Since when does med school= nursing?

[demayette]

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Dentists and psychologists aren't trying to play the roles of physicians. They're doing their own thing which is fine. The problem is when someone uses the title of doctor and then plays the role expected by society of a physician while not having the credentials they expect with it. No one expects their dentist or psychologist to be an MD.

Of course dentists are doctors. Regarding Psy.D/Ph.D psychologists, I noticed some patients/staffs get confused and thought they were physician psychiatrists. That was my impression when I was working at an ALF...

 

[tdram]

Of course dentists are doctors. Regarding Psy.D/Ph.D psychologists, I noticed some patients/staffs get confused and thought they were physician psychiatrists. That was my impression when I was working at an ALF...

I guess that is confusing. Wonder what the psychiatrists here have to say about that.

 

[BobbyB]

I guess that is confusing. Wonder what the psychiatrists here have to say about that.

if the patient is misinformed about the differences between a doctor and a physician, we should be informing the patient. we shouldn't be trying to implement policy to avoid the situation.

 

[tdram]

if the patient is misinformed about the differences between a doctor and a physician, we should be informing the patient. we shouldn't be trying to implement policy to avoid the situation.

I agree with you, but it's not so easy when a lot of our patients are not that well educated and can't really understand the differences. We shouldn't be making it more confusing by adding more different types of people to the title of 'doctor'.

 

[BobbyB]

I agree with you, but it's not so easy when a lot of our patients are not that well educated and can't really understand the differences. We shouldn't be making it more confusing by adding more different types of people to the title of 'doctor'.

i understand. that is why some professionals don't use the term doctor in a clinical setting. that is professional courtesy, not obligation.

we don't control who gets to be called doctor or what programs can offer doctorates.

 

[tdram]

i understand. that is why some professionals don't use the term doctor in a clinical setting. that is professional courtesy, not obligation.

we don't control who gets to be called doctor or what programs can offer doctorates.

True, but if I owned a hospital, I'd make sure only physicians called themselves doctors in a clinical setting, because I don't want any of my patients to be surprised when they thought they were being cared for by an MD but it was actually a nurse instead. Not so good for liability either.

 

[BobbyB]

True, but if I owned a hospital, I'd make sure only physicians called themselves doctors in a clinical setting, because I don't want any of my patients to be surprised when they thought they were being cared for by an MD but it was actually a nurse instead. Not so good for liability either.

if you owned a hospital, you'd have a nursing union rep threatening to sue you for denying a NP their right to call themselves doctors.

 

[Essee]

Yeah the white coat has basically become the "uniform" of healthcare. Everyone in the hospital wears one nowadays. I think we should just all stop wearing them because they're an unnecessary hassle and a vector of disease since people don't wash them all that often.

At the hospital I used to work at, even some of the admin assistants wore a white coat while walking around the hospital. Needless to say I was confused why that was necessary.

 

[tdram]

if you owned a hospital, you'd have a nursing union rep threatening to sue you for denying a NP their right to call themselves doctors.

They can't sue for that. Calling yourself something isn't a right. In a business it's the company's choice what title you're allowed to use while on their premises.

 

[tdram]

At the hospital I used to work at, even some of the admin assistants wore a white coat while walking around the hospital. Needless to say I was confused why that was necessary.

Makes them feel important. Companies love ways to make employees feel like they're getting more without actually paying them more.

 

[demayette]

They can't sue for that. Calling yourself something isn't a right. In a business it's the company's choice what title you're allowed to use while on their premises.

The nursing organizations always win every battle--the public is very sympathetic to them...

 

[tdram]

The nursing organizations always win every battle--the public is very sympathetic to them...

That's true, which is why we need a better approach. I don't know how sympathetic they will be when they realize how variable and unpredictable NP training can be. WOuld they want an NP to take care of their child now?

 

[BobbyB]

They can't sue for that. Calling yourself something isn't a right. In a business it's the company's choice what title you're allowed to use while on their premises.

they don't need to win. they just need to make you spend a lot in a lawsuit. it makes them look like they are doing something to defend the rights of nurses. you will be villified.

how do you think your next contract negotiations with the nursing union will go? they will demand you remove your doctor rule or no deal. your logical reason will be ignored. fighting for this makes them look strong.

i can already see the union rep speech when he addresses the nurses after negotiations. "Nurses are the hardest working people I know, but they never get any appreciation. That is why i was outraged when Dr. tdram made a rule banning NPs from calling themselves doctors. He doesn't appreciate you and the sacrifices you made."

 

[demayette]

That's true, which is why we need a better approach. I don't know how sympathetic they will be when they realize how variable and unpredictable NP training can be. WOuld they want an NP to take care of their child now?

Most of the time the public do not know 'who is who' and now many outpatient clinics are very deceptive in their business practice... Many times I make an appointment with my PCP (physician) and when I got there, the person at the front desk informs me that the physician is not there and if I want to see the NP (what am I supposed to do?)... Many physicians are also aiding these people (NP) because they want to make a quick buck...

 

[tdram]

they don't need to win. they just need to make you spend a lot in a lawsuit. it makes them look like they are doing something to defend the rights of nurses. you will be villified.

how do you think your next contract negotiations with the nursing union will go? they will demand you remove your doctor rule or no deal. your logical reason will be ignored. fighting for this makes them look strong.

i can already see the union rep speech when he addresses the nurses after negotiations. "Nurses are the hardest working people I know, but they never get any appreciation. That is why i was outraged when Dr. tdram made a rule banning NPs from calling themselves doctors. He doesn't appreciate you and the sacrifices you made."

Most nurses aren't NPs and don't care about the NP's right to be called doctor. A lot of them seem to despise the NPs. I don't see them striking for that purpose.

 

[demayette]

they don't need to win. they just need to make you spend a lot in a lawsuit. it makes them look like they are doing something to defend the rights of nurses. you will be villified.

how do you think your next contract negotiations with the nursing union will go? they will demand you remove your doctor rule or no deal. your logical reason will be ignored. fighting for this makes them look strong.

i can already see the union rep speech when he addresses the nurses after negotiations. "Nurses are the hardest working people I know, but they never get any appreciation. That is why i was outraged when Dr. tdram made a rule banning NPs from calling themselves doctors. He doesn't appreciate you and the sacrifices you made."

That is why I think that Missouri law will do a lot put a break on the NP movement... I am hoping other states follow suit....

 

[AsclepiusMD]

True, my school is actually 54% female.

Ayooo! Can I come hang out? The almighty Asclepius needs to get his swerve on.

 

[dadaddadaBATMAN]

They are doctors, but they are NOT physicians... I am not sure how that work in clinical settings... Are they allowed to introduce themselves as doctors?

Tdram put it well. The problem isn't the title "doctor," which has been being abused for a long time (how many fake "doctors" have you seen on TV), but rather that you're in a hospital doing similar jobs to physicians. This indicates equivalence between the two degrees which simply does not exist. This issue is not a problem for a dentist, psychologist, audiologist, pharmacist, etc.

As for the clinical question, my understanding is that it varies from hospital to hospital and between regions. There are numerous people here who are more qualified to answer that question than I am though.

I'm just irritated because I said something, which people seemed determined to deliberately misunderstand. Even with clarification, I get back denseness. It is enough to make me think that I am just being trolled.

I think it is important because it shows that some people here are so worked up about the idea of advanced practice nurses that they have a grudge against even those nurses that are clearly NOT trying to usurp the physicians role. There is a knee jerk anti-nurse sentiment on SDN. I feel it deserves to be commented upon.

I think you're reading more emotion into this sentiment than exists. Very few people here take issue with nurses, most go out of their way to point out how invaluable they are. What gets the knee jerk anger is DNPs.

However, I am sorry if you or the other poster have been offended by anything I or anyone else have said, and I'll try to be more discerning in the future.

 

[fancymylotus]

Of course dentists are doctors. Regarding Psy.D/Ph.D psychologists, I noticed some patients/staffs get confused and thought they were physician psychiatrists. That was my impression when I was working at an ALF...

I...what? I cant even rn

 

[dr.sartorius]

I feel like a lot of confusion around what the general public thinks "med school" means is because those in nursing programs, medical assistant programs, and other medically related programs say they are in medical school when they are in fact not. For example a friend in nursing school will post pics and hashtag medschool in the caption (#medschool #medschoolproblems) this is true for a lot of others who aren't even in med school. The general public has no idea what med school even means. Things like this kind of irritates me: this girl tried convincing everyone she was in "medical school" when she was in fact studying medical billing. People were asking her what med school she went to but she would avoid answering those questions. If you want to be in med school then go to med school, don't try convincing others that you're something that you're not.

edit: sorry about the rant lol

 

[tdram]

I feel like a lot of confusion around what the general public thinks "med school" means is because those in nursing programs, medical assistant programs, and other medically related programs say they are in medical school when they are in fact not. For example a friend in nursing school will post pics and hashtag medschool in the caption (#medschool #medschoolproblems) this is true for a lot of others who aren't even in med school. The general public has no idea what med school even means. Things like this kind of irritates me: this girl tried convincing everyone she was in "medical school" when she was in fact studying medical billing. People were asking her what med school she went to but she would avoid answering those questions. If you want to be in med school then go to med school, don't try convincing others that you're something that you're not.

edit: sorry about the rant lol

Yeah this sort of thing is annoying. The funny thing is a lot of my classmates tell people they're in "Graduate school", which is doing the exact opposite. Interesting, isn't it?

 

[dr.sartorius]

Yeah this sort of thing is annoying. The funny thing is a lot of my classmates tell people they're in "Graduate school", which is doing the exact opposite. Interesting, isn't it?

I sometimes do that only because I don't want to come off a certain way, you get some people who give you a weird look or begin acting rude once they know you're becoming a doctor, for whatever reason they feel threatened or something. If its a stranger and I don't feel like it's their business I say grad school, once they ask more questions I say i'm studying medicine, if they don't then I leave it at that.

 

[tdram]

I sometimes do that only because I don't want to come off a certain way, you get some people who give you a weird look or begin acting rude once they know you're becoming a doctor, for whatever reason they feel threatened or something.

What's wrong with our society and achievement? We should be celebrating people who achieve. Instead we celebrate totally useless people like reality TV stars.

In our society, if a doctor is proud of his achievement - he's pretentious. If a doctor makes a good living - he's greedy. On the other hand, when a rapper raps about how many cars and homes and boats he owns, people turn him into a god and line up to buy his album.

 

[dr.sartorius]

What's wrong with our society and achievement? We should be celebrating people who achieve. Instead we celebrate totally useless people like reality TV stars.

In our society, if a doctor is proud of his achievement - he's pretentious. If a doctor makes a good living - he's greedy. On the other hand, when a rapper raps about how many cars and homes and boats he owns, people turn him into a god and line up to buy his album.

Very true, I feel divided, a part of me is very proud and it's something I worked my a$$ for, but a part of me feels like it's pretentious (probably because of some of the reactions i've received). A also hated saying I was pre-med, I thought that sounded pretentious and meaningless since everyone said it and only 10% ended up actually meaning it and going through with it lol.

 

[greenlion]

There is only ONE way to stop this once and for all- legislation.
Here in florida there was bill S.B. 612: Health Care Practicioners

It was short and specific- prohbiting: "
Introducing oneself with the title of “doctor” by a
17 person licensed under chapter 464 while rendering health care
18 services without orally disclosing that the licensee is a nurse
19 practitioner, doctor of nursing practice, or the corresponding
20 appropriate title that corresponds with the person’s license.

It OF COURSE died. The nursing profession is actually much more politically vocal. There was even a very popular change.org petition against it along with streams of posts on nursing and especially CRNA forums with numbers to call legislators and bi*tch. It was an organized tsunami for nurse's right to call themselves doctors.

So people- politics. Politics politics politics.

 

[tdram]

There is only ONE way to stop this once and for all- legislation.
Here in florida there was bill S.B. 612: Health Care Practicioners

It was short and specific- prohbiting: "
Introducing oneself with the title of “doctor” by a
17 person licensed under chapter 464 while rendering health care
18 services without orally disclosing that the licensee is a nurse
19 practitioner, doctor of nursing practice, or the corresponding
20 appropriate title that corresponds with the person’s license.

It OF COURSE died. The nursing profession is actually much more politically vocal. There was even a very popular change.org petition against it along with streams of posts on nursing and especially CRNA forums with numbers to call legislators and bi*tch. It was an organized tsunami for nurse's right to call themselves doctors.

So people- politics. Politics politics politics.

You're right, and it's sad. We keep complaining but when it comes time to do something, no one does.

Doctors today are a shell of what they used to be. Everyone steps on doctors nowadays. What happened to the sense of upholding the profession?

 

[tdram]

As doctors and future doctors, we need to protect our brand. Apple would not sit by idly while another company brought out a cheap knockoff product and sold it as an 'iPhone'. Why are we sitting idly while nurses are imitating us and reducing the value of our brand?

 

[demayette]

@tdram .. Not trying to be a debby downer here, but it seems like it's too late...

 

[GUH]

I'm a dude and I've gotten the "so you want to be a nurse?" comment when I tell folks I'm in med school.
Surprisingly as a DO student I haven't gotten the optometrist comment yet but I'm sure it'll come sooner or later!

 

[fab4fan]

Most nurses aren't NPs and don't care about the NP's right to be called doctor. A lot of them seem to despise the NPs. I don't see them striking for that purpose.

I had to go to the doctor (as in the real McCoy doctor) for a pre-op H&P. Guess who did it? An NP student. I wasn't happy, but at least my doc came in then and reviewed things. It was a long day getting pre-op testing, so by the time I got to the doctor's office, I no longer had the fight in me to tell the NP student to take a hike. I have done so in the past with NP and PA students there.

 

[greenlion]

@tdram .. Not trying to be a debby downer here, but it seems like it's too late...

why?

 

[demayette]

why?

The nursing movement is gaining more ground and more state legislatures are expanding their scope. They think that physicians are overeducated and that lot of stuff that physicians learn are useless (premed & med school)... Now they (NPs) even want to right to do 'minor' surgeries with one year post grad training (unbelievable)... Visit allnursesdotcom and you will understand what I am talking about... I don't see how physicians are going to reverse that trend when more states are giving NPs more practice right.

 

[demayette]

I had to go to the doctor (as in the real McCoy doctor) for a pre-op H&P. Guess who did it? An NP student. I wasn't happy, but at least my doc came in then and reviewed things. It was a long day getting pre-op testing, so by the time I got to the doctor's office, I no longer had the fight in me to tell the NP student to take a hike. I have done so in the past with NP and PA students there.

I think PAs are ok since they go thru rigorous training and are under the BOM...

 

[Qester]

I think PAs are ok since they go thru rigorous training and are under the BOM...

I am not entirely familiar with the PA schooling/training/licensing process but isn't it similar to 2-3 years of training without a residency, after an undergraduate degree in any field?

 

[demayette]

I am not entirely familiar with the PA schooling/training/licensing process but isn't it similar to 2-3 years of training without a residency, after an undergraduate degree in any field?

Here a typical PA curriculum... And their prereqs are almost similar to med school prereqs... You can have an undegrad in any thing for med school as well, but PA school requires some clinical hours (usually in the form of direct contact)...

http://www.nova.edu/chcs/pa/fortlauderdale/timeline.html

 

[Qester]

Here a typical PA curriculum... And their prereqs are almost similar to med school prereqs... You can have an undegrad in any thing for med school as well, but PA school requires some clinical hours (usually in the form of direct contact)...

http://www.nova.edu/chcs/pa/fortlauderdale/timeline.html

Thanks for the quick reply! How in your view does this differ from a DNP curriculum (bachelor of nursing, masters in nursing, doctorate of nurse practitioner)?

 

[demayette]

Thanks for the quick reply! How in your view does this differ from a DNP curriculum (bachelor of nursing, masters in nursing, doctorate of nurse practitioner)?

I think PA curriculum is better and it's standardized...as opposed to NP/DNP where anything goes. Many classes can be taken online.. NP requires only 600 clinical hours (and most of the time these hours are observer-ship hours).

Here is an NP curriculum for comparison: http://online.southuniversity.edu/d...rsing-msn-nurse-practitioner.aspx#course-list ....and these are two tracks (Family and Adult NP)...

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I saw this little gem on my news feed this morning:

If this is serious, you need to report it to her hospital. As a future physician you should know that withholding medical orders can have life or death consequences. I doubt this time that happened, but a person like this could get into a scenario where they murder someone and should be fired and reported to the board immediately.

 

[ChrisGriffen]

I just want to know when nurses started wearing long white coats. I want to take trauma shears and trim those damn things up.

 

[drcrispmd]

I just want to know when nurses started wearing long white coats. I want to take trauma shears and trim those damn things up.

Nursing students wear long white coats too. I have seen some that do not have any name tags and patients thinking they are docs.

 

[KnuxNole]

Lots of people wear long white coats. The CNAs, people who take blood, students are starting to wear them now too.

 

[Promethean]

Nursing students wear long white coats too. I have seen some that do not have any name tags and patients thinking they are docs.

My hospital issued them to us with the requirement that we wear them as cover-ups outside the OR. (i.e. if you go to the cafeteria for lunch, you are supposed to have your white coat on to keep your scrubs from becoming contaminated.) Very few people wear them.

When I was a nursing student, I was required to purchase one. I don't think I ever wore it once, but it was a mandatory part of our uniform.

I get it that short white coats (in some places) indicate medical students while longer ones indicate doctors, but white coats didn't originate with physicians. I think that the problem of role confusion in clinical settings goes way deeper than uniforms, and focusing on such a superficiality does a disservice to the more important issues.

Yes, patients need to be able to identify which healthcare provider has what degree of training, and what that means for their care. @ChrisGriffen 's thoughts about cutting off another persons clothing because he doesn't think that they have earned the right to wear it doesn't seem like a very mature response to the problem. Especially if they may not have been given much choice in whether to wear it.

EDIT: Oh, right! I forgot about phlebotomists wearing lab coats! Yeah, they were always required to wear those when they came to draw the patient's labs... you know, before they took the samples down to the.. lab.

 

[Promethean]

I just want to know when nurses started wearing long white coats. I want to take trauma shears and trim those damn things up.

I just read this aloud to my friend who is an attending. She remarked that you should totally do this and see how it goes for you.

 

[KnuxNole]

Honestly, I think I see doctors as the only ones who don't wear a white coat in the hospital setting :X

 

[Promethean]

Honestly, I think I see doctors as the only ones who don't wear a white coat in the hospital setting :X

I don't wear one because it is disgusting. The idea of wearing a lab coat that basically never gets laundered as a means of avoiding contamination strikes me as total BS. The hospitals want everyone running around in them because they like the way that looks to the uninformed. We aren't allowed to take them home to launder them ourselves, and it takes so long to get them back if you have the hospital launder them that we have given up on wearing them at all. If you have to leave the OR, you put on a cloth surgical gown. Not only is it actually clean when you put it on, but it is impervious to liquids. And since it is washed out blue rather than white, you don't have to be afraid of psychos with trauma shears.

It is hard to know who is who in the hospital. We have all been issued little cards that hang below our badges that give our title "RN" "Physician" "Technician" etc.

The problem is that most people wear their badges on lanyards than hang between their breasts or on their belt so that they hang near their crotch. People always look like they are trying to peer at one another's privates.

 

[KnuxNole]

OR, maybe they want people to notice their big cantaloupes or how well endowed they are

 

[Wordead]

Case Management wears white coats, that battle was lost a long time ago.

 

[tdram]

I don't wear one because it is disgusting. The idea of wearing a lab coat that basically never gets laundered as a means of avoiding contamination strikes me as total BS. The hospitals want everyone running around in them because they like the way that looks to the uninformed. We aren't allowed to take them home to launder them ourselves, and it takes so long to get them back if you have the hospital launder them that we have given up on wearing them at all. If you have to leave the OR, you put on a cloth surgical gown. Not only is it actually clean when you put it on, but it is impervious to liquids. And since it is washed out blue rather than white, you don't have to be afraid of psychos with trauma shears.

It is hard to know who is who in the hospital. We have all been issued little cards that hang below our badges that give our title "RN" "Physician" "Technician" etc.

The problem is that most people wear their badges on lanyards than hang between their breasts or on their belt so that they hang near their crotch. People always look like they are trying to peer at one another's privates.

I agree with you. The white coats are a vector for disease because they never get washed. They can also be pretty uncomfortable if it's hot. The only upside is that they have a lot of pockets that you can put stuff in. I would rather not wear a white coat at all.

Distinguishing who is who in the hospital is pretty difficult, especially for the patient who is having trouble seeing or reading, or the patient who is not well educated about the healthcare system. I'm not sure how to solve that problem. It certainly would be easier if each type of professional in the hospital had a different uniform. Everyone wearing white coats makes it impossible.

 

[Psai]

Honestly, I think I see doctors as the only ones who don't wear a white coat in the hospital setting :X

Lol none of my residents wear it so I stopped for a while but started again because it was cold in the hospital

 

[Southplains]

I don't wear one because it is disgusting. The idea of wearing a lab coat that basically never gets laundered as a means of avoiding contamination strikes me as total BS. The hospitals want everyone running around in them because they like the way that looks to the uninformed. We aren't allowed to take them home to launder them ourselves, and it takes so long to get them back if you have the hospital launder them that we have given up on wearing them at all. If you have to leave the OR, you put on a cloth surgical gown. Not only is it actually clean when you put it on, but it is impervious to liquids. And since it is washed out blue rather than white, you don't have to be afraid of psychos with trauma shears.

It is hard to know who is who in the hospital. We have all been issued little cards that hang below our badges that give our title "RN" "Physician" "Technician" etc.

The problem is that most people wear their badges on lanyards than hang between their breasts or on their belt so that they hang near their crotch. People always look like they are trying to peer at one another's privates.

Haha so true. As a new student in the hospital, my curiosity about faculty and residents always has me trying to read their coat/badges, and I'm always afraid they'll think I'm just stealing a glance.