If the gov't didn't hand out loans like candy bars...
It's practically 2008 all over again, I'm just waiting for the bubble to pop
It's practically 2008 all over again, I'm just waiting for the bubble to pop
Specializing
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So ridiculous it made the New England Journal of Medicine:
“The problem is this: if we aim to reduce the costs of health care, we need to reduce the costs of medical education. We don’t have to believe that the high cost of medical education is what causes increases in health care costs in order to develop this sense of urgency. We just have to recognize that the high costs of medical education are sustainable only if we keep paying doctors a
lot of money, and there are strong signs that we can’t or won’t. Only about 20% of health care costs are attributable to physician payments, and many of the current efforts to reduce costs are aimed elsewhere, such as hospital payments, and have only indirect effects on physicians’ earnings. But physicians’ and dentists’ earnings have been sluggish since the early 2000s. Even if prospects for physicians’ income fall fast, a burst bubble can be averted if schools see it coming before their students do and lower their prices.”
NEJM - Error
Big Hoss
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Ahh yes if you go to an Ivy but don’t specialize you might as well drop out since you’re so screwed. People like this ( Jessica Wyatt, D.D.S. (@dr.jessicawyatt) • Instagram photos and videos ) are just struggling to be a dentist.
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But why pay 200k more lol. But I get what you are saying. Majority of us will be just fine, but some people will take longer to knock off the loans.
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It would help if you spelled Ivy correctly.
As for no one is impressed/this “bias” against those who went to an Ivy, empirical data shows this is false.
Of course it’s no guarantee and one must still work very hard.
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Imagine trying to talk smack about how expensive an Ivy is while going to one of the most expensive public schools in the country.
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Didn't even know dentists do botox lmao
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I think it depends on people’s individual situation. For a lot of people they shouldn’t pay more. For some it makes sense. Rarely in life is something one size fits all.
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I was excited about having less than $70k in debt and paying it off fast and then some dentists told me I need to stretch it out as long as possible so ill forever be in debt lol
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Eh hard to justify paying 200k more for a name. My DDS is equivalent to your DDS when you graduate. Our scopes of practice is the same. There’s nothing seperating my degree from yours.
You are Wengerout DDS and I am Likkriue DDS. Of course Columbia wants to switch to DMD like all the ivies. So possibly Wengerout DMD.
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Yeah it's ironic because a lot people at Penn are probably paying less than or equal to what MUSC students are paying because of all the scholarships that Penn gives out.
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They want to switch so that all the OMFS people they produce will be DMDMD 😛
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Trust me, I have zero grudges with the education provided by the Ivy League schools. They are fine programs. I just can’t stand the idea that the cost differential is warranted because specializing is that much easier. I also can’t stand programs like Midwestern that justify the cost because they’ll make you a “super GP.” I don’t think most of you young guns realize the long term effects this debt will have on you. It’s not good for you or for the profession. It’s funny, why do I even care about your loan balance? It ain’t my problem.
Even if we all agree that the three fancy schools give an absolute edge to specialize, the real big ballers then are the ones who went to a cheap state school and then went on to specialize. They realized their dreams and saved a grip of cash.
Big Hoss
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Is this trolling?
My thoughts.
- Some residency programs take an abnormal number of residents from certain schools - whether that be ivy league, home dental school, or otherwise. This is purposefully, broadly stated for a reason.
- Yes, gunners are naturally drawn to ivies, clearly indicated by their class GPA and DAT averages. But do people who attend ivies tend to place in highly reputable post-grad residencies because of their work ethic, or is it because the school offers certain advantages (curriculum, faculty, environment, peers, resources, LOR quality)? Debatable on whether the cost is worth it.
- Never forget, you can specialize from any school. But, as I have alluded to in my first point, school bias exists. There are certain residency programs that tend to match with students from a pool of dental schools every year. Is every resident who matches from this "pool?" Absolutely not, but a good majority are.
- Medicine is more prestige based than dentistry. Don't compare the two.
D
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Helps what? Where is the empirical data? Who did the study?
My investment properties are near my school and the market that I invest into is here as well. As a vet a portion of my tuiton is subsidized. And my living expenses covered. My school is cheaper for me. And the market for dentistry here is more favorable than a lot places. Using critical thinking versus anecdotal stories I was able to make a decision that was financially best for me. I'm not a kid so I don't "smack" talk and I apologize if you interpret it this way. As an adult I'm having discussions or conversations where it's ok for two people to disagree without their feelings becoming upset.
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You're proving my point! She practices in Fort Lauderdale, a very saturated area. This hits home with my point how she has 200K more debt over a public school and will have a very hard time paying off 470K with a salary of 120k/yr.
Also one can't judge the quality of dentistry they get via instagram. Only other dentists know not patients. My statement on hand skills could still be correct.
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Dentistry isn't a "I'll go to any school as long as I get in" profession. I'm not sure how long it'll take before people realize this. I only got into NYU. Didn't go. Just finished my first semester of med school and i couldn't be happier for the big bullet I dodged. I really urge the pre-dents to do the math before attending one of these schools.
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Well for starters, considering she owns her own practice and is getting veneers from Dr. Apa it’s highly unlikely she is only making 120k a year. However, the point of my response was to shoot down the narrative that just because you’re going to an Ivy means your hand skills are trash and will forever be the case. You can still be successful out of an Ivy even if you don’t specialize. Hell there’s some folks who do the dual degree program with the business school and end up never becoming clinicians.
I go to Columbia. Yes historically we got less time to work with our hands, however this is no longer the case. Plus, any dental student who think they are only going to use the skills they learned in four years to practice for the next 30 is fake news. The modern GP is going to learn the tools of their trade in a GPR/high level CE, not packing class II’s.
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Ivy leagues produce a lot of specialists because that is the culture in their school. D1/D2 students are very impressionable and mimic what they see D3/D4 students doing. If D1/D2 see a majority of their upperclassman applying to specialty programs, they will too.
Does Ivy League increase your chance at landing a specialty? Yes and no...
Yes, because with so many classmates applying to specialty school, you will have a greater probability at finding upperclassman mentors that will guide you through the game of specializing. (Yes, it is a game, and knowing how to play it helps tremendously). Not only that, upperclassman that MATCHed to a program you are applying to can speak in favor of you and really swing votes in your favor when it comes to ranking. With so many Ivy Leaguers in specialty school, the likely hood of finding an upperclassman you know at a residency is high.
Now the No. Ivy Leagues send a deluge of applicants into specialty. For Example, UPenn had over 40 applicants this year for Pediatrics, of a class size of 130. Almost 1/3 of the class applied to Peds. Residency Program Directors are going to limit the number of interview spots for students from certain schools, no matter how qualified they are. Our program, when seeing a large number of applicants from a certain school, limited the number we interviewed to 5. So lets say we had 30 UPenn applicants, we would only invite 5 for to interview.
Along with that, your application means everything in landing that initial interview. It needs to be refined, with a strong statement and strong letters of rec. Again, lets take UPenn as an example... The Pediatric chair had to write 40 Letters of Rec. Do you think he/she was able to put ample time into writing a strong letter of rec or in helping look over your application? At schools with large specialty applicants, you are just another applicant, making it hard to stand out or to receive ample attention from faculty. With that logic, it's nice going to a school where there are only a handful of applicants because there you can receive the one-on-one attention, as well as there is less competition for events that will help on your CV.
Now, how did these schools become so specialty heavy?
It is my belief, after hearing from many students from these schools, it stems from lack of sufficient clinical exposure. (And this is no fault of the students) Because these schools lack sufficient patients of the right caliber (i.e. Pts that are willing to pay for necessary dental work), students feel inadequate at being GP providers. (I have heard from too many of these ivy graduates of graduating having done only 1 or 2 crowns, and 2-3 canals, not teeth, for endo...not to mention they are not allowed to do molars or premolars, only anterior endo.....).
There are schools that do well over 30 crowns on average/graduate. Middle ground schools average 15 crowns/graduate.
So imagine being a D3, and having very minimal exposure to clinical dentistry. It's time to start thinking about post graduate plans. You don't really have any exposure performing (yourself) endo, ortho, peds, OS, perio, etc... and not much more exposure to life as a GP. You see upperclassman applying to specialties, and they share about how much they learned and how much they love it, and you equate that information as "success." So, you follow suite....the cycle repeats itself year after year, and wham! 80% of students are applying to specialty (There are alot of other factors, but not going to discuss them here)
Ivy League students (and this is a large generalization) in my discussions with them, are often times lost. They don't really know what they want to do, but they feel the pressure to specialize. You hear from them, a lot, "Oh I was thinking about doing OS.. Or I was also thinking doing Ortho.... but yeah, Im glad I chose Peds." They appear peer pressured into applying to specialty school, with no real life, hands on experiences as to WHY they are applying (i.e. I was doing a lot of ______, and I fell in love with it) They always have a shadow of doubt as to if they chose the right specialty..... (again, this is not just limited to Ivy Leagues)
My interaction with applicants from clinical heavy schools is the exact opposite. I see less of them applying to post graduate programs. It is my belief, that this is because they found the beauty of general dentistry, and feel some-what confident in working straight out of school. Schools that struggle clinically will have more PGY-1 applicants because students feel the need for more training before venturing out. Again, even those at the clinically strongest schools will need further education, but GPR/AEGDs are not always the best in providing beneficial training.
If I had to mentor a Pre-Dent, the advice I would give is the following:
1) Go to the strongest clinical school you get into. This will help you feel confident in your decision to specialize or to stay GP. There are also less specialty applicants, allowing you to take advantage of opportunities to grow-in and experience the specialty before applying.
2) Forget above if you get into a school that is cheaper and will save you >$80-100k
3) If deciding between expensive schools, go the strongest clinical one, regardless of name.
Kids are awake. Santa time. Merry Christmas!
Does Ivy League increase your chance at landing a specialty? Yes and no...
Yes, because with so many classmates applying to specialty school, you will have a greater probability at finding upperclassman mentors that will guide you through the game of specializing. (Yes, it is a game, and knowing how to play it helps tremendously). Not only that, upperclassman that MATCHed to a program you are applying to can speak in favor of you and really swing votes in your favor when it comes to ranking. With so many Ivy Leaguers in specialty school, the likely hood of finding an upperclassman you know at a residency is high.
Now the No. Ivy Leagues send a deluge of applicants into specialty. For Example, UPenn had over 40 applicants this year for Pediatrics, of a class size of 130. Almost 1/3 of the class applied to Peds. Residency Program Directors are going to limit the number of interview spots for students from certain schools, no matter how qualified they are. Our program, when seeing a large number of applicants from a certain school, limited the number we interviewed to 5. So lets say we had 30 UPenn applicants, we would only invite 5 for to interview.
Along with that, your application means everything in landing that initial interview. It needs to be refined, with a strong statement and strong letters of rec. Again, lets take UPenn as an example... The Pediatric chair had to write 40 Letters of Rec. Do you think he/she was able to put ample time into writing a strong letter of rec or in helping look over your application? At schools with large specialty applicants, you are just another applicant, making it hard to stand out or to receive ample attention from faculty. With that logic, it's nice going to a school where there are only a handful of applicants because there you can receive the one-on-one attention, as well as there is less competition for events that will help on your CV.
Now, how did these schools become so specialty heavy?
It is my belief, after hearing from many students from these schools, it stems from lack of sufficient clinical exposure. (And this is no fault of the students) Because these schools lack sufficient patients of the right caliber (i.e. Pts that are willing to pay for necessary dental work), students feel inadequate at being GP providers. (I have heard from too many of these ivy graduates of graduating having done only 1 or 2 crowns, and 2-3 canals, not teeth, for endo...not to mention they are not allowed to do molars or premolars, only anterior endo.....).
There are schools that do well over 30 crowns on average/graduate. Middle ground schools average 15 crowns/graduate.
So imagine being a D3, and having very minimal exposure to clinical dentistry. It's time to start thinking about post graduate plans. You don't really have any exposure performing (yourself) endo, ortho, peds, OS, perio, etc... and not much more exposure to life as a GP. You see upperclassman applying to specialties, and they share about how much they learned and how much they love it, and you equate that information as "success." So, you follow suite....the cycle repeats itself year after year, and wham! 80% of students are applying to specialty (There are alot of other factors, but not going to discuss them here)
Ivy League students (and this is a large generalization) in my discussions with them, are often times lost. They don't really know what they want to do, but they feel the pressure to specialize. You hear from them, a lot, "Oh I was thinking about doing OS.. Or I was also thinking doing Ortho.... but yeah, Im glad I chose Peds." They appear peer pressured into applying to specialty school, with no real life, hands on experiences as to WHY they are applying (i.e. I was doing a lot of ______, and I fell in love with it) They always have a shadow of doubt as to if they chose the right specialty..... (again, this is not just limited to Ivy Leagues)
My interaction with applicants from clinical heavy schools is the exact opposite. I see less of them applying to post graduate programs. It is my belief, that this is because they found the beauty of general dentistry, and feel some-what confident in working straight out of school. Schools that struggle clinically will have more PGY-1 applicants because students feel the need for more training before venturing out. Again, even those at the clinically strongest schools will need further education, but GPR/AEGDs are not always the best in providing beneficial training.
If I had to mentor a Pre-Dent, the advice I would give is the following:
1) Go to the strongest clinical school you get into. This will help you feel confident in your decision to specialize or to stay GP. There are also less specialty applicants, allowing you to take advantage of opportunities to grow-in and experience the specialty before applying.
2) Forget above if you get into a school that is cheaper and will save you >$80-100k
3) If deciding between expensive schools, go the strongest clinical one, regardless of name.
Kids are awake. Santa time. Merry Christmas!
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I spoke with someone from one of these schools who told me exactly this
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Different strokes for different folks. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing if you know you want to specialize. There are a lot more opportunities, resources, and connections.
I’d also say there’s pressure to specialize because if you’re going to pay a lot more for dental school, you better be pursuing a specialty that will help you pay off that extra debt. Otherwise, you just spent a bunch of extra money for the same degree.
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Anyone can practice luxury dentistry. I know three GPs making more than oral surgeons by catering only to wealthy patients in my county and all of them went to our state school.
I agree, the 200K difference in cost of attendance is better spent towards a practice or CE. Keep that 200K by going to a public school.
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While Dr. Wyatt looks like a great dentist, and has a great social media presence which is essential in today's dental environment. It seems to me that she didn't really care about debt when she chose her school. She went to undergrad at the University of Miami, which is 50k a year for just tuition, then living expenses in the Miami area are insane. So I would assume that she has had parental help for some if not most of her dental education if they could afford that undergrad. Therefore choosing Columbia, and then not specializing is not as big of a deal as it would be for most taking full loans out.
It's very situational to compare graduates in dentistry these days. Comparing people who may have zero or very little debt to those taking full loans is something you can't do. Those two dentists are going to live two very different lives for a long time post graduation.
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when should students do externships in dental school? during what year and is it usually done in the summer time?
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For our school most people do it 3rd year. You need to have had some patient exposure to really have a good experience. Some schools will give time off but a lot of schools don’t so you’ll just have to schedule it over Christmas break, spring break, semester breaks, ect.
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What if I've had experience in that specific speciality working as an assistant?? could I do it earlier and then return and do it again in late years? Thanks!
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Depends on the specialty and the externship. You can do as many as you have time for. Your best bet would be emailing the program you’re interested in specifically. Showing your face and networking won’t ever hurt you!
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thanks!
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I send my GPR's to lot's of post grad specialty programs every year. I know their stats, scores, see their letter of rec, and know them well. I feel I have some real experience with this, for almost 15 years. So here goes:
Lots of people get into ortho, omfs, and pedo without being in the top 5. They also can come from non ivys and state schools. The toughest ortho to break into is a paid residency. I have sent two. One was #3 in her state school, and did a GPR with me. One was in the top 50% of the class (a large private school). Several of my residents are now OMFS. None were in the top 10 and only one was from an ivy. I have sent countless residents on to pedo. None were in the top 20, and come from a large variety of schools. Another former resident is now an ortho...she was in the lower 50% of her class,...and no she was not a legacy.
Many others have gone on to endo and perio, but few paid positions with this.
My point....don't listen to urban legends. A lot has to do with how you handle yourself in school and after. A lot has to do with how well your application is set up and how well you interview...far more important than for D school.
This advice does not apply to programs which tout hi board passage rates. Those PD's want the smartest applicants to keep this average going.
Lots of people get into ortho, omfs, and pedo without being in the top 5. They also can come from non ivys and state schools. The toughest ortho to break into is a paid residency. I have sent two. One was #3 in her state school, and did a GPR with me. One was in the top 50% of the class (a large private school). Several of my residents are now OMFS. None were in the top 10 and only one was from an ivy. I have sent countless residents on to pedo. None were in the top 20, and come from a large variety of schools. Another former resident is now an ortho...she was in the lower 50% of her class,...and no she was not a legacy.
Many others have gone on to endo and perio, but few paid positions with this.
My point....don't listen to urban legends. A lot has to do with how you handle yourself in school and after. A lot has to do with how well your application is set up and how well you interview...far more important than for D school.
This advice does not apply to programs which tout hi board passage rates. Those PD's want the smartest applicants to keep this average going.
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Honest question: how many programs taut high board scores?
Also, would you say you’ve only had 1 resident from an Ivy league school match to OMFS because most match directly out of dental school and don’t need to to an AEGD or GPR?
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Do you know if prosthodontics is generally really competitive? I don’t ever hear people talk about it. Thanks!
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@DSchoolorBust202X In the words of my grand father prosth is just expensive general dentistry
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Oh no 🤔 Haha I was told it was a good residency route for those interested in engineering, but now I know haha
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Don't listen to them. Prosthos are the engineers of dentistry. They're king when it comes to materials and dentures: fixed and removable. Prosth is even getting more involved with implants. People just don't know what they do until they go to school
Edit: and to answer your question, there are more roads to Prosth than other specialties. Good field, I just hate labwork!
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It's definitely something I'll continue to look into, so thanks for the encouragement! I just have not EVER seen it mentioned here, so I was curious as to why more than anything.
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Cause people think they only do crowns and dentures which their general dentist can do. But prosth has its place just like endo does even though general dentists can do that
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To specialize, do you have to do research? From what I know, perio looks at research but other ones look at your grade more.
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The problem with prosth is there are few paid residencies. My GPR got into a paid prosth Residency, but her app was very strong and she interviews well.
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Another generalization, urban legend, or random thought that has no justification in fact. Since I actually know the people I am talking about, their grades, and full app, what I can say is that everyone has an individual situation which plays into the application process. Not every situation is based on grades and scores. Basically, people do what works for them. It's that simple. And don't forget, I'm in NY.
Go cheap. Used to think like some of these posters but 2 things changed me.
1) Specializing in a state school and being high ranked is how much work you put in. You may work harder, but I think anyone can do it. Contrary to what's said in this thread, not everyone wants to specialize. Being #1 may be hard and more variables are at play, but being top 10-15 is straightforward if you work harder than others.
2) Your opinions on what you want to do may change. I have realized I don't want to do more years in residency even if my rank allows me to. Kept doors open but I have taken a liking to the procedures we've been doing so far. Had I gone to a 400-500k+ school, I would be pigeonholed into specializing. The years of investment seem small as a predent but once in school, you may realize you don't want another 3+ years stacked on.
Believe me go cheap and work an extra 8 hours per week than your peers and you'll get where you need to go. From friends I've spoken to at other schools, to people in classes above me, it seems that to be top 10-15 anywhere, it's just putting in the time. People work hard in dental school, but if you truly want it, you will naturally work harder. Even hand skills can be learned. Better to work an extra 8 hours per week in the first year or two of dental school than to have to pay 150k+ more. That's like ~700 hours for 150k. Just think of being paid 200 bucks per hour you study more than a top quarter student. Not a bad deal.
1) Specializing in a state school and being high ranked is how much work you put in. You may work harder, but I think anyone can do it. Contrary to what's said in this thread, not everyone wants to specialize. Being #1 may be hard and more variables are at play, but being top 10-15 is straightforward if you work harder than others.
2) Your opinions on what you want to do may change. I have realized I don't want to do more years in residency even if my rank allows me to. Kept doors open but I have taken a liking to the procedures we've been doing so far. Had I gone to a 400-500k+ school, I would be pigeonholed into specializing. The years of investment seem small as a predent but once in school, you may realize you don't want another 3+ years stacked on.
Believe me go cheap and work an extra 8 hours per week than your peers and you'll get where you need to go. From friends I've spoken to at other schools, to people in classes above me, it seems that to be top 10-15 anywhere, it's just putting in the time. People work hard in dental school, but if you truly want it, you will naturally work harder. Even hand skills can be learned. Better to work an extra 8 hours per week in the first year or two of dental school than to have to pay 150k+ more. That's like ~700 hours for 150k. Just think of being paid 200 bucks per hour you study more than a top quarter student. Not a bad deal.
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I don’t think anyone can break into the top 10 just by doing more hours. Dental school is a fishbowl full of sharks, high achievers put together in a small environment. Nothing like college, as everyone is smart enough (yes really). The smartest and most driven rise to the top (not always the smartest...gunners).
Circumstance, legacy, and luck play a large part in gaining post grad residency spots. Just the facts. The smartest are sometimes left empty handed out of the gate (graduation). It may take more than one cycle to get where u want to go. Sometimes it boils down to right place at right time.
I.E.: you are an intern and one of the residents quits or is fired. You don’t have nearly the stats, but it is just easy for the program to slide you in rather than hunt for a replacement. Right place at right time. Seen this a few times.
Sometimes your dentist parent went to school with the PD. Any questions?
This happens in industry all the time. Something called life. It happens.
Circumstance, legacy, and luck play a large part in gaining post grad residency spots. Just the facts. The smartest are sometimes left empty handed out of the gate (graduation). It may take more than one cycle to get where u want to go. Sometimes it boils down to right place at right time.
I.E.: you are an intern and one of the residents quits or is fired. You don’t have nearly the stats, but it is just easy for the program to slide you in rather than hunt for a replacement. Right place at right time. Seen this a few times.
Sometimes your dentist parent went to school with the PD. Any questions?
This happens in industry all the time. Something called life. It happens.
