Should podiatry students call themselves medical students?

[GypsyHummus]

I would not consider dental students and optometry students medical students. The reason being is they don’t have the same science rigor for preclinical classes.

With this logic does that mean dental students are med students? What about ODs? I’m just curious where the line gets drawn.

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[Stagg737]

Should DO students call themselves "medical students"? Or should they be designated as "Osteopathic Medical Students" at all times?

AZPOD, DMU, and Western take the exact same courses with the same tests and do rotations with the DOs, replacing OMM for Podiatry specific courses (surgical in many cases). My philosophy has always been, at least at these integrated schools with DO and DPM students, if you consider DOs to be physicians, then by that same logic, DPMs are physicians too, albeit of the foot and ankle.

Now, the boards arent the same, but neither is the USMLE vs COMLEX. Is a DO who has taken the COMLEX a physician, or are only DOs who have taken the USMLE?

Edit: I also think that if Podiatry was available to MD/DO students, it would be medium competitive in the likes of general surgery, EM, or any non ROADs specialty. Surgery, non surgeon hours, great mix of primary care (diabetus), ortho (bunion and reconstructive surgery), amputations (gen surg), derm (fungus), and heavy procedures that can get people fixed up quick. Some people cant get over the "feet" part, but if you think about it, feet are just bigger hands.

In terms of just MS vs. OMS, as a DO student I don't really care. I refer to myself as a DO student when working with patients, but have never had anyone get frustrated when someone else referred to me as a med student. There are also pod schools that take classes with MD students, so I'd assume you'd make the same argument there.

USMLE is essentially the same as COMLEX in terms of content (only difference is COMLEX includes OMM), the major difference is the quality of questions. Most people I know actually thought USMLE was an easier test because of how the questions are written, but either way I'd like to see everything merge asap.

Only in that you have to pass the exam to get a residency. Podiatry is different in that our classes are graded and our board exams are pass/fail. So like someone said earlier in the thread, for DPMs and DOs taking the same classes it's usually a little more pressure for the DPMs since their grades matter.

So GPA and class rank are two of the big determinants for residency in podiatry.

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This is also true for MD/DO students. Even at P/F schools, most of them have an internal ranking system which stratifies their students. There's a document on SDN which actually shows how internal ranking at every med school in the country is expressed in the dean's letter, and there are only about 5 schools in the nation with a true pass/fail curriculum. So GPA and class rank also matter for almost every med school in the country. In addition to that our board scores matter (other than Step 2 CS/PE which is pass fail) for residency. So while it may seem like there's more pressure on the pods students, it's actually the same or more on the MD/DO students.

Students at all podiatry schools learn and dissect full head to toe anatomy, along with physiology and pathology of all systems head to toe.

Yes, but the degree to which they have to learn that varies from school to school. I have 2 friends who went to podiatry school, one that was independent and one where they took classes alongside MD students. When talking to both, it was pretty clear the depth of the material they covered was less than at my school (and every other MD/DO school I know of). There may be some podiatry schools that require their students to learn everything the DOs/MDs at those schools learn, but it's certainly not all of them.

Note: I don't really care if pod students call themselves med students or if podiatrists call themselves physicians (I consider pods and dentists to be essentially equivalent to physicians). I just don't think they're the same thing (because they're not) and most of the time I've seen that it comes across as them trying to piggyback off of another degree to try and increase their prestige/reputation instead of just being proud of their initials and the work that went into them.

 

[bobtheweazel]

Note: I don't really care if pod students call themselves med students or if podiatrists call themselves physicians (I consider pods and dentists to be essentially equivalent to physicians). I just don't think they're the same thing (because they're not) and most of the time I've seen that it comes across as them trying to piggyback off of another degree to try and increase their prestige/reputation instead of just being proud of their initials and the work that went into them.

All I'm saying is that podiatry school and MD/DO school are similar enough (in some cases the exact same) that in casual conversation, especially when speaking with nonmedical people, "medical student" is the most accurate descriptor of what we do. If somebody asks me what I do and I say I go to podiatry school they often think we ONLY learn about feet or that our schooling is only 2-4 years without a residency or myriad other misconceptions. Whereas "medical student" is a more accurate descriptor and people will immediately know it's 4 years of learning a ridiculous amount of information about the entire human body followed by a residency of some length (that's what MOST people think of when you say medical school and that's what podiatry school is). But even many health professionals aren't exactly sure what podiatry school and training entails and so even when talking to many people who are in healthcare it's still more descriptive and accurate to say "medical school" or "medical student" unless I'm sure that person will know what podiatry actually is in which case I 100% say "podiatry school" or "podiatry student". I certainly don't condone any podiatry student trying to pass off as an MD or DO student, but also I've never seen that happen. I've only seen podiatry students say "medical student" because it's the most accurate descriptor of what they do, because podiatry school is medical school—though not MD or DO school.


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[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

All I'm saying is that podiatry school and MD/DO school are similar enough (in some cases the exact same) that in casual conversation, especially when speaking with nonmedical people, "medical student" is the most accurate descriptor of what we do. If somebody asks me what I do and I say I go to podiatry school they often think we ONLY learn about feet or that our schooling is only 2-4 years without a residency or myriad other misconceptions. Whereas "medical student" is a more accurate descriptor and people will immediately know it's 4 years of learning a ridiculous amount of information about the entire human body followed by a residency of some length (that's what MOST people think of when you say medical school and that's what podiatry school is). But even many health professionals aren't exactly sure what podiatry school and training entails and so even when talking to many people who are in healthcare it's still more descriptive and accurate to say "medical school" or "medical student" unless I'm sure that person will know what podiatry actually is in which case I 100% say "podiatry school" or "podiatry student". I certainly don't condone any podiatry student trying to pass off as an MD or DO student, but also I've never seen that happen. I've only seen podiatry students say "medical student" because it's the most accurate descriptor of what they do, because podiatry school is medical school—though not MD or DO school.


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I get it, but this kind of seems like you have an inferiority complex. You call yourself a med student because you want to make sure people know you don't just learn about feet and that you do a 4 year professional program and a residency? For the former, you learn about a lot of stuff, but in the end you are a foot physician. For the latter, those misconceptions won't change if everyone thinks your an MD/DO student.

 

[bobtheweazel]

I get it, but this kind of seems like you have an inferiority complex. You call yourself a med student because you want to make sure people know you don't just learn about feet and that you do a 4 year professional program and a residency? For the former, you learn about a lot of stuff, but in the end you are a foot physician. For the latter, those misconceptions won't change if everyone thinks your an MD/DO student.

I call myself a med student because the entire US population other than a small subset of MD/DO students consider me a med student. When I fully explain to people what podiatry school is they consider it to be medical school. I simply turn a 10 minute conversation into a 10 second conversation by saying I'm in medical school, which I am. If they inquire further then I say I'm in podiatry school so I'll be specializing in the foot and ankle. Easy peasy.

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[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I call myself a med student because the entire US population other than a small subset of MD/DO students consider me a med student. When I fully explain to people what podiatry school is they consider it to be medical school. I simply turn a 10 minute conversation into a 10 second conversation by saying I'm in medical school, which I am. If they inquire further then I say I'm in podiatry school so I'll be specializing in the foot and ankle. Easy peasy.

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That's great, but if they don't inquire further, they go on thinking podiatry school is just an easy course where you just learn about taping feet. Maybe I'm just more inquisitive than most, but if someone told me they were a podiatry student and didn't know a ton about it, I'd definitely ask.

And as for your first sentence, I'd say that a huge chunk of the US population would probably call a rad tech student a med student as well.

But for the record, I've said a couple times in this thread already that I consider podiatrists physicians, and therefore by extension, podiatry students med students.

 

[PreMedMissteps]

Podiatry students do clinical rotations, pass boards, and complete a 3-4 year residency.

I don’t know anything about podiatry school. When you say that they do clinical rotations, do you mean like the rotations that MS3 students do? Or rotations that deal with feet and ankles?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

I don’t know anything about podiatry school. When you say that they do clinical rotations, do you mean like the rotations that MS3 students do? Or rotations that deal with feet and ankles?

I only looked up Scholl's curriculum, but they do mostly podiatry-focused rotations with some IM, general surgery, and EM rotations thrown in there. Their curriculum is actually pretty cool. Looks almost exactly like an MD/DO med school curriculum.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Yep. Podiatry is a wonderful backup option for people who couldn't for whatever reason (MCAT, GPA, etc.) get into MD/DO school and still want to be a physician.

I would point people in the direction of DPM way before the Caribbean option.

I only looked up Scholl's curriculum, but they do mostly podiatry-focused rotations with some IM, general surgery, and EM rotations thrown in there. Their curriculum is actually pretty cool. Looks almost exactly like an MD/DO med school curriculum.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Yep. Podiatry is a wonderful backup option for people who couldn't for whatever reason (MCAT, GPA, etc.) get into MD/DO school and still want to be a physician.

I would point people in the direction of DPM way before the Caribbean option.

So would I, actually. If I were someone who had a failed cycle, I'd take a year off to try to make my app better, then apply MD/DO and DPM.

 

[DexterMorganSK]

I don’t know anything about podiatry school. When you say that they do clinical rotations, do you mean like the rotations that MS3 students do? Or rotations that deal with feet and ankles?

I've posted the general curriculum in the past, happy to post it here again:

 

[bobtheweazel]

I don’t know anything about podiatry school. When you say that they do clinical rotations, do you mean like the rotations that MS3 students do? Or rotations that deal with feet and ankles?

Depends on the school and what affiliations they have and which rotations you choose.

AT MY SCHOOL: Since it is podiatry school after all there are plenty of podiatry-specific rotations such as podiatric surgery, lower extremity wound care, foot and ankle radiology, etc. We also do anesthesia rotations at local hospitals. Then we all do an internal medicine clerkship and can choose any two from the following: infectious disease, vascular, orthopedics, or neurology. These are normal clerkships like any MD student in the area would do. For example, one of my upperclassmen did an AK amputation skin to skin on his vascular surgery clerkship as a 3rd year pod student, so its not like we're just shadowing or visiting these programs.

So the exact rotations/clerkships you can get depend on the school but its usually podiatry relevant since we've already chosen our specialty such as internal medicine, infectious disease, and a variety of surgical rotations. We spend extra time on surgical rotations rather than on things like psychiatry or OB/GYN.

All of this is important since we do residency side by side with the MD/DO residents and are expected to take care of patients and take call like any other resident.

 

[Stagg737]

I've only seen podiatry students say "medical student" because it's the most accurate descriptor of what they do, because podiatry school is medical school—though not MD or DO school.

Generally I'm alright with it, but the problem I've commonly encountered is that everyone in the medical industry now calls their training "medical school". I've my wife has told people I'm a med student and they ask what nursing school I got to. I've even heard EMTs or techs call their training medical school, which is incredibly misleading. I've found myself having to explain, "No, I'm in actual medical school, to become a physician" more times than I think are reasonable.

We also do anesthesia rotations at local hospitals. Then we all do an internal medicine clerkship and can choose any two from the following: infectious disease, vascular, orthopedics, or neurology. These are normal clerkships like any MD student in the area would do.

When you say "normal clerkships like any MD student would do", what do you mean? Because all of those clerkships you've mentioned are not part of normal MD curriculum other than neurology at some schools. The IM rotations are general and you rotate on the unit doing pre-rounds (seeing the patient on your own and gathering info/doing your own physical), then talking to residents/rounding with them, then presenting the patient and rounding with the whole team. At a lot of places you also write your own notes which are reviewed by residents or attendings and which can apparently now be billed for.

Also, do those clinical rotations encompass everything with the physical condition? Like are you suggesting med adjustments for stroke symptoms, renal issues, heart disease, etc that isn't impacting the leg and feet or is the vast majority geared towards treating the feet? While it's fine to get a full experience, I don't feel like it's necessary for podiatry students and kind of a waste of your time if it's not focused towards the lower leg or diseases/conditions that will directly impact it like DM or PVD. Again, not trying to diminish any part of your education, but it sounds different and it should be given your profession is very different from most other physicians.

 

[Robin-jay]

I shadowed podiatrists back in the day (in addition to MD/DO physicians), mostly out of sheer curiosity.

The podiatrists I shadowed did clinic like any other normal physician, did surgery like any other normal physician, and seemed as intelligent as any other physician.

I'd feel like a real A-hole to say he isn't a physician, and wouldn't mind saying he went to "medical school".

If I had not done shadowing with podiatrists, I may have agreed with more of the "not a real physician, not a medical student" side.

 

[GypsyHummus]

I think its extremely important for DPMs to rotate through all the specialties during residency and be held to the same standard. Anything that can happen to one part of the body can manifest in the feet. A podiatrist needs to know internal medicine if the sores on someone's feet look like an STD, or if a heart medication has effect on blood supply to the foot and ankle. The only rotations I could see cutting out are psych and OBGYN, but even then, Pregnant women can have diffrent pathologies manifest due to excessive weight bearing.

Pods of today are not pods of 20 years ago.

Its interesting, Podiatry is a jack of all trades medical specialty covering one small area of the body. Every medical specialty with the exception of Psych and OB are covered in the foot and ankle. Derm? Warts and calluses. Emergency Med? Foot and ankle Truama. Orthopedic Surgery? Bunions, hammertoes and TARs. Cardio? Tons of vascular problems. Gen Surgery? Lots of amputations and wound care. Family med? Yearly diabetic checks. Oncology? Foot tumor excision. Neurology? Nueromas. I call it the Podiatry Paradox.

Also, do those clinical rotations encompass everything with the physical condition? Like are you suggesting med adjustments for stroke symptoms, renal issues, heart disease, etc that isn't impacting the leg and feet or is the vast majority geared towards treating the feet? While it's fine to get a full experience, I don't feel like it's necessary for podiatry students and kind of a waste of your time if it's not focused towards the lower leg or diseases/conditions that will directly impact it like DM or PVD. Again, not trying to diminish any part of your education, but it sounds different and it should be given your profession is very different from most other physicians.

 

[bobtheweazel]

Generally I'm alright with it, but the problem I've commonly encountered is that everyone in the medical industry now calls their training "medical school". I've my wife has told people I'm a med student and they ask what nursing school I got to. I've even heard EMTs or techs call their training medical school, which is incredibly misleading. I've found myself having to explain, "No, I'm in actual medical school, to become a physician" more times than I think are reasonable.



When you say "normal clerkships like any MD student would do", what do you mean? Because all of those clerkships you've mentioned are not part of normal MD curriculum other than neurology at some schools. The IM rotations are general and you rotate on the unit doing pre-rounds (seeing the patient on your own and gathering info/doing your own physical), then talking to residents/rounding with them, then presenting the patient and rounding with the whole team. At a lot of places you also write your own notes which are reviewed by residents or attendings and which can apparently now be billed for.

Also, do those clinical rotations encompass everything with the physical condition? Like are you suggesting med adjustments for stroke symptoms, renal issues, heart disease, etc that isn't impacting the leg and feet or is the vast majority geared towards treating the feet? While it's fine to get a full experience, I don't feel like it's necessary for podiatry students and kind of a waste of your time if it's not focused towards the lower leg or diseases/conditions that will directly impact it like DM or PVD. Again, not trying to diminish any part of your education, but it sounds different and it should be given your profession is very different from most other physicians.

What I meant by "normal rotations" was in direct response to PreMedMissteps who said "do you mean like the rotations that MS3 students do? Or rotations that deal with feet and ankles?" which is something you slightly touched on too. I do mean that those non-podiatric rotations are rotations just like an MS3 might do. And while I'm not saying those are standard rotations for all MD students, those are all rotations available to at least some MS3 students at some MD schools as electives or as part of their internal medicine or surgical blocks. The point I was trying to get across is that no, they're not all focused only on the foot and ankle.

Following the logic of your last point (which I don't disagree with) you could say that all MDs and DOs waste a lot of time during the didactic and clinical portions of medical school on topics that will ultimately be outside of their specialty, which is true. But would you not say that it is still important for all physicians to get a well rounded clinical experience as we will all still manage patients with multiple comorbidities that fall outside of our scope and work closely with other specialties? Besides that podiatrists in many hospitals are allowed to perform full H&Ps (head to toe) to admit their surgical patients and at some hospitals fully medically manage the non-podiatric conditions of patients admitted to the podiatry service. Perhaps some of the education and training is overkill, but the same could be said for someone who traverses the entire MD curriculum and training only to be a hand surgeon or an eye surgeon or what have you in the end.

With that being said though podiatry schools do realize that they're training podiatrists which is why we have a lot of surgical classes and workshops 2nd and 3rd year and more surgical rotations 3rd year rather than rotations like psychiatry and OB/GYN so we do start specializing earlier than MDs and DOs do but we still get a pretty generalized medical education.

 

[deleted853480]

Did you guys know that Dr Eggman is a podiatrist? Checkout this vid

 

[Stagg737]

I think its extremely important for DPMs to rotate through all the specialties during residency and be held to the same standard. Anything that can happen to one part of the body can manifest in the feet. A podiatrist needs to know internal medicine if the sores on someone's feet look like an STD, or if a heart medication has effect on blood supply to the foot and ankle. The only rotations I could see cutting out are psych and OBGYN, but even then, Pregnant women can have diffrent pathologies manifest due to excessive weight bearing.

Pods of today are not pods of 20 years ago.

Its interesting, Podiatry is a jack of all trades medical specialty covering one small area of the body. Every medical specialty with the exception of Psych and OB are covered in the foot and ankle. Derm? Warts and calluses. Emergency Med? Foot and ankle Truama. Orthopedic Surgery? Bunions, hammertoes and TARs. Cardio? Tons of vascular problems. Gen Surgery? Lots of amputations and wound care. Family med? Yearly diabetic checks. Oncology? Foot tumor excision. Neurology? Nueromas. I call it the Podiatry Paradox.

The bolded is a pretty gross exaggeration of the foot's involvement in disease processes. I mean, you're going to tell me retinoblastoma is going to present in the feet, I'll call bs all day. Even if by some strange twist of logic it does, by that point I'm not consulting a podiatrist, I'm sending them to palliative care.

I get what you're saying about them needing to be well-rounded in general, but imo there's no reason for them to be learning certain aspects of what med students learn because they'll either never encounter it in terms of what's relevant to them or it will be beyond the scope of what they should be treating. The same can be said for many aspects of medical school, but for different reasons.

But would you not say that it is still important for all physicians to get a well rounded clinical experience as we will all still manage patients with multiple comorbidities that fall outside of our scope and work closely with other specialties?

I think this point is overstated in terms of what physicians need to know going forward outside of FM, IM, and peds, as they're the front line for everything. Yes, as a future psychiatrist I should have a basic idea of the diseases my patients will have and the meds they're on. However, I don't need to know every aspect of them like we're taught in medical school. I need to know how they interact with what I'm treating (aka my patient with Graves' who is constantly anxious may not need an SSRI) and when it's time to refer them to another field, but not how to fully manage it. It's a waste of time, and frankly if I'm trying to manage those things on my own, inappropriate care.

The real reason for such a broad exposure for medical students (MDs and DOs), is the exposure itself. Most of us change what field we pursue at some point in medical school. When I started med school I was almost positive I wanted to enter ortho, when I started 3rd year I was almost 100% sure I wanted to do either FM or PMR into sports med and was 100% sure I would not like psychiatry. After my psych rotation, I completely changed my mind and after several more it became my obvious choice. If I wasn't forced to rotate in psych, I would have never chosen to pursue the field. For podiatry, some exposure to help you decide if you want to focus on surgery, a certain medical area like neurologic disorders or metabolic issues, or whether you want to generalize is fine. However, there's no need whatsoever for you to be learning when it's appropriate to administer tPA for certain strokes or how to differentiate between Wegener's vs. polyarteritis nodosa vs. Churg-Strauss as they're not relevant to any future career path of a podiatrist.

at some hospitals fully medically manage the non-podiatric conditions of patients admitted to the podiatry service.

This would legitimately frighten me. As I said before, if I were to see a patient who was having psych symptoms but who obviously had some severe metabolic disorders going on like thyroid dysfunction or severe DM, I would not attempt to manage them on my own. I would refer them to endocrine. Similarly, if any other field saw a patient who was having severe or persistent psychiatric issues, they'd be foolish not to refer them to psych and attempt to manage it on their own. Sure, there are some areas of crossover, and minor tweaks can be done. However, scope of practice matters in both principal and in actual treatment of your patients. If I found out a podiatrist was the one managing a family member's medications for CHF instead of a cardiologist, I'd be legitimately pissed. Just like if I found out a psychiatrist was managing a family member's diabetes meds.

 

[bobtheweazel]

However, there's no need whatsoever for you to be learning when it's appropriate to administer tPA for certain strokes or how to differentiate between Wegener's vs. polyarteritis nodosa vs. Churg-Strauss as they're not relevant to any future career path of a podiatrist.

I think a lot of non-podiatrists might underestimate what might pop up in the realm of podiatry. A friend of mine was recently diagnosed with Wegener's that first presented as arthralgia of his ankles. One of the most common cutaneous presentations of PAN is ulcerations of the leg. PAN and Churg-Strauss can both cause palpable purpura on the legs and foot drop.

This would legitimately frighten me. As I said before, if I were to see a patient who was having psych symptoms but who obviously had some severe metabolic disorders going on like thyroid dysfunction or severe DM, I would not attempt to manage them on my own. I would refer them to endocrine. Similarly, if any other field saw a patient who was having severe or persistent psychiatric issues, they'd be foolish not to refer them to psych and attempt to manage it on their own. Sure, there are some areas of crossover, and minor tweaks can be done. However, scope of practice matters in both principal and in actual treatment of your patients. If I found out a podiatrist was the one managing a family member's medications for CHF instead of a cardiologist, I'd be legitimately pissed. Just like if I found out a psychiatrist was managing a family member's diabetes meds.

I should clarify I guess that while JCAHO says that DPMs CAN do their own admission H&Ps in many cases they actually don't, just like pretty much everyone else. And by medically managing their non-podiatric medical conditions I mean stable conditions which doesn't consist of too much more than continuing their meds and keeping an eye on them. Patients who are severely ill wouldn't be admitted to the podiatry service in the first place or would be passed off to someone else when necessary. But nonetheless such cases would consist of monitoring and managing basic non-podiatric conditions.

 

[Stagg737]

I think a lot of non-podiatrists might underestimate what might pop up in the realm of podiatry. A friend of mine was recently diagnosed with Wegener's that first presented as arthralgia of his ankles. One of the most common cutaneous presentations of PAN is ulcerations of the leg. PAN and Churg-Strauss can both cause palpable purpura on the legs and foot drop.

I should clarify I guess that while JCAHO says that DPMs CAN do their own admission H&Ps in many cases they actually don't, just like pretty much everyone else. And by medically managing their non-podiatric medical conditions I mean stable conditions which doesn't consist of too much more than continuing their meds and keeping an eye on them. Patients who are severely ill wouldn't be admitted to the podiatry service in the first place or would be passed off to someone else when necessary. But nonetheless such cases would consist of monitoring and managing basic non-podiatric conditions.

While I realize the three conditions I named have effects that podiatrists may see, there's no reason for the podiatrist (or FM/IM doc for that matter) to be the one making those diagnoses. As I said, they should be able to recognize when something is really pathologic and refer to the appropriate physicians. That doesn't require an in-depth knowledge of the pathological mechanisms of the disorder or nuances in treatment. Idk how in-depth you go into those disorders, but if you're learning the histological features of the vessels in each one, that's unnecessary imo.

For the second paragraph, I guess part of my concern is that I don't know the extent to which podiatry schools go into pharmacology. From talking to an ex (now resident-podiatrist) it didn't sound like what she studied in school was as in-depth as the material I had to learn. So while I'd be fine with minor management as long as the patient is stable, but I've seen enough patients come in with A1Cs consistently over 9 or EFs of 30% or below that I would not feel comfortable with those patients being managed by a podiatrist (or an FM after a certain point).

 

[bobtheweazel]

While I realize the three conditions I named have effects that podiatrists may see, there's no reason for the podiatrist (or FM/IM doc for that matter) to be the one making those diagnoses. As I said, they should be able to recognize when something is really pathologic and refer to the appropriate physicians. That doesn't require an in-depth knowledge of the pathological mechanisms of the disorder or nuances in treatment. Idk how in-depth you go into those disorders, but if you're learning the histological features of the vessels in each one, that's unnecessary imo.

For the second paragraph, I guess part of my concern is that I don't know the extent to which podiatry schools go into pharmacology. From talking to an ex (now resident-podiatrist) it didn't sound like what she studied in school was as in-depth as the material I had to learn. So while I'd be fine with minor management as long as the patient is stable, but I've seen enough patients come in with A1Cs consistently over 9 or EFs of 30% or below that I would not feel comfortable with those patients being managed by a podiatrist (or an FM after a certain point).

I'd agree that the pod hopefully isn't the one making the diagnosis in the case of those three diseases and wouldn't be treating them either. We've covered those diseases in multiple classes and never went in to much more depth on them than basic epidemiology, pathophysiology, and how to recognize them. We didn't go into much detail on how to treat them either.

As for the pharmacology, our professors taught the same material to us as they do to our MD school and in the other schools where the DPMs and MDs/DOs are integrated that's definitely the case as well. In fact since our board exams cover all types of drugs from autonomic drugs to cardiovascular drugs to respiratory drugs to renal drugs to CNS drugs to psychiatric drugs to anesthesia to gout drugs to DMARDs to reproductive drugs and hormones to anticoagulants/antiplatelets/fibrinolytics to GI drugs to antimicrobial drugs to anticancer drugs and more, I would assume that even those couple of podiatry schools not directly associated with an MD or DO school basically cover the same material as we do.

In the end though it's obviously the hospital that decides who can do what and they wouldn't let the pods (or anyone else) do anything that they didn't have the proper education and training to do.

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[josebiwasabi]

I am a DPM PGY3 in a major US MD academic institution.

We essentially function similarly to an orthopedic service.

We admit two main groups of patients as our primary: 1) healthy trauma/major reconstructive patients for pain control and 2) patients with reasonably controlled DM, HTN, HLD, etc. If someone is a medical trainwreck (a lot of the patients on our list...) they are admitted to a medicine service and we are a consult team, even if their primary reason for admission is podiatric in nature.

Our education is very similar to the allopathic curriculum, with some key differences, obviously.

As a resident, I have had rotations on internal medicine, psych, endocrine, anesthesia, vascular, general surg trauma, ortho trauma, emergency medicine, pathology, and radiology. I was treated like a regular intern/resident on whatever service I was on. I was responsible for seeing my own patients, coming up with plans, etc. I have held the service pager for multiple surgical services overnight. The fellows and attendings supervising me trusted me and my education as a DPM to take care of their patients.

The main reason to learn all of the seemingly unrelated material in medicine is not so that we can evaluate and treat those pathologies. It is so that when we see a patient with those conditions, we have a general understanding of what is going on and have an intelligent discourse with other physicians to help best treat the patient.

Also, as a final point, a lot of psych is indeed irrelevant to podiatric surgery, but there are certain things that are important. Depression, delirium, and capacity to consent are all issues that come up frequently with our inpatients.

 

[longhaul3]

If I found out a podiatrist was the one managing a family member's medications for CHF instead of a cardiologist, I'd be legitimately pissed. Just like if I found out a psychiatrist was managing a family member's diabetes meds.

I think this is a straw man (as long as we are talking about inpatients at least). Unless it's for OHT or a VAD, in which case it's straight to CT surgery, any patient with CHF who is admitted to the hospital is going to a medicine service, no matter how bad the feet. Podiatry/ortho can consult and take the patient to the OR at some point, but podiatry is not going to be admitting anyone to their service with a serious comorbid condition, I don't think.

With that said I would answer "no" to the question in the thread's title.

 

[Money Moniker]

Absolutely not. Everybody knows what a "medical school' is and what a "medical student" is. I'd wager a large fraction of the population has never heard the term "podiatrist" or has any idea that such a profession even exists. Telling people you are a medical student when you do not in fact go to a medical school is clearly disingenuous.

 

[freak7]

Students at all podiatry schools learn and dissect full head to toe anatomy, along with physiology and pathology of all systems head to toe. Students at all podiatry schools also do rotations outside of podiatry in their clinical years.
Enviado desde mi Pixel mediante Tapatalk

Well shoot, I learned something today.

 

[ProspectivePostPreDent]

Well the DMD students at my university don't learn anatomy below the abdomen and don't do rotations outside of dentistry in their clinical years.

Students at all podiatry schools learn and dissect full head to toe anatomy, along with physiology and pathology of all systems head to toe. Students at all podiatry schools also do rotations outside of podiatry in their clinical years.

So there's a big difference between dental school and medical school. I assume the situation is similar for optometry.

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If you want to hinge an argument based on rotations, that's fine, but your "my school does x with med" defense of podiatry ought to be applied consistently - some dental schools share the same preclinical curriculum with med, too, such as Harvard, Columbia, UConn, Stony Brook...

As for the med student knocking the rigor of the dental biomed curriculum - how in the world would he/she know? I guess the only people who would are the omfs crowd. Maybe we should ask them about how overwhelmed they were barely scraping through the death gauntlet known as medical school.

 

[DexterMorganSK]

 

[deleted853480]

 

[croak2]

Should podiatry students call themselves medical students? No.

 

[MedSchoolHopeful777]

So if I called myself just med student...would you roll your cat eyes?

I think a med student implies that you are going to be an MD/DO, so calling yourself a medical student may give off the wrong ideas.

 

[getdown]

meh, who cares.

 

[Perkis]

I just have to make one comment on this forum and then I’m out.

Knowing that a podiatrist diagnoses and treats abnormalities concerning the lower legs, feet, and ankles including performing complicated surgeries like forefoot, rear foot, and foot/ankle reconstruction while specializing in pediatrics, sports medice, dermatology, and wound care after having completed 4 years undergrad, 4 years podiatry school, and 3 years residency where they’ve completed tens of thousands of hours of clincal and surgey experience working 90 hour weeks is enough - podiatrists prove themselves with experience not a fake title.

Podiatrists say they are in medical school not because they want people to think they are going to be MD’s or DO’s but because it’s easier to just say medical school to people who really don’t care what kind of medicine they’re doing.

Plus if this is the kind of problem medical students are spending their time worrying about then they need more problems.

 

[RNtoMD87]

You're going to be a doctor, and your education is medical in nature, so why not?


If some medical student gets upset at you calling yourself a "med school student" (which makes sense to me because its much easier than explaining podiatry) they are probably in medicine for the wrong reason- self importance.

I doubt any real physician would care. I mean what are you going to be? "A foot doctor"

 

[fourandtwo]

I don't really know much about podiatry medicine but it seems to me that it is totally fine to call yourself a med student or a physician so long as you don't give medical advice outside your realm. This goes for any and all specialties. Pediatricians and neurosurgeons are physicians but neither should give advice to a lung cancer patient

 

[drbatsandwich]

Can't podiatrists go into a decently wide range of specialties including surgery? Don't they take basically the same courses in podiatry school as one would take in regular med school? Unless you're an internist/hospitalist/family med or whatever, you're specialized on one thing the same way a podiatrist is... unless I'm totally off base, I would consider a podiatrist to be a physician.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Can't podiatrists go into a decently wide range of specialties including surgery? Don't they take basically the same courses in podiatry school as one would take in regular med school? Unless you're an internist/hospitalist/family med or whatever, you're specialized on one thing the same way a podiatrist is... unless I'm totally off base, I would consider a podiatrist to be a physician.

I mean they are considered physicians by most state licensing boards I think, but their scope of practice is limited while MD/DO is not. Additionally, while an ophthalmologist is specialized in the eye, coming out of med school, she had the option to specialize in whatever she wanted—podiatrists don’t. I think of podiatrists as being more similar to dentists than MDs. But I still call them both doctor.

 

[DexterMorganSK]

I mean they are considered physicians by most state licensing boards I think, but their scope of practice is limited while MD/DO is not. Additionally, while an ophthalmologist is specialized in the eye, coming out of med school, she had the option to specialize in whatever she wanted—podiatrists don’t. I think of podiatrists as being more similar to dentists than MDs. But I still call them both doctor.

Here is a list of all the States and their definition of a DPM (from 2010) : Login | APMA

With the passage of the new VA bill into law, from here on, this profession is moving in the positive direction and will only get better.

 

[deleted916225]

I call them podiatry students unless told otherwise.
Also I know someone who specifically refers to Des Moines University podiatry school as "Medical School".

 

[Isoval]

Stuck-up Medical Student: “HAHAHA what are you gonna be, a foot doctor? That’s not even a doctor hahahahaha”

Podiatric Medical Student: “Say that again, but slowly.”

 

[GypsyHummus]

I like how all the MD/DO students are like "Stoopid pods, U no doctur! We da only fee-zi-tions, u no doctur, big silly. Me da Big BOY, you small silly" While the nursing lobby is in congress with a battering ram changing state laws for Nurse Practitioners on getting parity with half the training.

 

[battie]

Question for those that think the boards tests and residencies define if someone is a doctor. Veterinarians are considered "doctors", yet:

1) the NAVLE is pass/fail with little (if any) baring on internship/residency; those are influenced more on GPA/class rank and letters of rec iirc

2) we aren't even required to do internships or residencies at all to practice medicine.

So if veterinarians are considered doctors despite fewer years of overall schooling compared to podiatrists, why are we considered "vet med students" but podiatry students are not "med students"?

I do agree with people being specific in their description, though. I say I'm a vet med student, not med student, because I'm doing animals, not people. Likewise, I could see the argument of a podiatry student saying, "I'm a med student who wants to be a podiatrist, which is a foot doctor".

Genuinely curious cause the difference between human med distinctions and vet med distinctions blow my mind sometimes.

 

[getdown]

why is this thread still alive?

 

[LizzyM]

why is this thread still alive?

Egotists wrapped up in the prestige of specific professions become bent out of shape when a member of a profession that they believe to be "less than" appears to be attempting to claim a place at the top of the egotist's self-conceived pyramid.

 

[DrRiker]

haha. No way. that's ridiculous. we all know that conventionally the term medical student means someone training to be a physician (that treats the whole body). it's like doctors of nursing calling themselves "doctor" in the healthcare setting. Does anybody think that is okay? I sincerely hope not.

Lol ophthalmologists don't even check blood pressure. They must not be physicians, right?

 

[Windom Earle]

Egotists wrapped up in the prestige of specific professions become bent out of shape when a member of a profession that they believe to be "less than" appears to be attempting to claim a place at the top of the egotist's self-conceived pyramid.

What would you think if you heard a pod student like me say they are in med school?

 

[Windom Earle]

Nope

Care to elaborate?

 

[Windom Earle]

Here before this blows up into a 7 page argument like the physical therapist one

Haven't read that, but not sure why it blew up. Seems clear what the answer is

 

[Windom Earle]

Podiatrists say they are in medical school not because they want people to think they are going to be MD’s or DO’s but because it’s easier to just say medical school to people who really don’t care what kind of medicine they’re doing.

I think you deserve 100 likes.

 

[LizzyM]

What would you think if you heard a pod student like me say they are in med school?

I'd want to know more about where you are enrolled and what you've enjoyed about your studies thus far and how you got interested in that profession. And maybe you'd be interested to know more about me, too, and we could have a conversation. I'm more interested in people than in labels or titles.

 

[Mt Kilimanjaro]

Imagining podiatry students as the Foot Clan makes this dumpster fire of a thread more sensible:

“Call April O'Neil in on this case, and
You'd better hurry up, there's no time to waste!
We need help, like quick, on the double.
Have pity on the city; man, it's in trouble!
We need heroes like the Lone Ranger
When Tonto came pronto, when there was danger.
They didn't say we'd be there in half an hour,
'Cause they displayed...Turtle Power!
...

'Cause she was cornered by some wayward teens.
Headed by Shredder they were anything but good.
Misguided, unloved, they called them The Foot.
They could terrorize and be angry youths, and
They mugged the people; who needed proof?
Then from out of the dark came an awesome sound!
Shouted "Cowabunga!" as they hit the ground.
From the field of weeds the heroes rescued the flower
'Cause they possessed...Turtle Power!”