socialism

Started by mille125
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no, thats fear mongering and pre-assigning negative connotation based on perceived race or religion.


again responding to change in question - the islamic population is expected to grow to 2% by 2050. if holding the rate of attacks the same, the number of attacks by islamic terrorists that were currently stated would still statistically be lower than that of white supremacists, assuming the rates and numbers of white supremacists never change. 87x2=174 which is < 244.
 
no, thats fear mongering and pre-assigning negative connotation based on perceived race or religion.


again responding to change in question - the islamic population is expected to grow to 2% by 2050. if holding the rate of attacks the same, the number of attacks by islamic terrorists that were currently stated would still statistically be lower than that of white supremacists, assuming the rates and numbers of white supremacists never change. 87x2=174 which is < 244.
You're not understanding. Let me exaggerate it to help clarify.

If you have a group of 10 people and 5 people are killers, would you be concerned if this group increases in numbers. You would and if not, you should.

I'm not saying this is what's happening with Muslims but it's along the same lines. I'm also not saying whether or not people should be concerned about Islam. I'm just stating what the concerns are. It doesn't mean those concerns are valid, right, wrong, rational or not but they're still the concerns that people have. It's the perception and perception is reality.

Personally, I feel no need to fear any group because nearly all people are decent people that just want to live. It's really not rational to fear being murdered, being the victim of a terror attack, or being involved in a school shooting since there is a very small chance that any of these things will happen to you.

American black people are disproportionately responsible for violent crime in the US. You may not want to admit this but the data is clear on it. With that said, nearly all black people do not cause violent crime. The average black person in the US is much more likely to help you than to harm you and that goes for all people.
 
no, thats fear mongering and pre-assigning negative connotation based on perceived race or religion.


again responding to change in question - the islamic population is expected to grow to 2% by 2050. if holding the rate of attacks the same, the number of attacks by islamic terrorists that were currently stated would still statistically be lower than that of white supremacists, assuming the rates and numbers of white supremacists never change. 87x2=174 which is < 244.
And again, the murders are not the same. Terrorism targets random people to create fear in the public. It poses more a threat to me than a WS killing a gang member or a targeted killing that is not random. Either way, and again, since the beginning, we've been discussing ideologically based crimes.

What you're doing is sneaky and you're trying to be smart, but you're not. Youre using ideologically based murders only for muslims but all murders for WS. A better comparison would be all murders for both WS and muslims or only ideo murders for WS and muslims. Considering that islam is way overrepresented in the US prison system, it's likely including all murders committed by muslims would throw your weak argument in the trash where it belongs.
 
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your second argument is way out there.

using crime based on a percentage of population?

that matters not to innocents who are 3 times more likely to be hurt by a white supremacist than a muslim.

the whites that are "shooting up" mosques are the white supremacists who feel they have little political power, and they represent a minority of the white population. its called a "subsegment" of the population. and guess what - they are also "shooting up" temples and churches.



i do admit that there is a problem with the goalposts in this and many other discussions on this forum. i have not insisted on maintaining the goalposts because that leads invariably to tone silence from the other side; instead, i do respond and post statistics that show that even with the changed goalposts, that side has no data to back their contentions. this is the case with your posts. im guessing it must be frustrating to be proven wrong, change goalposts, and be proven wrong even with changed goalposts.


you do have my empathy, as it clearly must be troubling for you or anyone else for that matter.
"White supremacists" is a bogeyman if there ever was one.

The worldwide concern about the spread of Islam as an ideology has nothing to do with racism either.
 
It's interesting what's going on in Europe. Now, Austria is trying to ban political Islam from the country. What do you all make of this?

so a center-right wing Christian-democratic politician wants to ban political islam. the Austrian Peoples party has been trying to do that by the last 3 leaders. its become newsworthy because Stocker is Chancellor. whats new with that?

And again, the murders are not the same. Terrorism targets random people to create fear in the public. It poses more a threat to me than a WS killing a gang member or a targeted killing that is not random. Either way, and again, since the beginning, we've been discussing ideologically based crimes.

What you're doing is sneaky and you're trying to be smart, but you're not. Youre using ideologically based murders only for muslims but all murders for WS. A better comparison would be all murders for both WS and muslims or only ideo murders for WS and muslims. Considering that islam is way overrepresented in the US prison system, it's likely including all murders committed by muslims would throw your weak argument in the trash where it belongs.
you are being deceptive.

the number you quote specifically state that there are 84 specifically known ideological murders by white supremacists (i am giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are typing WS because you are trying to be efficient rather than being deceptive about the terms white and supremacists, but it is a consideration). i did not get the sense that it goes through the same introspection on the muslim murders - it seemed to assume that because religion was involved that it was ideological.


it is also clearly stated that it was not clear how many of the other white supremacist murders were not ideologically driven but that a significant portion could be ideologically driven.


as a side note to reduce demonization of muslims - some sources believe that 90% of muslims behind bars convert to islam while behind bars, and do not enter prison system as a muslim.


"About 90 percent of incarcerated Muslims in the United States become Muslims during their incarceration," he said. "Most of the people that are in prison tend to be repeat offenders and so at some point in time they seem to become aware that they have run the gambit and maybe it's time for a change."
90% of 9% is, um...
 
so a center-right wing Christian-democratic politician wants to ban political islam. the Austrian Peoples party has been trying to do that by the last 3 leaders. its become newsworthy because Stocker is Chancellor. whats new with that?


you are being deceptive.

the number you quote specifically state that there are 84 specifically known ideological murders by white supremacists (i am giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are typing WS because you are trying to be efficient rather than being deceptive about the terms white and supremacists, but it is a consideration). i did not get the sense that it goes through the same introspection on the muslim murders - it seemed to assume that because religion was involved that it was ideological.


it is also clearly stated that it was not clear how many of the other white supremacist murders were not ideologically driven but that a significant portion could be ideologically driven.


as a side note to reduce demonization of muslims - some sources believe that 90% of muslims behind bars convert to islam while behind bars, and do not enter prison system as a muslim.



90% of 9% is, um...

I take it you didn't read the article. What's new is that he's "pioneering legislation" to make this happen. It needs a clear legal definition and this is what they're working on. This is how these things start, but it doesn't mean they end here.

Whether or not they converted (or reverted per fitrah) before or after incarceration is irrelevant because they're still taken into account in that 1% of the US number.

Reread my posts and I write what WS means.

Again, you're using conjecture to impose your own opinion on things to fit your bias and your bias is irrelevant.

Regarding the muslim killings, these are ideo based nd well documented. Here you go:

2013 — Boston: 4 deaths. Three people were killed by the bombs at the Boston Marathon. MIT police officer Sean Collier was subsequently shot and killed by the Tsarnaev brothers during their flight from authorities, bringing the ADL-associated death count to four. ADL identifies the brothers as having been radicalized at least partly by extremist cleric Anwar al-Awlaki.

2014 — Ali Muhammad Brown: 4 deaths in three incidents. Brown killed Leroy Henderson in Skyway, Washington; Ahmed Said and Dwone Anderson-Young in Seattle; and Brendan Tevlin in New Jersey. Brown told investigators that the killings represented vengeance for U.S. actions in Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan.

2015 — Chattanooga: 5 deaths. Muhammad Youssef Abdulazeez attacked military facilities in Chattanooga, killing four Marines and a Navy sailor. Motivated by foreign terrorist organization propaganda.

2015 — San Bernardino: 14 deaths. Syed Rizwan Farook and Tashfeen Malik attacked a gathering of San Bernardino County employees, killing 14. ADL categorizes this as a domestic Islamist-extremist mass killing.

2016 — Pulse: 49 deaths. Omar Mateen murdered 49 people at the Pulse nightclub in Orlando. During the attack he pledged allegiance to ISIS and described himself as an "Islamic soldier."

2017 — Denver: 1 death. Joshua Cummings shot and killed RTD security officer Scott von Lanken. Cummings had expressed jihadist/ISIS sympathies.

2017 — NYC truck attack: 8 deaths. Sayfullo Saipov drove a rented truck onto the Hudson River bike path in Manhattan, killing eight people in an ISIS-inspired attack.

2018 — Palm Beach Gardens: 1 death. Corey Johnson stabbed 13-year-old Jovanni Sierra to death and wounded two other people. ADL says this was the only murder motivated by domestic Islamist extremism in 2018.
 
I take it you didn't read the article. What's new is that he's "pioneering legislation" to make this happen. It needs a clear legal definition and this is what they're working on. This is how these things start, but it doesn't mean they end here.

Whether or not they converted (or reverted per fitrah) before or after incarceration is irrelevant because they're still taken into account in that 1% of the US number.

Reread my posts and I write what WS means.

Again, you're using conjecture to impose your own opinion on things to fit your bias and your bias is irrelevant.

Regarding the muslim killings, these are ideo based nd well documented. Here you go:

2013 — Boston: 4 deaths. Three people were killed by the bombs at the Boston Marathon. MIT police officer Sean Collier was subsequently shot and killed by the Tsarnaev brothers during their flight from authorities, bringing the ADL-associated death count to four. ADL identifies the brothers as having been radicalized at least partly by extremist cleric Anwar al-Awlaki.

2014 — Ali Muhammad Brown: 4 deaths in three incidents. Brown killed Leroy Henderson in Skyway, Washington; Ahmed Said and Dwone Anderson-Young in Seattle; and Brendan Tevlin in New Jersey. Brown told investigators that the killings represented vengeance for U.S. actions in Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan.

2015 — Chattanooga: 5 deaths. Muhammad Youssef Abdulazeez attacked military facilities in Chattanooga, killing four Marines and a Navy sailor. Motivated by foreign terrorist organization propaganda.

2015 — San Bernardino: 14 deaths. Syed Rizwan Farook and Tashfeen Malik attacked a gathering of San Bernardino County employees, killing 14. ADL categorizes this as a domestic Islamist-extremist mass killing.

2016 — Pulse: 49 deaths. Omar Mateen murdered 49 people at the Pulse nightclub in Orlando. During the attack he pledged allegiance to ISIS and described himself as an "Islamic soldier."

2017 — Denver: 1 death. Joshua Cummings shot and killed RTD security officer Scott von Lanken. Cummings had expressed jihadist/ISIS sympathies.

2017 — NYC truck attack: 8 deaths. Sayfullo Saipov drove a rented truck onto the Hudson River bike path in Manhattan, killing eight people in an ISIS-inspired attack.

2018 — Palm Beach Gardens: 1 death. Corey Johnson stabbed 13-year-old Jovanni Sierra to death and wounded two other people. ADL says this was the only murder motivated by domestic Islamist extremism in 2018.
Why stop in 2018
 
Quit being silly and knock it off with your nonsense. You're not witty nor clever.

This conversation started because the other guy wanted to know why white christians had concerns about the increase in the muslim population and respective power, so I responded to him. He asked an honest question and I assumed he wanted an honest answer. Now, however, I think he played a trick on all of us. He really just wanted to defend his argument.

If 1% of the population is already responsible for the majority of ideologically motivated murders, what happens as that population increases? Do ideological murders increase proportionally? I don't know if it will or will not but that's one of the concerns that people have.

The data supports exactly what I'm saying. Again, not only is the data that I used, but it's the data that he himself posted. He just took the same road that you often do, he foolishly googled something and posted it without reading it beforehand
again you say 1 percent of the population and you are assuming that all murders are from domestic folks.
 
And again, the murders are not the same. Terrorism targets random people to create fear in the public. It poses more a threat to me than a WS killing a gang member or a targeted killing that is not random. Either way, and again, since the beginning, we've been discussing ideologically based crimes.

What you're doing is sneaky and you're trying to be smart, but you're not. Youre using ideologically based murders only for muslims but all murders for WS. A better comparison would be all murders for both WS and muslims or only ideo murders for WS and muslims. Considering that islam is way overrepresented in the US prison system, it's likely including all murders committed by muslims would throw your weak argument in the trash where it belongs.
All terrorism is ideological.

You dont get that.
 
"White supremacists" is a bogeyman if there ever was one.

The worldwide concern about the spread of Islam as an ideology has nothing to do with racism either.
Why is white supremacy a bogeyman? Please explain.

Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world.
 
No you are just pro-erroneous statistics about muslims.

again you say 1 percent of the population and you are assuming that all murders are from domestic folks.

All terrorism is ideological.

You dont get that.
Why are you coming across as so weak and unintelligent? Why don't you read the report before spouting off about it? Do you not think that would be a more intelligent approach?

#1. I thought you were a Christian. Why are you bearing false witness against me? Go read your bible, specifically Exodus 20:16, Deuteronomy 19:16–19, and Proverbs 6:16–19.5.

Then come back and name one statistic I listed that wasn't true. Keep in mind God is watching, and remember, the data we're using is the exact data that budda/baba posted. I don't remember which guy, sorry.

#2. I already told you I don't care what you call it. I care about behavior. Ideo murder includes terrorism and everything else. Label it how you wish and don't play that game with me.

#3. I didn't say they were referring to domestic folks. That's what the REPORT is saying, and again, I'm using the same report that baba/budda used. I even went ahead and listed the murders for you above to dumb it down, but apparently it still wasn't enough. The entire report is based on DOMESTIC murders and is looking over a particular time period only, and this time period is after 9/11, which is what I'm assuming you're loosely trying to tie in somehow. So, 9/11 is not included. If it were, the 3000 murdered would really skew the results.

"Domestic Islamist extremists have been responsible for 87 murders over the past 10 years,"
"Murders can be committed by right-wing extremists such as white supremacists or sovereign citizens, by left-wing extremists such as Black nationalists or anarchists, by domestic Islamist extremists or by people associated with other, more obscure causes or groups. All types are included here."


So, that's strike 1, 2, and 3.
 
Here's an interesting case in the San Diego mosque shooting to confuse up the stats further.

Manifesto contains WS and nazi references but 2/3 involved so far were hispanic. WS murders have been perpetrated against hispanics and at the same time hispanics have perpetrated white supremacists murders. The biggest case probably being Garcia in texas where he murdered of 8 people although I guess there's some uncertainty of the motive. In the same state, a white WS killed 23 hispanics. It's its own ideology.


Either way, it shows that with ideo murders there's typically some type of manifesto, live stream, messaging, etc. Some type of propaganda to get their views out there.
 
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Why are you coming across as so weak and unintelligent? Why don't you read the report before spouting off about it? Do you not think that would be a more intelligent approach?

#1. I thought you were a Christian. Why are you bearing false witness against me? Go read your bible, specifically Exodus 20:16, Deuteronomy 19:16–19, and Proverbs 6:16–19.5.

Then come back and name one statistic I listed that wasn't true. Keep in mind God is watching, and remember, the data we're using is the exact data that budda/baba posted. I don't remember which guy, sorry.

#2. I already told you I don't care what you call it. I care about behavior. Ideo murder includes terrorism and everything else. Label it how you wish and don't play that game with me.

#3. I didn't say they were referring to domestic folks. That's what the REPORT is saying, and again, I'm using the same report that baba/budda used. I even went ahead and listed the murders for you above to dumb it down, but apparently it still wasn't enough. The entire report is based on DOMESTIC murders and is looking over a particular time period only, and this time period is after 9/11, which is what I'm assuming you're loosely trying to tie in somehow. So, 9/11 is not included. If it were, the 3000 murdered would really skew the results.

"Domestic Islamist extremists have been responsible for 87 murders over the past 10 years,"
"Murders can be committed by right-wing extremists such as white supremacists or sovereign citizens, by left-wing extremists such as Black nationalists or anarchists, by domestic Islamist extremists or by people associated with other, more obscure causes or groups. All types are included here."


So, that's strike 1, 2, and 3.
There are many statistics and statements in your very long and numerous posts that are erroneous. I am not interested in quoting them all. Here are a few.

murders by WS based on ideological reasons have been exceedingly low over the past few decades

If 1% of the population is already responsible for the majority of ideologically motivated murders, what happens as that population increases


It is rare to see someone hurl insults in one paragraph and then quote the Bible in next. You do you man but anyone who does that is not someone that I am going to take seriously. I am not sure why someone simply challenging your responses makes you so angry but that is a you/self problem and you would benefit spending more time focusing on that and dissecting it.

I will help you start. Look at Matthew 22:37-39. Jesus explains that loving your neighbor as yourself is the second greatest commandment, right after loving God. If your responses start with this in mind you are going to be headed in the right direction. Know that none of us are perfect and we all fall short of God's grace but we can all try to do better. I am rooting for you.
 
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There are many statistics and statements in your very long and numerous posts that are erroneous. I am not interested in quoting them all. Here are a few.

murders by WS based on ideological reasons have been exceedingly low over the past few decades

If 1% of the population is already responsible for the majority of ideologically motivated murders, what happens as that population increases


It is rare to see someone hurl insults in one paragraph and then quote the Bible in next. You do you man but anyone who does that is not someone that I am going to take seriously. I am not sure why someone simply challenging your responses makes you so angry but that is a you/self problem and you would benefit spending more time focusing on that and dissecting it.

I will help you start. Look at Matthew 22:37-39. Jesus explains that loving your neighbor as yourself is the second greatest commandment, right after loving God. If your responses start with this in mind you are going to be headed in the right direction. Know that none of us are perfect and we all fall short of God's grace but we can all try to do better. I am rooting for you.
I'm not angry at all. I'm just trying to have a conversation while mixing some humor into it. Why would you take anything I say as angry? And I promise it'd take a lot more for me to get worked up than some random homies on the internet.

Both of those statements are true and I've already documented and cited the data multiple times. You are again making false accusations, so tell me how those are wrong. I've already supported both statements with data. God is not going to be very happy with you.

WS murders are exceedingly low because all murders are exceedingly low. I've already mentioned there is really no need to fear being murdered by anyone or any group, and especially being murdered by someone you don't know. As crazy as it sounds, if you try to get murdered, you wouldn't be able to do it. That's how difficult it is. The chance for anyone in the US of being murdered is probably hovering around 0.0001%, and probably less by someone that you don't know. School shootings, terrorism, drive-bys, lynchings, etc. --> very unlikely to happen to you. It's very important to keep things in perspective so people try to make rational decisions.
 
Let's see, WS committed 87 ideo (or whatever the number was) murders over 10 years. Average 8.7 per year. We round up to 9 for you.

9 murders per year in a country of 300,000,000 plus people.

Yes, that is exceedingly low. There are more important things to waste your time on.
 
One quick response. Stocker's push is not new. He presented legislation because he now has the power to do so. It does not change the years long push.
It can change things because he's in power as you said. Same thing with miller saying something vs Trump. Big difference since one has the ability to implement the changes that they want. It's pretty serious. What does political Islam even mean? I have no idea, but now they're going to define it.

Whatever it ends up being, it will probably result in limiting a Muslim's ability to practice his faith in the way he chooses and a push for conformity, which isn't typically easily forced on someone with strong religious convictions.

Do you really not see this as a big deal? Probably because you're not a Muslim living in Europe. Any of the Muslim peeps in here want to give an opinion?
 
I'm not angry at all. I'm just trying to have a conversation while mixing some humor into it. Why would you take anything I say as angry? And I promise it'd take a lot more for me to get worked up than some random homies on the internet.

Both of those statements are true and I've already documented and cited the data multiple times. You are again making false accusations, so tell me how those are wrong. I've already supported both statements with data. God is not going to be very happy with you.

WS murders are exceedingly low because all murders are exceedingly low. I've already mentioned there is really no need to fear being murdered by anyone or any group, and especially being murdered by someone you don't know. As crazy as it sounds, if you try to get murdered, you wouldn't be able to do it. That's how difficult it is. The chance for anyone in the US of being murdered is probably hovering around 0.0001%, and probably less by someone that you don't know. School shootings, terrorism, drive-bys, lynchings, etc. --> very unlikely to happen to you. It's very important to keep things in perspective so people try to make rational decisions.


Ok, using your own words, my question to you then is if homicide by terrorist is as you say an infinitesimal probability (you quoted 0.0001%) why are you taking the time to point out that the majority are Muslims who are 1 percent of the population?

Why would it even matter? Wouldn't that be the definition of stoking fears over an unimportant topic? Dont we have more pressing things?
 
Ok, using your own words, my question to you then is if homicide by terrorist is as you say an infinitesimal probability (you quoted 0.0001%) why are you taking the time to point out that the majority are Muslims who are 1 percent of the population?

Why would it even matter? Wouldn't that be the definition of stoking fears over an unimportant topic? Dont we have more pressing things?
because the other guy asked a question on why white Christians were concerned about muslims. I listed several of the reasons why.
 
Ok, using your own words, my question to you then is if homicide by terrorist is as you say an infinitesimal probability (you quoted 0.0001%) why are you taking the time to point out that the majority are Muslims who are 1 percent of the population?

Why would it even matter? Wouldn't that be the definition of stoking fears over an unimportant topic? Dont we have more pressing things?
i didn't quote that 0.0001%, just a number I made up to illustrate my point but it's probably not too far off.
 
i didn't quote that 0.0001%, just a number I made up to illustrate my point but it's probably not too far off.
This is what you said and now you are saying you made it up. Either way I still ask why any of your argument is even relevant to anything. The answer is that it is not.


The chance for anyone in the US of being murdered is probably hovering around 0.0001%, and probably less by someone that you don't know.
 
This is what you said and now you are saying you made it up. Either way I still ask why any of your argument is even relevant to anything. The answer is that it is not.


The chance for anyone in the US of being murdered is probably hovering around 0.0001%, and probably less by someone that you don't know.
C'mon, take another approach and quit being ridiculous

.....PROBABLY hovering around 0.0001%,
probably means I'm guessing and I didn't quote it from something
My point is that the murder rate is very low, I don't know the exact number but the chances of someone being murdered is very unlikely in the US, especially from someone you don't know

Here, from chatgpt. Are you happy now? See, I wasn't too far off

----

So that's approximately a 0.0005% chance per year of being murdered by a stranger.


Put another way: about a 99.9995% chance per year that you will NOT be murdered by a stranger,
 
C'mon, take another approach and quit being ridiculous

.....PROBABLY hovering around 0.0001%,
probably means I'm guessing and I didn't quote it from something
My point is that the murder rate is very low, I don't know the exact number but the chances of someone being murdered is very unlikely in the US, especially from someone you don't know

Here, from chatgpt. Are you happy now? See, I wasn't too far off

----

So that's approximately a 0.0005% chance per year of being murdered by a stranger.


Put another way: about a 99.9995% chance per year that you will NOT be murdered by a stranger,
No I am not happy discussing this anymore because at whatever infinitesimal number you use it is insignificant....but feel free to continue as a soliloquy if you wish.
 
It can change things because he's in power as you said. Same thing with miller saying something vs Trump. Big difference since one has the ability to implement the changes that they want. It's pretty serious. What does political Islam even mean? I have no idea, but now they're going to define it.

Whatever it ends up being, it will probably result in limiting a Muslim's ability to practice his faith in the way he chooses and a push for conformity, which isn't typically easily forced on someone with strong religious convictions.

Do you really not see this as a big deal? Probably because you're not a Muslim living in Europe. Any of the Muslim peeps in here want to give an opinion?
im not sure what the situation is in Europe, but in the US, there is the concept of religious freedom.

imagine if someone in the US decided that political christianity should be eliminated.

apparently there are discussions on what political islam is. his coalition partners may have not signed on.

fwi, the prior leaders of the party that wanted this ban included Sebastian Kurz and Karl Nehammer, from as far back as 2017.
because the other guy asked a question on why white Christians were concerned about muslims. I listed several of the reasons why.
then white christians - by numbers alone - should be more concerned about other white supremacists, because statistically they will be harmed by them by 3 fold.

the argument regarding ideological attacks by muslims also falls by the wayside because the 244 white supremacist attacks includes attacks that are not just ideological (against other religions) but against also attacks against other branches of christianity.
 
C'mon, take another approach and quit being ridiculous

.....PROBABLY hovering around 0.0001%,
probably means I'm guessing and I didn't quote it from something
My point is that the murder rate is very low, I don't know the exact number but the chances of someone being murdered is very unlikely in the US, especially from someone you don't know

Here, from chatgpt. Are you happy now? See, I wasn't too far off

----

So that's approximately a 0.0005% chance per year of being murdered by a stranger.


Put another way: about a 99.9995% chance per year that you will NOT be murdered by a stranger,
so we shouldnt worry.


oh thats right, the party of thoughts and prayers.



just for comparison, the 9/11 murders. those deaths represented only 9.9 E-6 (or 0.0000009) of the US population at the time.


should we also say the same thing to israelis after Oct 7?

after all, that was only 0.01% of the population of israel...


thoughts and prayers.

or - any murder is unacceptable.
 
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Socialism Is Here—and It’s Serious
As religion recedes, politics takes its place. As confidence fades, political movements grow radical.

Peggy Noonan
By
Peggy Noonan
Aug. 6, 2026 7:02 pm ET

Socialism is not a passing thing but an arriving thing. It must be taken seriously as a factor in our politics and the Democratic Party. A CNN/SSRS poll issued this week reported 34% of Democrats and Democratic-leaning adults identify as “democratic socialists.” That number won’t be depressed by the success of Abdul El-Sayed, who won the Democratic nomination for the U.S. Senate in Michigan on Tuesday by racking up huge margins in progressive enclaves and university towns.

Socialism’s opponents imagine there is safety in its poor track record, which is obvious to everyone. No it isn’t. Many of its proponents wouldn’t know the history and many wouldn’t care: Our version will be better.

Here is some of what that version involves, from an interview two weeks ago by Shannon Bream of “Fox News Sunday” with Megan Romer, national co-chairman of the Democratic Socialists of America. Normally socialists are evasive or euphemistic regarding their policy goals. Ms. Romer wasn’t.

Bream: “Just give me sort of a true or false on these. Abolish the Senate?”

Romer: “True.”

Bream: “Replace the presidency and Supreme Court as we now know them?”

Romer: “Yep.”

Bream: “Abolish ICE?”

Romer: “Absolutely.”

Bream: “Abolish borders and give amnesty to anyone currently in the United States illegally?”

Romer: “As a long-term plan, yep.”

Bream: “Defund the Pentagon?”

Romer: “Absolutely.”

Bream: “Abolish prisons, at least in large part?”

Romer: “Yeah—again as part of a long-term program, yeah.”

Bream: “Government or public ownership of most large corporations?”

Romer: “Yeah, absolutely.”

Socialism’s most enthusiastic promoters are quick and clever—comparatively well-educated, very online. Their talent lies primarily in media, having been immersed in it from birth—the internet, its apps, its entertainment and information flow. They know all about how people get and absorb a feeling, an impression; they know how to produce a sensation, as opposed to a thought. One of the great tricks in life is to have a talent suited to your times, and they do.

I am sorry to say they never strike me with their warmth, as, say, your great-uncle Billy was warm when he spoke about the Industrial Workers of the World. Today’s socialists strike me as colder, less human, fiercer and occasionally sociopathic. In general, they appear to have an idea of history rather than attachments to existing people and institutions. Most strike me not as people who love America and wish to make it better, but people ready to exploit its freedoms to build a movement that if successful would transform America’s fundamental nature. It will no longer be the freedom place but something else, and more common.

This isn’t happening in our politics only because people “hate the status quo” and “want change.” Americans always hate the status quo and want change. I believe what we’re seeing traces back to these factors:

A voter who is 25 was in grade school during the 2008 economic crash, and saw everything—frightened parents, lost jobs. In the years after, he saw bailouts and no one on Wall Street paying a price. It lessened his allegiance to the free-market economic system.

A voter who is 25 also sees AI rising, and wonders if the economy as it exists today has a place for him. Will he be able to afford a house someday? Widespread home ownership brings a feeling of investment, of stability and satisfaction. What does its absence bring?

The Cold War has receded as a living memory. The enforced communism and socialism of the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact was a disaster—shortages, drabness, economic lifelessness. Censorship, secret police, all the bad things big unaccountable governments bring. That was long ago. “Socialism” now is a dream of Scandinavia—national healthcare, generous benefits, equal enjoyment of resources.

As religion recedes, politics takes its place. The young have been educated within a general framework of assumptions and language of the left—structures of power, oppressor groups, critical theory, intersectionality.

When confidence in Congress, the media, the university, churches and courts declines, as it has, reform movements grow more radical, in part because they no longer assume existing institutions can be repaired. They no longer think those institutions can check them.

And of course social media rewards ideological intensity on left and right. If radical views get you a following, why not? Online inducements aren’t toward moderation.

It’s our view here that free-market capitalism is organic and flows upward from the human person—man wants to build, trade, invent, provide for and rise, and he erects laws and a way of economic being that allows the realization of those desires. Economic freedom works with human nature. The rules and regulations it produces, the economic framework it creates, are like what Churchill said of democracy: the worst system except for all the others. Socialism is a more abstract and ideological vision of justice that doesn’t flow up but must be imposed from the top down. It isn’t based on the natural, or on man as he is; it’s a construct that involves coercion.

Capitalism can be brutal, unjust in its own ways, and it can produce painful outcomes. Thus the modern welfare state, erected more or less over the past century, to save those who might fall too far, to stop their descent, to see if it can be reversed. This mixed economy is a mess—imperfect and costly, always in need of reform, always capable of being made better and, in terms of history, maybe as good as it gets.

No economic system can eliminate suffering, or injustice, which the socialists if they win will find out.

I’ve been reading André Malraux this summer. He was a brilliant, compelling and tricky fellow, a novelist and political philosopher who disentangled himself from early communism and became culture minister to Charles de Gaulle in the 1960s. In the biography “Malraux: A Life,” by the journalist Olivier Todd, Malraux criticizes the economic thinking of the Left as “excessively precise”—this class is abused in this way and will triumph when this thing is done.

At a Gaullist campaign rally in 1968, Malraux put his finger on a weakness of conservative economic thought. “ ‘Capitalism’ does not carry us in its heart,” he said. By inference, it’s also hard to carry capitalism in your heart. It isn’t a great belief, only an economic system. Socialism is a belief, and it summons feeling. Capitalism is a thing of reason, a disadvantage in an age of sensation.

In a fiery speech against de Gaulle’s leftist critics during the latter’s final presidential campaign, Malraux accused them of not being constructive but destructive. He calls the Socialist Francois Mitterand “a man who has never liberated anything,” as de Gaulle had, and has “dreamed up the left.” What does Mitterand symbolize? “A combination of touching aspiration and predictable demagogy implicit in an attitude of eternal intention.”

That kind of passion from the pulpit will have a place in the coming debate. Our current socialists have never created or “liberated” anything. They are dreaming it up as they go along—ban prisons, ban prisoners, ban crime. And yes, they live in an attitude of eternal intention. So far they’ve never proved a thing—except that they can win elections. And thus carry the future. Which is rather a lot.

Copyright ©2026 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved. 87990cbe856818d5eddac44c7b1cdeb8
Appeared in the August 8, 2026, print edition as 'Socialism Is Here—and It’s Serious'.

Peggy Noonan is an opinion columnist at the Wall Street Journal where her column, "Declarations," has run since 2000.

She was awarded the Pulitzer Prize for Commentary in 2017. A political analyst for NBC News, she is the author of nine books on American politics, history and culture, from her most recent, “The Time of Our Lives,” to her first, “What I Saw at the Revolution.” She is one of ten historians and writers who contributed essays on the American presidency for the book, “Character Above All.” Noonan was a special assistant and speechwriter for President Ronald Reagan. In 2010 she was given the Award for Media Excellence by the living recipients of the Congressional Medal of Honor; the following year she was chosen as Columnist of the Year by The Week. She has been a fellow at Harvard University’s Institute of Politics, and has taught in the history department at Yale University.

Before entering the Reagan White House, Noonan was a producer and writer at CBS News in New York, and an adjunct professor of Journalism at New York University. She was born in Brooklyn, New York and grew up there, in Massapequa Park, Long Island, and in Rutherford, New Jersey. She is a graduate of Fairleigh Dickinson University in Rutherford. She lives in New York City. In November, 2016 she was named one of the city's Literary Lions by the New York Public Library.
 
Socialism Is Here—and It’s Serious
As religion recedes, politics takes its place. As confidence fades, political movements grow radical.

Peggy Noonan
By
Peggy Noonan
Aug. 6, 2026 7:02 pm ET

Socialism is not a passing thing but an arriving thing. It must be taken seriously as a factor in our politics and the Democratic Party. A CNN/SSRS poll issued this week reported 34% of Democrats and Democratic-leaning adults identify as “democratic socialists.” That number won’t be depressed by the success of Abdul El-Sayed, who won the Democratic nomination for the U.S. Senate in Michigan on Tuesday by racking up huge margins in progressive enclaves and university towns.

Socialism’s opponents imagine there is safety in its poor track record, which is obvious to everyone. No it isn’t. Many of its proponents wouldn’t know the history and many wouldn’t care: Our version will be better.

Here is some of what that version involves, from an interview two weeks ago by Shannon Bream of “Fox News Sunday” with Megan Romer, national co-chairman of the Democratic Socialists of America. Normally socialists are evasive or euphemistic regarding their policy goals. Ms. Romer wasn’t.

Bream: “Just give me sort of a true or false on these. Abolish the Senate?”

Romer: “True.”

Bream: “Replace the presidency and Supreme Court as we now know them?”

Romer: “Yep.”

Bream: “Abolish ICE?”

Romer: “Absolutely.”

Bream: “Abolish borders and give amnesty to anyone currently in the United States illegally?”

Romer: “As a long-term plan, yep.”

Bream: “Defund the Pentagon?”

Romer: “Absolutely.”

Bream: “Abolish prisons, at least in large part?”

Romer: “Yeah—again as part of a long-term program, yeah.”

Bream: “Government or public ownership of most large corporations?”

Romer: “Yeah, absolutely.”

Socialism’s most enthusiastic promoters are quick and clever—comparatively well-educated, very online. Their talent lies primarily in media, having been immersed in it from birth—the internet, its apps, its entertainment and information flow. They know all about how people get and absorb a feeling, an impression; they know how to produce a sensation, as opposed to a thought. One of the great tricks in life is to have a talent suited to your times, and they do.

I am sorry to say they never strike me with their warmth, as, say, your great-uncle Billy was warm when he spoke about the Industrial Workers of the World. Today’s socialists strike me as colder, less human, fiercer and occasionally sociopathic. In general, they appear to have an idea of history rather than attachments to existing people and institutions. Most strike me not as people who love America and wish to make it better, but people ready to exploit its freedoms to build a movement that if successful would transform America’s fundamental nature. It will no longer be the freedom place but something else, and more common.

This isn’t happening in our politics only because people “hate the status quo” and “want change.” Americans always hate the status quo and want change. I believe what we’re seeing traces back to these factors:

A voter who is 25 was in grade school during the 2008 economic crash, and saw everything—frightened parents, lost jobs. In the years after, he saw bailouts and no one on Wall Street paying a price. It lessened his allegiance to the free-market economic system.

A voter who is 25 also sees AI rising, and wonders if the economy as it exists today has a place for him. Will he be able to afford a house someday? Widespread home ownership brings a feeling of investment, of stability and satisfaction. What does its absence bring?

The Cold War has receded as a living memory. The enforced communism and socialism of the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact was a disaster—shortages, drabness, economic lifelessness. Censorship, secret police, all the bad things big unaccountable governments bring. That was long ago. “Socialism” now is a dream of Scandinavia—national healthcare, generous benefits, equal enjoyment of resources.

As religion recedes, politics takes its place. The young have been educated within a general framework of assumptions and language of the left—structures of power, oppressor groups, critical theory, intersectionality.

When confidence in Congress, the media, the university, churches and courts declines, as it has, reform movements grow more radical, in part because they no longer assume existing institutions can be repaired. They no longer think those institutions can check them.

And of course social media rewards ideological intensity on left and right. If radical views get you a following, why not? Online inducements aren’t toward moderation.

It’s our view here that free-market capitalism is organic and flows upward from the human person—man wants to build, trade, invent, provide for and rise, and he erects laws and a way of economic being that allows the realization of those desires. Economic freedom works with human nature. The rules and regulations it produces, the economic framework it creates, are like what Churchill said of democracy: the worst system except for all the others. Socialism is a more abstract and ideological vision of justice that doesn’t flow up but must be imposed from the top down. It isn’t based on the natural, or on man as he is; it’s a construct that involves coercion.

Capitalism can be brutal, unjust in its own ways, and it can produce painful outcomes. Thus the modern welfare state, erected more or less over the past century, to save those who might fall too far, to stop their descent, to see if it can be reversed. This mixed economy is a mess—imperfect and costly, always in need of reform, always capable of being made better and, in terms of history, maybe as good as it gets.

No economic system can eliminate suffering, or injustice, which the socialists if they win will find out.

I’ve been reading André Malraux this summer. He was a brilliant, compelling and tricky fellow, a novelist and political philosopher who disentangled himself from early communism and became culture minister to Charles de Gaulle in the 1960s. In the biography “Malraux: A Life,” by the journalist Olivier Todd, Malraux criticizes the economic thinking of the Left as “excessively precise”—this class is abused in this way and will triumph when this thing is done.

At a Gaullist campaign rally in 1968, Malraux put his finger on a weakness of conservative economic thought. “ ‘Capitalism’ does not carry us in its heart,” he said. By inference, it’s also hard to carry capitalism in your heart. It isn’t a great belief, only an economic system. Socialism is a belief, and it summons feeling. Capitalism is a thing of reason, a disadvantage in an age of sensation.

In a fiery speech against de Gaulle’s leftist critics during the latter’s final presidential campaign, Malraux accused them of not being constructive but destructive. He calls the Socialist Francois Mitterand “a man who has never liberated anything,” as de Gaulle had, and has “dreamed up the left.” What does Mitterand symbolize? “A combination of touching aspiration and predictable demagogy implicit in an attitude of eternal intention.”

That kind of passion from the pulpit will have a place in the coming debate. Our current socialists have never created or “liberated” anything. They are dreaming it up as they go along—ban prisons, ban prisoners, ban crime. And yes, they live in an attitude of eternal intention. So far they’ve never proved a thing—except that they can win elections. And thus carry the future. Which is rather a lot.

Copyright ©2026 Dow Jones & Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved. 87990cbe856818d5eddac44c7b1cdeb8
Appeared in the August 8, 2026, print edition as 'Socialism Is Here—and It’s Serious'.

Peggy Noonan is an opinion columnist at the Wall Street Journal where her column, "Declarations," has run since 2000.

She was awarded the Pulitzer Prize for Commentary in 2017. A political analyst for NBC News, she is the author of nine books on American politics, history and culture, from her most recent, “The Time of Our Lives,” to her first, “What I Saw at the Revolution.” She is one of ten historians and writers who contributed essays on the American presidency for the book, “Character Above All.” Noonan was a special assistant and speechwriter for President Ronald Reagan. In 2010 she was given the Award for Media Excellence by the living recipients of the Congressional Medal of Honor; the following year she was chosen as Columnist of the Year by The Week. She has been a fellow at Harvard University’s Institute of Politics, and has taught in the history department at Yale University.


Before entering the Reagan White House, Noonan was a producer and writer at CBS News in New York, and an adjunct professor of Journalism at New York University. She was born in Brooklyn, New York and grew up there, in Massapequa Park, Long Island, and in Rutherford, New Jersey. She is a graduate of Fairleigh Dickinson University in Rutherford. She lives in New York City. In November, 2016 she was named one of the city's Literary Lions by the New York Public Library.
You even have a so called Republican president using the government to buy stakes in private enterprise. This is a textbook definition of socialism but MAGA excuses it because its Trump.
 
Stop trying to say "Gotcha!".

No one is buying that Trump is a socialist. Give it a rest.

Actions speak louder than words and those are socialist actions, plain and simple.

Calm down man. You don't owe the guy anything and he could give a *&/* about you.
 
nope. nice try. heres why.

if you want to go all the way back, the last moderate republican was ford. he was replaced by a moderate democrat Carter.

the republicans then rolled out a hard right republican by the name of Reagan then HW Bush, continuing Reagan policies. this election was the key turning point.

bush (and reagan) were replaced by liberal Clinton.

the country took a turn back to the right with GW Bush (renowned for hard right Cheney as VP in charge).

the country reversed itself with Obama, who was considered liberal but had many centrist policies.

of course then came trump 1.0, a much stronger shift to the right. yes, the perception of clinton as being a radical liberal had an effect (but mostly comey).

biden is considered by the right to be liberal but considered by liberals to be centrist and not liberal enough. he was definitely more centrist than trump, which is why he won and yes, he won in 2020.

then trump 2.0, who is project 2025 and significant far right.


thats why you see the current shift to more liberal politics.
 
nope. nice try. heres why.

if you want to go all the way back, the last moderate republican was ford. he was replaced by a moderate democrat Carter.

the republicans then rolled out a hard right republican by the name of Reagan then HW Bush, continuing Reagan policies. this election was the key turning point.

bush (and reagan) were replaced by liberal Clinton.

the country took a turn back to the right with GW Bush (renowned for hard right Cheney as VP in charge).

the country reversed itself with Obama, who was considered liberal but had many centrist policies.

of course then came trump 1.0, a much stronger shift to the right. yes, the perception of clinton as being a radical liberal had an effect (but mostly comey).

biden is considered by the right to be liberal but considered by liberals to be centrist and not liberal enough. he was definitely more centrist than trump, which is why he won and yes, he won in 2020.

then trump 2.0, who is project 2025 and significant far right.


thats why you see the current shift to more liberal politics.


all correct.....this is why the DSA is popping up
 
nope. nice try. heres why.

if you want to go all the way back, the last moderate republican was ford. he was replaced by a moderate democrat Carter.

the republicans then rolled out a hard right republican by the name of Reagan then HW Bush, continuing Reagan policies. this election was the key turning point.

bush (and reagan) were replaced by liberal Clinton.

the country took a turn back to the right with GW Bush (renowned for hard right Cheney as VP in charge).

the country reversed itself with Obama, who was considered liberal but had many centrist policies.

of course then came trump 1.0, a much stronger shift to the right. yes, the perception of clinton as being a radical liberal had an effect (but mostly comey).

biden is considered by the right to be liberal but considered by liberals to be centrist and not liberal enough. he was definitely more centrist than trump, which is why he won and yes, he won in 2020.

then trump 2.0, who is project 2025 and significant far right.


thats why you see the current shift to more liberal politics.
 
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Do you think we should get rid of Medicare, social security, and public education?
1788620621777.png

This is why we shouldn’t be trying to blame political parties for healthcare spending. Obamacare has been the bogeyman since introduced, but look at the change in rate of rise. It’s a tiny bump on the overall trend, about the same magnitude as the slope change at the start of Bush’s term. (By the way, the Prospective Payment System was introduced under Reagan, and the site of service differential under HW Bush)

Overall it’s been a pretty smooth exponential growth curve regardless of political party in power.
 
View attachment 424233
This is why we shouldn’t be trying to blame political parties for healthcare spending. Obamacare has been the bogeyman since introduced, but look at the change in rate of rise. It’s a tiny bump on the overall trend, about the same magnitude as the slope change at the start of Bush’s term. (By the way, the Prospective Payment System was introduced under Reagan, and the site of service differential under HW Bush)

Overall it’s been a pretty smooth exponential growth curve regardless of political party in power.
Interestingly I've seen similar graphs that show the exact opposite; a marked increase in trajectory following Obamacare
 
Do you think we should get rid of Medicare, social security, and public education?
I wouldn't immediately eliminate those programs but the concept shouldn't be unthinkable.

We should build into these and all other federal programs a mechanism where, if they are unsustainable on their own, we recognize it, and their mission is deferred to the states.

Untouchable, political third rail status is what makes these programs so fat.