[SPLIT FROM THREAD]: Another self-defense gun thread

[coprolalia]

LET'S TALK ABOUT SELF-PROTECTION... WHAT ARE YOUR METHODS OF CHOICE?

i.e. Some hoodlums broke into one of our neighbor's house, and my wife has been super paranoid all week. Think it's time to buy a gun. Should I get a Glock 27 or 23? How about a pistol-grip Mossberg 500? Please advise.

Broad subject. Previously addressed. Many caveats.

Shotguns are great and cost-effective weapons, a little difficult to yield effectively in closed quarters, and you definitely need hearing protection if you ever discharge one indoors.

I recommend a relatively inexpensive revolver for your uses, preferably .38 special or .357 magnum. The reason is that it is very difficult, if not impossible, to have a malfunction during your "time of need" with such a weapon. You and your wife should become proficient shooting it (several hundred rounds) so that the first time you fire it isn't at a potential would-be perpetrator inside your house.

I also HIGHLY suggest that you get a locking gun case to go at your bedside that the gun would be placed inside of. You take the drawer out and bolt the locking case from the inside. Not only does this help prevent theft, it also helps prevent little hands from getting their grubby mitts on it.

When you keep the gun locked in the lockbox, it's okay to keep it loaded. I suggest that you longterm store it unloaded and preferably in a more secure location. Also, use frangible ammo indoors. There are a lot of good makes with excellent stopping power, including loads in .38 special + P. This prevents overpenetration and possible killing someone in a neighboring apartment or house if you miss.

Also, recognize that, in all actuality, the likelihood of actually using the gun effectively on a criminal attempting to enter your house is - statistically - far less likely than you (or your spouse) using accidentally (or intentionally) on someone otherwise near-and-dear to you, including yourself.

This shouldn't deter you, however, from legal and responsible gun ownership.

REMEMBER: Keep earplugs and a flashlight in the drawer with the lockbox. You don't want to fire any gun indoors without hearing protection.

This is advice from a legal and responsible gun owner for decades.

-copro

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[coprolalia]

I also think you can use:

- Tasers
- Pepper spray
- Cellphones
- Yelling, running, signaling for help

The question becomes in the situation: is my life currently being threatened?

This is the question that you will have to answer in court if you decide to use deadly force against someone... in most states.

I was mugged when I was in medical school. This happened while I was living in Houston, TX. I happened to be unarmed at the time. I got money taken away from me, and fortunately, that was it.

So, there are a lot of questions I still have about what I would've/should've done differently. For example, if I had been armed (the four assailants, who were never caught by the way, all had large knives), would I have been justified in shooting? In Texas, certainly that answer is "yes".

Anyway, it's not always black-and-white what you would do in that situation. So, I actually think it's important to discuss the reality of what you would do, not some theoretically "I just need a gun"stuff.

For those of us who've actually been in a life-and-death situation, not just in close proximity to one, it's a completely different thing. I'll tell you right now that if I'd had one of my firearms on me, I would've shot to kill. No doubt in my mind.

-copro

 

[usnavdoc]

Excellent! lol we havent had a gun thread in a while.

First while some of us are knowledgable there are a few better resources.


--http://www.tacticalresponse.com/
then link to get off the x forums
--http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/
--http://www.m4carbine.net/


Shotguns are great for home defense but dont get the pistol grip. Remington 870, Mossberg 500, or Winchester defender. Unless you know shotguns dont go for an autoloader yet. Also the short double barrel Stoeger makes is good for home defense. Although you would be limited to two rounds.

Handguns are great for concealment and ease of carry but not so great in a defense situation. You have to practice and get proficient.

If this is your first handgun Id consider getting a revolver. 38sp or 357 mag dont use frangible ammo in a snub nose you wont get the penetration you need.

If you are set on getting a semiauto take a look at smith and wesson MP in 9 or 40. or a Glock 19. Both are very nice for the money.

 

[usnavdoc]

BTW I was wondering if anyone has gotten any new man toys since becoming an attending?

I just got a Benelli shotgun. Pricey but very nice

 

[deleted126335]

.

 

[coprolalia]

Agree with responsible gun ownership.
Crimes against property are much more common for our demographic. Burglars don't want to break in when you are there. Get a home security system. Doctors locker rooms make great targets. Don't keep valuables there. Don't be stupid and leave cell phone or lap top in visible locked car. Use the hotel safe not hide valuables in luggage. All of my partners own guns. Several have concealed carry permits. Many have made the above stupid mistakes and been victims of theft. None have ever had to draw a weapon.

Great advice.

I still carry.

The most likely thing to get stolen: one of my guns. That's what thieves want: guns, jewelry, cash. Things that can be easily/don't have to be fenced.

Keep your **** locked-up. Remove all temptation for criminals to victimize you.

Great advice.

-copro

 

[pgg]

Shotguns are great and cost-effective weapons, a little difficult to yield effectively in closed quarters, and you definitely need hearing protection if you ever discharge one indoors.

Obviously this doesn't mean that when the intruder is in your house, you stop to put in earplugs. In that case, you just plan on yelling "what" and "huh" a lot for the next day or two.

Along these lines, whatever gun you get, be sure to pop off a couple rounds without hearing protection at some point. You don't want your first shot fired at a person to also startle YOU with how loud it is.

The 5th or 6th time I fired an M16 I forgot to put in my earplugs and the loudness so completely threw me that it took about 15 seconds to get my **** together enough to put them in.

Also, recognize that, in all actuality, the likelihood of actually using the gun effectively on a criminal attempting to enter your house is - statistically - far less likely than you (or your spouse) using accidentally (or intentionally) on someone otherwise near-and-dear to you, including yourself.

These stats are misleading because they don't include all of the instances in which merely having a gun de-escalated the situation, no shots were fired, and the gun owner survived. The vast majority of cases in which a gun is involved do not include anybody getting shot.

And of course the key to not being an unfortunate gun statistic is practice and at least some formal training, no matter how good you are or think you are.

I just got a Benelli shotgun. Pricey but very nice

I've wanted one ever since I got to play with them during my time with the Marines. Was ready to buy one of the M4 tacticals in a gun shop a couple months ago as a post-residency gift to myself, but all they had was the ridiculous swamp-camouflage design. Do people actually take those things duck hunting? WTF? Then the next day I was a gun show and blew my Benelli budget on ammo and an acog. As I was walking out I saw a vendor who had one for $1450.

Prices seem to be down a bit though. There's one on gunbroker now for $1420 shipped (plus FFL).

Soon ...

 

[pgg]

As for carry, I've got two words for that: ****ing California.

 

[periopdoc]

My approach to home protection starts with prioritization. Should I become the victim of a crime, what is the most important to protect?

#1 The health and life of my child
#2 The health and life of my wife
#3 My health and life.

#4 Irreplaceable valuables
#5 Replaceable valuables

#6 Replaceable s***.


IMHO the best way that I can protect #'s 1-3 is to never engage with criminals. So I set my house up in zones.

Zone 1 is a defensible space solely to protect #'s 1-3. Preferably with an escape route to let the criminals have the run of the house without encountering me. Some people set this up as a secure safe room where the criminals cannot enter without significant effort. There are no valuables in this zone except my family.

Zone 2 is a second defensible space where I will venture to confront the criminals if required to protect my wife and child. There is separation between myself and my family and there are no valuables in this zone. If a criminal sets foot in zone two, he is shot dead, no questions asked.

Zone 3 is full of replaceable valuables on display as well as replaceable S***. Unless the criminals are specifically coming to do me harm, they will find so much stuff in this zone that they won't have a need enter Zones 1 & 2.

Zone 4 is an area where truly irreplaceable valuables are found. It is secure and would take significant effort for criminals to enter. The vast majority of Zone 4 is actually not in the house. It is in a safe deposit box etc.

I ask myself, what am I willing to risk my life to protect? For me, the answer is only my child and my wife. Nothing else is worth me risking my life. Not even my sense of justice.

So, if criminals enter my house, I will retreat to Zone 1, and exit the house if possible. I will contact the police and hope they get there in time to protect my valuables. If not, I still have the most valuable things in my life.

If criminals enter to do me harm, they will face me in Zone 2 and my wife at the intersection of Zones 1 & 2. (I would be a lot more worried about her as she has killed a lot more animals than I ever will, when she was 16, she and her dad were charged by a grizzly bear and she shot that thing while saying to her dad, "don't shoot dad, let me shoot it.")

just my thoughts.

- pod

 

[flashgordon]

I don't know about those revolvers you mentioned... they look kinda "weak".

Mossberg pistol grip: My only concern is collateral damage & maneuverability.

Check out this $700 Serbu shorty:

But I think I'm gonna go with the Glock 27 or 23 since it has proven reliability & ease of use.

 

[flashgordon]

This is what I've kept next to our bed:

Pure titanium goodness. My wife thinks it's good for cutting cheese. Go figure.

 

[militarymd]

Anyone use less than lethal devices for personal protection?

 

[coldweatherblue]

just got back from the range! I only have one firearm at the moment; an M44 Mosin-Nagant. Not the best for home defense but I'm comfortable enough with the weapon that, God forbid, it could be used for that purpose. Mostly it's just fun to shoot. . Can't wait to have income to spend on more firearms though, my next will be a CZ 75.

 

[periopdoc]

I don't know about those revolvers you mentioned... they look kinda "weak".

But I think I'm gonna go with the Glock 27 or 23 since it has proven reliability

What do you mean when you say weak?

The pistol grip shotgun is a joke, ever shoot one? Looks cool, but that's about it. Accuracy is awful. Keep in mind that at 30 feet, with a 24" barrel, a 12 gauge will only have a 3-4" spread. Devastating if you hit center mass, but shot spread is not going to make up for poor aim.

I would much rather have this as my primary home defense weapon, along with a little practice in using it.

I do have respect for the Glocks, but anything automatic requires more regular training and is harder to clear if it malfunctions in the heat of battle. I will stick with my manual old school stuff for home defense. If you think you can shoot faster with an automatic (not that that really means anything) check out this vid. The awesome part is at 30 seconds. I can't shoot like this, but I used to shoot with a police chief that did. He could outshoot all of his officers (speed and accuracy) with their Glocks and 1911's.

[YOUTUBE]Mg9kmj6c650[/YOUTUBE]

- pod

 

[poresofkohn]

My taurus Judge loaded with 410 shells sits in a quick access electronic safe in a hidden drawer in my custom bedframe I made. Of all my 17 handguns, this one is best suited for home defense. I also rarely leave the house without my Ruger LCP 380. I've hunted, shot, reloaded, and been around firearms just about my whole life. Prior to his death my Dad had an FFL, many of the pieces in my collection came from his. I fire them all on a regular basis. Much of the advice given on this thread so far is good advice albeit somewhat generic and can easily be found with a quick internet search. PGG offers some good pointers. In my experiences good advice would include:

Having a neighbors house get broken into, or thinking "times are crazy, I need to protect my home and family" are THE WRONG REASONS TO GO OUT AND BUY A GUN!! Its the best reasons to join the NRA and schedule a firearems safety course.

Marksmanship is far more important than calibur, maker, shinyness. For years my CCW was a .22, I'm dead accurate at 50 yds with that thing. Funny thing, among the few people that I revealed I carried it to, the uninformed and inexperienced would scoff at "only carrying a .22" yet a 40gr hollow point .22 at close range can be quite effective at neutralizing a threat. But you gotta hit your target......then I got a boner for my LCP.
I'm not suggesting packing a peashooter in grizzly country.....but the scene in Pulp Fiction comes to mind.

If/when you do accuire a gun, get a safe for it/them. Not a locking cabinet, or anything from a big - box store. The shop you purchase the gun from should be able to reccomend a dealer. If you're not spending several thousand dollars on a gun safe, you might as well keep it in a cardboard box. There is a great video on youtube, two guys buy a "high end" gun safe from walmart ($1000), and proceed to crack it in just over a minute using nothing but a pry bar.

Range time is essential, owning a gun without shooting it on a regular basis is dangerous. By 'often" I mean at least a couple hours a week at the range, even more for the inexperienced. A range membership should be considered part of the firearm purchase, and many ranges are open to the public during certain times.

A cleaning kit, along with solvent and lube, should also be a part of the initial purchase, your gun should be field stripped, cleaned, and reassembled prior to shooting it for the first time and every time there after. Gun ownership is detail oriented and time consuming.

Perhaps the most important bit so far:
Read: GUNPROOF YOUR CHILD by Massad Ayoob
Notice the title isn't "childproof your guns".

 

[cfdavid]

So, I'm not making this up for "effect" or sensationalism, but.....

The quickest route to get to one of the major hospital complexes where I rotate at times is literally like driving through a war zone. Two weeks ago, there were crowds of gangs about to face off. All the sudden, a gang squad in unmarked cars/vans pull up and break things up. THEN, on the same day (probably some sting or something), further down the street, the same thing happens (less gangbangers though).

Glad to see the city doing something about the thugism that runs rampant in many of our cities.

I have a CCW, but really don't carry. However, I do wonder if it might be a decent idea. The only thing is the ONLY time I take this route is when I'm en route to a hospital or to my med school building. So, the problem becomes locking the gun every time I leave the car in the a.m. in case my car gets broken into and the gun stolen....

I guess, it's worth it. There are honestly times when I feel as if my particular city is an incident (even minor) away from something resembling the LA riots, and like others have said, there's no way I'm gonna be the next Reginald Denny......

Is it worth it to "carry", just while driving?

 

[coprolalia]

I don't know about those revolvers you mentioned... they look kinda "weak".

Don't confuse "cool" looking with "weak" (if that's what you were getting at). I'm going to help you understand the difference by giving you a little more information before you make such a statement, because your statement shows a little bit of ignorance (and I mean that respectfully, only in the truest sense of the word).

So... "Weak" how? The only way a .357 magnum is "weak" in comparison to a pistol is in the number of rounds it can hold. The .357 mag bullet is the same diameter round as a .38 special bullet as a 9mm bullet.

For bullet diameter, .357 = .38 special = 9mm. Okay?

So, as far as bullet diameter, just know that the ever-popular 9mm bullet is the same as in those two most-popular revolver rounds. The difference is that both the .357 magnum and .38 standard rounds are heavier and, therefore, have more foot-pounds of energy at the point of impact. This translates into better overall penetration and stopping power. So, unless you are taking on a gang of 5-6 guys with your one pistol (in which case you're probably in trouble anyway), you not going to get an advantage.

I'd personally take a .357 magnum over a 9mm in a close proximity "invader type" situation where, at best, you're probably only going to get 2-3 rounds total out of the gun anyway. You simply don't need the 15-17 bullets in a hand-grip of a 9mm. Likewise, you're going to have a LOT of explaining to do to the police (and in civil court when the perp's family sues you) if you unload a whole magazine on someone.

Next... a .357 magnum vs. a .40 S&W round...

You've posted two pistols, a Glock 23 and a Glock 27. Glocks are great guns, don't get me wrong here. These particular models are both .40 S&W.

Now, what you have to ask yourself next is which, per the above, has more stopping power: a .40 S&W (which is a slightly wider bullet - standard FMJ load is 180gr at 10.07 mm diameter) or a .357 magnum (which is a very slightly narrower bullet - standard FMJ load is 9.1mm at 180gr - but higher compression) bullet usually coming out of a longer barrel? (NB: both standard loads weigh the same.)

At standard operating conditions, the 180gr .40 S&W round generates about 500 ft/lbf (700 J) of energy. The 180gr .357 magnum generates 676 ft/lbf (917 J) of energy. Which one of those do you think is going to have more stopping power? The .357 "mangle 'em" generates about 31% more energy.

One last thing... Although extremely rare, remember Glocks do jam. Revolvers don't.



-copro

 

[coprolalia]

Is it worth it to "carry", just while driving?

Yes. But, don't leave it in your car when you get to work, and don't tell anyone you have it with you. Lock it in your locker at work inside your backpack (or whatever). Make sure there are no limitations to carrying in the hospital. And, again, do not tell anyone you have a firearm with you.

I always carry when I'm driving (except to/fro work), especially when I go downtown or on trips. I'm more concerned about aggressive drivers pulling one out on me (friend had this happen to him at a stoplight one time... guy got out of his car with a pistol CLEARLY AND VISIBLY in his hand as he approached his car to chew him out... of course, 911 was called by about 10 different witnesses and the guy doing this got arrested almost immediately for brandishing). I'm always ready to shoot back.

I always take one when I go camping.

I never take it to work with me, although your situation is different.

Lot of crazy people out there.

-copro

 

[pgg]

If you're not spending several thousand dollars on a gun safe, you might as well keep it in a cardboard box.

I see what you're getting at here, and I mostly agree ... if the reason you bought the safe was to keep burglars out.

But there are two completely different reasons for buying a safe:
1 - to keep persistent/smart thieves out (all you can really do is slow them down)
2 - to keep kids from getting to the guns

(2) is a legal requirement in most places that is satisfied by the cheap Wal-Mart or Home Depot "safe" or a locking cabinet. It'll also CYA if the weapons are stolen and used in a crime.

No safe will keep out thieves, but once you get past a couple thousand dollars, you'll significantly add to the time they'll spend and noise they'll make trying to get into it.

As with all things security-related, you have to first decide what threat you wish to counter.

Also, regarding theft - it's important to lock up the ammo too. These days a case of ammo (particularly good hollow point personal protection ammo) may cost more than the gun itself. It's a lot easier for a thief to sell ammo than a gun, too.

At standard operating conditions, the 180gr .40 S&W round generates about 500 ft/lbf (700 J) of energy. The 180gr .357 magnum generates 676 ft/lbf (917 J) of energy. Which one of those do you think is going to have more stopping power? The .357 "mangle 'em" generates about 31% more energy.

Not that I'm disagreeing with the point you were making, but it's not all foot-pounds. A tiny little 5.56 fired out of an AR-15 will get you well over 1000foot pounds, and a 230 grain .45 acp fired out of my P220 Carry will produce substantially fewer than your .357 magnum's 676. But I'd still prefer the 45 over either if it came to shooting somebody.

Unless he was 300 yards away, then it's the AR-15 all the way.

 

[coprolalia]

Not that I'm disagreeing with the point you were making, but it's not all foot-pounds. A tiny little 5.56 fired out of an AR-15 will get you well over 1000foot pounds, and a 230 grain .45 acp fired out of my P220 Carry will produce substantially fewer than your .357 magnum's 676. But I'd still prefer the 45 over either if it came to shooting somebody.

Unless he was 300 yards away, then it's the AR-15 all the way.

You're absolutely correct. I was simply trying to compare similarly sized bullets fired from a handgun.

The energy in a .223 round fired from a rifle or carbine is FAR higher than anything coming out of a handgun. It is also a much, much smaller round (60gr FMJ, 5.56mm diameter... less than half the size in weight and almost half in diameter than the bullets I was talking about). In fact, that energy is so high that the bullet will possibly travel completely through whatever in close proximity you're shooting at (leaving a small wound channel in the process), whatever is behind that, across the yard, through the neighbor's wall, and into whatever else you weren't shooting at.

Nonetheless, as I said before in the other thread, you should use frangible ammo in your home defense gun. This will likely accomplish the effect on the perpetrator (i.e., stopping power) as well as provide you a far better defense when you inevitably get taken to court.

If you use the appropriate (i.e., frangible and subsonic) ammo in your AR-15, you can wield that around the house all you want. In fact, if someone were to point a fully loaded AR-15 at me, no matter what was in the chamber, I'd clearly evacuate my bowels on the spot.

In my bedside revolver, I have three rounds of the Glaser Safety blue .357 magnum rounds. Behind those in sequence, there are 3 rounds of Remington "Gold Saber" .357 magnum +P rounds. If you break into my home, you've got three chances with the Glaser rounds to "get the message". After that, the heat is coming....

-copro

 

[pgg]

a far better defense when you inevitably get taken to court.

And this is just one more reminder that anybody worth shooting once is worth shooting several times, preferably in quick succession before he hits the floor. I'd rather endure the inevitable civil suit filed by a family member of the deceased gentleman than see the scumbag live and inevitably have the jury see the now clean-cut, suit-wearing, well-coached, well-spoken, community-serving, youth-disadvantaged, grandma-grocery-carrying, maimed "victim" in court ...

 

[coprolalia]

And this is just one more reminder that anybody worth shooting once is worth shooting several times, preferably in quick succession before he hits the floor. I'd rather endure the inevitable civil suit filed by a family member of the deceased gentleman than see the scumbag live and inevitably have the jury see the now clean-cut, suit-wearing, well-coached, well-spoken, community-serving, youth-disadvantaged, grandma-grocery-carrying, maimed "victim" in court ...

That's one school of thought.

What about your duty, as a physician and - more specifically - an anesthesiologist who's expert in trauma resuscitation (among other things), to try to resuscitate someone after you shoot them? What happens if you don't try?

How will a "shoot to kill" doctor play in court, as opposed to one who used minimally-lethal defensive ammo to simply stop a now-spit-shinned-and-dolled-up scumbug from hurting him or his family? Which one will most juries see through?

-copro

 

[coprolalia]

In my bedside revolver, I have three rounds of the Glaser Safety blue .357 magnum rounds. Behind those in sequence, there are 3 rounds of Remington "Gold Saber" .357 magnum +P rounds. If you break into my home, you've got three chances with the Glaser rounds to "get the message". After that, the heat is coming....

Furthermore (and this is the 100% truth), I have a friend who's a prosecuting attorney for the local DA's office in the State that in which he lives. He primarily prosecutes drug dealers. He's actually the one that suggested this configuration to me.

He told me that, if he were to receive this from the police in the form of an arrest against the person who defended himself, the precedent in his office is that they would be unlikely to pursue criminal charges in court against someone who legally defended him/herself in such a manner, unless there were other extenuating circumstances.

-copro

 

[pgg]

What about your duty, as a physician and - more specifically - an anesthesiologist who's expert in trauma resuscitation (among other things), to try to resuscitate someone after you shoot them? What happens if you don't try?

I'm in the military, have deployed to Afghanistan and Iraq (post-PGY1 and pre-residency), and have done my best to resuscitate true scum-of-the-earth *******s that minutes earlier had been ventilated because of their profound scumminess. I understand the moral and legal imperative to aid a person once they're no longer a threat. I've been there, and didn't half-ass the attempt. I didn't exactly shed any tears when the ****ers expired, but I tried. I'd do the same for some home-invading POS.

But you know as well as I do that even if I'd just finished my weekly poker game with my friends Mr Traumasurgeon, Mr ERdude, and Mr HighspeedlowdragCombatmedic ... we're more or less limited to BLS until an ambulance gets there. CPR and rescue breathing doesn't do much for a guy with a couple holes above the diaphragm.

How will a "shoot to kill" doctor play in court, as opposed to one who used minimally-lethal defensive ammo to simply stop a now-spit-shinned-and-dolled-up scumbug from hurting him or his family? Which one will most juries see through?

One can never, ever predict exactly what a jury will do. This just underscores the importance of not shooting someone unless you really believe you are in mortal danger. In the end, provided you're justified in shooting the guy in the first place, you're not going to lose either a criminal or civil case. But in the best case, you're still out a ton of money and time for defense, not to mention the variable and very hard to predict psychological impact.

If you're not shooting to kill, you're doing it wrong. Aim center body mass. Don't wait to see if shot #1 was effective before firing shot #2.

My defensive ammo is 230 g .45acp Gold Dot hollow points. I do have something less lethal at my disposal: harsh language. If it gets to the point where I feel shooting someone is necessary, I want the most lethal thug-stopping round available.

 

[RussianJoo]

 

[usnavdoc]

Good concept but unless I want to be shooting through cars(or my neighbors houses) Im not grabbing my AK or my AR. Im grabbing my Benelli M4. 9 12Ga oo buck downrange in 2-3sec. Plenty of stopping power if I need it.

 

[bubalus]

pod,

I like your attitude and your description of your zones. Can you tell me more about the physical setup? I'm thinking about the different houses I have lived in and how I would do that. Some definitely work out better than others.

Thanks

 

[LongSnow]

Shoots either .45 or 410 shot shells. Put some 000 buck 410 shells in that baby and you got one hell of a self defense pistol!

My concern in my house is shot going through walls and injuring family members. I've heard of bullets specifically designed not to penetrate walls - anybody out there with knowlege on such a round? Could always put rock salt in the first 410 shot shell, then have the real shells after that.

Earlier on this thread was some talk about loud guns, I have a Browning 30-06 with a muzzle break on it (BOSS system), that is the loudest gun I have ever shot. Much louder than yhe 300 winchester magnum, or the .338.

 

[coprolalia]

Shoots either .45 or 410 shot shells. Put some 000 buck 410 shells in that baby and you got one hell of a self defense pistol!

My concern in my house is shot going through walls and injuring family members. I've heard of bullets specifically designed not to penetrate walls - anybody out there with knowlege on such a round? Could always put rock salt in the first 410 shot shell, then have the real shells after that.

Earlier on this thread was some talk about loud guns, I have a Browning 30-06 with a muzzle break on it (BOSS system), that is the loudest gun I have ever shot. Much louder than yhe 300 winchester magnum, or the .338.

You haven't been reading and/or paying attention. Already discussed.

-copro

 

[pgg]

Shoots either .45 or 410 shot shells. Put some 000 buck 410 shells in that baby and you got one hell of a self defense pistol!

The best thing about a Judge is that someday you'll be able to sell it to someone who thinks .410 shot shells are useful for shooting people. If you want a shotgun, get a shotgun. If you want a .45, get a .45.

I'm not a fan. Others love them. There are endless flamewars on the internet about them. YMMV.

I've heard of bullets specifically designed not to penetrate walls - anybody out there with knowlege on such a round?

Google frangible ammunition.

Could always put rock salt in the first 410 shot shell, then have the real shells after that.

No, don't do that. Aside from being hopelessly ineffective, there may be legal repercussions to Macgyvering up homebrew munitions. Use factory loaded personal defense ammunition. Whatever local law enforcement uses is a good place to start.

 

[coprolalia]

I mentioned already that I use the Glaser Safety Blue in my .357 magnum revolver.

Here's the other round I put "behind" the Glaser Safety Blue rounds in sequence.

http://www.remington.com/products/ammunition/handgun/golden_saber_HPJ.asp

Like I said before, they get three chances to "get the message" before I shoot to kill. I may be wrong, and pgg's point about unpredictable juries duly noted, but I believe I can fully defend myself in court.

-copro

 

[coprolalia]

And, one more thing about a revolver vs. a pistol in a defensive situation...

We've already talked about a semi-auto pistol failing to cycle or go into battery.

But, the other problem with a semi-auto pistol is if you actually have a round fail to discharge (bad primer, etc.).

With a pistol, you have to re-rack the slide to eject the failed round. With a revolver, you just pull the bang-button again, and it fires the next round in the sequence.

In my humble opinion, this alone makes a revolver superior for a home-defense situation. Add that to the fact that revolvers are far less "technical", and therefore less prone to all manner of failure in the heat of the moment, and it's a no-brainer.

-copro

 

[BitingPlates]

This is a very good read.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

A really nice way to keep a loaded shotgun out of site and easily accessible is fairly simple. You know the hooks to hang bikes with that attach to walls, place two of those above a closet door on the interior. Lay the weapon across the hooks and your done. Keeps it out of site, and out of the hands of little ones.

 

[BitingPlates]

Good concept but unless I want to be shooting through cars(or my neighbors houses) Im not grabbing my AK or my AR. Im grabbing my Benelli M4. 9 12Ga oo buck downrange in 2-3sec. Plenty of stopping power if I need it.

I have the Benelli as well, by far the finest shotgun I have ever used. Do you have the skeletonized stock as well?

 

[coprolalia]

This is probably the next revolver I will buy. It's smaller than my .357 magnum, and will fit nicely in the bedside drawer... .38 Special +P....

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=5401&return=Y

-copro

 

[BitingPlates]

This is probably the next revolver I will buy. It's smaller than my .357 magnum, and will fit nicely in the bedside drawer... .38 Special +P....

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=5401&return=Y

-copro

Nice piece. I am thinking about purchasing the smith and wesson 329 4 inch scandium 44 mag, for backpacking out west.

 

[LongSnow]

You haven't been reading and/or paying attention. Already discussed.

-copro

True - saw your posts later - my bad.

I love this thread - I've always been a rifle and shotgun hunter but have never owned a pistol. I am looking for a good pistol for not only home defense but also if I should happen upon a bear with a bad attitude while hiking. Thanks for all the info everyone!

 

[BADMD]

This is probably the next revolver I will buy. It's smaller than my .357 magnum, and will fit nicely in the bedside drawer... .38 Special +P....

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=5401&return=Y

-copro

Why not just the Ruger SP-101? It is essentially the same size (1/2 inch longer). It won't be as light as the LCR, but that won't matter for a night stand gun. It can handle .357 magnums and won't be as painful as the feather weight LCR to shoot.

 

[coprolalia]

Why not just the Ruger SP-101? It is essentially the same size (1/2 inch longer). It won't be as light as the LCR, but that won't matter for a night stand gun. It can handle .357 magnums and won't be as painful as the feather weight LCR to shoot.

You're right, but this would give me more flexibility as a CCW gun, too.

Multi-purposing. Always key.

-copro

 

[usnavdoc]

I have the Benelli as well, by far the finest shotgun I have ever used. Do you have the skeletonized stock as well?

No maybe in the future Ill buy one, but 800 extra for a stock is kinda pushing my limits. I did get a Full-Length titanium mag tube(upping me to 9 rouinds) with less weight than the original loaded. Added a mini rail so I could put a light on it, and I bought a reflex red dot sight. Ill put up a pic later today when I get home.

 

[pgg]

I did get a Full-Length titanium mag tube(upping me to 9 rouinds) with less weight than the original loaded.

I was going to ask you about that. Where'd you get the tube?

 

[usnavdoc]

I was going to ask you about that. Where'd you get the tube?

http://www.shop.carriercomp.com/

A former Marine makes them. I have to say it has functioned flawlessly so far. Its also USA made, so you are 922R compliant.

 

[BitingPlates]

checkout the benelli usa forums. there is a guy I believe from michigan that makes the tubes and have the coating that matches the gun. I paid 185 or 190 for it shipped. when you go to change the tube, take a heat gun and apply to the base where it is threaded. wait until smoke starts coming off and the threadlock should lose its integrity, and just twist the tube off. when I placed the new tube in I just used the remainding threadlock, and I have had no problems with it becoming loose.

 

[BitingPlates]

Damn those Marines haha.

 

[usnavdoc]

checkout the benelli usa forums. there is a guy I believe from michigan that makes the tubes and have the coating that matches the gun. I paid 185 or 190 for it shipped. when you go to change the tube, take a heat gun and apply to the base where it is threaded. wait until smoke starts coming off and the threadlock should lose its integrity, and just twist the tube off. when I placed the new tube in I just used the remainding threadlock, and I have had no problems with it becoming loose.

I did the same after reading about it on the Benelli forums. If it gets loose you can always use locktite.

 

[logos]

Like I said before, they get three chances to "get the message" before I shoot to kill. I may be wrong, and pgg's point about unpredictable juries duly noted, but I believe I can fully defend myself in court.

-copro

Just to clarify, and I'm sure copro is aware of this.

Glaser safety slugs are not "safe". They are lethal ammunition designed to perform more or less like regular ammo when you you shoot someone, but also designed to be less likely to penetrate walls.

 

[geogil]

How about this little guy?
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D99NHb6B03s[/YOUTUBE]

 

[coprolalia]

Just to clarify, and I'm sure copro is aware of this.

Glaser safety slugs are not "safe". They are lethal ammunition designed to perform more or less like regular ammo when you you shoot someone, but also designed to be less likely to penetrate walls.

Yes. You are correct.

They have stopping power. They can be lethal. They are definitely, overall, less lethal than JHP Golden Sabres. They are also particularly nasty if the patient has to undergo debridement, because the bullet breaks-up into shot pellet on entry. They also make a significant wound channel.

The point is, I miss and I don't potentially kill my next door neighbor. If I can't put him down after three shots, then I go for the more lethal bullet... and the potential for overpenetration and potentially hitting something that I'm not aiming at.

-copro