Should Race Be A Consideration In Medical School Admissions?

[monday_best]

And just thinking about the title of this thread.

Yes, race should be considered, if one has any interest in public health at all and greater benefit to society (see my previous posts).

I'm (honestly!) very sorry that AA is an unfair system at the individual level for people who want to become doctors, but at the community level (aside from all of the "othering" and the stereotypes it perpetuates) it is a beneficial program.

I think if you all believe any of what you wrote in your personal statements, you should support programs that are helping to make a significant number of patients' lives better.

I don't want AA to be necessary anymore (and I acknowledge that it sucks), but we can't get rid of it without finding another way to address serving our minority and other underserved populations.

End soapbox speech.

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[SketchLazy]

You make some great points and I totally agree. I actually had no idea that MCAT scores were so correlated along ethnic lines until I stumbled upon this

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2006/mcatgparaceeth.htm

URM students with slightly lower scores are no less capable of being a great doctor any more than DO students. But, it would be good to know why these data are so significant.

You bring up a good point here. On average DO matriculants have lower GPAs and lower MCATs than MD matriculants. If people are saying that lower GPAs and lower MCATs usually equates to being a worse doctor, than they are also implying that DOs aren't as qualified as MDs. Is that the case? I'm sure everyone in the osteo related forums and most here in the allo forums would completely disagree. They aren't taking into account the time spent in medical school which is where people learn to be good doctors. I think people need to differentiate between their conception of affirmative action as a 'free ride' for the person with a 2.0 gpa and 19 MCAT and the reality that affirmative action gives an advantage to qualified applicants only.

And Nasrudin brings up another good point...

There is a major difference between approaching a problem ideally and realistically. The idealistic approach says that AA is simply not fair and some other way should be found to increase minority numbers because some minorities aren't disadvantaged at all in terms of financially. It's often suggested that everyone should be considered individually based on their own hardships. They often cite the anonymous rich African American that is counted as URM. But what they don't cite are the statistical trends in average income and poverty. The latest census reports that the median incomes for african american and hispanic households was $30,000 and $34,000, respectively. Compare that to the income of Asians and whites which were $57,000 and $49,000, respectively.[1] Poverty is also prevalent for URMs as the poverty rate is double for URMs as compared to non-URMs.[1] When you look at these statistics there is a strong correlation between being URM and being in poverty or having low income. So based on these statistics, when schools are looking at URM they are probably looking at a disadvantaged URM as oppose to a rich one.

What is further discounted is the social disadvantage of being a minority. I think people ignore the fact that we as Americans are not as diverse and accepting as we think we are. These terms are harder to quantify than income but, as a minority myself, I feel this is still relevant even today. Although this is a whole other discussion.

So given the situation, I think that the realistic approach would be to use affirmative action if the end goal is to increase the numbers of URMs in the medical field. Medical schools are dealing with more and more applicants every year and are given the task of sorting them out. If this was considered individually, without some sort of screening then how would that effect the admissions process in terms of time? Would you have to apply only one year ahead? Or would it be longer? It is very crude to try to solve complex socio-economic disparities with a form of discrimination in admissions. But it does tend to get the results desired while the socialites at Yale and Harvard deconstruct the underlying problems in our society and come up with more feasible and fair solutions (which would probably take them, what? 100 Years?).

Links:
[1] http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/income_wealth/005647.html

 

[belgianbeerguy]

Thanks for the links Monday_best. Now that we all have the information at our disposal, we can all come to our own decisions individually. For some of us the cons outweigh the pros ... and vice versa.

yey for democracy.

btw, I didn't mean to sound like I was imposing my opinions on anyone earlier.

 

[photogrl]

Do non-blacks get Under represented status in the NBA or College Basketball? I don't think so. Why should med school be any different?

I can't speak for sports, but I can say that HBCU (Historically Black Colleges and Universities) consider white students to be minorities and they are offered scholarships etc. They get the same 'benefits' at a black college that a black student might get at an all white college.

 

[photogrl]

it would suck if they didn't, but then again, they don't really have your financial info, so i guess not...

According to the Medical College of Wisconsin's website, they require a recent credit check as part of your admission packet. If you fail the credit check and cannot provide proof that you can pay for tuition on your own...MCAT score and GPA be damned....you have a serious chance of not being accepted.

 

[smeagol]

The existence of URM status isn't perfect. Anyone who believes so is kidding themselves. I agree with its ultimate goal but its proposed solution is obviously problematic. In my opinion, it unintentionally promotes a negative sense of racism and for that reason I am against it. However, I am reluctant to vehemently speak out against because I simply don't have a better solution to the problem that it tries to solve.

 

[ShyRem]

The only way to truly get equality among the races is to take race out of the equation. Likewise with gender. It would be darn near impossible to accomplish.

 

[maestro1625]

On a lighter note...I am still smiling from ear to ear about the triumph of the Trojans over the overrated Wolverines at the Rose Bowl...I'm not sure you are a sports fan...but I just wanted to get that off my chest since I have to see your avatar

normally I wouldnt post in such a thread, however I must chime in as SDN's resident Michigan basher. doingmybest seems like a nice enough poster, so at the moment I will refrain from the standard comment of "your weak argument strongly brings to light your Michigan education" that I would reserve for move veteran posters.

I am a sports fan, but I'm not that hardcore or bitter about losing. I love going to games and rooting on my team, but in all honesty, I can admit when we didn't play well enough to win. I didn't watch the game you're referring to, but from what I heard, we did not play well enough to win, so our lose was deserved.

...spoken like a true wolverine, however.

 

[baby methuselah]

Is is that much easier for URMs to get into med schools?

yes, but life isn't fair

 

[Mudfever]

People want an excuse to explain their failures. I didn't get in because its reverse discrimination....

There are instances when AA and welfare and ... are necessary. But no system is perfect and there will always be people who cheat the system. And for the people who think it's not fair, well life isn't "fair" as in getting what you want. Some people are handed things and others work their tail's off to get things. But those who work hard and fight for what they want are much happier in the end, because they know they earned it.

And you can only work on yourself. Instead of finding the faults in the system, figure out what you need to do to get where you want to go and do it, pay the price, or just be miserable.

 

[belgianbeerguy]

great discussion guys. I just one quick question. When some of you say "life is not fair", what exactly do you mean?

In a general sense, yes bad things happen to good people. But the case is different when a policy is set in place that promotes unfairness. Life was certainly not "fair" for black students trying to get a quality education 40 years ago. That was because policies were set in place to set them back. You can't just brush off a policy by saying that life isn't fair. However, you can argue that the ends justify the means, which is a standpoint that I can completely understand (although I disagree).

 

[utersberg11]

Well if patients' comfort about physical appearance, like skin color, is important, I'm sure many patients would feel more comfortable with attractive doctors. I think think the admissions process should start lowering the GPA requirements for doctors who are good looking.

 

[63768]

i think cultural competence and appeasement are the big reasons we have AA and URM. and many of y'all are right, there's no other good system out there to equalize the differences btwn races. i just don't think it makes sense to lower admissions standards to admit someone.

 

[SketchLazy]

Well if patients' comfort about physical appearance, like skin color, is important, I'm sure many patients would feel more comfortable with attractive doctors. I think think the admissions process should start lowering the GPA requirements for doctors who are good looking.

I don't think that I've ever, ever, heard that argument before. I know you said it jokingly, but it is a really good point. I think that I remember some news articles reporting that patients did feel more comfortable with attractive doctors. I wonder how schools would explain the difference in comfort based on race and comfort based on looks. But even if they gave an advantage to good-looking students, I still wouldn't qualify as a URM...cough...

 

[maestro1625]

I don't think that I've ever, ever, heard that argument before. I know you said it jokingly, but it is a really good point. I think that I remember some news articles reporting that patients did feel more comfortable with attractive doctors. I wonder how schools would explain the difference in comfort based on race and comfort based on looks. But even if they gave an advantage to good-looking students, I still wouldn't qualify as a URM...cough...

they already give preference that way. it's called the interview.

 

[monday_best]

Actually, I think you guys are missing the point. The doctor atractiveness thing is not analogous, since there is no empirical evidence to suggest that minority patients are more comforatble with doctors of their own race.

The issues here that AA is supposed to help benefit are minority and underserved patient access and outcomes.

And as for the whole "fairness" issue, life isn't a board game where everyone starts from GO with $200. I think it's pretty short-sighted to assume that things will be more "fair" if we eliminate all policies that encourage diversity, given our national history.

Prejudice does exist, and people tend to help and advocate for the groups they are from more than others (i.e., the "bros before hos" phenomenon). Since certain majority groups have most of the wealth and power in this country... well, you draw the logical conclusion.

For once I would like to see all the people vehemently against AA in these forums talk about what we can feasibly do to solve some of these issues in a "fair" way. People complain about how unfair AA is, but have no apparent drive to help solve the problem except to complain about its externalities on majority groups. I get the impression that if AA were ended tomorrow, none of you would even think about the lack of URMs on your campuses or about the shortage of people serving URM and socioeconomically disadvantaged groups and just go about your business celebrating your rightful, academically merited spot without understanding how what someone wants to make of an opportunity (rather than just how numerically qualified they are for the opportunity) is what really matters.

Which is exactly why we need URMs, because those of you who think the cons outweigh the pros don't seem to be worried at all about the concerns of underserved patients.

 

[SketchLazy]

Actually, I think you guys are missing the point. The doctor atractiveness thing is not analogous, since there is no empirical evidence to suggest that minority patients are more comforatble with doctors of their own race.

The issues here that AA is supposed to help benefit are minority and underserved patient access and outcomes.

And as for the whole "fairness" issue, life isn't a board game where everyone starts from GO with $200. I think it's pretty short-sighted to assume that things will be more "fair" if we eliminate all policies that encourage diversity, given our national history.

Prejudice does exist, and people tend to help and advocate for the groups they are from more than others (i.e., the "bros before hos" phenomenon). Since certain majority groups have most of the wealth and power in this country... well, you draw the logical conclusion.

For once I would like to see all the people vehemently against AA in these forums talk about what we can feasibly do to solve some of these issues in a "fair" way. People complain about how unfair AA is, but have no apparent drive to help solve the problem except to complain about its externalities on majority groups. I get the impression that if AA were ended tomorrow, none of you would even think about the lack of URMs on your campuses or about the shortage of people serving URM and socioeconomically disadvantaged groups and just go about your business celebrating your rightful, academically merited spot without understanding how what someone wants to make of an opportunity (rather than just how numerically qualified they are for the opportunity) is what really matters.

Which is exactly why we need URMs, because those of you who think the cons outweigh the pros don't seem to be worried at all about the concerns of underserved patients.

I like how you made a serious argument but managed to include '...bros before hos...' Classic.

But people don't have to posit their own solutions in order for their criticisms of AA to be valid. They are right when they say AA is pretty crude. Even though they discount the overall picture of why affirmative action is there in the first place, they are right when they say that the process itself isn't fair. They just believe that the ends doesn't justify the means.

 

[belgianbeerguy]

And as for the whole "fairness" issue, life isn't a board game where everyone starts from GO with $200. I think it's pretty short-sighted to assume that things will be more "fair" if we eliminate all policies that encourage diversity, given our national history.

Tell the impoverished coal worker's son "Not only are you starting from GO with $50 (getting a poor education), but you'll also have to score above a 30 in order have a shot at med school" ... yeah yeah, it's very anecdotal ... But just because there are far more underprivileged minorities than non-minorities doesn't make this case any less disheartening.

Prejudice does exist, and people tend to help and advocate for the groups they are from more than others (i.e., the "bros before hos" phenomenon). Since certain majority groups have most of the wealth and power in this country... well, you draw the logical conclusion.

For once I would like to see all the people vehemently against AA in these forums talk about what we can feasibly do to solve some of these issues in a "fair" way. People complain about how unfair AA is, but have no apparent drive to help solve the problem except to complain about its externalities on majority groups.

I think people have posited other solutions:

what someone wants to make of an opportunity (rather than just how numerically qualified they are for the opportunity) is what really matters.

For this issue, I feel that basing AA on socioeconomic status works much better (i think others have mentioned this too). This way, you are giving disadvantaged minorities a leg up without discriminating disadvantaged non-minorities. "If life gives you lemons, make lemonade" ... if someone is able to pull out a 3.1 GPA and 27 MCAT while struggling in other ways (financially, bad family, etc.), then that's DAMN good! This issue has nothing to do with URM, but it sounded like you were bringing up the issue of privileged vs. underprivileged. I don't think we have to resort to race-based AA when this other option exists.

In my opinion, this previous solution seems to ONLY solve the AA problem without taking into account diversity of medical schools as well as diversity among the profession. For this reason, I feel that URM holds water, but only as a temporary fix. The real issue (also explained earlier) is to determine why certain minorities are scoring lower. Do they happen to have different study habits? poor undergrad institutions? We need to get to the heart of the issue.

I sure as hell don't want to go to a medical school with 99% Asian and white students. Like I said before, these minorities with lower stats are no less capable of becoming a doctor than DO students.

 

[bball25]

Well guys i think some of you are missing a very big point. All minorities are not URM's. I'm a minority and I didn't apply as an URM. For that matter I went to an HBCU and none of my classmates applying this round that I know of applied as URM's either. Those of us that got accepted got in based on our scores and gpa's just like everyone else. I assume that since we are still minorities our race still plays some role in the process though. I just want people to realize that all minority students are not hiding behind the URM label in hopes to get an edge on our counterparts. Many minorities, including myself, have been privaledged to attend great educational institutions our entire lives and don't need any labels besides our MCAT and GPA to represent who we are and the hard work we have put into getting where we plan to go.

 

[belgianbeerguy]

Well guys i think some of you are missing a very big point. All minorities are not URM's. I'm a minority and I didn't apply as an URM. For that matter I went to an HBCU and none of my classmates applying this round that I know of applied as URM's either. Those of us that got accepted got in based on our scores and gpa's just like everyone else. I assume that since we are still minorities our race still plays some role in the process though. I just want people to realize that all minority students are not hiding behind the URM label in hopes to get an edge on our counterparts. Many minorities, including myself, have been privaledged to attend great educational institutions our entire lives and don't need any labels besides our MCAT and GPA to represent who we are and the hard work we have put into getting where we plan to go.

Don't mean to call you out, because a lot of people misunderstand what URM is. Being Black is by definition being an URM and I can only assume that you are Black (having attended an HBCU). URM status (as I understand it) includes Blacks, Native Americans, and Hispanics. You are correct in saying that "not ALL minorities are URMs" (ie Middle Easterners, such as myself).

I guess what you're referring to is "underprivileged minorities", which would be UPM.

 

[riceman04]

Don't mean to call you out, because a lot of people misunderstand what URM is. Being Black is by definition being an URM and I can only assume that you are Black (having attended an HBCU). URM status (as I understand it) includes Blacks, Native Americans, and Hispanics. You are correct in saying that "not ALL minorities are URMs" (ie Middle Easterners, such as myself).

I guess what you're referring to is "underprivileged minorities", which would be UPM.

Yeah...I don't understand how people could confuse the two.

And by the way...don't you have to check yourself off as Caucasian, technically?

 

[riceman04]

Well guys i think some of you are missing a very big point. All minorities are not URM's. I'm a minority and I didn't apply as an URM. For that matter I went to an HBCU and none of my classmates applying this round that I know of applied as URM's either. Those of us that got accepted got in based on our scores and gpa's just like everyone else. I assume that since we are still minorities our race still plays some role in the process though. I just want people to realize that all minority students are not hiding behind the URM label in hopes to get an edge on our counterparts. Many minorities, including myself, have been privaledged to attend great educational institutions our entire lives and don't need any labels besides our MCAT and GPA to represent who we are and the hard work we have put into getting where we plan to go.

Then explain:
What is your race/ethnicity?

 

[riceman04]

Have you gotten into med school already because for your future patients sake I hope not. You are really rude. I am not uninformed. I am very well aware of URM and what it means since I am one. What I said before and I will say again is that you have a choice as to whether or not to apply as such. I am not applying as a URM because I don't feel disadvantaged and there are others like me. It's ignorant to think that all blacks or latinos or other minorities are just taking your spots because of URM status. Believe it or not some of us are qualified by our own right and working our a** off the same as you.

YOU IDIOT!!!!! I AM AFRICAN AMERICAN and DEFINITELY in favor of utilizing race-based admissions!!!! You have proven my previous point about premeds (regardless of race). Your stubborn antics have only forced you to not accept the fact that your reasoning is flawed. By DEFINITION you ARE a URM, regardless of your financial status!!! What you are suggesting, my (example of how Bush's No Child Left Behind Program will be a detriment to society) friend, is that minorities (refering to the ones who are underrepresented according to AAMC) apply as URM's ONLY if their stats are not considered competitive. Designated URM status is INDEPENDENT OF QUALITATIVE and QUANTITATIVE ACCOMPLISHMENTS/CHARACTERISICS.

And why am I not surprised you pulled out the b/s "I hope you are not a doctor yet for the sake of your future patients" card...Unfortunately, that is only a reflection of you insecurity and your lackluster ability to SUCK IT UP!!!


Let me see if I can break it down for you by using a rapper analogy to represent your lack of skills: YOU ARE TRINA AND I AM NAS!!!!!! NUFF SAID!

Ciao y buena suerte!!!!!

 

[TheRealMD]

I find it quite odd that people don't know the definitions.

URM = underrepresented minority, a term created by AAMC (I think everyone knows what that stands for), identifying a group of "races"/"ethnicities" that are historically "underrepresented" compared to the national population as a whole. (sorry for all the quotes). As such, by AAMCs definition, all African-Americans, Native Americans, and Hispanics/Latinos are URMs.

Disadvantanged = term the AAMC uses for people identify themselves that they have had to struggle with hardships throughout their life to get where they are today. People who are URMs are NOT automatically disadvantaged and people who are disadvantanged should not be presumed to be URMs.

AA = Affirmitive action. A system used by colleges and medical schools (that I am aware of, I'm sure elsewhere too) to "balance" their school's populations to create a more diverse group.

That's all I wanted to point out for now.

 

[JohnnyOU]

I am an URM and I don't think anyone should get special admissions because of the color of their skin.

and by URM I mean that I am a heterosexual. Very rare these days

 

[Nasrudin]

I am an URM and I don't think anyone should get special admissions because of the color of their skin.

and by URM I mean that I am a heterosexual. Very rare these days

Thank you. Sincerely. You have brought me to the realization. That the pre-allo board is a complete waste of my time. See you on the wards fellas. I can't take any more of this nonsense.

 

[riceman04]

Thank you. Sincerely. You have brought me to the realization. That the pre-allo board is a complete waste of my time. See you on the wards fellas. I can't take any more of this nonsense.

I thought you realized that a while ago Nas!!!!!
Come on dude! I looked up to the fact that you were so detached...hahaha I have finally reached that point and it is great.

 

[Destnd2BMD]

YOU IDIOT!!!!! I AM AFRICAN AMERICAN and DEFINITELY in favor of utilizing race-based admissions!!!! You have proven my previous point about premeds (regardless of race). Your stubborn antics have only forced you to not accept the fact that your reasoning is flawed. By DEFINITION you ARE a URM, regardless of your financial status!!! What you are suggesting, my (example of how Bush's No Child Left Behind Program will be a detriment to society) friend, is that minorities (refering to the ones who are underrepresented according to AAMC) apply as URM's ONLY if their stats are not considered competitive. Designated URM status is INDEPENDENT OF QUALITATIVE and QUANTITATIVE ACCOMPLISHMENTS/CHARACTERISICS.

And why am I not surprised you pulled out the b/s "I hope you are not a doctor yet for the sake of your future patients" card...Unfortunately, that is only a reflection of you insecurity and your lackluster ability to SUCK IT UP!!!


Let me see if I can break it down for you by using a rapper analogy to represent your lack of skills: YOU ARE TRINA AND I AM NAS!!!!!! NUFF SAID!

Ciao y buena suerte!!!!!

I thought SDN was supposed to be a forum for those who wanted to learn and those who are willing to share what they know. That's why I joined. But I see being on here for a few weeks that people are pretty mean and intolerant and I think it's sad. I hadn't made any more posts to this discussion because I understood the point people were making. But you just helped confirm that you are indeed rude and judgemental and I really do hope you work on that before you get your MD.

 

[TheRealMD]

YOU IDIOT!!!!! I AM AFRICAN AMERICAN and DEFINITELY in favor of utilizing race-based admissions!!!! You have proven my previous point about premeds (regardless of race). Your stubborn antics have only forced you to not accept the fact that your reasoning is flawed. By DEFINITION you ARE a URM, regardless of your financial status!!! What you are suggesting, my (example of how Bush's No Child Left Behind Program will be a detriment to society) friend, is that minorities (refering to the ones who are underrepresented according to AAMC) apply as URM's ONLY if their stats are not considered competitive. Designated URM status is INDEPENDENT OF QUALITATIVE and QUANTITATIVE ACCOMPLISHMENTS/CHARACTERISICS.

And why am I not surprised you pulled out the b/s "I hope you are not a doctor yet for the sake of your future patients" card...Unfortunately, that is only a reflection of you insecurity and your lackluster ability to SUCK IT UP!!!


Let me see if I can break it down for you by using a rapper analogy to represent your lack of skills: YOU ARE TRINA AND I AM NAS!!!!!! NUFF SAID!

Ciao y buena suerte!!!!!

This is shameful. I really hope that you don't use your race as a leg up because you'll only find that it means nothing once you're IN med school. Who will help you if you are acting this arrogant now?

 

[belgianbeerguy]

Yeah...I don't understand how people could confuse the two.

And by the way...don't you have to check yourself off as Caucasian, technically?

yeah, I check myself as "caucasian" in all applications. As a side note, this is what infuriates me about ethnicity questions on applications. For one, a lot of people are more than just ONE ethnicity. Furthermore, not everyone fits neatly into a certain box. Just because there aren't many of a certain minority (middle eastern), doesn't mean we don't deserve our own box!

 

[belgianbeerguy]

YOU IDIOT!!!!! I AM AFRICAN AMERICAN and DEFINITELY in favor of utilizing race-based admissions!!!! You have proven my previous point about premeds (regardless of race). Your stubborn antics have only forced you to not accept the fact that your reasoning is flawed. By DEFINITION you ARE a URM, regardless of your financial status!!! What you are suggesting, my (example of how Bush's No Child Left Behind Program will be a detriment to society) friend, is that minorities (refering to the ones who are underrepresented according to AAMC) apply as URM's ONLY if their stats are not considered competitive. Designated URM status is INDEPENDENT OF QUALITATIVE and QUANTITATIVE ACCOMPLISHMENTS/CHARACTERISICS.

And why am I not surprised you pulled out the b/s "I hope you are not a doctor yet for the sake of your future patients" card...Unfortunately, that is only a reflection of you insecurity and your lackluster ability to SUCK IT UP!!!


Let me see if I can break it down for you by using a rapper analogy to represent your lack of skills: YOU ARE TRINA AND I AM NAS!!!!!! NUFF SAID!

Ciao y buena suerte!!!!!

btw, you really shouldn't go around insulting people just because they're ignorant to certain definitions that according to you are implied and obvious. Not everyone is as naturally brilliant when it comes to AAMC definitions as you are . It's one thing to get into a heated discussion regarding real issues, but quite another to attack someone's character. Just about all of us are going to be doctors some day, and you really don't want to burn bridges amonst colleagues.

 

[riceman04]

btw, you really shouldn't go around insulting people just because they're ignorant to certain definitions that according to you are implied and obvious. Not everyone is as naturally brilliant when it comes to AAMC definitions as you are . It's one thing to get into a heated discussion regarding real issues, but quite another to attack someone's character. Just about all of us are going to be doctors some day, and you really don't want to burn bridges amonst colleagues.

I agree! I probably should not have said she was uninformed (or given a rebuttal to her diatribe of my personality). But what infuriated me was that it seemed as though she was implicitly attempting to deny her heritage/minority status for the sake of appearing "honorable."

Not everyone is as naturally brilliant when it comes to AAMC definitions as you are .

Yeah...so the sarcasm is unecessary as well...especially since you are trying to teach me a lesson..."father"

 

[belgianbeerguy]

But what infuriated me was that it seemed as though she was implicitly attempting to deny her heritage/minority status for the sake of appearing "honorable."

yeah it is pretty hilarious when people do that. I just assumed she wasn't aware that she was in fact denying her heritage

 

[Jadyn]

URM = African American, Native American, etc

But not all black people are African American

Therefore, not all black people are URM.

 

[TheRealMD]

URM = African American, Native American, etc

But not all black people are African American

Therefore, not all black people are URM.

Because AMCAS does not make such a fine distinction and they are always grouped together anyway in real life, all blacks are URMs.

And why did you revive this old thread?

 

[Decicco]

No.
People should be judged by the content of their character and not the color of their skin (to paraphrase martin Luther King)

 

[HreComesTheSun]

Because AMCAS does not make such a fine distinction and they are always grouped together anyway in real life, all blacks are URMs.

And why did you revive this old thread?

this is not true, jadyn is correct...having overheard some admissions meetings, when they are reviewing urm applicants, they are specifically looking at blacks who are african american

 

[riceman04]

This is shameful. I really hope that you don't use your race as a leg up because you'll only find that it means nothing once you're IN med school. Who will help you if you are acting this arrogant now?

No, what is shameful is the fact that both you and the other person, for some reason, seek to somehow distance yourself from how you will inevitably be characterized. Sure, it is great to establish yourself as a qualified minority applicant...but that should never be at the expense of who you are. When you made your post in the other thread regarding how you DELIBERATELY chose a field of study that would demonstrate how different you are from other URM's (I believe you discussed sports and what not), I wanted to hang my head in shame. That should NEVER be a reason for pursuing a dream. There are so many ways to demonstrate your talents and ecclectic nature...so why focus so much on race? Why are you so entwined with what others think about you b/c you happen to be black (black african in your case)? You speak of my arrogance and yet you obviously do not realize how disingenuous and pretentious you come across.

I won't apologize for allowing my race to utilized as a factor in admissions. Why apologize for something over which I have no control. Regardless, I do know that I am quite qualified for medical school.

I will admit, as have already done, that I did go overboard in my acerbic response to the other person....and I have moved on.

I so hope that WHEN you interview at Baylor you don't deliberately try and separate yourself from ALL OTHER URM's...Dr. Phillips will see right through it and questions your motives.

Good luck youngster (not being sarcastic)

 

[DoctaJay]

Should Race Be A Consideration In Medical School Admissions?

I don't think Race should be a consideration in Medical School Admissions. Why can't the same standards be applied to all applicants?

By giving out URM status to certian groups. Medical schools give them an unfair advantage over others and while at the same time implying that they should be held to lower standards, that some how they aren't good enough to be held to the same standards as everyone else.

Here's a little help for your research on AA:

Underrepresented Minorities Get in Easier: UNFAIR: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=332544
MCRI battles AA in Michigan: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=331226
AA totally out of control?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=324769
Who agrees with affirmative action?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=323889
Amazing URM fact-oid:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=306866
So when do the less qualified people get invites?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=315055
Diversity in Med School:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=262097
Howard, Moorehouse, and Meharry SOM'S....low GPAs?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=309219
affirmative action thread:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=46604
what is URM?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=306827
URM Status:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=12020
URM status:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=286946
You thought we have it bad. Check this out:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=286302
What is the advantge to being an URM when applying?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=285817
whats the difference between ethnicity and race?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=283152
native american-how much blood to be considered URM?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=281362
URM acceptance rates – confused:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=270608
My Skin Is 'White,' but I'm Gonna Claim URM Status. Any Thoughts?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=274301
Hispanic Applicants and AA:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=235379
URM benefits???:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=239656
Someone is getting into these schools with below-average scores...:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=235599
AA in med:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=235528
Do you think it is wrong to put myself down as a minority?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=234632
ethnicity a factor in acceptance?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=234441
Does being hispanic help?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=233933
Asians: ORM= really bad news?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=221780
Who's this African American URM?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=221853
Someone is getting into these schools with below-average scores...:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=235599
Affirmative Action - Med School Admis:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=215366
Minority Acceptance:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=208025
Affirmative Action!!:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=203685
Affirmative Action in Medical Schools?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=203601
Minorities in med school:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=190172
"Let Asians compete freely with white students.":http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=70922
Affirmative Action Again!!!:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=186948
Disadvantage if Asian-American male?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=182886
Interesting aa article (NYTIMES):http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=179526
Affirmative action:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=175977
Marginalization of average white males:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=174092
Under-represented groups:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=173587
affirmative action:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=168516
Reverse affirmative action?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=165859
Message to all Pre-Meds regarding AA:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=162406
does 1/4 URM count?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=159790
Diversity disappointment:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=155920
Am I URM?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=151874
Study: Too few minorities in health care:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=150933
AA - thoughts on overrepresentation as well:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=141039
More on Affirmative Action:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=132594
A note about Affirmative action:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=134799
It's sad to be asian:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=134683
Not just another Affirmative Action thread.:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=133164
Underrepresented in Medicine and the ethnicity breakdown in the US:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=119146
Some asians may have a legit reason to want URM status but...:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=119131
Affirmative Action and Diversity in Admissions:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=95471
"Underrepresented":http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=116785
Affirmative Action and Med School Application:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=111772
reply about the "problems with asians" thread:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=85539
Another thought on Affirmative Action:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=102358
Afirmative Action and its place in MEDICINE!:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=102533
Why Is an Affirmative Action Debate Moved From Pre-Allo:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=102369
for URMs (and ORMs) : serious discussion.:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=53999
The Problem with AA:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=96949
AA: Why does everyone get so worked up?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=96133
Affirmative Action:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=95297
I don't Want To Start Another War on Here But Guys I Was Just Checking Out Stats...:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=86457
Affirmative Action:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=87760
Historically Black Medical Schools:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=78969
why do we have AA for grad school??:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=76640
retire affirmative action thread?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=75569
Why Asian American Students Succeed:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=74452
We are neglecting the meaningful questions relating to AA:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=74149
The official AAAAAA thread:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=74168
An ORM who sides with the URM folks.:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=71199
Rallying my fellow URMs:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=68499
AA the thread to end all threads....:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=73478
AA and nonURM minorities:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=73161
If you like/dislike AA, watch Dateline RIGHT NOW:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=71384
AA Solution? Need feedback.:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=71935
Sobering realities and statistics of AA:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=71823
Why URM's should NOT worry about the Supreme Courts' decision.:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=70811
Why Are Black Students Lagging?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=71103
Applying Disadvantaged- Affirmative Action for UC Schools?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=68067
Why do WHITES complain about AA???:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=66957
Rich URM's vs. poor whites and Asians:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=65768
AAMC president on diversity:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=67316
Why is diversity of ethnicity sooo important?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=66935
A solution to selection by race...Individualism:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=65919
An Alternative to AA:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=66037
I am sick of people complaining about AA and URMs:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=65889
Minorities in Medicine:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=62673
am I a URM?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=61718
Ignore Affirmative Action:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=46603
Why do non-URM envy the so-called "advantage" the URM have for admissions?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=48465
CNN AA Poll:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=56293
What are your most recent feeling towards the debate about Affirmative Action?come in:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=56307
Chances as a ORM??? UGHHH:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=53809
underepresented minority edge:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=51799
U.Michigan: Lack of Diversity?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=45309
revealing ethnic identity:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=43576
Do Adcoms compare GPAs and MCATs by URM status?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=320954
RACISM, Foriegn MED Students/Doctors and the REASON's WHY:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=317813
Different playing field for URMs: MCAT and GPA:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=313272
Justification to admit URMs:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=313510
opinion on URM..repeat? dont care:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=372527
Should Race Be A Consideration In Medical School Admissions?:http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=405510

 

[DoctaJay]

Look at the attachment below starting at slide #13. Its a very interesting PPT presentation.

 

[riceman04]

Actually, it would NOT benefit me. It would actually harm me.

I think that every person should be judged on their own merits. If we are so concerned about racism, we should leave off the "race" blank. Race is meaningless anyway. If anything is meaningful, its "poverty" and economic status.

I agree with your last sentence for sure!

 

[riceman04]

Look at the attachment below starting at slide #13. Its a very interesting PPT presentation.

So, have you moved out to Cali yet?

You will be at the big LLU, right? (delete if you don't want people to know)

For the most part San Bernadino is cool...it just gets really hot in the summer.

P.S. Watch out for the rattlesnakes...A famous venom specialist is actually an ER doc at LLU.

Also, let me know if you want any tips on where to find some good and cheap spots to chill (jazz clubs, poetry clubs, good soul food joints, good eateries in general, etc.)

Best of luck to you and your wife (wait...you guys are married now, right?)

 

[Nasrudin]

No, what is shameful is the fact that both you and the other person, for some reason, seek to somehow distance yourself from how you will inevitably be characterized. Sure, it is great to establish yourself as a qualified minority applicant...but that should never be at the expense of who you are. When you made your post in the other thread regarding how you DELIBERATELY chose a field of study that would demonstrate how different you are from other URM's (I believe you discussed sports and what not), I wanted to hang my head in shame. That should NEVER be a reason for pursuing a dream. There are so many ways to demonstrate your talents and ecclectic nature...so why focus so much on race? Why are you so entwined with what others think about you b/c you happen to be black (black african in your case)? You speak of my arrogance and yet you obviously do not realize how disingenuous and pretentious you come across.

I won't apologize for allowing my race to utilized as a factor in admissions. Why apologize for something over which I have no control. Regardless, I do know that I am quite qualified for medical school.

I will admit, as have already done, that I did go overboard in my acerbic response to the other person....and I have moved on.

I so hope that WHEN you interview at Baylor you don't deliberately try and separate yourself from ALL OTHER URM's...Dr. Phillips will see right through it and questions your motives.

Good luck youngster (not being sarcastic)

Mr. Riceman,

I would just like to say that you are credit to the human race and I am happy to know that you are on your way to a bright career in medicine. You handle disparaging points of view with grace and optimism. You always take a kind step towards reconciling the people behind the arguments. These are the qualities of a good statesman and will serve you well. Cheers!--Nas.

 

[TheRealMD]

No, what is shameful is the fact that both you and the other person, for some reason, seek to somehow distance yourself from how you will inevitably be characterized. Sure, it is great to establish yourself as a qualified minority applicant...but that should never be at the expense of who you are. When you made your post in the other thread regarding how you DELIBERATELY chose a field of study that would demonstrate how different you are from other URM's (I believe you discussed sports and what not), I wanted to hang my head in shame. That should NEVER be a reason for pursuing a dream. There are so many ways to demonstrate your talents and ecclectic nature...so why focus so much on race? Why are you so entwined with what others think about you b/c you happen to be black (black african in your case)? You speak of my arrogance and yet you obviously do not realize how disingenuous and pretentious you come across.

I won't apologize for allowing my race to utilized as a factor in admissions. Why apologize for something over which I have no control. Regardless, I do know that I am quite qualified for medical school.

I will admit, as have already done, that I did go overboard in my acerbic response to the other person....and I have moved on.

I so hope that WHEN you interview at Baylor you don't deliberately try and separate yourself from ALL OTHER URM's...Dr. Phillips will see right through it and questions your motives.

Good luck youngster (not being sarcastic)

It's not that I distance myself from it, it's that I don't identify with many of their problems (my parents are first-generation immigrants). So to me, it's not running away because the only thing that I really have in common with them is skin color and nothing else. I dislike being grouped when we are completely separate, but most people ignore that it seems.

I'm still wondering why people debate the whole definition of a URM thing... if there were a checkbox, I'd understand, but you just mark your ethnicity and move on. Whether we as applicants have control over the process or not, it's out of our hands so I don't worry about it to much.

As for the interview at Baylor, I plan on being myself. That's the only advice I really follow.