Should NP Programs be More Selective / Increasing Prestige for Mid-Level Providers

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So what do you see as the differences between attending a current 3 yr vs 4 yr MD program? Are grads of 3 year programs lesser physicians?
I can only speak to my own education.

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So what do you see as the differences between attending a current 3 yr vs 4 yr MD program? Are grads of 3 year programs lesser physicians?
Physicians like to thump their chest about going to school for x amount of years when in reality 3+ yrs can be cut from our education while yielding the same product.

You can 'produce' good FM/IM/EM etc... in 8 yrs (2 yrs prereqs, 3 yrs med school and 3 yrs residency)
 
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So what do you see as the differences between attending a current 3 yr vs 4 yr MD program? Are grads of 3 year programs lesser physicians?
I didn’t explore every single link but I looked at the penn state ones since the link is right there. It’s similar to other programs I’ve looked into before.

These programs are probably harder than the current 4 year med school. They still make you pass all the step exams, which require an in depth knowledge of the basic sciences you disparage in an earlier post. But they take away all of your vacation time and rotation elective time. You literally grind non stop for three years. They also funnel you into their residency programs which eliminates the fourth year, auditions at residency programs, and all the travel that goes with applying to residency.

I’m not sure this is the “gotcha!” you were going for. Zero basic science education is excluded. These programs make the case that you can skip the fluff of fourth year, which I would agree as it seems like mostly a tuition grab by schools to pretend they do something while we go on interviews.
 
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I agree that MS4 is a scam. Wasn't going for a gotcha. I was asking an honest question.
There is certainly an amount of foundational/basic medical sciences one needs to practice medicine. I am not arguing that point.
The debate is what is enough vs what is more than enough/not needed for the vast majority of medical specialties. Perhaps tracking folks earlier might help. If you want radonc you need this, if you want family medicine you need this, etc.
 
I agree that MS4 is a scam. Wasn't going for a gotcha. I was asking an honest question.
There is certainly an amount of foundational/basic medical sciences one needs to practice medicine. I am not arguing that point.
The debate is what is enough vs what is more than enough/not needed for the vast majority of medical specialties. Perhaps tracking folks earlier might help. If you want radonc you need this, if you want family medicine you need this, etc.
There’s rare exceptions where this is overkill. But the vast majority of specialties build on this foundation. Some specialties use some areas more than others. But the majority of med students change their minds about what they want to practice. So you need a strong foundation in all of the basic sciences.

I.e, I really don’t care if my EM doc knows the majority of biochem. But a pediatrician needs to know tons of biochem and recognize the clinical presentations of inborn errors of metabolism. The vast majority of us don’t need to know much about cell bio. But it sure would suck to start path residency without knowing that stuff would be a part of it. Despite how easy it looks to the uninformed, dermatologists use A LOT of the basic sciences, etc.
 
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The vast majority of us don’t need to know much about cell bio. But it sure would suck to start path residency without knowing that stuff would be a part of it.
So couldn't intensive cell bio be part of the PGY-1 year in a pathology residency? I am not saying do away with it in med school, but maybe decrease it by 40%, etc The folks who really need it take the advanced coursework as they learn their specialty in residency. Just spitballing ways to produce competent physicians without memorization of stuff they will forget as soon as they complete their usmle steps. My dad was a well-known neurologist. He forgot much of the stuff he didn't need to practice neurology. I imagine that is true for most physicians. How many orthopedists 5 years into practice remember anything about pediatric vaccination schedules for example?
 
So couldn't intensive cell bio be part of the PGY-1 year in a pathology residency? I am not saying do away with it in med school, but maybe decrease it by 40%, etc The folks who really need it take the advanced coursework as they learn their specialty in residency. Just spitballing ways to produce competent physicians without memorization of stuff they will forget as soon as they complete their usmle steps. My dad was a well-known neurologist. He forgot much of the stuff he didn't need to practice neurology. I imagine that is true for most physicians. How many orthopedists 5 years into practice remember anything about pediatric vaccination schedules for example?
That’s the thing though. There’s no time for this. You have to shake the cobwebs off of that part of your brain because you need to apply it ASAP. None of us are in residency thinking we should be studying even more than we already have to. Believe it or not, there’s still more basic science to learn in residency in any field. The vast majority of us found neuro extremely painful and couldn’t wait to purge that info. But I bet your dad wouldn’t have had a good time with only half the neuro foundation that he had going in. The points made in this paragraph don’t even address the fact that without this exposure to this information, our choice of specialty would be even less informed than it already is. Because as I’ve already discussed, you have to know this info as that type of specialist and then go way beyond.

Keep in mind, I’m going into rads. I’m not going to use like hardly any pharmacology. But cutting pharm in half and expecting students to just study it more in depth later to accommodate me and people going into fields with a very limited pharmacology use would be a disaster for the majority of residents.

Edit: I could never memorize that stupid vaccine schedule lol
 
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That’s the thing though. There’s no time for this. You have to shake the cobwebs off of that part of your brain because you need to apply it ASAP. None of us are in residency thinking we should be studying even more than we already have to. Believe it or not, there’s still more basic science to learn in residency in any field. The vast majority of us found neuro extremely painful and couldn’t wait to purge that info. But I bet your dad wouldn’t have had a good time with only half the neuro foundation that he had going in. The points made in this paragraph don’t even address the fact that without this exposure to this information, our choice of specialty would be even less informed than it already is. Because as I’ve already discussed, you have to know this info as that type of specialist and then go way beyond.

Keep in mind, I’m going into rads. I’m not going to use like hardly any pharmacology. But cutting pharm in half and expecting students to just study it more in depth later to accommodate me and people going into fields with a very limited pharmacology use would be a disaster for the majority of residents.

Edit: I could never memorize that stupid vaccine schedule lol
Fair enough. Dad used to say specialists only need to know 50% of what they learn in medical school, but no one knows which 50% it will be.
 
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Fair enough. Dad used to say specialists only need to know 50% of what they learn in medical school, but no one knows which 50% it will be.
Btw, medical education definitely needs a reform. I just disagree with people that say it should be at the expense of big chunks of what we learn in the first two years.
 
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This is probably discussed somewhere else, but lately I've been at a crossroads in my career where I'm just sort of frustrated with my profession and the lack of respect we get from physicians. Unfortunately, I think a lot of that may be earned.

Case in point...

I am currently an FNP enrolled in a PMHNP program at a relatively prestigious university (US News has it top 5 in America). This is a post-master's certificate program that is only open to currently licensed, practicing NPs. I have no idea if this program is very selected because I did not ask anyone at the university about the admissions acceptance rate and this was the only program I applied to.

We just had our psychopharmacology midterm. A lot of my classmates were stressed out because this class is traditionally regarded as "hard" and the most difficult class in the program. As someone working multiple jobs I didn't have much time to put any effort into prep for this class and figured as a practicing NP I already know a lot of psychopharm even though I work in family practice. I watched the lectures (at 1.5 speed) and did little else. The exam was proctored via video. I suppose you could cheat, but I didn't want to figure out a way to do this so I took it the way we are supposed to. The exam was multiple choice (4 choices per question) and I ended up with an A on what I thought was a pretty simple exam.

Now that the exam is over I just looked at the class average was 79.4% with low of 32%. That low F is clearly pretty bad especially considering random guessing would yield 25%. The part that scares me is this isn't just some random person way over their heads. He/she is currently a practicing provider. What's even scarier, is I looked at our syllabus and assumed that this person gets a 32% on the final exam but completes all the other coursework with 100% (which is pretty likely since class average is 90-95%+ on these exercises). If this person does that they will just barely pass. But it gets worse - the instructor also offers extra credit which will provide further breathing room. Based on the way the course is graded, if you get 100% on all the fluff assignments and do the extra credit, you only need to score 19.3% on the exams to pass the course.

Obviously this is just one example, but this is quite appalling. Maybe med school is the same way and med students just like to hype how stressful everything is, but I can't imagine this is the case. If you score 32% on pharmacology tests in an online class, you should not be prescribing these medications. Period.

I realize there is a huge lack of providers in this country, but pumping out providers this way does not seem to be the solution. This system can't possibly sustain itself.
I actually had a FNP post-master's psych student in class who didn't believe mental illness was a real thing. My question was "so what are you doing here?" It's the lifestyle specialty. I don't think there's an actual lack of providers. What is lacking is the desire to work in/among the populations people don't desire to treat. I grew up in the suburbs. That's how I was socialized. That's where I want to live and work, and I suspect the majority of healthcare providers want to live how they know. If your dad was a country doctor maybe you'd like that to. I like having more options than a Dollar General. I also appreciate not having to pay to park somewhere and not having demonstrators block main thoroughfares.

Re: admissions. There's no standard across the board. Med/dent/etc school has "standards" going for them. Even when I went through a public U NP program (that I was later faculty at) I would say if you could pay the tuition, you could be a student. I think now they do some interviews and require the GRE or MAT. I don't know what the GPA requirements are, but I also "grew up" assuming most people that went to college all had good grades. Naive, eh? All of healthcare is a second career for me. I enjoy it, but I often regret it (60:40).

It seems the CRNA programs have historically been more robust, but now many of them are even becoming largely online. The DNP rather than adding value to advanced nursing turned into more of a millstone. Loss of time, money, and for those that know what a DNP is loss of prestige. I see a DNP and think "what a sucker." But I'd get one if I could do so at no financial cost and am convinced I could accomplish the majority of the work with limited distress. Why? Because someday when all the tadpoles have DNPs the old bullfrogs are going to be critiqued by young HR and kid doctors about not having one.

We have the three advanced P's of NP training - advanced physicals, advanced pharm, and advanced physio/patho. Frankly, they weren't advanced at all. Same I had in BSN training (one used same book) although we were expected to have more competency in those subjects. I bet we could poll NPs in advanced physio/patho and find most feel very weak in that category. IDK how PAs do. They seem somewhat more informed in the sciences, generally speaking, and the docs and dents clearly are (assuming they retain it post-graduation) although we understand that all humans have memory decay; "use or lose."

From a university perspective, there is ZERO incentive to make school admissions requirements more stringent or coursework more difficult. Law school and pharmacy school have already experienced this growth and over saturation. Within 30 minutes driving of my home there are three programs producing master's trained counselors, marriage/family therapists, social workers, and clinical psychologist. Expand the box another 60 minutes drive time and you can add 8 other therapist producing programs. Most master's trained therapists I've worked with have multiple jobs as new grads until they can establish enough clientele through longevity to reduce their hours and office space. NPs will be the same way. On top of this, insurance companies are reimbursing us reasonably well somewhere between 80-100% of what physicians make. From a financial standpoint, my MSN cost $12,000 (which it did), and if I made 80% of what physicians made it would take them a long time to catch up and then exceed me. I believe in the future we'll all get reimbursed the same particularly as medicine becomes more socialized and society becomes more liberalized. Obviously, telehealth is here to stay as well reducing the need for clinic time and expense. I was talking to a new NP who received over $80,000 in loan reimbursement from an employer and was glad to have it but lamented he still have over $50,000 left to pay. I almost spilled my drink! Why would any element of nursing EVER cost that much, and if it did why choose this career. I had a patient that was an elementary teacher with over a hundred grand in student loans and always stressed and depressed because of it and working after hours at CVS as a checker. Why would her college decrease the cost? It won't because the .gov will give you all the loaned money you want to go to school knowing they'll get it back with interest. This is the singular difficulty with healthcare costs. It's expensive to become someone who can sign prescriptions, it takes time, and you want to be reimbursed to assuage the lost time, added stress, and financial cost.

For most of nursing, a bedside nurse makes what? 40-60 grand/yr? A NP effectually twice that (if not more)? NPs don't want to be bedside nurses so some loan or debt is worthwhile to get away from that environment, but aspiring APRNs need to moderate their choices on career. Heathcare is increasingly not the luxurious profession it once was. Adding in the fact that graduate nursing programs want to throw in a bunch of arcane, trivial coursework to make themselves seem like an entirely separate body of knowledge. Who really cares about nursing theory? What kind of autism is required to do doctoral work in that field and teach it for a career? Community health let alone advanced community health? What was that even about? Multiple research methods courses that could more effectively be given as a series of seminars.... All of this obfuscates our clinical education the sole thing all of us became NPs to obtain and will be assessed, reimbursed, and judged by for the remainder of our work lives.

Much could be done to improve the profession, but I think we'll only see it become more dilute.
 
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my thoughts are similar. Current medical training is too outdated

This is their residency
I see the opposite. Most NPs are pissed because the clinical training was "lite" and see the DNP as vapid and shallow. I just did a post discussing this elsewhere on this thread. The initial training is an atrocity.
 
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I actually had a FNP post-master's psych student in class who didn't believe mental illness was a real thing. My question was "so what are you doing here?" It's the lifestyle specialty. I don't think there's an actual lack of providers. What is lacking is the desire to work in/among the populations people don't desire to treat. I grew up in the suburbs. That's how I was socialized. That's where I want to live and work, and I suspect the majority of healthcare providers want to live how they know. If your dad was a country doctor maybe you'd like that to. I like having more options than a Dollar General. I also appreciate not having to pay to park somewhere and not having demonstrators block main thoroughfares.

Re: admissions. There's no standard across the board. Med/dent/etc school has "standards" going for them. Even when I went through a public U NP program (that I was later faculty at) I would say if you could pay the tuition, you could be a student. I think now they do some interviews and require the GRE or MAT. I don't know what the GPA requirements are, but I also "grew up" assuming most people that went to college all had good grades. Naive, eh? All of healthcare is a second career for me. I enjoy it, but I often regret it (60:40).

It seems the CRNA programs have historically been more robust, but now many of them are even becoming largely online. The DNP rather than adding value to advanced nursing turned into more of a millstone. Loss of time, money, and for those that know what a DNP is loss of prestige. I see a DNP and think "what a sucker." But I'd get one if I could do so at no financial cost and am convinced I could accomplish the majority of the work with limited distress. Why? Because someday when all the tadpoles have DNPs the old bullfrogs are going to be critiqued by young HR and kid doctors about not having one.

We have the three advanced P's of NP training - advanced physicals, advanced pharm, and advanced physio/patho. Frankly, they weren't advanced at all. Same I had in BSN training (one used same book) although we were expected to have more competency in those subjects. I bet we could poll NPs in advanced physio/patho and find most feel very weak in that category. IDK how PAs do. They seem somewhat more informed in the sciences, generally speaking, and the docs and dents clearly are (assuming they retain it post-graduation) although we understand that all humans have memory decay; "use or lose."

From a university perspective, there is ZERO incentive to make school admissions requirements more stringent or coursework more difficult. Law school and pharmacy school have already experienced this growth and over saturation. Within 30 minutes driving of my home there are three programs producing master's trained counselors, marriage/family therapists, social workers, and clinical psychologist. Expand the box another 60 minutes drive time and you can add 8 other therapist producing programs. Most master's trained therapists I've worked with have multiple jobs as new grads until they can establish enough clientele through longevity to reduce their hours and office space. NPs will be the same way. On top of this, insurance companies are reimbursing us reasonably well somewhere between 80-100% of what physicians make. From a financial standpoint, my MSN cost $12,000 (which it did), and if I made 80% of what physicians made it would take them a long time to catch up and then exceed me. I believe in the future we'll all get reimbursed the same particularly as medicine becomes more socialized and society becomes more liberalized. Obviously, telehealth is here to stay as well reducing the need for clinic time and expense. I was talking to a new NP who received over $80,000 in loan reimbursement from an employer and was glad to have it but lamented he still have over $50,000 left to pay. I almost spilled my drink! Why would any element of nursing EVER cost that much, and if it did why choose this career. I had a patient that was an elementary teacher with over a hundred grand in student loans and always stressed and depressed because of it and working after hours at CVS as a checker. Why would her college decrease the cost? It won't because the .gov will give you all the loaned money you want to go to school knowing they'll get it back with interest. This is the singular difficulty with healthcare costs. It's expensive to become someone who can sign prescriptions, it takes time, and you want to be reimbursed to assuage the lost time, added stress, and financial cost.

For most of nursing, a bedside nurse makes what? 40-60 grand/yr? A NP effectually twice that (if not more)? NPs don't want to be bedside nurses so some loan or debt is worthwhile to get away from that environment, but aspiring APRNs need to moderate their choices on career. Heathcare is increasingly not the luxurious profession it once was. Adding in the fact that graduate nursing programs want to throw in a bunch of arcane, trivial coursework to make themselves seem like an entirely separate body of knowledge. Who really cares about nursing theory? What kind of autism is required to do doctoral work in that field and teach it for a career? Community health let alone advanced community health? What was that even about? Multiple research methods courses that could more effectively be given as a series of seminars.... All of this obfuscates our clinical education the sole thing all of us became NPs to obtain and will be assessed, reimbursed, and judged by for the remainder of our work lives.

Much could be done to improve the profession, but I think we'll only see it become more dilute.
Maybe I’m just confused here, but if NPs are being reimbursed at 80-100% rates of physicians, then why are they (on average) making about half of a Family med doc?
 
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Why would a psyche NP work there? Why would they even need a psyche NP to work when they can’t prescribe? They pay $150k for chart auditing?

Since you think your training is so poor, drop out, or get a job where you are at and audit charts. Nobody is making you do what you are doing.
I actually had a job evaluating patients and approving therapy treatment plans. Paid $150/hr and no prescribing. Was great! I think any time you can get a consultant role and not carry patients (and thus not prescribe) it's a great gig.
 
Maybe I’m just confused here, but if NPs are being reimbursed at 80-100% rates of physicians, then why are they (on average) making about half of a Family med doc?
Very good question. I used to make more than my personal FP PCP who I've known for years socially. I'd say it's the employment relationship. Physicians expect a certain treatment and compensation. They've been socialized to that and it conveys across their culture. Most NPs are often middle aged women just happy to lick from the bowl, spare their backs, and get away from the bedside. A lot of NPs take jobs getting paid by degree and experience rather than reimbursement which is absolutely stupid. This is why many healthcare systems are trying to expand NP staff and stagnate or reduce MD/DO staff. I see this happening in PC in my area, but it's prolific within MH.

Incidentally, I'm talking about mental health rates although still often a 99213 with an established outpatient with a 90833 modifier.
 
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I see the opposite. Most NPs are pissed because the clinical training was "lite" and see the DNP as vapid and shallow. I just did a post discussing this elsewhere on this thread. The initial training is an atrocity.
I'm in pp. Not sure where you are seeing them. That's what I see
 
The thing is I don't really care about the grades necessarily. I mean NPs don't need residencies so as long as you pass your boars, nobody will ever know. But I mean I put close to 0 effort into this test and found it quite simply. I would assume most any family practice physician would have easily passed this exam even though they (almost certainly) never prescribe antipsychotics.

While I'm also nitpicking, I find it incredibly obnoxious that my instructor feels compelled to have every single degree he's ever earned next to his name - even his multiple degrees in divinity studies which obviously have nothing to do with nursing. He even feels compelled to list his DNP, MSN, BSN, and ADN all as part of his signature even though each of those degrees implies the next one.

I guess I should start signing my name Ryan Donahue, MSN, BSN, BA, ADN, AS, AA, FNP-C, APRN, PHN, RN just so I can look cool too :rolleyes:
Most people in academia are full of their own ego. I know of a law professor who insists upon being called "Doctor So-And-So" in emails because the JD counts as a doctorate-level degree.

I'm willing to go there with PhDs and physicians and even DNPs but please stop if you are a lawyer and you want to be called a doctor professionally.
 
In a lot of places, medicine is some form of direct entry after high school.
There are definitely people in Britain and Australia and France who walk into medical programs at 18/19 and then apply for residencies in the States by the time they're 22/23. It's only the United States that insists upon piss-poor high school time-wasting followed by liberal arts college years and only THEN professional programs.
 
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There are definitely people in Britain and Australia and France who walk into medical programs at 18/19 and then apply for residencies in the States by the time they're 22/23. It's only the United States that insists upon piss-poor high school time-wasting followed by liberal arts college years and only THEN professional programs.
I've often wondered about this. Are there any studies whether the undergraduate preparation makes better physicians, dentists, optometrists, etc? Lawyers? A couple of lawyer friends have both said they'd be just as effective in practice with only one year of LS rather than three. *Shrug* I recall when pharmacists, OTs and PTs were all BS holders and worked with a PA who had an associate's degree in the field and knew a CRNA who was a diploma trained RN with a certificate in anesthesia. His mother had been a flight attendant back when they had to be nurses (back when nurses received cooking lessons lol).

The director of a large hospital system here had a Bachelor of Medicine and Surgery from Australia and in the US later got an MPH (which he was paid to get). He was referred to as "doctor" and his ID card and email sig even said "DOCTOR" on it. I always wanted to ask how that felt. I don't, personally, have any reverence for academic titles, but IMO anyone with a doctoral degree may elect to refer to themselves as doctor while those that don't probably shouldn't. I like the scene in Spies Like Us where all the doctors introduce themselves to the other doctors.
 
Maybe I’m just confused here, but if NPs are being reimbursed at 80-100% rates of physicians, then why are they (on average) making about half of a Family med doc?

I'm not up to date with a lot of this stuff so may be wrong but my gut reactions are:
1. HC systems, corporate & P/E outfits, need to make a profit off labor. Hence they favor expansion of scope of practice.
2. Unless a physician/clinician has admitting privileges and can bring in pts, they have limited leverage.
3. Who's medically liable for NPs? Unless they carry the same personal liability as a physician, another entity is taking on this liability and this will be used against them.
 
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I'm not up to date with a lot of this stuff so may be wrong but my gut reactions are:
1. HC systems, corporate & P/E outfits, need to make a profit off labor. Hence they favor expansion of scope of practice.
2. Unless a physician/clinician has admitting privileges and can bring in pts, they have limited leverage.
3. Who's medically liable for NPs? Unless they carry the same personal liability as a physician, another entity is taking on this liability and this will be used against them.
It's probably factored in the cost of doing business. Most of these MBAs are not geniuses but they are not stupid.
 
This is probably discussed somewhere else, but lately I've been at a crossroads in my career where I'm just sort of frustrated with my profession and the lack of respect we get from physicians. Unfortunately, I think a lot of that may be earned.

Case in point...

I am currently an FNP enrolled in a PMHNP program at a relatively prestigious university (US News has it top 5 in America). This is a post-master's certificate program that is only open to currently licensed, practicing NPs. I have no idea if this program is very selected because I did not ask anyone at the university about the admissions acceptance rate and this was the only program I applied to.

We just had our psychopharmacology midterm. A lot of my classmates were stressed out because this class is traditionally regarded as "hard" and the most difficult class in the program. As someone working multiple jobs I didn't have much time to put any effort into prep for this class and figured as a practicing NP I already know a lot of psychopharm even though I work in family practice. I watched the lectures (at 1.5 speed) and did little else. The exam was proctored via video. I suppose you could cheat, but I didn't want to figure out a way to do this so I took it the way we are supposed to. The exam was multiple choice (4 choices per question) and I ended up with an A on what I thought was a pretty simple exam.

Now that the exam is over I just looked at the class average was 79.4% with low of 32%. That low F is clearly pretty bad especially considering random guessing would yield 25%. The part that scares me is this isn't just some random person way over their heads. He/she is currently a practicing provider. What's even scarier, is I looked at our syllabus and assumed that this person gets a 32% on the final exam but completes all the other coursework with 100% (which is pretty likely since class average is 90-95%+ on these exercises). If this person does that they will just barely pass. But it gets worse - the instructor also offers extra credit which will provide further breathing room. Based on the way the course is graded, if you get 100% on all the fluff assignments and do the extra credit, you only need to score 19.3% on the exams to pass the course.

Obviously this is just one example, but this is quite appalling. Maybe med school is the same way and med students just like to hype how stressful everything is, but I can't imagine this is the case. If you score 32% on pharmacology tests in an online class, you should not be prescribing these medications. Period.

I realize there is a huge lack of providers in this country, but pumping out providers this way does not seem to be the solution. This system can't possibly sustain itself.
I’m only going to comment on one section because it needs to be commented on: for you to insinuate that maybe med school is the same way and that med students just hype the stress’ is absolutely ridiculous and you really have no business even commenting on it. In med school they draw actual lines, there is no extra credit, you either make it or you don’t - there is no in between at all. I’ll acknowledge there are outliers to everything and there very well could be here but from what I know all too well, this is what it is. I’ll leave you all to it now. Thank you and good luck.
 
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This is probably discussed somewhere else, but lately I've been at a crossroads in my career where I'm just sort of frustrated with my profession and the lack of respect we get from physicians. Unfortunately, I think a lot of that may be earned.

Case in point...

I am currently an FNP enrolled in a PMHNP program at a relatively prestigious university (US News has it top 5 in America). This is a post-master's certificate program that is only open to currently licensed, practicing NPs. I have no idea if this program is very selected because I did not ask anyone at the university about the admissions acceptance rate and this was the only program I applied to.

We just had our psychopharmacology midterm. A lot of my classmates were stressed out because this class is traditionally regarded as "hard" and the most difficult class in the program. As someone working multiple jobs I didn't have much time to put any effort into prep for this class and figured as a practicing NP I already know a lot of psychopharm even though I work in family practice. I watched the lectures (at 1.5 speed) and did little else. The exam was proctored via video. I suppose you could cheat, but I didn't want to figure out a way to do this so I took it the way we are supposed to. The exam was multiple choice (4 choices per question) and I ended up with an A on what I thought was a pretty simple exam.

Now that the exam is over I just looked at the class average was 79.4% with low of 32%. That low F is clearly pretty bad especially considering random guessing would yield 25%. The part that scares me is this isn't just some random person way over their heads. He/she is currently a practicing provider. What's even scarier, is I looked at our syllabus and assumed that this person gets a 32% on the final exam but completes all the other coursework with 100% (which is pretty likely since class average is 90-95%+ on these exercises). If this person does that they will just barely pass. But it gets worse - the instructor also offers extra credit which will provide further breathing room. Based on the way the course is graded, if you get 100% on all the fluff assignments and do the extra credit, you only need to score 19.3% on the exams to pass the course.

Obviously this is just one example, but this is quite appalling. Maybe med school is the same way and med students just like to hype how stressful everything is, but I can't imagine this is the case. If you score 32% on pharmacology tests in an online class, you should not be prescribing these medications. Period.

I realize there is a huge lack of providers in this country, but pumping out providers this way does not seem to be the solution. This system can't possibly sustain itself.
If this happens at a top 5 program just imagine how it is at Internet University where there are 100% acceptance rates and the coursework is 100% online.
 
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I’m only going to comment on one section because it needs to be commented on: for you to insinuate that maybe med school is the same way and that med students just hype the stress’ is absolutely ridiculous and you really have no business even commenting on it. In med school they draw actual lines, there is no extra credit, you either make it or you don’t - there is no in between at all. I’ll acknowledge there are outliers to everything and there very well could be here but from what I know all too well, this is what it is. I’ll leave you all to it now. Thank you and good luck.
Yes, also think about the competition once you are in medical school. The people who got in are all very smart and driven and now the curves are based on that. And people fail out of medical school. The person who thinks med school is easy should take the MCAT and the undergrad classes, which is not nursing undergrad, apply to med school and go there. No one is stopping him
 
There are definitely people in Britain and Australia and France who walk into medical programs at 18/19 and then apply for residencies in the States by the time they're 22/23. It's only the United States that insists upon piss-poor high school time-wasting followed by liberal arts college years and only THEN professional programs.
They can only apply for residency in the states if they have passed USMLE step one and two. Many immigrants study for years to pass those exams.
 
If this happens at a top 5 program just imagine how it is at Internet University where there are 100% acceptance rates and the coursework is 100% online.
I usually don't see physicians post that they are in a top medical school. All the medical schools in the US are very competitive and the training is rigorous and standardized. And then residency is regulated by the ACGME. All the step exams and board exams are standardized also.

I enjoyed undergrad and feel it helps me with my field.
 
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