Should I transfer from Windsor to AUA?

[Malassezia FurFur]

Hey everyone,

I have been going to a Caribbean medical school called Windsor U SOM for some time now. I recently got accepted to American University of Antigua (AUA), another Caribbean medical school to finish my clinical clerkships.

Should I transfer?

Windsor's Pro's and Con's:
Pro's: economical approx... 8500 per 12 weeks for clinical rotations
Con's: does not have NY and CA approval. Therefore graduates are limited when it comes to applying for residencies.

AUAs Pro's and Con's:
Pro's: Has NY and CA approval.
Has more successful students????
Con's: Over 18,000 per 16 weeks.
ALSO, THEY ACCEPTED ME FOR THE BEGINNING OF THE CLINICAL PROGRAM. THAT MEANS I WOULD HAVE TO REPEAT 3 CLERKSHIPS ALREADY COMPLETED. WHICH WOULD MEAN I WASTED 6 MONTHS OF MY LIFE AND OVER 17000 DOLLARS.

Given the above circumstances and list of pro's and con's, Would you transfer if you were in my position? If anyone that is an AUA graduate or current clinical student, please let me know your experience (I realize it would be anecdotal) with the clinical clerkships and requirements.

Thank you in advance for your response! Please advice!

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[Taddy Mason]

A number of states follow Cali and NY guidelines, so those wouldn't be the only states you'd be barred from practicing in if you stay at Windsor.

 

[Malassezia FurFur]

A number of states follow Cali and NY guidelines, so those wouldn't be the only states you'd be barred from practicing in if you stay at Windsor.

thats absolutely correct. States like MT, AZ, UT and more I can't remember follow CA approval. I think the consortium is called WAMI right? Any advice if I should transfer? Do you think getting reign to apply to all states justify staying back a semester and spending more on tuition?

 

[MusicDOc124]

Never heard of where you are, but at least heard of AUA. You say a wasted 17k and 6 months... if you don't transfer, then you'll have wasted much more of both.

 

[Malassezia FurFur]

Never heard of where you are, but at least heard of AUA. You say a wasted 17k and 6 months... if you don't transfer, then you'll have wasted much more of both.

sorry should have been more clear. I don't have to transfer from Windsor, I didnt get kicked out or have bad feelings with the school, its a great school especially for the price tag however b/c students are currently limited to certain states for residencies, I wanted to improve my odds and transfer to a better Caribbean school. I guess my question is? Is the price difference worth it if the student gets freedom to apply to all states?

 

[Taddy Mason]

thats absolutely correct. States like MT, AZ, UT and more I can't remember follow CA approval. I think the consortium is called WAMI right? Any advice if I should transfer? Do you think getting reign to apply to all states justify staying back a semester and spending more on tuition?

WAMII is something completely different. If you want a slim chance of matching in the US for residency rather than a pipe dream, then yes, transfer.

 

[MusicDOc124]

sorry should have been more clear. I don't have to transfer from Windsor, I didnt get kicked out or have bad feelings with the school, its a great school especially for the price tag however b/c students are currently limited to certain states for residencies, I wanted to improve my odds and transfer to a better Caribbean school. I guess my question is? Is the price difference worth it if the student gets freedom to apply to all states?

Yes, transfer. Your chances are already limited (somewhat) by default. Add onto that more limitations on top of the merger - Not as great outlook as it used to be.

 

[W19]

You should definitely transfer...

 

[Rekt]

What's your Step 1?

 

[username456789]

What's your Step 1?

Step 1 for him is transfer immediately.

 

[MusicDOc124]

Step 2 is to take Step 1 then? lol

 

[hello1234!]

The most important question is what is your current school's match rate for students with similar step scores to you vs AUA's match rate??? 17,000 bucks is nothing compared to not matching. Make your decision based on your matching probability.

 

[hello1234!]

Are you 100% sure you can get a medical license from AUA in CA. I did residency and live in CA, and I could be completely wrong, but I thought you couldn't get a CA medical license if you went to AUA ..

EDIT .. I just looked it up on the medical board of CA website, all graduates from the Antigua campus only (I guess there is more than one campus) from AUA who matriculated after 2007 can get a CA license.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

You should also carefully review whether having 2 years at Windsor followed by 2 years at AUA makes you Cali eligible. You'll need to report those 2 windsor years, and sometimes any time at an unapproved school will negate your chances of a license there. I say this without knowing the details, so perhaps it's OK. But I'd check very carefully.

 

[Super66]

The most important question is what is your current school's match rate for students with similar step scores to you vs AUA's match rate??? 17,000 bucks is nothing compared to not matching. Make your decision based on your matching probability.

This is the answer to your question. All these other people chirping in "transfer" are basing that response on zero data. Find out what percentage of Windsor graduates successfully match at US residency programs. Better yet, obtain lists for the past 10 years that state exactly where these people matched. Then, if possible, obtain the same information from AUA. Compare. Base your decision on reality and not conjecture. And of course follow up on what aProgDirector mentioned. Best of luck.

 

[DrDarce]

This is the answer to your question. All these other people chirping in "transfer" are basing that response on zero data. Find out what percentage of Windsor graduates successfully match at US residency programs. Better yet, obtain lists for the past 10 years that state exactly where these people matched. Then, if possible, obtain the same information from AUA. Compare. Base your decision on reality and not conjecture. And of course follow up on what aProgDirector mentioned. Best of luck.

Well people are saying transfer because in AUA the OP would be eligible to practice in all 50 states while at Windsor that is not the case.

 

[neoevolution]

Does the medical school matter after residency? As in, could he still practice in CA after doing a TX residency from Windsor?

 

[hello1234!]

Does the medical school matter after residency? As in, could he still practice in CA after doing a TX residency from Windsor?

Yes, med school matters. Graduates from Windsor cannot become lisenced in CA, period. (And probably not Texas either)

 

[sammiesings]

This situation is exactly why I'll never understand why people go to the Caribbean.... I feel for you OP, but I don't think going to aua now will open residency doors for you. I think apd is correct, if you did your pre clinical years at an unapproved school, you can never be licensed in ca/NY etc.

 

[caffeinemia]

The numbers flying around in this thread are absolutely astounding! How! I didn't have 1700, much less 17000 to my name at your stage in the game!

 

[cellsaver]

Hey everyone,

[...]
Would you transfer if you were in my position?

If your Step 1 Score is well above the national mean (229, I believe), you should stay at Windsor. A 260 on Step 1 while attending Margaritaville SOM is far more impressive than a 210 from XYZ SOM in USA.

Your Step 1 Score is a formidable factor. You didn't state your Step 1 score, some have asked you, so I will presume it is around or below the national mean. If that is the case, attending Windsor is not going to help you but perhaps AUA alliances in CONUS (e.g. FIU in Miami) will with matching.

California? Are they still part of the USA?

 

[cellsaver]

Does the medical school matter after residency? As in, could he still practice in CA after doing a TX residency from Windsor?

Nope. It does not matter. As long as you get licensed in the state you wish to practice/live, you are the only one who is going to reflect on the school's name. No one ever asks and nor should you once you match.

 

[username456789]

Nope. It does not matter. As long as you get licensed in the state you wish to practice/live, you are the only one who is going to reflect on the school's name. No one ever asks and nor should you once you match.

Hardly a day goes by that at least one of my patients doesn't ask "so where did you go to medical school?" Usually they are just curious/making conversation.

My bio is on my practice's website so they get that info there as well.

Just food for thought. I realize the original question was more in reference to "does the school I went to limit where I can practice."

 

[Taddy Mason]

If your Step 1 Score is well above the national mean (229, I believe), you should stay at Windsor. A 260 on Step 1 while attending Margaritaville SOM is far more impressive than a 210 from XYZ SOM in USA

Nope. It does not matter. As long as you get licensed in the state you wish to practice/live, you are the only one who is going to reflect on the school's name. No one ever asks and nor should you once you match.

OP would be barred from getting a license in a number of states, which in addition to coming from a no name Carib school would only further limit his/her already limited odds of matching and obtaining a license in the US. So yes, school name matters. OP is better off in the long run, so long as the 2 years at Windsor don't make him ineligible from getting a license in states that don't recognize Windsor, if he sucks up the cost difference and transfers.

 

[cellsaver]

OP would be barred from getting a license in a number of states...

LOL, like some of those that voted for Hillary, right? California, NY and those other "immigrant loving" states?
Please.....unless if you're gunning to be a physician in California (why, I wouldn't know given the mess in California, the price of real estate and the upcoming economic downturn), this is really a non-issue.

which in addition to coming from a no name Carib school

like the no name schools in the USA? As if all MD schools in the USA/LCME list are "name dropping" schools. Seriously? Let's start with Puerto Rico, Georgia, Mississippi, Virginia, Tennessee and, Kansas, Louisiana, et al. Yet those graduates do just fine professionally in the long run.

A thread already exists on low tiers schools on SDN.

An IMG with a 250+ Step 1 dwarfs an LCME MD student below the mean of 229 which is, as you know, half of LCME MD students!

So yes, school name matters.

Quite a few Department Chairs in hospitals in the USA graduated from Ross, SGU, Peru, Argentina, Germany and other places that most Americans can't locate on a map. Get real.

OP, do your best. Get into a Residency Program and you'll be fine. If you have any doubts about IMGs, check out the most recent edition of NEJM. It is chock full of data like this tidbit:

"In 2016, more than 50% of the 7024 internal medicine positions in the U.S. residency match were filled by international medical graduates." NEJM, Feb 1, 2017

Any half wit paying attention to the political firestorm in DC thanks to Dtrump's Executive Order, is well aware of the outcry by medical academic leaders with the EO prohibiting Muslim IMG Physicians including Muslims precisely because of the great diversity of values they bring with them.

Trump’s Executive Order on Immigration — Detrimental Effects on Medical Training and Health Care
Ahmad Masri, M.D., and Mourad H. Senussi, M.D.
February 1, 2017DOI: 10.1056/NEJMp1701251


International Exchange and American Medicine
Katrina Armstrong, M.D., Mark E. Anderson, M.D., Ph.D., John M. Carethers, M.D., Joseph Loscalzo, M.D., Ph.D., Michael S. Parmacek, M.D., Robert M. Wachter, M.D., and Mark L. Zeidel, M.D.
February 1, 2017DOI: 10.1056/NEJMp1701339

Additionally, take a look at the 2015 ECFMG Report

Bienvenidos a los Estados Unidos, Doctor!
مرحبا بكم في أمريكا، طبيب
marhabaan bikum fi 'amrika, tabib

 

[cellsaver]

.

 

[PossibleDOC?]

A friend of mine graduated from a LCME no name school. She owes > $250K.

She matched for a Residency Program but alas her Step 1 & Step 2 CK scores were below the mean, and she got pushed into a specialty she did not want. Yet, some of her classmates scored above the national mean, and got exactly what they wanted for specialties regardless of the no name status of the MD LCME school

Shoot for the stars, OP. Don't let Americans push you to thinking an IMG can't compete

Just out of curiosity, what were your friends hoping for in regards to the residency? Internal?

 

[caffeinemia]

A friend of mine graduated from a LCME no name school. She owes > $250K.

She matched for a Residency Program but alas her Step 1 & Step 2 CK scores were below the mean, and she got pushed into a specialty she did not want. Yet, some of her classmates scored above the national mean, and got exactly what they wanted for specialties regardless of the no name status of the MD LCME school

Shoot for the stars, OP. Don't let Americans push you to thinking an IMG can't compete

I'm not sure why you quoted my post --- but okay. Glad your tangential thinking is going strong there...

 

[Taddy Mason]

LOL, like some of those that voted for Hillary, right? California, NY and those other "immigrant loving" states?
Please.....unless if you're gunning to be a physician in California (why, I wouldn't know given the mess in California, the price of real estate and the upcoming economic downturn), this is really a non-issue.



like the no name schools in the USA? As if all MD schools in the USA/LCME list are "name dropping" schools. Seriously? Let's start with Puerto Rico, Georgia, Mississippi, Virginia, Tennessee and, Kansas, Louisiana, et al. Yet those graduates do just fine professionally in the long run.

A thread already exists on low tiers schools on SDN.

An IMG with a 250+ Step 1 dwarfs an LCME MD student below the mean of 229 which is, as you know, half of LCME MD students!



Quite a few Department Chairs in hospitals in the USA graduated from Ross, SGU, Peru, Argentina, Germany and other places that most Americans can't locate on a map. Get real.

OP, do your best. Get into a Residency Program and you'll be fine. If you have any doubts about IMGs, check out the most recent edition of NEJM. It is chock full of data like this tidbit:

"In 2016, more than 50% of the 7024 internal medicine positions in the U.S. residency match were filled by international medical graduates." NEJM, Feb 1, 2017

Any half wit paying attention to the political firestorm in DC thanks to Dtrump's Executive Order, is well aware of the outcry by medical academic leaders with the EO prohibiting Muslim IMG Physicians including Muslims precisely because of the great diversity of values they bring with them.

Trump’s Executive Order on Immigration — Detrimental Effects on Medical Training and Health Care
Ahmad Masri, M.D., and Mourad H. Senussi, M.D.
February 1, 2017DOI: 10.1056/NEJMp1701251


International Exchange and American Medicine
Katrina Armstrong, M.D., Mark E. Anderson, M.D., Ph.D., John M. Carethers, M.D., Joseph Loscalzo, M.D., Ph.D., Michael S. Parmacek, M.D., Robert M. Wachter, M.D., and Mark L. Zeidel, M.D.
February 1, 2017DOI: 10.1056/NEJMp1701339

Additionally, take a look at the 2015 ECFMG Report

Bienvenidos a los Estados Unidos, Doctor!
مرحبا بكم في أمريكا، طبيب
marhabaan bikum fi 'amrika, tabib

Not sure if you're being intentionally obtuse to troll, but if not please re-read posts 2, 14, 16, and 18 of this thread.

A number of states follow Cali and NY guidelines, so those wouldn't be the only states you'd be barred from practicing in if you stay at Windsor.

You should also carefully review whether having 2 years at Windsor followed by 2 years at AUA makes you Cali eligible. You'll need to report those 2 windsor years, and sometimes any time at an unapproved school will negate your chances of a license there. I say this without knowing the details, so perhaps it's OK. But I'd check very carefully.

Well people are saying transfer because in AUA the OP would be eligible to practice in all 50 states while at Windsor that is not the case.

Yes, med school matters. Graduates from Windsor cannot become lisenced in CA, period. (And probably not Texas either)

 

[the argus]

A 260 on Step 1 while attending Margaritaville SOM is far more impressive than a 210 from XYZ SOM in USA.

An IMG with a 250+ Step 1 dwarfs an LCME MD student below the mean of 229 which is, as you know, half of LCME MD students!

I try to be one of the more realistic people on SDN when it comes to residency outcomes for Caribbean grads. There's a ton of misinformation thrown around.

That said, what you are saying is just pure nonsense. A USMD grad from any LCME school with a 210 on step 1 has infinitely more possibilities available than a Caribbean grad with a 250. This isn't even worth debating.

Yes, there are plenty of residency positions available for Caribbean grads. And yes, there are Caribbean grads who have become department chairs, PDs, and DIOs. That doesn't change the fact that attending a USMD school automatically places you as a higher tier applicant when applying for residency, regardless of Step scores. This obviously doesn't hold true for every program in every specialty, but overall this is absolutely the general trend.

The Caribbean remains a viable path for thousands of people every year. Doesn't mean we shouldn't be realistic when discussing outcomes.

 

[W19]

I try to be one of the more realistic people on SDN when it comes to residency outcomes for Caribbean grads. There's a ton of misinformation thrown around.

That said, what you are saying is just pure nonsense. A USMD grad from any LCME school with a 210 on step 1 has infinitely more possibilities available than a Caribbean grad with a 250. This isn't even worth debating.

Yes, there are plenty of residency positions available for Caribbean grads. And yes, there are Caribbean grads who have become department chairs, PDs, and DIOs. That doesn't change the fact that attending a USMD school automatically places you as a higher tier applicant when applying for residency, regardless of Step scores. This obviously doesn't hold true for every program in every specialty, but overall this is absolutely the general trend.

The Caribbean remains a viable path for thousands of people every year. Doesn't mean we shouldn't be realistic when discussing outcomes.

Disagree... And it's worth debating. A student from the big 4 with 250 on step1 is on a higher ground than students from Howard/Meharry/PR schools who score <220 IMO when it comes to residency.

 

[Mikkus]

Being one of these Carib grads you speak of makes me shake my head at this. Where are you getting this information from? I have never met a residency director who would rather have a good Carib grad than a middle of the road US MD.
If residency pds were to follow this line of thinking their program would tank fast, as most look at how many fmgs are at a program to gauge its strength.
Middle of the road do vs good Carib yes. Us Md with multiple step failures vs Carib yes. Middle of the road md vs Carib. No way.

Personally, I would transfer if I was able to gain the ability to practice in any state. Not being able to complete residency in ny knocks out a ton of img friendly places.

Disagree... And it's worth debating. A student from the big 4 with 250 on step1 is on a higher ground than students from Howard/Meharry/PR schools who score <220 IMO when it comes to residency.

 

[NotAProgDirector]

Let's try to not turn this thread into an IMG vs USMG flail, shall we? Programs and PD's will differ on their preferences. Although I think the truth is much closer to the argus than cellsaver.

In any case, back to the OP's initial question about transferring. From http://www.mbc.ca.gov/Applicants/Medical_Schools/Schools_Recognized.aspx

To be eligible for a Postgraduate Training Authorization Letter (PTAL) or Physician’s and Surgeon’s license, applicants must have received all of their medical school education from and graduated from a medical school recognized or approved by the Medical Board of California (with the exception listed below). The medical school’s name must exactly match the name on the Board’s list of recognized medical schools.

Per this statement, transferring from a non-approved to an approved school will not help you in Cali licensing.

 

[caffeinemia]

Let's try to not turn this thread into an IMG vs USMG flail, shall we? Programs and PD's will differ on their preferences. Although I think the truth is much closer to the argus than cellsaver.

In any case, back to the OP's initial question about transferring. From http://www.mbc.ca.gov/Applicants/Medical_Schools/Schools_Recognized.aspx


Per this statement, transferring from a non-approved to an approved school will not help you in Cali licensing.

A REASONABLE (WO)MAN at last!

 

[PossibleDOC?]

Mikkus is the most accurate when describing the carib grad life. He/she apparently has gone through the ringer and got through it (props to them) the argus is realistic but they also seem to be in a bit of a fantasy too when it comes to residency. He/she feels that once you get your step score and if its good the world is yours, Mikkus is realistic in that even a good step score doesn't guarantee a residency. I would trust Mikkus over anyone because honestly they appear to be the most realistic in terms of what to expect. My though is the argus is a very lucky person who tested very well. Mikkus is the med student you will probably be, don't bet on the luck and skill of others OP you only know yourself best and know what you're capable of.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Disagree... And it's worth debating. A student from the big 4 with 250 on step1 is on a higher ground than students from Howard/Meharry/PR schools who score <220 IMO when it comes to residency.

No. Even I know how to read the charting outcomes.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Disagree... And it's worth debating. A student from the big 4 with 250 on step1 is on a higher ground than students from Howard/Meharry/PR schools who score <220 IMO when it comes to residency.

I would disagree with you.

The programs that would match an IMG to begin with are at best ones that 210 US MD would apply to as backup. Why would anyone take the IMG? Sure their step 1 is good, but the quality of clerkships are inferior to those provided by Howard/Meharry/PR. These program benefit more by being attractive to US MD students than IMG.

 

[cellsaver]

.

 

[xffan624]

240 in 2007 was not 99th percentile.

Source: someone with a >250 in 2008

In addition to the sketchy percentile calculation, they also failed to mention that the bloggist in question transferred to Drexel in years 3-4. That changes the landscape a bit.

 

[Malassezia FurFur]

What's your Step 1?

sorry for replying late. It wasn't great at all. I got a 220. I am hoping to do better on CK.

 

[Malassezia FurFur]

You should also carefully review whether having 2 years at Windsor followed by 2 years at AUA makes you Cali eligible. You'll need to report those 2 windsor years, and sometimes any time at an unapproved school will negate your chances of a license there. I say this without knowing the details, so perhaps it's OK. But I'd check very carefully.

Sorry for replying late. I have heard back from Cali. I am NOT ELIGIBLE CA residencies even if I transfer to AUA. They said, "All schooling must be completed at an approved school(s)."

I heard back from NY as well. They wrote that as long as my last year is within an approved school (like AUA), I am eligible to apply for NY residencies.

 

[Malassezia FurFur]

Yes, transfer. Your chances are already limited (somewhat) by default. Add onto that more limitations on top of the merger - Not as great outlook as it used to be.

The merger was between AUC and ROSS, I believe. NOT AUA.

 

[Malassezia FurFur]

Step 1 for him is transfer immediately.

Sorry for the late reply... but I am lost. I don't get it?

 

[libertyyne]

The merger was between AUC and ROSS, I believe. NOT AUA.

The poster was talking about the merger between AOA and acgme which opens up residencies to DO students increasing difficulty for carribean graduates.

 

[Malassezia FurFur]

This is the answer to your question. All these other people chirping in "transfer" are basing that response on zero data. Find out what percentage of Windsor graduates successfully match at US residency programs. Better yet, obtain lists for the past 10 years that state exactly where these people matched. Then, if possible, obtain the same information from AUA. Compare. Base your decision on reality and not conjecture. And of course follow up on what aProgDirector mentioned. Best of luck.

Thank you so much. SOLID ADVICE! I did, rather, I TRIED to do just that. Windsor did supply me with a list but it has no dates on it and some of the institutions mentioned can not be confirmed by google. AUA said it is on the website which it is for the past couple of years. However, no credible data from either institution was given to me after repeated attempts to get it. It would be nice if one of the schools or both told me the number of students that applied vs. the number of students that successfully matched on an annual basis. But I am still waiting for that info... sigh

 

[Malassezia FurFur]

The poster was talking about the merger between AOA and acgme which opens up residencies to DO students increasing difficulty for carribean graduates.

AHH! MY bad. I Misunderstood. When does the AOA and ACGME merger go in effect?

 

[Malassezia FurFur]

If your Step 1 Score is well above the national mean (229, I believe), you should stay at Windsor. A 260 on Step 1 while attending Margaritaville SOM is far more impressive than a 210 from XYZ SOM in USA.

Your Step 1 Score is a formidable factor. You didn't state your Step 1 score, some have asked you, so I will presume it is around or below the national mean. If that is the case, attending Windsor is not going to help you but perhaps AUA alliances in CONUS (e.g. FIU in Miami) will with matching.

California? Are they still part of the USA?

Sorry for the late reply, had the IM shelf exam. My step 1 score is below the National Mean. 220, 1st try. I know, its pitiful. But what can I do.

 

[Malassezia FurFur]

Let's try to not turn this thread into an IMG vs USMG flail, shall we? Programs and PD's will differ on their preferences. Although I think the truth is much closer to the argus than cellsaver.

In any case, back to the OP's initial question about transferring. From http://www.mbc.ca.gov/Applicants/Medical_Schools/Schools_Recognized.aspx


Per this statement, transferring from a non-approved to an approved school will not help you in Cali licensing.

Sorry for the late reply, but that is CORRECT

 

[ScottTenorman54]

Quick tip to help you out in the future - if you click on the "quote" button on the right of each post that you want to reply to, you can then use the "insert quotes" button below the text box for replies to insert them and reply to them one by one.

Thank you so much. SOLID ADVICE! I did, rather, I TRIED to do just that. Windsor did supply me with a list but it has no dates on it and some of the institutions mentioned can not be confirmed by google. AUA said it is on the website which it is for the past couple of years. However, no credible data from either institution was given to me after repeated attempts to get it. It would be nice if one of the schools or both told me the number of students that applied vs. the number of students that successfully matched on an annual basis. But I am still waiting for that info... sigh

AHH! MY bad. I Misunderstood. When does the AOA and ACGME merger go in effect?

kinda

Sorry for the late reply, had the IM shelf exam. My step 1 score is below the National Mean. 220, 1st try. I know, its pitiful. But what can I do.

like

Sorry for the late reply, but that is CORRECT

this

Hope I made sense!

 

[Goro]

In looking at the OP's thread title, this comes to mind: