Skeletons in the closet

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Yizzle

Junior Member
10+ Year Member
15+ Year Member
Joined
May 1, 2006
Messages
14
Reaction score
0
Back when I was wee lad, i.e. a high school student, I took some courses at a local community college and did not apply myself whatsoever. I ended up with a 2.8 GPA for just under 30 credits. I never transferred these grades to the university I currently attend, so they do not appear on my transcript. But I'm putting together my AMCAS application and I'm afraid that if I list these grades, they'll put some serious hurt into my standing. What should I do?
 
Best thing to do is call AMCAS and ask them about this. Consult the AMCAS website for their number.
 
As much as it sucks, you gotta list them. Just because they're not on your current school's transcript doesn't mean they'll slip through the cracks.
 
GoJoeyMojo said:
As much as it sucks, you gotta list them. Just because they're not on your current school's transcript doesn't mean they'll slip through the cracks.


Is there some master database or something where they punch in my SSN and get the history?
 
Yizzle said:
Is there some master database or something where they punch in my SSN and get the history?

nah

if i remember correctly the amcas just asks for any courses you have taken at any university (public or community or private) during the course of your undergraduate studies. Since you said you never transferred those comm. college credits back in high school I think you should be okay even if you don't list them...but still double check with amcas. This is one of those things you dont wanna screw up cuz its very simple to do and screwing it up could seriously hamper your application.

gluck, and do let us know what amcas says about this.
 
Yizzle said:
Back when I was wee lad, i.e. a high school student, I took some courses at a local community college and did not apply myself whatsoever. I ended up with a 2.8 GPA for just under 30 credits. I never transferred these grades to the university I currently attend, so they do not appear on my transcript. But I'm putting together my AMCAS application and I'm afraid that if I list these grades, they'll put some serious hurt into my standing. What should I do?

If you do decide to withhold those grades, you will not be the only one who will have done so.
And no, if you have not transferred those classes, there is absolutely no way adcoms can ever find out that you took them and/or what grades you got -- one would need a warrant for that.
 
On the top of page 5 of the AMACAS 2007 "Application Tips" PDF http://www.aamc.org/students/amcas/2007apptips.pdf

Transcript Requirements
Issue: Applicants failing to submit all required transcripts for schools attended to AMCAS.
Tip: AMCAS requires that applicants submit official transcripts from all U.S. and Canadian post-secondary institutions, regardless of which school(s) accepted this credit. For example, if you take a summer course at a community college, and transfer the work to your primary/home institution, AMCAS requires BOTH official transcripts (from the community college and from your regular year college) even if this is true regardless of whether or not the community college course work also appears on your home institution transcript.
 
I think (double check this one) if you used federal financial aid to pay for those classes, they'll definitely be found and will come back to haunt you. It's also just a big risk to take. If you get into school and they find that transcript you could be in some real trouble.
 
GoJoeyMojo said:
I think (double check this one) if you used federal financial aid to pay for those classes, they'll definitely be found and will come back to haunt you. It's also just a big risk to take. If you get into school and they find that transcript you could be in some real trouble.

That would be true. But I'm pretty sure you cannot get federal aid unless you are in a degree-track program. And if you are a high-schooler well.... then that's all you are! You usually aren't matriculated.
 
Certification on the amcas:
I have read, understand and agree to comply with AMCAS Instructions, including the provisions
noting that I am responsible for monitoring and ensuring the progress of my application process, by
frequently checking the Main Menu of my application. I understand that I am responsible for
reviewing my application after AMCAS processing is complete. I acknowledge that my failure to
identify potential processing discrepancies may result in adverse admission decisions, and I
understand that I am not eligible for a refund of AMCAS fees if I do not contact AMCAS within 10
days of application processing completion. I also understand that I am responsible for knowing and
understanding the admissions requirements for each school to which I am applying, and that I am not
eligible for a refund of AMCAS fees if I do not meet the admissions requirements of the medical
schools. I acknowledge and agree that my sole remedy in the event of any errors or omissions
relating to the handling or processing of my application is to obtain a refund of my AMCAS
application fee. I certify that the information in this application and associated materials is current,
complete, and accurate to the best of my knowledge. I further certify that AMCAS has my
permission to release information, at the request of the medical school(s), to a third-party to prepopulate
online secondary applications.
Fraud is bad, m'kay?
A felony, I should think. Also pretty easy to prove for the DA.
 
liverotcod said:
Certification on the amcas:

Fraud is bad, m'kay?
A felony, I should think. Also pretty easy to prove for the DA.

No way to prove the "fraud" without a warrant. And no way a warrant can be given out in order to go on a "fishing expedition": A DA must have a reasonable and justifiable suspicion of guilt in order to get a warrant order issued. How in the world is he going to get that???
 
On page 8 of AMCAS 2007 Worksheet, it states:

(last item)
• College-level courses you took while in high school even if they were not counted toward a degree by any college.

So yes.
 
It would seriously seriously suck if you got accepted to med school and had it rescinded when they found out you didn't tell them about those classes.
 
I would absolutely include them. Community college IS college credit, so not disclosing them would be fraud. In the end its your choice, but its also your risk. Its just a bad way to start your professional career. GPA does matter, but it will not kill your application like not disclosing those grades.

In fact, maybe your grades/classes that you took might even be part of your story/path into medicine. For example, you didn't do well in highschool taking this classes, but later maybe you realized the importance of your education blah, blah, blah...just an idea...
 
inverse_scatter said:
No way to prove the "fraud" without a warrant. And no way a warrant can be given out in order to go on a "fishing expedition": A DA must have a reasonable and justifiable suspicion of guilt in order to get a warrant order issued. How in the world is he going to get that???
Just a short quote from the FERPA web site. I'm no legal expert (heck, I'm not much of an expert on anything), but this would make it seem pretty easy for A) any medical school to get information and B) anybody to get "directory" information, such as the fact that the OP attended the school:
http://www.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/fpco/ferpa/index.html said:
Generally, schools must have written permission from the parent or eligible student in order to release any information from a student's education record. However, FERPA allows schools to disclose those records, without consent, to the following parties or under the following conditions (34 CFR § 99.31):
o School officials with legitimate educational interest;
o Other schools to which a student is transferring;
o Specified officials for audit or evaluation purposes;
o Appropriate parties in connection with financial aid to a student;
o Organizations conducting certain studies for or on behalf of the school;
o Accrediting organizations;
o To comply with a judicial order or lawfully issued subpoena;
o Appropriate officials in cases of health and safety emergencies; and
o State and local authorities, within a juvenile justice system, pursuant to specific State law.

Schools may disclose, without consent, "directory" information such as a student's name, address, telephone number, date and place of birth, honors and awards, and dates of attendance. However, schools must tell parents and eligible students about directory information and allow parents and eligible students a reasonable amount of time to request that the school not disclose directory information about them. Schools must notify parents and eligible students annually of their rights under FERPA. The actual means of notification (special letter, inclusion in a PTA bulletin, student handbook, or newspaper article) is left to the discretion of each school.
Of course, it may never come up. Crime sometimes does pay.
 
joices:

1. don't list them and get in...

2. list them and don't get in...

3. list them and get in....

bottom line: do you have the balls ??

i recomment the following: call another community college and ask them if amcas can have access to your grades without your permission---
 
inverse_scatter said:
No way to prove the "fraud" without a warrant. And no way a warrant can be given out in order to go on a "fishing expedition": A DA must have a reasonable and justifiable suspicion of guilt in order to get a warrant order issued. How in the world is he going to get that???

This is the most bizarrely wrong thing I've read on SDN in quite a while. Actually most fraud is proved without a warrant. In this specific example, if you assert that you have provided all your college level info to AMCAS, and then it is shown you haven't (by a school you didn't list indicating you attended there -- not privileged info) that is sufficient proof of fraud. No DA will be involved in academic fraud (no, we aren't talking about a felony), but the standard for a warrant is not that which you have listed anyhow. We are not talking about criminal repurcussions here, we are talking about not getting admitted to med school, or later getting kicked out of med school or not getting licensed as the most likely results of getting caught. Does AMCAS have a clearinghouse of academic info they can check? Who knows. But things get more and more computerized every day, and there is a good chance the info will surface between now and when you apply for a license. Folks who lie on applications get caught as often as not. If you get caught your career in medicine is DOA. I wouldn't advise it.
 
Law2Doc said:
No DA will be involved in academic fraud (no, we aren't talking about a felony)
Oh darn. I really wanted it to be. I was thinking because you're certifying a false statement for significant personal gain ($$$$ from your career as physician). Also you're hitting the mail fraud thing (AAMC is not instate)?

A bit of a stretch, I realize.
 
Law2Doc said:
This is the most bizarrely wrong thing I've read on SDN in quite a while. Actually most fraud is proved without a warrant. In this specific example, if you assert that you have provided all your college level info to AMCAS, and then it is shown you haven't (by a school you didn't list indicating you attended there -- not privileged info) that is sufficient proof of fraud. No DA will be involved in academic fraud (no, we aren't talking about a felony), but the standard for a warrant is not that which you have listed anyhow. We are not talking about criminal repurcussions here, we are talking about not getting admitted to med school, or later getting kicked out of med school or not getting licensed as the most likely results of getting caught. Does AMCAS have a clearinghouse of academic info they can check? Who knows. But things get more and more computerized every day, and there is a good chance the info will surface between now and when you apply for a license. Folks who lie on applications get caught as often as not. If you get caught your career in medicine is DOA. I wouldn't advise it.

I agree that I know nothing about the law. I never meant to claim that this would, indeed, be fraud or that a DA would be involved. I just followed liverotcod's cue (who mentioned fraud and a DA being able to prove it) and questioned how in the world anyone (a DA included) would be able to prove it without fishing for privileged info.

As for the "clearinghouse", again, I doubt this would be legal, especially if the student notifies the school that he/she does not want ANY of his/her directory info listed (but of course you know more about it than me, and yes, the FERPA regulation quoted above may be vague enough to leave lattitude for the creation of a clearinghouse.)

In all, I am completely impartial to the matter. I neither encourage it, nor do I condemn it. I do think, however, that we are all being paranoid premeds...
 
liverotcod said:
Just a short quote from the FERPA web site. I'm no legal expert (heck, I'm not much of an expert on anything), but this would make it seem pretty easy for A) any medical school to get information and B) anybody to get "directory" information, such as the fact that the OP attended the school:

Of course, it may never come up. Crime sometimes does pay.

I appreciate all of your comments and I think you've all confirmed what I didn't want to admit to myself but already knew: those grades are going to get listed. It sucks, but it may in fact give me good material for my essay, and if nothing else, it will help me sleep better after I've submitted my application. Then again, it may be the piece of straw that breaks the camel's back who was going to let me into medical school, but at least I won't always have it looming behind me.

Freaking underdeveloped frontal lobe...I wish I made better decisions.
 
Yizzle said:
it may in fact give me good material for my essay, and if nothing else, it will help me sleep better after I've submitted my application.
It is my belief that having some kind of difficulty in your past, thoroughly overcome, makes a person a significantly stronger candidate. Heck, it worked for me! Best wishes in your quest.
 
liverotcod said:
It is my belief that having some kind of difficulty in your past, thoroughly overcome, makes a person a significantly stronger candidate. Heck, it worked for me! Best wishes in your quest.

Cheers to that!
 
Do so many pre-meds really have such a poor moral compass? I'm not trying to be high and mighty, but not disclosing all grades is the same as lying and from what I've learned, lying is bad. If any of you do lie on your application, I honestly hope you will be discovered and have your MD degree revoked. Have fun being paranoid for the rest of your life if you lie.
 
tennisguy896 said:
Do so many pre-meds really have such a poor moral compass? I'm not trying to be high and mighty, but not disclosing all grades is the same as lying and from what I've learned, lying is bad. If any of you do lie on your application, I honestly hope you will be discovered and have your MD degree revoked. Have fun being paranoid for the rest of your life if you lie.

I think a lot of pre-meds just have their eye on the prize and will do absolutely anything to get it.
 
austinap said:
I think a lot of pre-meds just have their eye on the prize and will do absolutely anything to get it.

Yeah, that's true. Medicine is the most highly respected career in the US, based on polls, and lying on the application would not be a very respectable thig to do. It may seem like just one simple white lie, but it's a lie that may get you kicked out of med school.
 
I think i disagree with everybody. say you forgot, dude. i think i took some class as a sophomore in high school.... oh wait, i can't remember. but i do agree that you should maybe call another community college and check and see what they say. it might save you some annoying bureaucracy later.
 
tennisguy896 said:
Yeah, that's true. Medicine is the most highly respected career in the US, based on polls, and lying on the application would not be a very respectable thig to do. It may seem like just one simple white lie, but it's a lie that may get you kicked out of med school.

I agree wholeheartedly. It's a shame in both medicine and science that so much emphasis is placed on the title and the name tag rather than on the actual career and work ethic. People want the name without necessarily doing everything it involves. I hope this isn't the majority, but there is definately a good sized portion of applicants that fall into this category.
 
It's pretty sad, but I guess we have to expect it in all career fields. You just have to have your set of beliefs and stick to them. By the way sara3426, it's not "bureaucracy"- it's speaking and acting in accordance with the truth and not lying to get a spot you may not deserve (not that I'm saying the OP is undeserving, I'm just saying in general about liars and cheaters).
 
Because someone had to say it:

If you have skeletons in your closet, the anatomists at your school are going to love you; just make sure you say in your interview that you have some and am willing to share 😉
 
Touchdown said:
Because someone had to say it:

If you have skeletons in your closet, the anatomists at your school are going to love you; just make sure you say in your interview that you have some and am willing to share 😉
No kidding, real skeletons are pretty hard to come by these days, and speaking of ethical problems, the way in which they're obtained is pretty sketchy.
 
Brotha, please. This poor guy/gal did something in dumb in high school and is rightfully worried that this could seriously hurt his chances of getting into medical school. Just answer what you think would possibly happen because he/she didn't ask you, "the Moral Police" for your self-important opinions.

Honestly, how many of you knew the AAMC rules by heart, or hell even knew what the AAMC was in high school?
 
Thank you! I sometimes get the feeling that certain premeds, out of insecurity and the feeling that it's "unfair", freak the heck out when they think of other people not following all the rules exactly as they do. Here's the thing, though: if you rock, you rock. I couldn't care less if every single kid applying to the schools I do breaks every rule he can, cause my app should stand on its own, you know? Given that, if it's going to come right back to you, it's not worth the trouble it'll cause you. check that out first.
so to the OP, do your thing, man! if schools new about half the crap we did when we were 16, no one interesting would get into med school.
 
Rzarecta said:
Just answer what you think would possibly happen because he didn't you, "the Moral Police" for your self-important opinions on. ?

Not exactly sure what your sentence is saying, but I think I made myself pretty clear that he should put all grades on his application. We all make mistakes, and we should all live with them. Those grades should not have a very big effect on your overall application since they were taken when you weren't even a freshman. They probably weren't science courses so they'll have even less of an impact. I can't believe this thread is still going.
 
tennisguy896 said:
Not exactly sure what your sentence is saying, but I think I made myself pretty clear that he should put all grades on his application. We all make mistakes, and we should all live with them. Those grades should not have a very big effect on your overall application since they were taken when you weren't even a freshman. They probably weren't science courses so they'll have even less of an impact. I can't believe this thread is still going.

30 credits of 2.8 GPA, isn't that like 7 courses at many schools (almost two semesters)? Personally, I think there is a difference between the "oh I just woke up from the alcoholic stupor that was freshman year and am ready to improve on my 1.0 because I wanna be a doctor!" and the "hey I am in high school and I am going to live forever screw parents and screw school!" I think the college kid at least knows that this counts, the high school kid has no friggin' clue.
 
tennisguy896 said:
Do so many pre-meds really have such a poor moral compass? I'm not trying to be high and mighty, but not disclosing all grades is the same as lying and from what I've learned, lying is bad. If any of you do lie on your application, I honestly hope you will be discovered and have your MD degree revoked. Have fun being paranoid for the rest of your life if you lie.

It's an issue of tunnel vision. You get so wrapped up in what you've been slaving for for so many years that the prospect of not getting in takes center stage. I don't disagree with you about having a poor moral compass on this issue. I can look at it simplistically and say, things change and this was an anomalous stint in my academic career; it's not hurting anyone. Or I can say, this happened, and not disclosing it is a deliberate lie, and it hurts other applicants who disclosed their full range of statistics. The latter is true; I can't deny it. I just lost sight of what was important. Good job, you've succeeded. Now I feel bad.
 
I do have a friend of a friend that applied to medical school and did not include a community college transcript with poor grades. This person is currently at USC doing an MD/PhD. For whatever its worth, I lost all respect for this person when he told me his dirty little secret.

Yes, this process often rewards people who are strategic and cut-throat. But I think it is important to draw a line of integrity for yourself. If you don't list those classes and do get in to med school, you may have a pang of guilt that will never go away...
 
Yizzle said:
It's an issue of tunnel vision. You get so wrapped up in what you've been slaving for for so many years that the prospect of not getting in takes center stage. I don't disagree with you about having a poor moral compass on this issue. I can look at it simplistically and say, things change and this was an anomalous stint in my academic career; it's not hurting anyone. Or I can say, this happened, and not disclosing it is a deliberate lie, and it hurts other applicants who disclosed their full range of statistics. The latter is true; I can't deny it. I just lost sight of what was important. Good job, you've succeeded. Now I feel bad.

I'm not trying to make you feel bad, and you shouldn't feel bad since you clearly are having qualms about what to do (which speaks well about your character). You've had 4 years since high school, so I'm sure med schools will give much more weight to what you've done since those community college courses than to those old poor grades. I think your situation correlates with lots of stories I've heard about non-traditionals who did poorly in undegrad, but totally kicked butt in grad school/post-bac etc... Seriously, I'm sure this will not be as big an issue as it may seem right now. Like others have said, it's more key that you've improved on those past experiences. Peace.
 
tennisguy896 said:
I'm not trying to make you feel bad, and you shouldn't feel bad since you clearly are having qualms about what to do (which speaks well about your character). You've had 4 years since high school, so I'm sure med schools will give much more weight to what you've done since those community college courses than to those old poor grades. I think your situation correlates with lots of stories I've heard about non-traditionals who did poorly in undegrad, but totally kicked butt in grad school/post-bac etc... Seriously, I'm sure this will not be as big an issue as it may seem right now. Like others have said, it's more key that you've improved on those past experiences. Peace.

I am not totally disagreeing, but schools can be very fickle at the post-primary application stages.
 
Well boys and girls, in the time it's taken for some of these posts to evolve from informative to reprimanding to regret, I have been punching away at my keyboard in another window on my computer, and I think I just wrote the most honest draft of an essay I've written yet. We'll see how it sounds in a day or two, but right now I'm feeling pretty good about it. Personal growth, isn't it grand?
 
The way I see it, if you don't tell them, they will most likely never find out. However, it does not follow that you should not tell them, as you should because it is the ETHICAL THING TO DO.

If you choose to withhold the information, you will not be the first pre-med to lie on his application. This is scary, as these people will be the ones attempting to save lives 10 years from now. What if they screw up in surgery and no one notices? Lie?

This may sound cheesy and cliche, but look to your conscience and do the right thing.
 
I am a skeleton and I am in the closet. Oh shiit. Forget I said that.
 
No admissions committee in their right mind is going to give a **** about what you did in high school. Period. You might not make the initial cut at some schools that use GPA first, but I'd say some schools will still look at your application and see what happened and take it into due consideration--as in they will not give a **** what you did in high school. It is better to be honest than paranoid the rest of your life. It is just not that big a deal to screw up in high school and if you have got the rest of your **** together the GPA isn't going to kill you ANYWHERE except snooty places, and to hell with them anyway. A clear conscious is worth way more than a little bit fancier name, the same education, and lifelong paranoia and guilt. This is what I would do if I were in your situtation, just fess up.
 
Pkboi24 said:
The way I see it, if you don't tell them, they will most likely never find out. However, it does not follow that you should not tell them, as you should because it is the ETHICAL THING TO DO.

If you choose to withhold the information, you will not be the first pre-med to lie on his application. This is scary, as these people will be the ones attempting to save lives 10 years from now. What if they screw up in surgery and no one notices? Lie?

This may sound cheesy and cliche, but look to your conscience and do the right thing.

Well, at least you were right about one thing. 🙄
 
I just called the AMCA help line and the help guy told me I would only need to list courses that showed up on my undergraduate transcript. He said because the college courses I took in HS do not show up on my undergraduate transcript I would not have to list it.

Hopefully what he said was true because I do not want to list the low grades I got in the college courses I took during HS.
 
Its_MurDAH said:
nah

if i remember correctly the amcas just asks for any courses you have taken at any university (public or community or private) during the course of your undergraduate studies. Since you said you never transferred those comm. college credits back in high school I think you should be okay even if you don't list them...but still double check with amcas. This is one of those things you dont wanna screw up cuz its very simple to do and screwing it up could seriously hamper your application.

gluck, and do let us know what amcas says about this.


I don't think that's wise. AMCAS requires that you list all courses you've ever taken that are college course credits, even if it was some random PE class back in highschool or something like that.
 
remarkal3le said:
I just called the AMCA help line and the help guy told me I would only need to list courses that showed up on my undergraduate transcript. He said because the college courses I took in HS do not show up on my undergraduate transcript I would not have to list it.

Hopefully what he said was true because I do not want to list the low grades I got in the college courses I took during HS.


This is new information to me, I was always under the impression that you had to list everything. That's what past applicants have told me.
 
liverotcod said:
No kidding, real skeletons are pretty hard to come by these days, and speaking of ethical problems, the way in which they're obtained is pretty sketchy.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
 
gujuDoc said:
This is new information to me, I was always under the impression that you had to list everything. That's what past applicants have told me.

Actually, I think you are correct. I'm reading the application help booklet and it says to list everything also. Does anyone mind calling to ask? They may not be on the same boat. The help guy I got didn't seem 100% sure anyway.
 
remarkal3le said:
I just called the AMCA help line and the help guy told me I would only need to list courses that showed up on my undergraduate transcript. He said because the college courses I took in HS do not show up on my undergraduate transcript I would not have to list it.

Hopefully what he said was true because I do not want to list the low grades I got in the college courses I took during HS.
That conflicts with the manual, since it says you send transcripts for all college work including dual credit taken while in HS.
 
You have got to be kidding me, you guys are still argueing after someone told you that an AMCA rep told them what to do. To quote the great Ferris Bueller: You guys are so tight that if you stuck a lump of coal up your butt, in two weeks you'd have a diamond.
 
Top