Sleep Medicine

[miacomet]

Hey, I am super interested in Sleep Medicine, but there simply does not seem to be a way to pursue this from EM- you have to be FM, Peds, ENT, psych, or IM, no E allowed.

Does anyone know any ABEM docs who either

-managed to pursue a Sleep fellowship
-are interested in pursuing a Sleep fellowship

I don't really have any other career interests- it's Sleep or Starbucks, I guess, and ABEM has been super unhelpful, as per usual.

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[DeadCactus]

"Prior to appointment in the program, each fellow must have completed a core program in anesthesiology, child neurology, family medicine, internal medicine, neurology, otolaryngology, pediatrics, or psychiatry that satisfies the requirements in III.A.1."

https://www.acgme.org/globalassets/pfassets/programrequirements/520_sleepmedicine_2022.pdf

It's part of the requirements. You'll either need to complete a second residency or spend years fighting for change at the ACGME/ABMS level.

 

[miacomet]

"Prior to appointment in the program, each fellow must have completed a core program in anesthesiology, child neurology, family medicine, internal medicine, neurology, otolaryngology, pediatrics, or psychiatry that satisfies the requirements in III.A.1."

https://www.acgme.org/globalassets/pfassets/programrequirements/520_sleepmedicine_2022.pdf

It's part of the requirements. You'll either need to complete a second residency or spend years fighting for change at the ACGME/ABMS level.

I know. My conclusion is it's time to quit medicine, which is a shame.

 

[EthylMethylMan]

I know. My conclusion is it's time to quit medicine, which is a shame.

Have you explored the other lesser known options? Pain? Hyperbaric/wound? Admin? Worth an attempt if they’d be even a bit satisfying for you. Also, if you could stomach reapplying to and redoing residency, occupational medicine is only 2 years. Sounds like it’s pretty chill and basically all clinic based.

If you have even a bit of interest in hyperbaric/wound, I used that to escape the pit, and would be glad to help however I can. It’s a chill job, still get to do some low-risk procedures, patients are generally grateful for your work, and they usually improve.

 

[GatorCHOMPions]

Didn’t @Birdstrike help the process of Pain Boards recognizing EM? Hopefully he can give some insight into how it could translate to Sleep. My guess is you will have to find a program to take you first and then later appeal to the Sleep boards to let you sit for the exam.

 

[miacomet]

Have you explored the other lesser known options? Pain? Hyperbaric/wound? Admin? Worth an attempt if they’d be even a bit satisfying for you. Also, if you could stomach reapplying to and redoing residency, occupational medicine is only 2 years. Sounds like it’s pretty chill and basically all clinic based.

If you have even a bit of interest in hyperbaric/wound, I used that to escape the pit, and would be glad to help however I can. It’s a chill job, still get to do some low-risk procedures, patients are generally grateful for your work, and they usually impr

But I have an academic interest in Sleep....

 

[miacomet]

Didn’t @Birdstrike help the process of Pain Boards recognizing EM? Hopefully he can give some insight into how it could translate to Sleep. My guess is you will have to find a program to take you first and then later appeal to the Sleep boards to let you sit for the exam.

Can one appeal to take the Boards? I didn't even know that was a thing.

 

[Birdstrike]

Didn’t @Birdstrike help the process of Pain Boards recognizing EM? Hopefully he can give some insight into how it could translate to Sleep. My guess is you will have to find a program to take you first and then later appeal to the Sleep boards to let you sit for the exam.

Yes.

>>>> The Birth of an EM Subspecialty: Pain Medicine

 

[Birdstrike]

Can one appeal to take the Boards? I didn't even know that was a thing.

The exceptions and appeal process are on page 18 and 19 of the document I sent you via DM. Did you not read it?

 

[miacomet]

The exceptions and appeal process are on page 18 and 19 of the document I sent you via DM. Did you not read it?

I did! Several times. It looks like it only applies to IMGs, no exceptions for US MD grads.

Interestingly, I emailed the American Academy of Sleep Medicine and the GME specialist said she had received multiple enquiries from ABEM certified physicians interested in pursuing Sleep in the last few months.

ABEM is, however dead against Sleep and is convinced that no one is interested. They just want us in the ER or ICU I guess, I don't know why they are so averse to Sleep. Maybe we would all figure out how awful EM circadian disruption is and EM would die???

 

[RustedFox]

I did! Several times. It looks like it only applies to IMGs, no exceptions for US MD grads.

Interestingly, I emailed the American Academy of Sleep Medicine and the GME specialist said she had received multiple enquiries from ABEM certified physicians interested in pursuing Sleep in the last few months.

ABEM is, however dead against Sleep and is convinced that no one is interested. They just want us in the ER or ICU I guess, I don't know why they are so averse to Sleep. Maybe we would all figure out how awful EM circadian disruption is and EM would die???

A B E M.

 

[Birdstrike]

I did! Several times. It looks like it only applies to IMGs, no exceptions for US MD grads.

Interestingly, I emailed the American Academy of Sleep Medicine and the GME specialist said she had received multiple enquiries from ABEM certified physicians interested in pursuing Sleep in the last few months.

ABEM is, however dead against Sleep and is convinced that no one is interested. They just want us in the ER or ICU I guess, I don't know why they are so averse to Sleep. Maybe we would all figure out how awful EM circadian disruption is and EM would die???

If you could somehow track down who all those EM people are that inquired about sleep, write a combined letter to ABEM and you all sign it? When we did this with Pain, I recall there was no more than 10 of us that I could point to that we’re doing EM Pain. There’s more than that now, but the number is still small. It has to start somewhere. You just need to make it big enough to be worth there while. Or at least big enough they can’t ignore you.

Or, just find a mentor in sleep and pay them to train you for a year and do your research anyways.

You could sleep be an EM physician in spirit but with a “special interest” in sleep medicine.

I suppose it depends how bad you want it.

 

[miacomet]

If you could somehow track down who all those EM people are that inquired about sleep, write a combined letter to ABEM and you all sign it? When we did this with Pain, I recall there was no more than 10 of us that I could point to that we’re doing EM Pain. There’s more than that now, but the number is still small. It has to start somewhere. You just need to make it big enough to be worth there while. Or at least big enough they can’t ignore you.

Or, just find a mentor in sleep and pay them to train you for a year and do your research anyways.

You could sleep be an EM physician in spirit but with a “special interest” in sleep medicine.

I suppose it depends how bad you want it.

Yep, I asked the nice GME lady at Sleep to get their names, she sad she would- she said at least four of us over the last couple of months, which is significant, and I'm setting up a meeting with the correct ABEM person in January.

 

[cyanide12345678]

I dont see how psych is approved and we aren’t.

Good luck for fighting the good fight

 

[Apollyon]

I dont see how psych is approved and we aren’t.

Good luck for fighting the good fight

All of the specialties listed deal with sleep issues, including psych. I don't recall ever seeing a pt for insomnia, or hypersomnia, at that. It's not really a stretch.

 

[BoardingDoc]

All of the specialties listed deal with sleep issues, including psych. I don't recall ever seeing a pt for insomnia, or hypersomnia, at that. It's not really a stretch.

I've certainly seen patients who presented with a sole complaint of insomnia. That said, I didn't do anything for them and told them to see their PCP as that definitionally isn't an emergency.

 

[cyanide12345678]

I've certainly seen patients who presented with a sole complaint of insomnia. That said, I didn't do anything for them and told them to see their PCP as that definitionally isn't an emergency.

Same. Definitely seen a few patients for insomnia. Benadryl and home.

 

[Tiger26]

Definitely support your ambitions, especially if all those other specialties are able to apply.

Just curious but wondering why you're interested, since I know almost nothing about sleep medicine?

 

[miacomet]

Definitely support your ambitions, especially if all those other specialties are able to apply.

Just curious but wondering why you're interested, since I know almost nothing about sleep medicine?

I'm interested in circadian sleep disorders, high altitude and sleep, and the lunar cycle and sleep.


If EM can do palli, I think we are equipped to do sleep- we deal with the airway, we have a deep understanding of circadian sleep disorders, and we deal with altitude issues (at least where I worked). We also deal with psych issues, which often have to do with sleep. I think we are equipped!!

 

[ProReduction]

I dont see how psych is approved and we aren’t.

Good luck for fighting the good fight

It is ridiculous. Sleep is 90% physiology. Psych has the lowest knowledge/use of physiology out of any specialty. You could argue that CC/Anesthesia/EM have the most knowledge of physiology.
And to those saying that Psych deal with sleep issues, you have a misunderstanding of what Sleep Medicine specialists do. All of my Sleep Medicine colleagues outright reject insomnia consults. That is not what they do. Insomnia is the only sleep disorder that Psych manages.

 

[Birdstrike]

Yep, I asked the nice GME lady at Sleep to get their names, she sad she would- she said at least four of us over the last couple of months, which is significant, and I'm setting up a meeting with the correct ABEM person in January.

Good work.

 

[Birdstrike]

I'm interested in circadian sleep disorders, high altitude and sleep, and the lunar cycle and sleep.

Emergency physicians suffer so extensively from circadian rhythm sleep dysfunction, that it only makes sense we should have a subset of Sleep experts in EM. It doesn’t have to be a large percentage of people. But somebody needs to spearhead this. Props to @miacomet for carrying the mantle.

 

[Birdstrike]

Dealing with this approval process with Pain taught me a few things. One is that subspecialties aren’t assigned by some group sitting around the room that decides in advance who would be a good fit for a subspecialty, who then assigns those specialties, while waiting for people to go into the subspecialty.

It happens in the opposite order. Individual doctors color outside the lines of their specialties gradually by learning a new skill in an area of special interest. A few more do it. Then a few more. Once a critical mass of doctors are practicing the subspecialty, their primary board them has the justification and can find the motivation to appeal to the primary sponsor specialty, to get added to the list of official sponsors.

It works backwards from how it seems like it should work. But that’s how it works.

What @miacomet is talking about doing is exactly how it worked to get Pain added as an EM subspecialty. Will it work? Will they get enough people to make it worthwhile to ABEM?

Yes, it will.

 

[Birdstrike]

Anything that gets EM physicians out of the ED and gives them hope, has a future.

 

[Apollyon]

It is ridiculous. Sleep is 90% physiology. Psych has the lowest knowledge/use of physiology out of any specialty. You could argue that CC/Anesthesia/EM have the most knowledge of physiology.
And to those saying that Psych deal with sleep issues, you have a misunderstanding of what Sleep Medicine specialists do. All of my Sleep Medicine colleagues outright reject insomnia consults. That is not what they do. Insomnia is the only sleep disorder that Psych manages.

Just how many is that? And how is it that you are so aware of the consults?

As is clear, I, as an EP, don't know about sleep med, as you, rather archly, comment. I have the misunderstanding because I have not searched it out, and there wasn't any education by the sleep community to change my perception.

 

[DeadCactus]

The fact that 8 different specialties ranging from primary care to specialty surgeons can all train in sleep tells you that sleep is it's own area and has little to with any residency's core curriculum. The fellowship teaches you what you need to know. The reality is sleep is a niche topic like nutrition and exercise that is largely neglected in medical education unless you have a personal interest in it. For most people, residency level sleep knowledge is going to stop at the hand-out on sleep hygiene they give to clinic patients or a general idea that we're slowly killing ourselves among shift workers.

 

[ProReduction]

Just how many is that? And how is it that you are so aware of the consults?

As is clear, I, as an EP, don't know about sleep med, as you, rather archly, comment. I have the misunderstanding because I have not searched it out, and there wasn't any education by the sleep community to change my perception.

I am a mid-career Neurointensivist via Neurology residency. 10-12 years ago Sleep was really hot. Reimbursement was better (so I hear). Within +/- 3 years of my residency class you would have 20% or so of Neurology residency grads from my program match into Sleep. I still keep in touch with many of them. Insomnia consults are the bane of their existence simply because they see it as a pure psychiatric issue 99% of the time. They can't even justify a formal sleep study in many cases, which is their bread and butter. Some of them are busy enough that they block insomnia consults altogether, insisting on Psychiatry/Psycholopgy evaluation first.
The other bit of caution is that they all say that the job market in Sleep continues to decline. Very few of them are able to get by in a pure Sleep practice. They have to do General Outpatient Neurology as a portion of their practice.

 

[miacomet]

I am a mid-career Neurointensivist via Neurology residency. 10-12 years ago Sleep was really hot. Reimbursement was better (so I hear). Within +/- 3 years of my residency class you would have 20% or so of Neurology residency grads from my program match into Sleep. I still keep in touch with many of them. Insomnia consults are the bane of their existence simply because they see it as a pure psychiatric issue 99% of the time. They can't even justify a formal sleep study in many cases, which is their bread and butter. Some of them are busy enough that they block insomnia consults altogether, insisting on Psychiatry/Psycholopgy evaluation first.
The other bit of caution is that they all say that the job market in Sleep continues to decline. Very few of them are able to get by in a pure Sleep practice. They have to do General Outpatient Neurology as a portion of their practice.

I guess my question is why don't Sleep docs also deal with insomnia? I mean, that's a sleep issue, too.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I guess my question is why don't Sleep docs also deal with insomnia? I mean, that's a sleep issue, too.

Because they are lazy and/or that doesn't pay as well.

 

[miacomet]

If anyone knows of EM docs interested in Sleep:

-Please consider sending me their names and contact info so I can connect with them to help petition ABEM,
-Or have them email the Sleep folks at [email protected] and give Sally Podolski permission to forward their info to me so I can connect with them to petition ABEM.

I think there are already four of us, and if we can get a few more I think we have a chance.

Thanks!

 

[smq123]

I guess my question is why don't Sleep docs also deal with insomnia? I mean, that's a sleep issue, too.

I considered doing a sleep fellowship - made more sense for me, as I'm FM. It ended up not working out, timing wise, for my family, but the other deterrent was as ProReduction said - it's becoming increasingly hard to do JUST sleep medicine.

Insomnia is a pain to deal with. In primary care, we obviously see it A LOT. It is a very talk-heavy conversation, which is time consuming, often frustrating, and not easily reimbursible. But, essentially, most patients have lousy sleep habits but also lack the insight to see that they have terrible sleep habits. A patient will come in claiming that nothing works when a) they routinely eat heavy meals late at night, b) they routinely wash those heavy meals down with alcohol late at night, c) they insist on watching TV until 1 AM, and d) they text or watch TikTok until 2 AM. That is a LOT of bad habits to change all at once, and that is a loooong conversation to have. Just trying to disabuse a patient of the notion that "alcohol helps me sleep!" takes a good 10 minutes.

 

[ProReduction]

I considered doing a sleep fellowship - made more sense for me, as I'm FM. It ended up not working out, timing wise, for my family, but the other deterrent was as ProReduction said - it's becoming increasingly hard to do JUST sleep medicine.

Insomnia is a pain to deal with. In primary care, we obviously see it A LOT. It is a very talk-heavy conversation, which is time consuming, often frustrating, and not easily reimbursible. But, essentially, most patients have lousy sleep habits but also lack the insight to see that they have terrible sleep habits. A patient will come in claiming that nothing works when a) they routinely eat heavy meals late at night, b) they routinely wash those heavy meals down with alcohol late at night, c) they insist on watching TV until 1 AM, and d) they text or watch TikTok until 2 AM. That is a LOT of bad habits to change all at once, and that is a loooong conversation to have. Just trying to disabuse a patient of the notion that "alcohol helps me sleep!" takes a good 10 minutes.

Homepage

www.thesleepcoachschool.com

Arguably the biggest pop name in Sleep Medicine and the "Insomnia Whisperer" from what I know. FM to Sleep fellowship MD.

 

[RustedFox]

I considered doing a sleep fellowship - made more sense for me, as I'm FM. It ended up not working out, timing wise, for my family, but the other deterrent was as ProReduction said - it's becoming increasingly hard to do JUST sleep medicine.

Insomnia is a pain to deal with. In primary care, we obviously see it A LOT. It is a very talk-heavy conversation, which is time consuming, often frustrating, and not easily reimbursible. But, essentially, most patients have lousy sleep habits but also lack the insight to see that they have terrible sleep habits. A patient will come in claiming that nothing works when a) they routinely eat heavy meals late at night, b) they routinely wash those heavy meals down with alcohol late at night, c) they insist on watching TV until 1 AM, and d) they text or watch TikTok until 2 AM. That is a LOT of bad habits to change all at once, and that is a loooong conversation to have. Just trying to disabuse a patient of the notion that "alcohol helps me sleep!" takes a good 10 minutes.

"disabuse" is such a great verb.

 

[miacomet]

I considered doing a sleep fellowship - made more sense for me, as I'm FM. It ended up not working out, timing wise, for my family, but the other deterrent was as ProReduction said - it's becoming increasingly hard to do JUST sleep medicine.

Insomnia is a pain to deal with. In primary care, we obviously see it A LOT. It is a very talk-heavy conversation, which is time consuming, often frustrating, and not easily reimbursible. But, essentially, most patients have lousy sleep habits but also lack the insight to see that they have terrible sleep habits. A patient will come in claiming that nothing works when a) they routinely eat heavy meals late at night, b) they routinely wash those heavy meals down with alcohol late at night, c) they insist on watching TV until 1 AM, and d) they text or watch TikTok until 2 AM. That is a LOT of bad habits to change all at once, and that is a loooong conversation to have. Just trying to disabuse a patient of the notion that "alcohol helps me sleep!" takes a good 10 minutes.

Do you not refer them for CBT-I? That seems like a short convo. I am aware of an FP who retired and now does only CBT-I

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Do you not refer them for CBT-I? That seems like a short convo. I am aware of an FP who retired and now does only CBT-I

Very hard to find

 

[smq123]

Do you not refer them for CBT-I? That seems like a short convo. I am aware of an FP who retired and now does only CBT-I

Tell me that you don't do outpatient medicine without telling me that you don't do outpatient medicine.

- CBT-I is very hard to find. They're not that common. Any practices that do it are probably booked out for weeks in advance.

- Therapy, in general, is a tough sell. It does not offer a quick solution. It requires weeks of treatment - which means weeks of taking time off of work. Each visit, and there are usually several required, has a co-pay, and that is IF you are lucky enough that your insurance will actually pay for it. For more esoteric forms of therapy (and CBT-I would qualify under this heading), insurance does not cover it. For a patient who is desperate to just get some sleep, none of this will sound appealing - "Can't you just give me a pill instead?"

So, no. Recommending therapy is almost NEVER a "short convo," with the possible exceptions of physical therapy or pelvic floor therapy.

 

[miacomet]

Tell me that you don't do outpatient medicine without telling me that you don't do outpatient medicine.

- CBT-I is very hard to find. They're not that common. Any practices that do it are probably booked out for weeks in advance.

- Therapy, in general, is a tough sell. It does not offer a quick solution. It requires weeks of treatment - which means weeks of taking time off of work. Each visit, and there are usually several required, has a co-pay, and that is IF you are lucky enough that your insurance will actually pay for it. For more esoteric forms of therapy (and CBT-I would qualify under this heading), insurance does not cover it. For a patient who is desperate to just get some sleep, none of this will sound appealing - "Can't you just give me a pill instead?"

So, no. Recommending therapy is almost NEVER a "short convo," with the possible exceptions of physical therapy or pelvic floor therapy.

Fair, I'm surprised more therapists don't offer CBT-I; it's a short course that helps people- usually only six sessions. I was sold pretty easily on CBT-I, and found someone who was pretty flexible on timing, had published 50 research articles and also...declined to charge me. (FWIW CBT-I totally did not help me lol). It's hardly esoteric, though- it has more evidence than almost any other kind of therapy.

While I realize that's not typical, I'm surprised about insurance- in my state CBT-I and any other kind of generally accepted therapy is usually covered by insurance- CBT, CBT-I, EMDR, Brainspotting, IFS, Gottman, ACT etc as long as they are offered by a licensed mental health professional (LCSW, Psy.D, Phd, LCMC etc). The only exception is SE, because therapists can't touch their patients here (reasonable) and some DBT, but the health plans offer a 10 hour a week DBT skills program combined with therapy.

This isn't typical, I'm thinking?

 

[RustedFox]

Fair, I'm surprised more therapists don't offer CBT-I; it's a short course that helps people- usually only six sessions. I was sold pretty easily on CBT-I, and found someone who was pretty flexible on timing, had published 50 research articles and also...declined to charge me. (FWIW CBT-I totally did not help me lol). It's hardly esoteric, though- it has more evidence than almost any other kind of therapy.

While I realize that's not typical, I'm surprised about insurance- in my state CBT-I and any other kind of generally accepted therapy is usually covered by insurance- CBT, CBT-I, EMDR, Brainspotting, IFS, Gottman, ACT etc as long as they are offered by a licensed mental health professional (LCSW, Psy.D, Phd, LCMC etc). The only exception is SE, because therapists can't touch their patients here (reasonable) and some DBT, but the health plans offer a 10 hour a week DBT skills program combined with therapy.

This isn't typical, I'm thinking?

What are these strange acronyms?

 

[Apollyon]

What are these strange acronyms?

Abbreviations, brother.

 

[dchristismi]

The only single-visit therapy I've read about actually being effective involves psychedelic mushrooms for depression in terminal illness.

Which isn't technically something most practitioners can offer yet. So it'll be a bit before I can expand my HPM practice to that... but hey, when I can, we can all just do that... and then call miacomet when we can't sleep. Ha.

But man, the research is compelling. (I generally try to work something totally off the wall into my annual "goals" that corporate insists we do every year. I mused that my overarching goal is always to alleviate existential suffering. Some wiseguy suggested I "read an article that incorporates treatment of existential suffering." I came back with shrooms as there was a great article about group therapy using psychedelic mushrooms with some impressive p values out of U of Utah. They bought it. Sheesh.)

Off-topic enough? Ok, sorry. But I bet people would go for that. But maybe not for sleep.

 

[Birdstrike]

The only single-visit therapy I've read about actually being effective involves psychedelic mushrooms for depression in terminal illness.

Which isn't technically something most practitioners can offer yet. So it'll be a bit before I can expand my HPM practice to that... but hey, when I can, we can all just do that... and then call miacomet when we can't sleep. Ha.

But man, the research is compelling. (I generally try to work something totally off the wall into my annual "goals" that corporate insists we do every year. I mused that my overarching goal is always to alleviate existential suffering. Some wiseguy suggested I "read an article that incorporates treatment of existential suffering." I came back with shrooms as there was a great article about group therapy using psychedelic mushrooms with some impressive p values out of U of Utah. They bought it. Sheesh.)

Off-topic enough? Ok, sorry. But I bet people would go for that. But maybe not for sleep.

Random shroom question. Do hallucinogenic mushrooms carry the increased risk of disorders of psychosis like cannabis and LSD do?

 

[wholeheartedly]

Random shroom question. Do hallucinogenic mushrooms carry the increased risk of disorders of psychosis like cannabis and LSD do?

does this count?

The off-duty pilot accused of trying to crash an Alaska Airlines flight wouldn't get anti-depressants because he was scared of losing his job, his​

MSN

 

[Birdstrike]

does this count?

The off-duty pilot accused of trying to crash an Alaska Airlines flight wouldn't get anti-depressants because he was scared of losing his job, his​

MSN

The shrooms bought him 80+ counts of attempted murder, so in my book it counts.

 

[miacomet]

The only single-visit therapy I've read about actually being effective involves psychedelic mushrooms for depression in terminal illness.

Which isn't technically something most practitioners can offer yet. So it'll be a bit before I can expand my HPM practice to that... but hey, when I can, we can all just do that... and then call miacomet when we can't sleep. Ha.

But man, the research is compelling. (I generally try to work something totally off the wall into my annual "goals" that corporate insists we do every year. I mused that my overarching goal is always to alleviate existential suffering. Some wiseguy suggested I "read an article that incorporates treatment of existential suffering." I came back with shrooms as there was a great article about group therapy using psychedelic mushrooms with some impressive p values out of U of Utah. They bought it. Sheesh.)

Off-topic enough? Ok, sorry. But I bet people would go for that. But maybe not for sleep

FWIW, MDMA should be approved to PTSD next year, basically they are figuring out how to monetize a generic drug, so the protocol will be complicated to say the least, not sure how that will work for HPM.

The research on psilocin and LSD have been robust for decades. I don't know where you are, but psilocin is completely out in the open in many places, and Biden wants it legalize ASAP. I don't know a psychiatrist who isn't eager.

Any interest in supporting Sleep?

 

[Franzd'Epinay]

If anyone knows of EM docs interested in Sleep:

-Please consider sending me their names and contact info so I can connect with them to help petition ABEM,
-Or have them email the Sleep folks at [email protected] and give Sally Podolski permission to forward their info to me so I can connect with them to petition ABEM.

I think there are already four of us, and if we can get a few more I think we have a chance.

Thanks!

You have a rough gameplan, now you just need raw numbers. Post on the EM Docs facebook group, post on reddit, ask the mods here to make a sticky (@southerndoc), ask some ACEP/AAEM/SAEM/EMRA/CORD section to send out an email, get an item added on one of those EM newsletters, etc. The more ways you can reach people, the better.

You should also organize in some way--make a discord channel, a mailing list, a facebook group, a WhatsApp/Signal/Telegram chain, or some other method for all of you to stay in touch through the process.

Best of luck man, I'm rooting for you. Sleep wouldn't be my cup of tea, but I'm all for EM having more outpatient subspecialties.

 

[Birdstrike]

ACEP/AAEM/SAEM/EMRA/CORD

I second the idea of setting up a poster-booth at these orgs conferences, to talk about the subject and gather the names of interested people.

 

[BoardingDoc]

You have a rough gameplan, now you just need raw numbers. Post on the EM Docs facebook group, post on reddit, ask the mods here to make a sticky (@southerndoc), ask some ACEP/AAEM/SAEM/EMRA/CORD section to send out an email, get an item added on one of those EM newsletters, etc. The more ways you can reach people, the better.

You should also organize in some way--make a discord channel, a mailing list, a facebook group, a WhatsApp/Signal/Telegram chain, or some other method for all of you to stay in touch through the process.

Best of luck man, I'm rooting for you. Sleep wouldn't be my cup of tea, but I'm all for EM having more outpatient subspecialties.

If @miacomet wants to make a new thread which details the plan for approaching ABEM, and what mia would like sent their way in order to help facilitate this, I'm happy to add that thread to the "popular threads" sticky under the "training" section which currently has the link to residency reviews as well as the "pain is a subspecialty of EM" thread.

@miacomet : if you're interested, DM me once you've posted a thread as above and I'll add the link.

 

[miacomet]

If @miacomet wants to make a new thread which details the plan for approaching ABEM, and what mia would like sent their way in order to help facilitate this, I'm happy to add that thread to the "popular threads" sticky under the "training" section which currently has the link to residency reviews as well as the "pain is a subspecialty of EM" thread.

@miacomet : if you're interested, DM me once you've posted a thread as above and I'll add the link.

Awesome! I will work on a thread @BoardingDoc. Here's the rough up, I will take and and all suggestions and put it into a more polished thread.

What I've done:
-I contacted the American Board of Sleep Medicine, they are very interested in us joining, and they say that AT LEAST four ABEM docs have contacted them in the last couple of months, which is significant right @Birdstrike
-I have sent out emails to ACEP, EMRA, SAEM, and AAEM asking if I can do a SurveyMonkey of their members for interest in Sleep. Literally no one has responded.
-I am setting up a date to meet with the ABEM legislative director in January- what they seem most interested in are raw numbers of interested EM doctors, so SEND ME ANYONE WHO MIGHT BE INTERESTED, ask around etc.

What I need from the SD hivemind:
-Any contact info from anyone interested in Sleep- this is the biggest issue
-Contact people at ACEP/EMRA/SAEM/AAEM because my emails enter a void.
-Any thoughts/brainstorming on what we can offer Sleep (knowledge of circadian issues etc), why we would want to do Sleep etc.

Any other thoughts, more brains on this are better.

Then I will work on a thread.

 

[cyanide12345678]

Awesome! I will work on a thread @BoardingDoc. Here's the rough up, I will take and and all suggestions and put it into a more polished thread.

What I've done:
-I contacted the American Board of Sleep Medicine, they are very interested in us joining, and they say that AT LEAST four ABEM docs have contacted them in the last couple of months, which is significant right @Birdstrike
-I have sent out emails to ACEP, EMRA, SAEM, and AAEM asking if I can do a SurveyMonkey of their members for interest in Sleep. Literally no one has responded.
-I am setting up a date to meet with the ABEM legislative director in January- what they seem most interested in are raw numbers of interested EM doctors, so SEND ME ANYONE WHO MIGHT BE INTERESTED, ask around etc.

What I need from the SD hivemind:
-Any contact info from anyone interested in Sleep- this is the biggest issue
-Contact people at ACEP/EMRA/SAEM/AAEM because my emails enter a void.
-Any thoughts/brainstorming on what we can offer Sleep (knowledge of circadian issues etc), why we would want to do Sleep etc.

Any other thoughts, more brains on this are better.

Then I will work on a thread.

Please post the email you sent to ABEM and ABSM and what email address did you send that to?

I’ll gladly copy paste your email and shoot them one on my own in support of your cause 🤣

 

[cyanide12345678]

Plus sleep medicine allows for entrepreneurship and it’s still easy to start a sleep lab. So I’m all for the opportunity to do sleep medicine