Soliciting advice on 4th year radonc electives

[Ursus Martimus]

Hello again-

I'm back for more punishment following the less than lukewarm reception of endovascular brachytherapy. I recently was told that Memorial Sloan Kettering is not offering rotations in radonc or brachy during july, august, or sept, at least not to me. I was going to follow up with a month of path at sloan, but not if I don't do radonc there. Any other suggestions for the best bang for the buck on one last externship (going to Mayo and then UChicago) as far as letters of rec, foot in the door, exposure, and student friendly places. I have no preferences. Cleveland Clinic looked good, Stanford?, UPenn?, UCLA?......help. Any ideas of a elective that would be good to follow up with at the same institution?

Thanks again-

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[stephew]

Hello again-

I'm back for more punishment following the less than lukewarm reception of endovascular brachytherapy. I recently was told that Memorial Sloan Kettering is not offering rotations in radonc or brachy during july, august, or sept, at least not to me. I was going to follow up with a month of path at sloan, but not if I don't do radonc there. Any other suggestions for the best bang for the buck on one last externship (going to Mayo and then UChicago) as far as letters of rec, foot in the door, exposure, and student friendly places. I have no preferences. Cleveland Clinic looked good, Stanford?, UPenn?, UCLA?......help. Any ideas of a elective that would be good to follow up with at the same institution?

Thanks again-

Sorry didnt mean for it to sound personal at all!
Well it helps if you can say something about what locales are good for you. But if you truely have no preference, Id suggest go for teh big guns if you think you would do well. Stanford, U Mich, Harvard, UCSF, Princess Margaret, MDA, Wash U (If you've got a thick skin).

 

[Gfunk6]

Hey Ursus,

I got the impression from your post that MSK is not offering externships during those months but would presumably let Cornell med students rotate as normal. If so, I hope this is not a coming trend for RadOnc programs. With the increasing competition in the field and an undoubtedly growing applicant pool, it would really suck if programs started to deny externships between July-Sept. RadOnc is a small field and externships are vital to prove yourself to the institution of your choice.

 

[Ursus Martimus]

I appreciate the suggestions. And as far as the Sloan thing, I suppose it is their perogative and don't blame them as students at any institution get first crack. The odd lack of overlap provides little flexability in filling the last spot with any other program but WashU, mandating some extra collagen production on my part. Could you elaborate slightly on why you might need some thick skin?

I am also checking out the Joint Program but Harward wants a 6 month heads up, 2 months which has been burned with the turn around time on my Sloan ap. I took mention of Princess Margaret, which I have never heard of before. Toronto is a beautiful city. How would one go about matching in a Canadian program, eh? and are they recognized back in the US?

 

[stephew]

I appreciate the suggestions. And as far as the Sloan thing, I suppose it is their perogative and don't blame them as students at any institution get first crack. The odd lack of overlap provides little flexability in filling the last spot with any other program but WashU, mandating some extra collagen production on my part. Could you elaborate slightly on why you might need some thick skin?

I am also checking out the Joint Program but Harward wants a 6 month heads up, 2 months which has been burned with the turn around time on my Sloan ap. I took mention of Princess Margaret, which I have never heard of before. Toronto is a beautiful city. How would one go about matching in a Canadian program, eh? and are they recognized back in the US?

Princess Margaret is one of the best programs in the world. And actually should be on the Best of thread. I dont know the specifics of outside rotations in canada but I will say upfront its up to you do look into the details, since they are LCME schools i think you wouldnt have a problem.

 

[stephew]

RadOnc is a small field and externships are vital to prove yourself to the institution of your choice.

Extenships are an excellent thing to do but not vital in all cases. Certainly not if youre coming from a major center. But otherwise yes highly recomemended.

 

[Thaiger75]

Sorry didnt mean for it to sound personal at all!
Well it helps if you can say something about what locales are good for you. But if you truely have no preference, Id suggest go for teh big guns if you think you would do well. Stanford, U Mich, Harvard, UCSF, Princess Margaret, MDA, Wash U (If you've got a thick skin).

Just a note about MDA (and any other big gun program I'm sure)...they get tons of outside students who rotate every year. From what I hear, among the 20 or so students who rotated one year, only 5 got interviews. Which means that doing an externship might help your chances, but by no means guarantees an interview (which is understandable...they can't grant interviews to all these students).

 

[Gfunk6]

From what I hear, among the 20 or so students who rotated one year, only 5 got interviews.

That's really very interesting. I just assumed that courtesy interviews were given to all externs. I guess it's just representative of how competitive things have become.

 

[Thaiger75]

That's really very interesting. I just assumed that courtesy interviews were given to all externs. I guess it's just representative of how competitive things have become.

That's what I had thought too, but giving interviews to all 20 students (which would be nearly 2/3 of their interview pool) would just not be possible if they were looking for the best candidates.

On the other hand, considering how competitive things are, I would also think that courtesy interviews are rare nowadays. Just too little interview spots and so many applicants. This will give you some peace of mind knowing that the interviews you get are based on your credentials and application only. But I am sure that they are still offered at some places.

 

[stephew]

but dont forget, even if you dont get an interview, if you've done reasonablly well, you might get a letter of recommendation which will stand you in good stead. Alternately if you're weak clincially, dont embarrass yourself.

 

[uxbridge]

Princess Margaret is one of the best programs in the world. And actually should be on the Best of thread. I dont know the specifics of outside rotations in canada but I will say upfront its up to you do look into the details, since they are LCME schools i think you wouldnt have a problem.

Greetings from Canada! External electives from US students or from any other international student is not a problem up here in Canada as we do not have any exam akin to the USMLE 1. Our board exams are only after clerkship. So just contact the U of T and ask them, although I do wonder, "why go up to Canada for electives other than for the experience when one can get an experience and on-site audition in the US?" Canada's match is unfortunately only for Canadian residents.. but hey the Margaret is 1 of the world's leading cancer centers, so why not,eh?

 

[OTN]

I just graduated from WashU, and I thought all visiting students were treated well. The program does have a malignant reputation, but all the visiting students with whom I came into contact did not seem to be unhappy at all, and they were able to secure LOR and (in some cases) do a little research while they were there, which I'm sure helped their application. You will work a little harder (compared to my other radonc rotations, at least), but it's still manageable- certainly not a surgical sub-I or anything.

 

[stephew]

Greetings from Canada! External electives from US students or from any other international student is not a problem up here in Canada as we do not have any exam akin to the USMLE 1. Our board exams are only after clerkship. So just contact the U of T and ask them, although I do wonder, "why go up to Canada for electives other than for the experience when one can get an experience and on-site audition in the US?" Canada's match is unfortunately only for Canadian residents.. but hey the Margaret is 1 of the world's leading cancer centers, so why not,eh?

I think you missed my point. I meant the consequence (if any) of being a US citizen in a US school getting credit for a canadian rotation. I dont think its a problem but im not the expert by any means and you should check this out for yourself. I know canadians have come to our place to rotate. In any even the usmle shouldnt have much to do with your rotations as a US citizen. Anyway if you go say hi to Dr O'Sullivan for me and the husband.

 

[pikachu]

Glad to hear I'm not the only wannabe extern who had a hard time with Sloan. They verbally promised me a spot so I didn't look into any other programs -- two months after getting my application, they suddenly didn't have any spots, and I was out in the cold scrambling to find another place to rotate...They didn't even contact me to tell me the rotation wasn't available, I had to play phone tag with the secretary for a few weeks until they told me "No"...

Do you guys think this kind of treatment of (now 2) med students means anything about the Sloan residency itself? Or do they just not care much about outside medical students?

 

[stephew]

Do you guys think this kind of treatment of (now 2) med students means anything about the Sloan residency itself? Or do they just not care much about outside medical students?

remember that the people you work with day to day are not the administrators who do this coordination. While you would want a PD or chair or whoever youre in direct contact with to keep you up to date etc, remember that sometimes the pathway is a little more convoluted than that.

 

[pikachu]

"remember that the people you work with day to day are not the administrators who do this coordination."

This is definitely true -- I know I shouldn't expect that the PD's and faculty are dealing with things like the bureaucracy of away student applications. I guess what I was more getting at is, what (if anything) do you think you can discern about a residency program from the way the administration works?

 

[Adawaal]

"remember that the people you work with day to day are not the administrators who do this coordination."

This is definitely true -- I know I shouldn't expect that the PD's and faculty are dealing with things like the bureaucracy of away student applications. I guess what I was more getting at is, what (if anything) do you think you can discern about a residency program from the way the administration works?

Wow! If you really want a complete and total mind-dissolving bureaucracy, try getting an away rotation at Cook County Hospital if you don't go to a Chicago med school. I am fully convinced that there is no more convoluted bureaucratic system in existence.

 

[Ursus Martimus]

As a student in Chicago, I have done both ER and OB/Gyn at Cook and I have to say the experience is awesome. But after being denied a rotation at Sloan Kettering and being on the eve of a rejection from U of C because I am not a student there, I would gladly change the Cook experience for an available rotation in a radoc program, or even a cheeseburger on Tuesday. If getting an externship is a breeze compared to getting a residency position, this year's match will prove to be brutal. Any suggestions out there for someone concerned about getting a couple of good letters of rec in before PD's start looking at apps?

 

[stephew]

I am fully convinced that there is no more convoluted bureaucratic system in existence.

yes there is and its called the title mortgage and real estate industry.

 

[Adawaal]

yes there is and its called the title mortgage and real estate industry.

Tell me about it! I just bought my third house, and it seems to get MORE -- not less -- complicated each time. At least the new one is >3x the size of my condo in Chicago....