Sobering realities and statistics of AA

[Ernham]

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Wow, I just wish there was one non-ignorant person to balance out every ignorant one.

Why would someone(s) open up their mouth and speak with authority on something they obviously know nothing about.

Here is the actual text of "affirmative action." You really only need to read the first few section.

I bet 99.999% of you have never even read it before.

http://www.eeoc.gov/35th/thelaw/eo-11246.html

 

[Entei]

...but I would be much more inclined to believe someone who actually posts intelligent, insightful, and mature comments and claims to be doing a surgery residency than someone who spouts insults and claims to have a 41/3.89 from Yale. 🙄

Originally posted by alphabeta53
surgery residency...where does she get the time to surf these boards? Where is her residency? womansurg might be lying...

 

[SistaKaren]

Originally posted by Ernham
Wow, I just wish there was one non-ignorant person to balance out every ignorant one.

Why would someone(s) open up their mouth and speak with authority on something they obviously know nothing about.

Here is the actual text of "affirmative action." You really only need to read the first few section.

I bet 99.999% of you have never even read it before.

http://www.eeoc.gov/35th/thelaw/eo-11246.html

I think you're casting stones from a glass house, buddy. Nothing in that executive order contradicts what I said. You're the one saying that it's a reward system. That notion is absurd. This is what it says: (I apologize for the redundancy, since you likely have it memorized...) It is the policy of the Government of the United States to provide equal opportunity in Federal employment for all qualified persons, to prohibit discrimination in employment because of race, creed, color, or national origin, and to promote the full realization of equal employment opportunity through a positive, continuing program in each executive department and agency.

Now...does this not indicate that there somehow was not equal employment opportunity at the time? This order was issued in order to end that trend.

Please tell me how I'm wrong. Because I'm not seeing it.

And stop using ad hominem arguments....it only makes you look bad.

**Though I will concede this..it doesn't mention gender...which I thought it did...

 

[UCSBMed1]

Originally posted by Entei
...but I would be much more inclined to believe someone who actually posts intelligent, insightful, and mature comments and claims to be doing a surgery residency than someone who spouts insults and claims to have a 41/3.89 from Yale. 🙄

 

[vixenell]

Originally posted by SistaKaren
**Though I will concede this..it doesn't mention gender...which I thought it did...

You're not hallucinating; his link was to the original text of the EO. It's been amended several times; women were added later on; try to search on an up-to-date version.

 

[Ernham]

I say: "AA was created to insure that minority groups were hired, not excluded. It was never meant to rectify PAST discrimination."

You say:" I beg to differ."

I say:" Well, here, read the actual document yourself and dispell yourself of such idiotic notions"

You say:"But...but...but that doesn't refute anything I said."

Puhleez sistah.

 

[vixenell]

Now that I'm off work, i can finish responding...

Originally posted by Ernham
"Like I said, I PERSONALLY don't consider it racial discrimination (I'm not Webster, and I'm not an idiot, I know what the dictionary definition is). That would require a complete dismissal of one's application, with no factors other than race considered PERIOD. That's what AA sought to prevent; and that doesn't currently happens to anyone."

Look, it doesn't even matter what you "consider it." It is what it is.

There is a difference between discrimination (exclusion based on prejudice) and inclusion (an attempt to overcome discrimination). ORMs aren't being rejected because they have no rhythm or can't jump(or whatever the stereotype of the week is). No one's "out to get" all of the ORM applicants. If AA was truly a discriminatory practice, the admissions rates among minorities would be near 100%, and ORM admissions rates would fall (slightly, as there are many more ORM applicants)

"At what point did having money negate racism? If you believe that crap, you're lying to yourself."

Oh, get off it. You haven't suffered any serious racism. BS.

What do you consider serious racism? Why do you insist on making this personal? Stay on topic.

"Perhaps URMs arent as interested in medicine; not everyone aspires to be a physician (I know it sounds, crazy, but its true)."

It's far more reaching than that. For one. from my experience, URMs just don't seem to have the fortitude for the science classes. I know; I've tutored a number of URMs. They don't understand that they must not only "understand the material," but they must do lots and lots of problems to cement that understanding, and that I can't give them some magic advice to make the class "easy." About half of those I tutor are URMs and the vast majority have that mind set.

Finally! An actual observation! 🙄

Besides, don't most people who seek tutoring have problems like this? Isn't that why we have tutoring? How old are these people, anyway? Because I know that I didn't learn how to really study until the middle of my freshman year of college (I think thats true for most people). Anyway, I seriously hope that you've helped these people out, and not just dismissed them as a lost cause. Definately don't base your idea of all URMs on a few kids who needed tutoring; thats pretty ignorant.

"besides, AA isn't really actively recruiting doctors from the ghetto."

And why do you suppose that is?

Because recruitment now is being used as sort of topical ointment; applied only after the damage is done, after they've "lost" their targets, ie, middle and high school, even college. While it is effective at times, the damage underneath persists. The ideal solution would be to recruit before it begins; (elementary school), in a sort of ongoing mentoring program that is carried through high school; that way, AA won't be needed in the long run.

Now that I think about it, AA overall is like a big bottle of calamine lotion... its easy to get poison ivy, apply it, get it again, apply it again, when in reality, the best solution is to stay out of the friggin woods.... until we can find our way out, we have to keep an extra bottle just in case.

Its official; I'm the queen of cheesy analogies.

 

[Ernham]

"There is a difference between discrimination (exclusion based on prejudice) and inclusion (an attempt to overcome discrimination). "

I'm not going to debate the obvious. You can continue to believe whatever fanciful notions you wish if it makes you sleep better at night.


"What do you consider serious racism? Why do you insist on making this personal? Stay on topic."

Serious racism: A teacher purposely giving you a lower grade because of your race.

Not serious racism: Being pulled over because you are driving a BMW through the ghetto. Serious annoyance but it shouldn't affect anyone's aptitude.

"Besides, don't most people who seek tutoring have problems like this?"

No. The majority of persons I see have problems with conceptual nature of the course, not putting in the time working on the problems.

"How old are these people, anyway? "

Oh, I'd say about 19. The URMs tend to be a year or two older.

"Because I know that I didn't learn how to really study until the middle of my freshman year of college (I think that's true for most people). Anyway, I seriously hope that you've helped these people out, and not just dismissed them as a lost cause."

Well, I don't dismiss someone I'm tutoring, but I'm not around to see if they do indeed do the problems or not. I try to make sure they understand the concepts, then they have to do the legwork; those that do get A's & B's, and those that don't are lucky to get C's and then they are upset because: "the problems on the test weren't like the ones you showed me"


"Definitely don't base your idea of all URMs on a few kids who needed tutoring; that's pretty ignorant."

I don't, and I don't need to. All one would need to do, to see why so few URMs apply to med school, is look at what a tiny percent of them actually go into any of the sciences. I think it's around 10%. The majority go into "soft" majors where they need only rote memorization of facts, like history, psychology, sociology, or even business.


"Now that I think about it, AA overall is like a big bottle of calamine lotion... its easy to get poison ivy, apply it, get it again, apply it again, when in reality, the best solution is to stay out of the friggin woods.... until we can find our way out, we have to keep an extra bottle just in case."

So you believe the ghetto high schooler is a lost cause, huh?

 

[SistaKaren]

Originally posted by Ernham
I say: "AA was created to insure that minority groups were hired, not excluded. It was never meant to rectify PAST discrimination."

You say:" I beg to differ."

I say:" Well, here, read the actual document yourself and dispell yourself of such idiotic notions"

You say:"But...but...but that doesn't refute anything I said."

Puhleez sistah.

I disagreed with the underlined portion. My point still stands. Instead of addressing it, you misrepresent what I said.

Yup...I knew I shouldn't have expected actual intelligent discourse about this subject... 🙂

 

[vixenell]

Originally posted by Ernham
Serious racism: A teacher purposely giving you a lower grade because of your race.

Not serious racism: Being pulled over because you are driving a BMW through the ghetto. Serious annoyance but it shouldn't affect anyone's aptitude.

In that case, yes I have.

No. The majority of persons I see have problems with conceptual nature of the course, not putting in the time working on the problems.

That comes mostly from high school preparation; most underfunded schools basically teach student to learn just enough to graduate, and some good schools actually expect more. I've been to both types of schools, luckily and unluckily

"Definitely don't base your idea of all URMs on a few kids who needed tutoring; that's pretty ignorant."

I don't, and I don't need to. All one would need to do, to see why so few URMs apply to med school, is look at what a tiny percent of them actually go into any of the sciences. I think it's around 10%. The majority go into "soft" majors where they need only rote memorization of facts, like history, psychology, sociology, or even business.

See how easy it is to make up statistics? Perhaps this is why most people don't take your "groundbreaking" posts seriously.

According to the national science foundation (appendix 2-17,as of 1998) about 17% of all US degrees are science & engineering related (physical, biological, agricultural, mathematics, computer sceince, psychology, engineering). About 22.4 % of white college graduates had a S&E related major. 20.4% of blacks graduated with the same degrees. 22.4% hispanics, 20.7% native americans, 27.7% foreign students, 37.5% asians.

So you believe the ghetto high schooler is a lost cause, huh?

Well, thats not what I said.

What I do believe is that recruitment in high school is, in most cases, too little too late. I said that it does work at times, but is not nearly as affective as getting an earlier start.

 

[drkingdingaling]

ERNham,

Please, step away from the pipe
Try with all your might
You always talk about race
But never have a case

You'll never have a wife
Because your so uncool
U hate all the black people
Cause you cant attend med school.



😀

 

[womansurg]

Originally posted by alphabeta53
womansurg,

you seem to have a lot of strong opinions regarding me.

I hope I'm not mistaken, in which case I will apologize...but I seem to remember an alphabeta who posted a bunch of inflammatory anti-osteopathic nonsense not too long ago. Kind of chapped my ass, to be honest.

Hey...thanks to you guys who got my back on this thread 🙂 !

Originally posted by Ernham
Yes, I'm sure the admission office called them all up and informed them they wouldn't have got in without it

Actually I was dating one of the guys, and since it was such a small community, I got to know the six friends reasonably well. So we talked - like friends do - about scores, grades, backgrounds...

 

[Ernham]

"According to the national science foundation (appendix 2-17,as of 1998) about 17% of all US degrees are science & engineering related (physical, biological, agricultural, mathematics, computer sceince, psychology, engineering). About 22.4 % of white college graduates had a S&E related major. 20.4% of blacks graduated with the same degrees. 22.4% hispanics, 20.7% native americans, 27.7% foreign students, 37.5% asians. "

http://www.nsf.gov/sbe/srs/seind02/c2/tt02-09.htm

Go ahead and do the math yourself(on natural science). By the way, half of those aren't even sciences. That probably included social science, psychology, and other such classes that are not really sciences, even computer science is borderline.

 

[Ernham]

"Actually I was dating one of the guys, and since it was such a small community, I got to know the six friends reasonably well. So we talked - like friends do - about scores, grades, backgrounds..."


Haha. Whatever. Yeah, I bet you dated all six. You are joke, womansburg. I grow tired of pointing out your lies. There is no way that the six in your class come from a low SES group. As a matter of fact, the chance that just ONE of them is far less than 1 in 10000, yet you continue with your lies. You further state that you KNOW they got in via AA, something which YOU COULDN'T EVEN KNOW. You adress this by posting fanciful stories" but, but, but... I dated one of them."

 

[JM.]

Originally posted by Ernham
Haha. Whatever. Yeah, I bet you dated all six. You are joke, womansburg. I grow tired of pointing out your lies. There is no way that the six in your class come from a low SES group. As a matter of fact, the chance that just ONE of them is far less than 1 in 10000, yet you continue with your lies. You further state that you KNOW they got in via AA, something which YOU COULDN'T EVEN KNOW. You adress this by posting fanciful stories" but, but, but... I dated one of them."

Womansurg is not a liar. Calling someone a liar is oftern much easier that having to stomach and accept what they say. Next time you wanna debate come prepared to listen as well.

 

[JM.]

oh - and alphabeta -

People have strong opinions about you because you post like a jerk. Plain and simple. Plain old anonymous nastiness is your game and just about everyone is tired of it.

 

[vixenell]

Originally posted by Ernham
"According to the national science foundation (appendix 2-17,as of 1998) about 17% of all US degrees are science & engineering related (physical, biological, agricultural, mathematics, computer sceince, psychology, engineering). About 22.4 % of white college graduates had a S&E related major. 20.4% of blacks graduated with the same degrees. 22.4% hispanics, 20.7% native americans, 27.7% foreign students, 37.5% asians. "

http://www.nsf.gov/sbe/srs/seind02/c2/tt02-09.htm

Go ahead and do the math yourself(on natural science). By the way, half of those aren't even sciences. That probably included social science, psychology, and other such classes that are not really sciences, even computer science is borderline.

Umm... i excluded social sciences in my original calculations, but even when only natural science is taken into account, differences in URMs and non-URMs (namely whites, asianas are moreso an outlier) aren't that momumental (~1%). So its really unfair (or even better, pointless) for you to say that URMs are any less willing/able to pursue natural sciences.

Less so than asians? Of course. Thats a given. But whites fall into that category with URMs as well.

 

[Ernham]

So, you think the fact that whites are over 70% more likely to get a degree in the real sciences is insignificant??!?!?? Either your calculator or your common sense is broken. This isn't even factoring in that blacks are less likely to go to college to begin with. The difference is quite significant. It you can't/don't do the pre-med courses, you can't apply to med school. Simple.

 

[Ernham]

Originally posted by jmwalker
Womansurg is not a liar. Calling someone a liar is oftern much easier that having to stomach and accept what they say. Next time you wanna debate come prepared to listen as well.

She is a liar, a proven liar.

 

[drkingdingaling]

Give it the hell up!!
There's more to life than kkk meetings and posting AA threads on SDN. go grab a sundae or read the paper or something. You have got some serious issues that only the Lord can deal with. I look at this way, I have something billions of people want but dont have a chance of getting, the OPPORTUNITY to be educated in the greatest country in the history of mankind. Appreciate the fact that you just happen to be born here. Is AA unfair maybe, Is life unfair, I dont know ask the kid in some third world country without food, clothes, or clean water.

 

[kaos]

Originally posted by womansurg
Sucks to be DW...

LOL!!!

 

[Woots32]

Originally posted by Ernham
She is a liar, a proven liar.

Alright, that does it.

Everyone take a deep breath, and slowly step away from the thread. 😉

Ernham - lets see this proof you claim to have on a well respected member of the SDN community. 😡

alphabeta - give it a rest already. Hopefully when you start school you'll meet some nice surgical residents who'll remove the pole from your arse for free. 😛

 

[kaos]

Maybe we should let imtiaz rule with his iron fist--I mean moderate-- this forum. 🙁

 

[womansurg]

Originally posted by Ernham
I grow tired of pointing out your lies. There is no way that the six in your class come from a low SES group

Why don't you point out your own lack of reading comprehension. I never said the six students were low SES. I said there were six black students in the class.

You further state that you KNOW they got in via AA, something which YOU COULDN'T EVEN KNOW. You adress this by posting fanciful stories" but, but, but... I dated one of them."

Hehe...what a dingleberry.

I guess in an existential sort of way I don't KNOW that the world exists, but that's not the burden of proof most people rely on. Generally, if you have an institution with average gpa of 3.7 and MCAT of 31, and a URM student is admitted with a gpa less than 3.0 and an MCAT in the mid 20s, in an environment of aggressive AA and minority recruitment...well, even someone with your impaired cognition might be able to draw some assumptions there.

Then again...apparently not.

 

[Ernham]

"Why don't you point out your own lack of reading comprehension. I never said the six students were low SES. I said there were six black students in the class."

It goes back to your claim of your black students "being the sole voice for anyone that wasn't from white collar suburbia."


"Hehe...what a dingleberry."

A bit nervous because I called your bluff, eh?

"I guess in an existential sort of way I don't KNOW that the world exists, but that's not the burden of proof most people rely on."

Non-sequitur. We are talking about the veracity of your claim of KNOWING, not assuming.

"Generally, if you have an institution with average gpa of 3.7 and MCAT of 31, and a URM student is admitted with a gpa less than 3.0 and an MCAT in the mid 20s, in an environment of aggressive AA and minority recruitment...well, even someone with your impaired cognition might be able to draw some assumptions there."

(37+25)/2 = 31

Wow! There's some simple math for you. Averages don't mean much, particularly in medical school admissions where luck and ECs can play equal roles. You should know better.

"Then again...apparently not."

Squirm, worm

 

[Explosivo]

My pants itch. I think it was the fabric softener I used on them. I dunno, I probably won't be using Snuggles anymore.

 

[JM.]

omg puppet man!

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!

You could have poison ivy you know.

 

[Gumshoe]

AA is part of the game. Live with it. It's a biproduct of American idealism and the liberal runaway or cascade process. What should concern you more is the legalization/acceptance of gay marriages. Now THAT will have an impact on society ... and our children way more than AA

My thoughts,

Gumshoe

 

[drkingdingaling]

Originally posted by Gumshoe
AA is part of the game. Live with it. It's a biproduct of American idealism and the liberal runaway or cascade process. What should concern you more is the legalization/acceptance of gay marriages. Now THAT will have an impact on society ... and our children way more than AA

My thoughts,

Gumshoe

hear hear

 

[JM.]

Squirm, worm

 

[womansurg]

Originally posted by Ernham
We are talking about the veracity of your claim of KNOWING, not assuming...

Actually that's what you're talking about (in a pathologically fixated way). Everyone else is talking about affirmative action.

I've been quite up front with my identity and background on this board - everything short of using my real name as my user ID. Everyone who is not a newbie knows where I went to med school, where I've done residency, my major in college, my grades, scores, eye color, husband's name, shoe size (six), and about half of the events of my childhood. What part, exactly, are you concerned about the 'veracity' of, Sherlock?

(37+25)/2 = 31
Wow! There's some simple math for you. Averages don't mean much, particularly in medical school admissions where luck and ECs can play equal roles. You should know better.

Oh, so these students clearly did NOT benefit from AA then. In that case, what the hell are you whining about?

Jesus, you can't even keep straight what side of the fence you're arguing from. Trying to keep it straight that you're refuting the other person seems to be about as much as your brain can handle.

 

[Ernham]

I'm not one that's inclined to carry on debates with persons that have clearly demonstrated that they have no compunction to tell the truth, or any moral compass at all for that matter, womansburg. But I'm actually curious as to why a gaggle of black SDNers didn't jump down your throat for the initial assertion that the 6 black students had been given their position merely due to AA. I know if I would have done so, there would be a dozen or so posts pointing out how "wrong" that assumption was. Curious, that. But these assertions are somehow OK because you were trying to defend AA in your own clumsy, idiotic way. The entire scenario is just dripping with irony.

 

[Explosivo]

Originally posted by Ernham
She is a liar, a proven liar.

Give it up man. Just agree to disagree and go on your merry way.

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by womansurg
In my class of 220 we had 6 black students. All were admitted, in part, because of added considerations from AA. All graduated.

Originally posted by Ernham
But I'm actually curious as to why a gaggle of black SDNers didn't jump down your throat for the initial assertion that the 6 black students had been given their position merely due to AA. I know if I would have done so, there would be a dozen or so posts pointing out how "wrong" that assumption was.

I do disagree with womansurg on this and I find it VERY hard to believe that all of the black medical students she's referring needed AA. It's like a said in another thread, when a URM with a 25 MCAT and 3.3 GPA gets into medical school it's because of AA but when a white person with the same stats gets in, it's NOT because of AA 🙄 What are the numbers say conclusively that a URM needed AA to get in?

Perhaps the reason URM's from SDN didn't address her on that statement is because overall she is very helpful to the SDN community and we don't see her as the flaming racist you obviously are.

 

[womansurg]

Originally posted by Ernham
I'm actually curious as to why a gaggle of black SDNers didn't jump down your throat for the initial assertion that the 6 black students had been given their position merely due to AA.

First of all, you're an idiot. But that much is obvious. Let me try to use smaller words and simpler concepts for you.

It would, in fact, be stereotyping if one made an assumption about academic performance based on physical appearnces, like race. If, on the other hand, you knew the person and knew his or her numbers, knew he'd been admitted through an aggressive minority recruitment process (which the school rightfully took great pride in)...then that would not be an assumption, but rather an observation. Damn, there're those big words again. Well, do your best to keep up.

Furthermore, you're an idiot. (Did I say that already?)

 

[Street Philosopher]

 

[womansurg]

Oh, one other thing. You're an idiot. Wait, I said that already.

I am, as is obvious, a strong proponent of AA. As part of that, I think it's imperative that we are honest about what AA is and about what are the consequences of its application. The marketability of a person's underrepresented minority status increases his eligibility for positions for which he otherwise might not have been as competitive. That's the reality of how it is applied. So, an MCAT of 25 can land an URM in a solid state school, while an ORM might not get admission to even lower tier schools. Sure, there is variability. Other talents and offerings (being a child of alumni or of benefactors, unique life experiences...) can also boost one's brownie points for adcoms. But being an URM is widely recognized as one of those unique and desirable traits which is valuable in our current medical community. This attention to the social and humanistic aspect of medical care - and the rejection of the idea that subtle differences in abstract cognitive function can predict better performance as a caregiver - makes me intensely proud of the policy makers in our admissions departments.

And, as in the case of my six classmates, medical school performance is only loosely predicted by academic admission critieria. Folks get in, some struggle, some overcome, and some succeed grandly. What matters is the end product.

I got no problem with affirmative action.

 

[alphabeta53]

Originally posted by womansurg
Oh, one other thing. You're an idiot. Wait, I said that already.

I am, as is obvious, a strong proponent of AA. As part of that, I think it's imperative that we are honest about what AA is and about what are the consequences of its application. The marketability of a person's underrepresented minority status increases his eligibility for positions for which he otherwise might not have been as competitive. That's the reality of how it is applied. So, an MCAT of 25 can land an URM in a solid state school, while an ORM might not get admission to even lower tier schools. Sure, there is variability. Other talents and offerings (being a child of alumni or of benefactors, unique life experiences...) can also boost one's brownie points for adcoms. But being an URM is widely recognized as one of those unique and desirable traits which is valuable in our current medical community. This attention to the social and humanistic aspect of medical care - and the rejection of the idea that subtle differences in abstract cognitive function can predict better performance as a caregiver - makes me intensely proud of the policy makers in our admissions departments.

And, as in the case of my six classmates, medical school performance is only loosely predicted by academic admission critieria. Folks get in, some struggle, some overcome, and some succeed grandly. What matters is the end product.

I got no problem with affirmative action.

Womansurg, do you feel smarter by using big words in the wrong context? Silly woman, don't you have a practice to run instead of repeatedly calling someone an idiot? Nothing in your rather lengthy medical training indicate that you can't talk sense into Ernham?

 

[Cerberus]

Originally posted by alphabeta53
Womansurg, do you feel smarter by using big words in the wrong context? Silly woman, don't you have a practice to run instead of repeatedly calling someone an idiot? Nothing in your rather lengthy medical training indicate that you can't talk sense into Ernham?

 

[Street Philosopher]

Originally posted by womansurg
This attention to the social and humanistic aspect of medical care - and the rejection of the idea that subtle differences in abstract cognitive function can predict better performance as a caregiver - makes me intensely proud of the policy makers in our admissions departments.

Just to play devil's advocate here... Why can't these so-called "better caregivers" be among non-URM groups as well?

Or will anyone argue that both URM and non-URM applicants get equal treatment in regards to overlooking low stats in favor of "caregiver" qualities?

It is one thing to argue the need for diversity... quite another to suggest that one group has better people skills than another.

 

[womansurg]

Originally posted by Street Philosopher
It is one thing to argue the need for diversity... quite another to suggest that one group has better people skills than another.

People skills are relative to the population with which you're interacting. My touch-feely, cooperative approach to patient care is a welcomed change for many of the younger generation folks I deal with. Older folks sometimes can't get past the idea that a good doctor is a tall, aloof man in a white coat who uses a lot of technical jargon and tells them exactly what to do.

The effect of introducing minority perspective reaches beyond just immediate patient interactions. The environment of the medical community becomes altered, in ways which make it more hospitable to members of that group. I've used as examples of this some of my own experiences as the first woman in my surgery training program for a number of years. Several times I've effectively cared for indigent or mentally ill patients who were dismissed and even belittled by our stereotypical arrogant male surgeons. My presence has helped to enforce an environment of tolerance and kindness which was sometimes lacking. And in a more obvious example: the recent hiring of a black surgeon has essentially halted the occasional racist stereotyping which previously occurred. His cultural identity has had a positive effect on our department.

 

[alphabeta53]

Originally posted by womansurg
People skills are relative to the population with which you're interacting. My touch-feely, cooperative approach to patient care is a welcomed change for many of the younger generation folks I deal with. Older folks sometimes can't get past the idea that a good doctor is a tall, aloof man in a white coat who uses a lot of technical jargon and tells them exactly what to do.

The effect of introducing minority perspective reaches beyond just immediate patient interactions. The environment of the medical community becomes altered, in ways which make it more hospitable to members of that group. I've used as examples of this some of my own experiences as the first woman in my surgery training program for a number of years. Several times I've effectively cared for indigent or mentally ill patients who were dismissed and even belittled by our stereotypical arrogant male surgeons. My presence has helped to enforce an environment of tolerance and kindness which was sometimes lacking. And in a more obvious example: the recent hiring of a black surgeon has essentially halted the occasional racist stereotyping which previously occurred. His cultural identity has had a positive effect on our department.

Therer are far too many generalizations in your argument. Being black or a woman doesn't make someone more touch-feely or a more compassionate caregiver. These qualities vary from individual to individual rather than race to race or gender to gender. There are more convincing arguments for AA than this.

 

[Street Philosopher]

So when you say people skills are relative to the patient population they are interacting with, what exactly as you saying here in the context of affirmative action? I'm being careful to not put words in your mouth.

The other paragraph highlights the benefits of diversity, something that is apparent to most people. If I may go out on a limb here, I think a lot of opponents of AA see the benefit of a diverse class. (myself definitely included)The issue for most opponents is of fairness, given their background assumption of a meritocratic society.

 

[womansurg]

Originally posted by Street Philosopher
I think a lot of opponents of AA see the benefit of a diverse class. (myself definitely included)The issue for most opponents is of fairness, given their background assumption of a meritocratic society.

It's certainly an imperfect system. But I see the positive effects of it on an ongoing basis. For me, the positive changes in the medical community which benefit the patient population override the claims of inequity by the rare individual who feels negatively impacted by it. By far.

And then, of course, there's that whole argument that AA actually IS the most fair way, due to the additional hardship of being URM in our society. That argument is valid, I think, but much less persuasive than that for promotion of much needed reformation of the homogeneous character of our medical care providers.

 

[vixenell]

I thought that womansurg's original comment was addressing moreso the ineffectiveness of using numbers alone to predict which candidates are better suited for the practice of medicine. This isn't just justification for low URM stats, but low ORM stats as well. So yes, devil's advocate, URMs and ORMs are capable of being great caregivers, regardless of stats.

Not trying to put words in anyone's mouth, but thats how I interpreted it.

 

[Ernham]

I said *over* 70%. I didn't bother doing the math with a calculator when I could easily SEE that it was over 70%.

Your own numbers show whites are well over twice as likely to pursue such degrees. What is the confusion?

 

[almondjoy]

... can you just give this topic a rest...
why can't we all just be friends???
😉

 

[Ryo-Ohki]

There's little value in engineered pseudo diversity. Don't try to sell me a diamond when all you have is cubic zirconium.