Special Masters program - thoughts?

[bsnmed]

Hi,

I was wondering whether ppl here have completed the Georgetown SMP or are in the process of completing it. Are such programs useful if your undergrad gpa is below average? I have a 3.5 BCPM undergrad gpa and might have to reapply next year. I can either pursue a Masters at my own university (where I will be getting a BS and BA this spring) or I can apply to Georgetown's SMP. Also, are there other SMPs that would be good looking into?

Thanks.

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[Isoprop]

the post-bacc forum (scroll down on the first page) has a few threads on this topic.

 

[Vizsla]

Hi,

I was wondering whether ppl here have completed the Georgetown SMP or are in the process of completing it. Are such programs useful if your undergrad gpa is below average? I have a 3.5 BCPM undergrad gpa and might have to reapply next year. I can either pursue a Masters at my own university (where I will be getting a BS and BA this spring) or I can apply to Georgetown's SMP. Also, are there other SMPs that would be good looking into?

Thanks.

With a 3.5 there really is no reason to do an SMP since they are geared towards students who have solid mcat scores but need to improve their gpa (when i did the gtown smp i think our class mcat avg in the masters program alone was around 30 or 31). Whats your mcat? if its 30 or above, there might be another problem with your application besides your numbers.

 

[Dr Stu]

i vote for the BU GMS/MAMS program.

 

[Nasrudin]

I think these programs amount to organized white collar crime rings. I don't fault the people who go this route but I'm calling a spade a spade. I would only go this route if my gpa was low enough to where I felt it was my only option--for some people it is their only option.

But these programs are cash cows for medical schools which are already exploitative in terms of price. They are playing the futures market of the expansion of class warfare against the middle class. They should be brought to trial.

But you know, maybe it's just because I re-read Howard Zinn and some chomsky recently. Nobody's asking us what we think. We just get taken for a ride to achieve our goals. I guess you should do what you have to do. But these programs exact a heavy toll make no mistake.

 

[DrBubbles]

I think these programs amount to organized white collar crime rings. I don't fault the people who go this route but I'm calling a spade a spade. I would only go this route if my gpa was low enough to where I felt it was my only option--for some people it is their only option.

But these programs are cash cows for medical schools which are already exploitative in terms of price. They are playing the futures market of the expansion of class warfare against the middle class. They should be brought to trial.

But you know, maybe it's just because I re-read Howard Zinn and some chomsky recently. Nobody's asking us what we think. We just get taken for a ride to achieve our goals. I guess you should do what you have to do. But these programs exact a heavy toll make no mistake.

I can't argue your words--all valid points you're making. What I can tell you is that, MCATs and extracurriculars remaining equal, an SMP raises a re-applicants chances of getting in from about 25% to 80%. I paid the price tag (with some loans, for sure) and I am now at my first choice medical school. And I feel relatively more prepared than some of my classmates, since I've already learned the language of the first year of medical school. (Anatomy terms, histo terms, biochem, neuro, you name it.) So for me, it was totally worth it.

With that, I'll make a plug--Loyola's MAMS SMP was excellent. Check out the Post-bac threads or PM me for more about it.

 

[Blade28]

What I can tell you is that, MCATs and extracurriculars remaining equal, an SMP raises a re-applicants chances of getting in from about 25% to 80%.

I'm not sure about this. There's nothing inherent in an SMP that increases your chances that dramatically. Don't forget that many such programs are competitive, so there's some selection bias there. Those that are accepted to competitive SMPs will naturally have a better shot at the reapplication process.

 

[bsnmed]

To answer the person above, my MCAT is 31. If its not the numbers, where else should I look? Another weakness I see in my app is that I don't have much clinical experience. Of course, "much" is a relative term. I have volunteered at a hospital abroad for one month and that was it. I do have a lot of research experience, though. Another weakness could be my PS. I thought it was great at the time, but after receiving so many rejections, it looks like I might be wrong.

Any advice?

 

[JMB2213]

To the OP,

IMHO, I don't think you need to do an SMP. As previously stated, SMPs are for students who had low undergrad GPAs and wanted to prove themself worthy by taking first-year med classes. I am finishing the BU MAMS program and thought it was a really good program, but I also put a lot of time and effort into doing well. They worked us really hard, as is the case with any SMP program. Many people think that once you go to an SMP you automatically increase your chances of being accepted to med school. This is not true. For people who do poorly (B average), the SMP doesn't do them any good and they have just wasted $50,000. But if you are prepared to study like there's no tomorrow and get a 3.7-4.0, then, ya, the SMP will get you into places.

Anyways, I think you are much better off working on your clinical experience. Volunteer a couple times a week for the next year and that should help show your commitment to medicine. Many schools also look for people with cultural/diversity experience and leadership experience. If you are still worried about your GPA, take an upper level science class at night. Otherwise, with the added clinical experience (~100+ hours), your 3.5 & 31, if you apply broadly, you should get in somewhere.

I hope that helps. Let me know if you have any questions. Its late here and I don't think wrote concisely.

-JMB

 

[bsnmed]

Thanks to JMB and others who pointed out that SMP might not be right for me. I appreciate your advice.

I'm a junior so I do have a year to improve my BCMP gpa, but it probably won't increase by too much (lets be realistic here). I will start volunteering at a local hospital next month and am planning to send an update letter to the med schools to inform them of my recent activities (assuming that all of them will not have rejected me by then). If I do have to re-apply, I'm now leaning towards getting a job for the gap year. I'm a little concerned about my PS though...I don't know any one with med school experience or linked to med schools so I won't have the opportunity to show it to an appropriate person. What is the best way to check whether your PS is okay (i.e. it will not hurt your chances of getting in)?

 

[Blade28]

Many people think that once you go to an SMP you automatically increase your chances of being accepted to med school. This is not true. For people who do poorly (B average), the SMP doesn't do them any good and they have just wasted $50,000. But if you are prepared to study like there's no tomorrow and get a 3.7-4.0, then, ya, the SMP will get you into places.

Great post, and very well-written! Your point is well-articulated - again, simply being enrolled in an SMP doesn't, in and of itself, increase your chances of success during the reapplication process.

What is the best way to check whether your PS is okay (i.e. it will not hurt your chances of getting in)?

If only there were some guaranteed way to "check"!

Have you shown your personal statement to your advisors, mentors, professors, friends, pre-med committee, physician friends, etc.?

 

[JMB2213]

hey bsnmed, I'm glad you will be volunteering soon. It will definitely give you some experiences you can talk about in your AMCAS activities or PS. Try to build good connections with staff in the hospital and see if you can even shadow some docs. If you build a good relationship with the docs, you can probably ask them to read your ps. I also didn't know many people in the medical field, so I had SDN people read my statement, and my advisors, friends, family, etc. There's usually a thread that pops up around May for PS readers. If you're still worried, I'd be happy to return the favor if you need someone to read yours.

I also arranged a meeting with an admissions officer at my top choice before I applied and asked her what qualities (leadership, diversity/cultural competency, academics, humanism, motivation, etc) they look for in an applicant. I made sure I integrated the major qualities in my ps.

P.S. Blade - thanks, I was so tired the other day I wasn't sure if I made sense!

 

[RxnMan]

...I'm a little concerned about my PS though...I don't know any one with med school experience or linked to med schools so I won't have the opportunity to show it to an appropriate person. What is the best way to check whether your PS is okay (i.e. it will not hurt your chances of getting in)?

Take a look at the FAQ - I outlined a way to refine your PS.

 

[Instatewaiter]

To the OP,

IMHO, I don't think you need to do an SMP. As previously stated, SMPs are for students who had low undergrad GPAs and wanted to prove themself worthy by taking first-year med classes. I am finishing the BU MAMS program and thought it was a really good program, but I also put a lot of time and effort into doing well. They worked us really hard, as is the case with any SMP program. Many people think that once you go to an SMP you automatically increase your chances of being accepted to med school. This is not true. For people who do poorly (B average), the SMP doesn't do them any good and they have just wasted $50,000. But if you are prepared to study like there's no tomorrow and get a 3.7-4.0, then, ya, the SMP will get you into places.

I hope that helps. Let me know if you have any questions. Its late here and I don't think wrote concisely.

-JMB

I'd actually like to expand on this. For those that do poorly, the SMP will actually hurt them. For those who have lower stats, an SMP really is a last chance. If you do poorly or mediocre you may forever destroy your chances. Those who have decent numbers before the SMP and do poorly may be set back several years.

For the OP, the risks probably out weight the benefits.

 

[Blondnuttyboy]

I have a 3.45 BCPM and 3.55 overall with a 32 MCAT (3rd try) and people have told me the same thing...

If I go SMP, to make sure I'm ready to get a 4.0 or I'm done for. The only caveat is that this requires landing in the top 10% of classes. Yeah good luck doing that at G-town.

Moreover, aren't apps out well before the SMP grades come in? I never understood how it makes a difference.

I.E. Re-re-apply early June, hopefully have secondaries done by August - SMP fall? When do they see it? Is it all in the updates??

 

[Isoprop]

The FAQ/Guide in the postbacc forum has the answer to this:

When should I apply to medical school?
Personally, I think the best time to apply to medical school if you intend to attend an SMP, is to apply the summer right before it starts and get EVERYTHING done as early as possible, preferably before the programs start. As anyone will tell you, you barely have enough time for yourself when classes start, imagine having to do secondaries alongside. Indicate on the AMCAS or AACOMAS all the classes you are going to take, and list it as "blank School of Medicine Special Masters Program". You'll get it verified and will catch the eyes of admissions committees. Wordsmithing can go a long way. Most likely, unless your GPA and MCAT can carry you far, you'll most likely be asked to submit grades (along with recommendations from your program). Submit them as soon as possible, and as often as possible. Many submit after their first exam, which also includes a handful of small groups quiz grades. I submitted after my second exam (both medical physio and medical biochem). That way, you keep adcoms up to date, and give them an idea of the trends you are on. Funny how doing well on one medical school exam can determine if you get an interview or not.

 

[rose786]

The FAQ/Guide in the postbacc forum has the answer to this:

How is it possible to submit updated grades for just the tests/quizzes you've taken in the SMP? I didn't know this was an option.

 

[JMB2213]

Blondnuttyboy,

I think the SMP works best if you re-apply after you finish the SMP courses, i.e. fall 07 you start SMP, summer 08 you re-apply, entry to med school fall 09. I don't know how it works at Gtown, but at BU you can do the SMP in 1 or 2 years. Most have chosen the 2 yr route, but a few of my friends did go for the 1 yr option. For those that did the 1 yr option, they sent their apps in with a letter stating they were in SMP and their grades would come in Jan. Most schools held their apps until then, and when they received the SMP transcript they got invited for interviews for Feb/Mar. I haven't heard of anyone updating after the first test in the SMP, but I suppose you could ask the Dean to write a letter on your behalf. To me, this seems pretty late in the game, so I preferred to finish my SMP courses then apply.

P.S. I think in your case applying really early and widely would benefit you greatly. I don't think you really need to spend money on the SMP especially with your upward GPA trend, IMHO.

 

[caliboy07]

Directed to the OP or anybody in a similar situation,

I am currently enrolled in the SMP Program and after hearing your story, I personally would not recommend this program for you. This is my opinion but let me state the pros and cons.

You have a GPA that is respectable to many schools accross the country, and you have a year left of undergraduate. You could easily lift that up to a 3.55-3.6. You only listed the BCPM, and I assume that your overall GPA is either around that range or higher. Anything above a 3.5 proves that you are academic qualified, and it is not the weakness in your application. The best time for improvement is done during undergraduate, not after.

There are several people in the program right now with a GPA around that range and higher. Due to how well known the Gtown SMP is, many schools have put students on hold until the first semester grades will come out in the early December and January. For schools on rolling admissions, this, sad to say, hurts your chances. The earlier you get interviewed, the better. Some people with lower GPAs have been accepted to schools in October, meaning that they didn't really need the program.

People who have been accepted to medical schools are actually put in a tough spot because to many schools, leaving the program midway shows a lack of commitment, especially at this academic level. It's also $55K you'll never see again. Be aware that once you enter the program, it will be hard to get out. These courses are not easy, BELIEVE ME! If your GPA falls below a 3.0, you will not get a degree. If you do worse in the program than in undergraduate, it will come back to haunt you.

I would recommend these kinds of programs for people interested in attending the school that runs the program for allo or osteo. You will have a better chance than people outside of the program, but do not forget you are competing with your classmates in the program. In a program like mine, there is about 170 kids, and not everyone will go to Gtown. If your GPA is a weakness, like around a 3.0 or a 2.8, this is the best option by far to prove your academic ability.

If you have any other questions about SMPs just ask, but I'll leave you with some words of advice. Give applying a shot in senior year, you have a really good shot at getting interviews with those numbers. Apply smart to schools that are in your range and ones you would really consider going to. It only takes one interview and one acceptance to make you a doctor.

If you are still thinking about SMP, mull it over in January or February of your senior year. Applications are available then. Please talk to your counselor first before making any decisions, they do know what they are talking about and I wish I listened to mine.

"Never Ever EVER Give Up." - Micheal Scott

 

[Krisss17]

Great advice by caliboy07.

 

[bsnmed]

Hopefully, this thread will be useful for other people who are in the same boat as I am. Sorry, I made one mistake in my last post --- I'm actually a *senior* currently applying to med school (no idea why I put junior...perhaps I want to stay in college ). I do have my senior year to bring up my grades and I'm working towards that. Right now I have 8 rejections and one pre-interview hold (no acceptances). I'm a little surprised by these results because I thought I would have at least one interview by now since I applied in sept. I should also mention that I am NOT a US citizen so I'm barred from applying to most state schools. This is a huge disadvantage, especially for someone with my stats because I can only apply to private schools, which I gather tend to be more competitive. This is why I was thinking of going the SMP route, but after much thought, I've decided against it so I'm still thinking of things do to during my gap year.

 

[Blade28]

You applied in September, or were complete in September?

 

[bsnmed]

I completed my secondaries in September and was complete early October (1-10).

 

[Phenol312]

OP-
sorry to thread jack but I'm in a slightly similar situation.

I have a 3.37 overall 3.19 BCPM with a 9PS-10VR-12BS R MCAT. Would something like an SMP benefit me for applying in 2009? Should I simply spend the time i would use at an SMP volunteering my tail off?

My MDapp is on the left and im not looking at top or even mid tier MD schools ... I'd settle for any MD or DO school.

 

[Blade28]

I completed my secondaries in September and was complete early October (1-10).

This may be a reason for fewer interview invites - often many pre-meds are complete earlier in the season, no?

 

[Isoprop]

How is it possible to submit updated grades for just the tests/quizzes you've taken in the SMP? I didn't know this was an option.

i'm not quite sure, but my univ had an option to write "progress grades" for current classes on transcripts. SMPs should have something like this.

 

[Isoprop]

OP-
sorry to thread jack but I'm in a slightly similar situation.

I have a 3.37 overall 3.19 BCPM with a 9PS-10VR-12BS R MCAT. Would something like an SMP benefit me for applying in 2009? Should I simply spend the time i would use at an SMP volunteering my tail off?

My MDapp is on the left and im not looking at top or even mid tier MD schools ... I'd settle for any MD or DO school.

first, i hope you get in this cycle.

next, you sound like a good candidate for an SMP (low gpa, high mcat score). looking at your MDapps, you definitely need more clinical ECs. if you are still in ugrad, take some upperdiv science courses to raise your GPA while devoting a lot of time to some sort of health EC. in fact, i would suggest taking maybe 12 units/term so you can devote more time to studying and getting A's and putting more hours in your ECs. you may want to apply to SMPs this cycle, and apply for med school in 2008.

looking atyou MDapps, you probably need more schools to apply to next year.

 

[Phenol312]

first, i hope you get in this cycle.

next, you sound like a good candidate for an SMP (low gpa, high mcat score). looking at your MDapps, you definitely need more clinical ECs. if you are still in ugrad, take some upperdiv science courses to raise your GPA while devoting a lot of time to some sort of health EC. in fact, i would suggest taking maybe 12 units/term so you can devote more time to studying and getting A's and putting more hours in your ECs. you may want to apply to SMPs this cycle, and apply for med school in 2008.

looking atyou MDapps, you probably need more schools to apply to next year.

Thanks...so far nothing but rejections and no interviews yet. I'm still waiting for anything from the DO schools. It just says "processed" on my designation page and im not completely sure how AACOMAS works compared to AMCAS.

anyway as far as the SMP goes...there is a thread in hte pre allo forum going on now where people are saying if you're above a 3.3GPA something like an SMP wouldnt be necessary to help you get into a lower tiered MD school. I graduated in May and I'm going to be volunteering at my local hospital...I was thinking of getting a job in the pharm/biotech area in the meantime just to pay the bills.

 

[Phenol312]

Well, you probably want to do something to improve your app, just working won't do it. The simplest course of action is just to take more unergraduate courses, maybe retake your MCAT if you think you can do better. A 3.5 and a 33 is a lot better than a 3.37 and a 31.

A good enough SMP (Georgetown, EVMS, or Tulane) might not be a terrible idea (since if you do well, you're almost guarenteed an acceptance, and those programs have over 85% accept rates for program graduates) but they're risky (since if you don't do well, you'll never get in for the rest of your life) and expensive (60K except for Tulane).

You could also do something halfway between those two options: like a 1 year MPH or Tulane's Pre-Pharm program.

If it was me, I'd do either more undergrad or an MPH program. On the other hand if you're one of those people who just cannot get straight As, then maybe an EVMS-type SMP could work out for you.

30 credits of straight A's wouldnt get me to a 3.5. Would it be wiser just to spend the coming year just concentrating on my EC's?

I could probably do an MPH at UMDNJ...but how much of a difference would this make?

 

[caliboy07]

I'm not going to sugarcoat this. I think you are going to have to hit your application on several spots. You definitely need to work on EC, I don't think working at a biotech would be enough. Try looking for summer programs that put you in contact with physicians. Here in my local area, there is a scribes program where people follow doctors and pretty much write down everything they do and say. Some universities have summer classes intended to increase exposure to the medical field like taking an anatomy class. Anything that can cover the summer and give you the exposure most medical schools are looking for would work. I'm sure they are wondering why you want to a doctor if you've never seen what their profession is like close hand.

I am also going to recommend the SMP for you. 3.37 is decent but it might not be enough to compete for interviews. Some are one year others are two year programs. It would save you time but give you the chance to prove yourself academically. An MPH would be a significant add-on to your application.

 

[bsnmed]

Just wanted to say that I finally got my first invite from SLU! So there is hope...

 

[Vihsadas]

30 credits of straight A's wouldnt get me to a 3.5. Would it be wiser just to spend the coming year just concentrating on my EC's?

I could probably do an MPH at UMDNJ...but how much of a difference would this make?

I don't think the MPH would help you out that much. Also, aren't a lot of those 1-yr MPH programs for advanced degree holders anyway?

In your situation, if I were you, I'd bear down, get ready and really and truly KILL an SMP program. You're going to have to be willing to do nothing but study, really get excited about success, and find a group of study friends that you can gain support from to excel. Your app will most definitely be helped by an SMP in my opinion. I think that my app will be helped by one too...and yes I am ready to really succeed at one. I'm not going to go in unless I KNOW that I can get As on mostly everything.

 

[DrBubbles]

30 credits of straight A's wouldnt get me to a 3.5. Would it be wiser just to spend the coming year just concentrating on my EC's?

I could probably do an MPH at UMDNJ...but how much of a difference would this make?

A 3.37 is an acceptable undergrad gpa to carry into med school. Therefore, I don't think you need to keep taking undergrad classes one at a time till you raise your gpa. If, however, you are interested in an SMP, with your gpa and your MCAT, doing well in an SMP will certainly open doors for you.

Best of luck!

 

[mommy2three]

I think these programs amount to organized white collar crime rings. I don't fault the people who go this route but I'm calling a spade a spade. I would only go this route if my gpa was low enough to where I felt it was my only option--for some people it is their only option.

But these programs are cash cows for medical schools which are already exploitative in terms of price. They are playing the futures market of the expansion of class warfare against the middle class. They should be brought to trial.

But you know, maybe it's just because I re-read Howard Zinn and some chomsky recently. Nobody's asking us what we think. We just get taken for a ride to achieve our goals. I guess you should do what you have to do. But these programs exact a heavy toll make no mistake.

i have to wholeheartedly agree with everything said above and top it with a hearty STAY AWAY

i did an smp, i was doing fine until i had an unexpected gallbladder attack that left me so severely dehydrated i was in the hospital for the second biochem midterm. since i was in the smp and NOT med school i had NO chance to make up the midterm and my final grade became worth 74% of my total grade . i studied my behind off for the final and ended up missing a b by one lousy question. this gave me a c for the course which brought my total gpa down to below the required minimum to continue.
had my final been worth less, i might have had a chance.

but the point of the above story is this. you do not know nor can you possibly predict what you might face as you go through the year. because of things like what happened to me or other unforeseen circumstances, you can not guarantee your success. and once you "fail" you have to then strengthen that gpa to be competitive with applicants who have done traditional masters and who are coming in with well above a 3.5 grad gpa.

feel free to take what i say with a grain of salt, but take it form someone who has been there done that and is now paying the price for that year mistake.

 

[DrBubbles]

i have to wholeheartedly agree with everything said above and top it with a hearty STAY AWAY

i did an smp, i was doing fine until i had an unexpected gallbladder attack that left me so severely dehydrated i was in the hospital for the second biochem midterm. since i was in the smp and NOT med school i had NO chance to make up the midterm and my final grade became worth 74% of my total grade . i studied my behind off for the final and ended up missing a b by one lousy question. this gave me a c for the course which brought my total gpa down to below the required minimum to continue.
had my final been worth less, i might have had a chance.

but the point of the above story is this. you do not know nor can you possibly predict what you might face as you go through the year. because of things like what happened to me or other unforeseen circumstances, you can not guarantee your success. and once you "fail" you have to then strengthen that gpa to be competitive with applicants who have done traditional masters and who are coming in with well above a 3.5 grad gpa.

feel free to take what i say with a grain of salt, but take it form someone who has been there done that and is now paying the price for that year mistake.

I am so sorry you had to go through such an awful experience. And also that your program was not more understanding.

I'm not sure which program you were in, but I don't think it reflects all SMP programs, relative to all med programs or traditional master's programs.

What you went through sounds super painful, and super frustrating. And as a mother of three, you sound like you're juggling quite well to still have earned a master's degree and be applying to med school. I sincerely hope that med schools understand and look past that grade--they'd be losing an extremely motivated and dedicated individual, and one who sounds like would bring quite a bit of perspective to the program. Best of luck!

 

[mommy2three]

I am so sorry you had to go through such an awful experience. And also that your program was not more understanding.

I'm not sure which program you were in, but I don't think it reflects all SMP programs, relative to all med programs or traditional master's programs.

i have to say that my experience is not unique to the smp i was at. it is something not advertised or offered as info when you look into these programs. but the simple fact of the matter is that as a smp student you WILL be held to a higher standard than the medical students in your class. you will not be given the same opportunities that they are, you do not have the same number of chances that they do and the truth of the matter is that most of them will look differently if not outright down at you. it is also a fact that the lcme does not like programs that have linkages as they believe that these programs provide a "back door" into medical school and lower the incoming stats of a given class. the fact of the matter is that students who go through smp programs do as well as their traditional counterparts and also do as well or better on step 1. in fact the program i was in had a linkage and the year i was there was the last year that they offered the linkage because of the lcme and their unfriendliness towards these types of programs. it is also true that you can not just "pass" these classes as your med student counterparts but that you have to do better, you have to work harder and for that some of them will not like you because the lot of smp students together can alter the curve on shared class exams. it is not enough to get by, it is not enough to try your best, you have to be totally and completely committed to the program and be willing to work twice as hard as your med student classmates and still know that you might fail. honestly, i am grateful for the experience because if i had not gone through it i would not know for 110% that med school was for me without a doubt, but i also could have done without it. i wish i knew everything about these programs, the good and the bad, before i entered into one and not the good stuff that they present to you.