pushers. I don’t want either one of those in my practice. Also, with today’s climate people are just happy to be seen by a residency trained and board certified physician. People are tired of having the same copay cost to see a midlevel (different discussion and really not trying to go down that rabbit hole).

gottagofast said:
That's the other thing. If I go the BS/DO route, I'll be a 24 yo female doctor. I am wary that people will not take me seriously due to my age and gender, especially with a DO behind my name instead of the more well-known MD. Like I hate the idea of constantly correcting people, no, I'm not a nurse nor unqualified -- I'm a doctor. Every single time. The attitude of the public toward Trump's DO physician was also not great to see.
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I’m in one of the most female dominated specialties, peds. Both the MD and DO physicians get called nurse equally. They just correct them and go on their way. It’s really not worth letting those thoughts take real estate in your brain.

gottagofast said:
Again, my gender is the bigger issue -- I'm just concerned my age, degree, race, etc. may add more reason for patients to distrust me. I've already been told on here that at 19, I am too immature to start medical school. Not to mention isn't the average age of a new doctor 28?
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Degree won’t matter. It won’t play into it. If people distrust you over your degree then being a white male won’t change that. But like I’ve said that will be hundreds of patients in the entire US population and believe me you don’t want those people in your practice. You will have plenty of patients regardless. If it’s over your gender then being a MD won’t fix that. And for age... residency will fix that. The bags under your eyes and graying hair will fix that lol
 
EdgeTrimmer said:
Over Represented in Medicine (Caucasian and most Asians ). With average ECs I would say 3.7 GPA and 90th percentile MCAT.
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ORM does not include Caucasians.

You do no need a 513-514 MCAT to be competitive as a Caucasian female with average ECs.
 
DO2015CA said:
Degree won’t matter. It won’t play into it. If people distrust you over your degree then being a white male won’t change that. But like I’ve said that will be hundreds of patients in the entire US population and believe me you don’t want those people in your practice. You will have plenty of patients regardless. If it’s over your gender then being a MD won’t fix that. And for age... residency will fix that. The bags under your eyes and graying hair will fix that lol
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Agree, race, gender and age are not deterring factors to choose between DO and MD, the core issue for OP.
 
HopeP said:
Agree, race, gender and age are not deterring factors to choose between DO and MD, the core issue for OP.
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Agreed. The only good reason I can think of for OP to decline an invitation to a position of strength is that he/she is interested in surgery.

OP has a good chance of being readmitted to DO if MD apps don't work out, but at the possible loss of an invested of 1-2 years of time without returns. If I were the OP, I would just move forward and enter the medical school system.
 
Damson said:
Agreed. The only good reason I can think of for OP to decline an invitation to a position of strength is that he/she is interested in surgery.

OP has a good chance of being readmitted to DO if MD apps don't work out, but at the possible loss of an invested of 1-2 years of time without returns. If I were the OP, I would move forward and enter the medical school system.
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a wise man says risk is a cost you pay for an opportunity.
 
HopeP said:
a wise man says risk is a cost you pay for an opportunity.
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true. although in this case the opportunity held can confer OP the same outcome - matching surgery - granted he/she will have to work harder (COMLEX, OMM, score higher on both boards)
 
DO2015CA said:
I’m in one of the most female dominated specialties, peds. Both the MD and DO physicians get called nurse equally. They just correct them and go on their way. It’s really not worth letting those thoughts take real estate in your brain.
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Yes, my wife was also called as nurse few times during her pediatric residency but I think it was by parents not attendings and she wasn't bothered by that much.
 
EdgeTrimmer said:
Yes, my wife was also called as nurse few times during her pediatric residency but I think it was by parents not attendings and she wasn't bothered by that much.
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I don’t think an attending would do that though. Even another specialty. The peds surgeons, peds urologists, and peds ortho all can tell one of our residents from the nursing staff. We just carry ourselves differently. I may be mistaken. I was under the impression she meant the non-medical staff.
 
Haven’t read the whole thread but saw you are interested in surgery. What DO school is it and what state are you from?

I’m a DO applying to surgery right now and can answer questions about it if need be. You can PM me if you want.
 
AnatomyGrey12 said:
Haven’t read the whole thread but saw you are interested in surgery. What DO school is it and what state are you from?

I’m a DO applying to surgery right now and can answer questions about it if need be. You can PM me if you want.
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Thanks for the matching info (in your signature), gives lot of good info. I was wondering about Optho but realized it has it's own match and I see few DOs matching for that also.
 
EdgeTrimmer said:
Yes, my wife was also called as nurse few times during her pediatric residency but I think it was by parents not attendings and she wasn't bothered by that much.
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So has my wife. Medicine is a field where you are most judged by your merits and abilities. Sure, some elitists may judge you by school, degree, gender, etc. Oprah has said that excellence is the greatest deterrent to prejudice that exists. I agree. Being excellent at what you do overcomes all of these issues, and in reality, is the only thing that matters to me as a patient or who I choose to care for my family and friends. My wife has worked in 2 large groups. When I have met her associates socially, they are quick to tell me she is the best " fill in the blank", they know. Isn't this what we all strive for? Excellent physicians who are secure in their craft aren't bothered by these unintentional slights. I think OPs concerns are mostly based on being 19 and possibly shadowing insecure people. I will change my advice to her. If OP is unable to handle explaining just what a DO is to family, friends, and patients, maybe a gap year would be in order.
 
EdgeTrimmer said:
That was my revised advice too, but I doubt parents will go along with it.
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Fascinating observation from a parent, when the whole reason OP finds herself in this situation is the over involvement of her parents. So I guess your kid's parents are just better at this than hers??? :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Maybe ALL the parents should find another hobby and let their kids grow up, mature, make their own mistakes and live their own lives!!!
 
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