SMP Did More Harm Than Good....Need Advice.

[sg808]

Hi Everyone,

So I need some advice regarding applying this cycle. I recently finished completing the 1st year of a 2 year special master's program.

My undergraduate cum gpa was a 3.6 & sci gpa was 3.3 and I was told by my undergrad pre med adviser that my science gpa was too low for osteopathic medical schools and it would be in my best interest to take more upper level science courses to improve my science gpa and show medical schools that I can handle upper level science courses.

That being said, I enrolled in a SMP at a medical school.

Out of the all the classes I took this year, I got 1 C & 2 C+'s, with the rest beings B's. I started off with the C's in the beginning of the year, but ended better with upward trend of B's. My gpa as of the 1st year is about 2.6.

What I was wondering is how is the 2.6 graduate gpa going to look on my application? Will this negatively affect me from getting in? I do plan on retaking the courses that I got a C in during the 2nd yr of the program & hoping to get B's or better in them.

With regards to other aspects of my application, my mcat score for the old exam two times was a 20 (7,7,6), which I know is horrible and doesn't look good. I think I did poorly both times because I didn't study the right away and did not do enough practice, & apply what I was learning in content review to the passages. I am planning on retaking the new exam this summer & will put more emphasis on practice/practice tests during my studying.

As for extracurricular, I have a good amount of clinical, & shadowing experience & outside volunteer work - but I feel like none of this will matter if I don't have good grades/MCAT scores.

I am bit loss on what to do now or what to do next, so any advice or tips would be greatly appreciated! I know that MCAT retake is a definite and as well as retaking my courses. I guess my main concern is damage from the SMP irreversible.

Thank you all for your help!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[mathnerd88]

I believe the 20 on your MCAT score is more damaging than your GPA. You'll need to retake those classes and score much higher on the MCAT to within range of DO schools.

Your GPA was fine for DO schools previously...I don't know why your health committee wanted you to take SMP. You just needed a decent MCAT score (at least 27.)

I would recommend not applying this cycle and beef up your app. You'll need months of studying to get MCAT score up.

B's still count as 3.0, so it will still decrease your cGPA and sGPA. To increase your GPA, you would need at least A- average in all of your SMP classes.

 

[zero0]

The damage from your SMP (which you shouldn't have been taking in the first place FYI) is very bad right now. You'll need straight A's from here on otherwise medical schools will think you won't be able to handle their curriculum. Your adviser was dead wrong, you were good to go GPA-wise and just needed an MCAT retake. Now you've dug yourself into a huge hole and will have to work your a$$ off to get out intact. Buckle down as if your life depended on it, because it does. Then, when these 2 completely unnecessary and costly years of your life are up, go back to your school and punch your adviser in the face (only if he's a dude though). Good luck.

 

[deleted480308]

I might be over. You did very poorly on standardized testing and have given evidence you don't do well with medical school classes

I'm sorry

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

I'm sorry to have to say that I believe it's time for you to make alternative career plans. You don't only have the SMP strike but also the 20 after taking the exam twice.

 

[Iridescent]

This is going to require an ungodly amount of effort to overcome, which judging from your past performance, isn't really possible. I would also second for you to look into different careers.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Exhibit 53,000 of pre med advisors paid to do a job and doing it so poorly that it ruins other people's potential careers.

A 3.6/3.3 isn't preventing anyone from getting into a DO school. That was simply teribble advice and its very unfortunate it had to come to this.

It's hard enough to overcome either a bad SMP or taking the MCAT twice and getting 20. I can't see any possible scenario where it's realistic to overcome both. You are capable of a lot in this world. A 3.6 gpa is a great gpa for many other fielda where MCAT and SMPs are meaningless; there are many fields you can have great success in. Best of luck

 

[LChristmas]

Two 20s and a blown attempt at SMP. You're toast, unfortunately.

 

[ZedsDed]

I might be over. You did very poorly on standardized testing and have given evidence you don't do well with medical school classes

I'm sorry

This. I'm sorry as well OP, but I can't see any way to overcome this. You will most likely have to find another career.

 

[mathnerd88]

Although the health advisor did give some horrible advice, the OP still only got a 20 on his MCAT. In fact, maybe this is a blessing in disguise. If the OP wouldn't be doing well in his med school classes, it would be far easier to know now than later.

I think a SMP is a good idea if he only got a 20 on two MCAT exams.

 

[sg808]

Hey everyone,

Thank you all for the replies. Ya I figured that I dug myself in pretty big hole with doing the SMP & looking back, wish I hadn't done and just spent that time studying for the mcats. As other users have posted, I have been thinking of alternative careers.

I think what I am going to do is finish up the program, study for the new mcat & give it my all this summer & retake those courses that I did poorly in & see where I am at after that and if it's not meant to be, then I am going to move on.

I know it's going forward it will be a up hill journey, but i just want to give it one more shot before giving up.

But again thank you for the replies.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Op, I would look at podiatry. I'm not sure what they will think with those SMP grades, but a 20 isnt too bad for pod school

 

[mathnerd88]

The new MCAT is significantly harder than the last one. You'll need at least a couple of months of studying and prepping to even attempt it. The exam is also almost twice as long as the old MCAT. You probably should've just retaken the classes you did poorly in undergrad and use those as retakes and increased your GPA that way.

Trying to attempt extremely hard medical school courses and have that count as your GPA for AACOMAS or AMCAS is suicide.

 

[ZedsDed]

B's still count as 3.0, so it will still decrease your cGPA and sGPA. To increase your GPA, you would need at least A- average in all of your SMP classes.

SMP and undergrad GPAs are not calculated together

 

[mathnerd88]

SMP and undergrad GPAs are not calculated together

Are you sure? It doesn't seem that way. It says AACOMAS would calculate your GPA overall too along with graduate, postbacc, and undergrad GPAs.

http://help.unicas.com:8888/aacomas...-process/grade-point-averages-gpas/index.html

 

[sg808]

Op, I would look at podiatry. I'm not sure what they will think with those SMP grades, but a 20 isnt too bad for pod school

I was looking into podiatry schools, but I think I would need to shadow a podiatrist before applying.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Hey everyone,

Thank you all for the replies. Ya I figured that I dug myself in pretty big hole with doing the SMP & looking back, wish I hadn't done and just spent that time studying for the mcats. As other users have posted, I have been thinking of alternative careers.

I think what I am going to do is finish up the program, study for the new mcat & give it my all this summer & retake those courses that I did poorly in & see where I am at after that and if it's not meant to be, then I am going to move on.

I know it's going forward it will be a up hill journey, but i just want to give it one more shot before giving up.

But again thank you for the replies.

OP, I understand it takes time to process something like this, but you need to face this head on and accept the facts. The sooner you transition into a new career, the better. Don't waste your time on the MCAT. Your master likely isn't worth much of anything too. If you are willing to do podiatry, I'd say you should jump on that ship as soon as possible. It shouldn't be hard to succeed in pod school after having done your masters.

 

[sg808]

The new MCAT is significantly harder than the last one. You'll need at least a couple of months of studying and prepping to even attempt it. The exam is also almost twice as long as the old MCAT. You probably should've just retaken the classes you did poorly in undergrad and use those as retakes and increased your GPA that way.

Trying to attempt extremely hard medical school courses and have that count as your GPA for AACOMAS or AMCAS is suicide.

That's definitely true. I do have this summer from now till end of august to study for new mcat, and hoping that will be enough. If anything, I do think some of the coursework in my SMP helped me prepare for it, particularly the biochem, so hoping it won't be so bad.

 

[sg808]

OP, I understand it takes time to process something like this, but you need to face this head on and accept the facts. The sooner you transition into a new career, the better. Don't waste your time on the MCAT. Your master likely isn't worth much of anything too. If you are willing to do podiatry, I'd say you should jump on that ship as soon as possible. It shouldn't be hard to succeed in pod school after having done your masters.

Definitely considering this, but even for podiatry schools isn't my mcat is still low? Bc the average mcat scores online for the podiatry schools i saw was 23-24.

 

[mathnerd88]

That's definitely true. I do have this summer from now till end of august to study for new mcat, and hoping that will be enough. If anything, I do think some of the coursework in my SMP helped me prepare for it, particularly the biochem, so hoping it won't be so bad.

With the increased topics (also added topics in humanities,) you would definitely need more studying time than just the summer. Most of the MCAT does not actually require memorizing or actually fully understanding the material presented. I believe the MCAT is designed to test people on their comprehension analysis. Memorizing small bits of information is not required to succeed on the MCAT. Rather, you need to have good critical analytic skills from passages, along with some basic knowledge of the sciences. High school biology/chemistry/physics is even enough. With biochemistry, you just have to know only the most common amino acids.

The practice exams from AAMC on the old MCAT were not a useful indicator of what was on the real deal back then. I would've scored 35-37 on those but I ended up only getting a 31 on the real thing.

 

[sg808]

The practice exams from AAMC on the old MCAT were not a useful indicator of what was on the real deal back then. I would've scored 35-37 on those but I ended up only getting a 31 on the real thing.[/QUOTE]

This is def. true. I was scoring 24-28 on the old practice exams, but end up with the 20.

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Definitely considering this, but even for podiatry schools isn't my mcat is still low? Bc the average mcat scores online for the podiatry schools i saw was 23-24.

I think it's still within the range, but it's true that if the SMP doesn't look well a 3rd, strong (~26), MCAT performance may help increase your chances.

 

[GypsyHummus]

Definitely considering this, but even for podiatry schools isn't my mcat is still low? Bc the average mcat scores online for the podiatry schools i saw was 23-24.

It deff depends on the pod school. With a 20, you can realistically expect to get into The ones with larger class siZes. Take a look at Kent state first, I know they have accepted people in high teens

 

[Stagg737]

Although the health advisor did give some horrible advice, the OP still only got a 20 on his MCAT. In fact, maybe this is a blessing in disguise. If the OP wouldn't be doing well in his med school classes, it would be far easier to know now than later.

I think a SMP is a good idea if he only got a 20 on two MCAT exams.

No. A SMP is a good idea for people with a decent MCAT and mediocre or poor grades (for example, I had a 29 MCAT with a 3.2 undergrad, then got ~3.8 in my master's). If he had only taken the MCAT once, then doing a SMP along with a retake to score at least mid-20s wouldn't be so bad. Getting a 20 twice is essentially a guaranteed rejection unless one has some extremely unique circumstances. Finding a medically relevant job while re-studying for the MCAT would have been a better use of OP's time.

To OP, as other's have said, the dream is over for now. Look into other careers, if you like medicine then check out podiatry school, or nursing, or becoming a paramedic. You can look into research positions or the pharmaceutical industry. If you decide 5 or 6 years down the road that you still want to be a doctor, you can retake some classes, retake the MCAT and try for a fresh start after you've matured and gained some new experiences. For now though, it's time to take a long look in the mirror and realize that it's time for something new.

 

[Goro]

More evidence that the majority of pre-med advisors are *****s.

My undergraduate cum gpa was a 3.6 & sci gpa was 3.3 and I was told by my undergrad pre med adviser that my science gpa was too low for osteopathic medical schools

You'd be DOA at my school. You need to ace an SMP. And SMPs are, based on what my school is like, about 1/4th of the load you have as a medical student. We have good data that a student like you, if admitted, would flounder in med school and likely fail COMLEX.

What I was wondering is how is the 2.6 graduate gpa going to look on my application? Will this negatively affect me from getting in? I do plan on retaking the courses that I got a C in during the 2nd yr of the program & hoping to get B's or better in them.

I can't sugar coat this.....this is a huge red flag. No medical school would be doing you a favor by admitting you, because you have yet to show any proof that you can handle med school.

With regards to other aspects of my application, my mcat score for the old exam two times was a 20 (7,7,6), which I know is horrible and doesn't look good. I think I did poorly both times because I didn't study the right away and did not do enough practice, & apply what I was learning in content review to the passages. I am planning on retaking the new exam this summer & will put more emphasis on practice/practice tests during my studying.

In case you weren't paying attention, it is. It's time for Plan B.
I guess my main concern is damage from the SMP irreversible.

 

[ZedsDed]

Are you sure? It doesn't seem that way. It says AACOMAS would calculate your GPA overall too along with graduate, postbacc, and undergrad GPAs.

http://help.unicas.com:8888/aacomas...-process/grade-point-averages-gpas/index.html

SMP is graduate GPA, not any of the above. And yes, I'm 100% sure

 

[mathnerd88]

SMP is graduate GPA, not any of the above. And yes, I'm 100% sure

Directly from AACOMAS:

AACOMAS will calculate numerous GPAs. The GPAs and hours will be summarized by academic year within undergraduate (freshman through senior year), post baccalaureate, and graduate work as well as summarized by area of study. There will also be a running total GPA for each academic year that will add all coursework together for an overall total GPA. The GPAs that will be calculated are:

• Overall
• By Term
• Freshman
• Sophomore
• Junior
• Senior
• Post Baccalaureate
• Graduate
• GPAs by course subject

So it appears that overall does mean ALL coursework after college too.

 

[sg808]

Directly from AACOMAS:

AACOMAS will calculate numerous GPAs. The GPAs and hours will be summarized by academic year within undergraduate (freshman through senior year), post baccalaureate, and graduate work as well as summarized by area of study. There will also be a running total GPA for each academic year that will add all coursework together for an overall total GPA. The GPAs that will be calculated are:

• Overall
• By Term
• Freshman
• Sophomore
• Junior
• Senior
• Post Baccalaureate
• Graduate
• GPAs by course subject

So it appears that overall does mean ALL coursework after college too.

I was under the impression it was 2 separate GPA's and I was told this previously. It's quite possible they may have changed it this year with the new application system and & everything.

 

[ZedsDed]

Directly from AACOMAS:

AACOMAS will calculate numerous GPAs. The GPAs and hours will be summarized by academic year within undergraduate (freshman through senior year), post baccalaureate, and graduate work as well as summarized by area of study. There will also be a running total GPA for each academic year that will add all coursework together for an overall total GPA. The GPAs that will be calculated are:

• Overall
• By Term
• Freshman
• Sophomore
• Junior
• Senior
• Post Baccalaureate
• Graduate
• GPAs by course subject

So it appears that overall does mean ALL coursework after college too.

It is poorly worded. It is calculated separately. There are literally countless threads on this, you don't have to take my word for it.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Why is this even a debate call any school you are interested in ask. Heck ask anybody involved in admission or better yet look at their answers to those questions in previous threads about this. SMP is a separate gpa. In part that can help explain on any MCAT/GPA grid the numbers for those who get in with sub 3.1 gpas and high MCATs; a mumber of those people complete SMPs and do well which is by far the most convincing way they have of showing ADCOMs they can handle medical school

 

[samac]

I think what I am going to do is finish up the program, study for the new mcat & give it my all this summer & retake those courses that I did poorly in & see where I am at after that and if it's not meant to be, then I am going to move on.

I know it's going forward it will be a up hill journey, but i just want to give it one more shot before giving up.

This was your one more shot. You messed up your last shot. Don't waste the money for the second year. You're done dude.

 

[princekc]

Two 20s and a blown attempt at SMP. You're toast, unfortunately.

I disagree!

 

[princekc]

This was your one more shot. You messed up your last shot. Don't waste the money for the second year. You're done dude.

Another disagreement!

 

[deleted480308]

I disagree!

Don't be mean to the poor student

 

[samac]

Another disagreement!

. . . Well ok.
Very strong argument you have there.

 

[kinzav]

You seem like a solid PA applicant with that GPA and if you've accumulated 1000 hours of clinical experience. They go almost solely off GPA and GRE, and having that amount specific amount of experience, so just take the (much easier) GRE and you could be well on your way to a great career.

 

[mathnerd88]

Why is this even a debate call any school you are interested in ask. Heck ask anybody involved in admission or better yet look at their answers to those questions in previous threads about this. SMP is a separate gpa. In part that can help explain on any MCAT/GPA grid the numbers for those who get in with sub 3.1 gpas and high MCATs; a mumber of those people complete SMPs and do well which is by far the most convincing way they have of showing ADCOMs they can handle medical school

Schools are often not very helpful. They always encourage the applicant to apply and that they have a chance. They get more money from the application fees also.

Everyone definitely has a chance...it's all about whether you want to apply knowing you only have a ten percent shot of getting in vs. someone else who has a 70% chance of acceptance. You also need to gauge if you have the money to apply. Application fees are extremely expensive.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Schools are often not very helpful. They always encourage the applicant to apply and that they have a chance. They get more money from the application fees also.

Everyone definitely has a chance...it's all about whether you want to apply knowing you only have a ten percent shot of getting in vs. someone else who has a 70% chance of acceptance.

Everyone definitely does not have a chance. That could not be further from the truth.

TONS and TONS of applicants apply to schools every year they have no business applying to. It's borderline insane how applicants work so hard and are bright enough to get the grades and MCATs they do then apply to schools that can be only categorized as blatantly horrible decisions.

https://www.aamc.org/download/321442/data/factstable1.pdf

I won't go into a long post about this but notice just how many schools take over 90% from in-state yet how over half the applicant pool is out of state. You might as well have an entire ceremony lighting $$ on fire instead of spending money applying to those kind of schools.

 

[mathnerd88]

Everyone definitely does not have a chance. That could not be further from the truth.

TONS and TONS of applicants apply to schools every year they have no business applying to. It's borderline insane how applicants work so hard and are bright enough to get the grades and MCATs they do then apply to schools that can be only categorized as blatantly horrible decisions.

https://www.aamc.org/download/321442/data/factstable1.pdf

I won't go into a long post about this but notice just how many schools take over 90% from in-state yet how over half the applicant pool is out of state. You might as well have an entire ceremony lighting $$ on fire instead of spending money applying to those kind of schools.

When you apply, you will always have a chance of getting accepted, even if the chance is only 0.5%. Not applying means you will have 0% chance.

AMCAS is not the same as AACOMAS. Most of the DO schools are private and not completely in-state friendly.

Also, matriculants are different than acceptances. You cannot compare the two. Many matriculants do not go to their OOS schools because it costs significantly more. If I got into both my in-state school and a school elsewhere that's far more expensive, which one do you think I would choose?

However, I would definitely go OOS if I have no other choice (when my in state medical school rejects me.) There is definitely some favoritism for those in-state, but it doesn't mean there's definitely no chance for OOS applicants.

 

[IslandStyle808]

It is poorly worded. It is calculated separately. There are literally countless threads on this, you don't have to take my word for it.

They actually did calculate a total GPA for me on the old format. When I spoke with some schools, they used my total GPA and not my ugGPA (they have cut offs for interviews). As to the GPA used, its under the discretion of the school. Not all schools use ugGPA, there will be those handful that do combine gGPA and ugGPA (there are MD schools that do this).

 

[sg808]

As few of the above posters have pointed out, I know that my chances are slim and I'm not going to sugarcoat that or what has happened.

As of now, I want to give it one more shot in retaking the mcats, and do well in my retakes. Ya this will cost money, but I don't want to give up that easily. I know quite a few people who did the program I did, with retakes & retakes of mcats, & were still able to manage in getting interviews/acceptances at my school. So I don't think my chances are completely impossible, but they aren't good as other users have mentioned.

Plan B is definitely as of now either podiatry or PA school. Idk I just feel like if I don't give it one more go, I may regret it later on.

 

[deleted480308]

I wish you well

 

[ZedsDed]

They actually did calculate a total GPA for me on the old format. When I spoke with some schools, they used my total GPA and not my ugGPA (they have cut offs for interviews). As to the GPA used, its under the discretion of the school. Not all schools use ugGPA, there will be those handful that do combine gGPA and ugGPA (there are MD schools that do this).

I have no idea what you are talking about. I am inclined to think that either:
A.) You are mistaken
B.) You took undergraduate credits somehow
C.) Mistakes were made in calculating your GPA and/or 1 school somewhere decided to combine the GPAs. This has nothing to do with the way AMCAS calculates your GPA.
If you are by some miracle correct, you are literally the only person I have ever heard say this

 

[kenjixshadow]

@sg808 If I was in your position, I would forget about med school and go for the alternative career. The new MCAT is much more difficult and retake classes to bring up your GPA, assuming about 0.1 of a difference, are such a waste of time and money.

Aside podiatry and PA, you can look at AA (Anesthesiologist Assistant). There are only 10 schools and can practice in 15 states. Salary is on the uptrend 100k+.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anesthesiologist_assistant

Or RN then go to NP or CRNA path later.

 

[IslandStyle808]

I have no idea what you are talking about. I am inclined to think that either:
A.) You are mistaken
B.) You took undergraduate credits somehow
C.) Mistakes were made in calculating your GPA and/or 1 school somewhere decided to combine the GPAs. This has nothing to do with the way AMCAS calculates your GPA.
If you are by some miracle correct, you are literally the only person I have ever heard say this

Problem with SDN is the fact that members think what works for the majority of schools = all schools. SDN members then drink this koolaid without realizing the exceptions.

If you think I am the only person who has said this, then you have not searched for threads enough.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/grad-school-gpa-does-it-actually-matter.796298/page-3 (page 3 shows example schools)

My state school (MD) gives points for a master and PhD done. I have faculty who said they combine the two GPA. This is not the majority mind you, this is just a handful. In the end, it is what the school thinks that counts.

 

[ZedsDed]

Problem with SDN is the fact that members think what works for the majority of schools = all schools. SDN members then drink this koolaid without realizing the exceptions.

If you think I am the only person who has said this, then you have not searched for threads enough.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/grad-school-gpa-does-it-actually-matter.796298/page-3 (page 3 shows example schools)

My state school (MD) gives points for a master and PhD done. I have faculty who said they combine the two GPA. This is not the majority mind you, this is just a handful.

The collective wisdom I am referring to is those of AdComs who post regularly (I have my own anecdotal story but it is irrelevant.) I applied to every established SMP in the country, and was accepted into several; most were very clear that their program would not touch your uGPA. I don't doubt your sincerity, I'm just saying what your school does is very unorthodox (and completely different from what AMCAS does.) Also, If I were you my, initial reaction would be suspicion of what one or two faculty members were telling me (look how wrong pre-med advisors are on the regular!)

 

[IslandStyle808]

The collective wisdom I am referring to is those of AdComs who post regularly (I have my own anecdotal story but it is irrelevant.) I applied to every established SMP in the country, and was accepted into several; most were very clear that their program would not touch your uGPA. I don't doubt your sincerity, I'm just saying what your schools does is very unorthodox (and completely different from what AMCAS does.)

Correct. The AMCAS has its own calculations and the schools have theirs. It was just that those particular school just took that total GPA from the AACOMAS. Could it be an error? Possible, but that is a really big mistake. Could it be their way of calculating GPA? This is possible, and is more likely.

There are too many people who interpret the majority of schools do as if all schools do it. I am trying to stop members from interpreting the facts wrong. It is always best to contact the schools about their policies before thinking what applies to the majority of schools applies to all.

 

[ZedsDed]

Correct. The AMCAS has its own calculations and the schools have theirs. It was just that those particular school just took that total GPA from the AACOMAS. Could it be an error? Possible, but that is a really big mistake. Could it be their way of calculating GPA? This is possible, and is more likely.

There are too many people who interpret the majority of schools do as if all schools do it. I am trying to stop members from interpreting the facts wrong. It is always best to contact the schools about their policies before thinking what applies to the majority of schools applies to all.

Please PM me the school, so I can look into this further

 

[Blunt Dissection]

As few of the above posters have pointed out, I know that my chances are slim and I'm not going to sugarcoat that or what has happened.

As of now, I want to give it one more shot in retaking the mcats, and do well in my retakes. Ya this will cost money, but I don't want to give up that easily. I know quite a few people who did the program I did, with retakes & retakes of mcats, & were still able to manage in getting interviews/acceptances at my school. So I don't think my chances are completely impossible, but they aren't good as other users have mentioned.

Plan B is definitely as of now either podiatry or PA school. Idk I just feel like if I don't give it one more go, I may regret it later on.

If you're planning on prepping for that new MCAT, I seriously hope you're dedicating at minimum 3 months to solid MCAT. If you're planning on doing your MCAT studies along with year 2 of your SMP, you can forget about doing well on either.

 

[sg808]

If you're planning on prepping for that new MCAT, I seriously hope you're dedicating at minimum 3 months to solid MCAT. If you're planning on doing your MCAT studies along with year 2 of your SMP, you can forget about doing well on either.

I am doing that. I am studying for it over the summer between my 1st/2nd yr. And already started actually.