Stand Your Ground Law

Started by BLADEMDA
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Yep, I'm sure the Sanford police know best...

Am I to assume that you know more than they do? Until the grand jury has been presented with the EVIDENCE from the police department, yes, they know more about the details and the facts than anyone else. Demanding they proceed in any matter other than that proscribed by law is vigilante justice plain and simple. For at least a little while longer we still live in a country where false arrest and imprisonment is frowned upon. The facts in this case do not support an immediate arrest. The police are proceeding according to the LAW.


- pod
 
Interesting how those states with "Stand Your Ground" laws are most of the states I would never want to live in...
 
I agree with some of what you say here; however, alot of your points are typical talking points of right wing/ pro gun advocates. To suggest that this view is simply the voice of reason that any highly educated person would come to is silly.

I'm willing to wait to see the evidence before making any judgements.


I had a fairly lengthy post typed last night that was lost in the system maintenance. The gist of it was I can't believe how many highly educated individuals on this board are buying into the anti-gun media/ Handgun Control Inc/ race baiting spin on this story.

I am certain that there was an eyewitness and evidence that corroborates Zimmerman's account, otherwise he would have been arrested on the spot. The police department did their job in determining that there was not probable cause for an arrest and then turning their findings over to the grand jury.

I hear people demanding "why wasn't he drug tested?" The police have no authority to force an individual to be tested for intoxication without probable cause. Had he been placed under arrest or found to exhibit intoxicated behavior at the scene, then probable cause would exist for forced testing (he should have requested it to eliminate the red herring, but there is no basis for it being required of him).

What I find despicable is the way the media and the Sharptons of this world are choosing to capitalize on the death of this individual to further their own agenda without even waiting to hear the truth of what actually happened.

The police are in the best position to judge at this point. Not you, not me, not the *****s who are rallying for the arrest of Zimmerman or the criminals who have placed a bounty on his head. The police are the ones with the most details and evidence to piece together what actually happened.

Let me paint an alternative scenario. One that is absolutely as legitimate as the one that is being painted in the media. A theory that is in all likelihood more correct as supported by the fact that the police did not arrest Zimmerman.

What if Zimmerman followed Martin at a distance to see if he was up to no good and to keep a location on him until the police arrived. What if he did not approach Martin directly and instead Martin gave him the slip then hid while Zimmerman was trying to figure out where he was. Zimmerman gives up and returns to his vehicle. Martin jumps Zimmerman as he is returning to his vehicle and overpowers him. Zimmerman, fearing for his life, shoots Martin. Zimmerman never intended to be directly involved with or interact with Martin. He was not the aggressor. He was just trying to keep an eye on him from a distance to see if he was up to no good. That is exactly how I would expect the leader of a neighborhood watch to behave.

The theory is every bit as valid as the popular theory in the press that paints Zimmerman as the aggressor. Neither I nor the media has all of the details at this time and we won't see them until after the grand jury has had a chance to make a decision on the evidence. There was clearly enough evidence to convince the detectives on the scene that a scenario like mine is more likely so they let him go.

Racism in this country is being fueled every bit as strongly by the Jacksons and Sharptons of this world as it is the white supremacists that inhabit my part of the country. The Jackson/ Sharpton version is more insidious and accepted, but it is no less detrimental to the advancement of race relations in this country.

Perhaps the rule of law in this country is a thing of the past and we are just going to return to vigilante justice. Questions exist about the behavior of Zimmerman on that night. Questions that can and will be answered after the case runs its due course under the LAW of the land. There is no question about the unconstitutional vigilanteism of the crowd baying for Zimmerman's head on a platter.

- pod
 
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Am I to assume that you know more than they do? Until the grand jury has been presented with the EVIDENCE from the police department, yes, they know more about the details and the facts than anyone else. Demanding they proceed in any matter other than that proscribed by law is vigilante justice plain and simple. For at least a little while longer we still live in a country where false arrest and imprisonment is frowned upon. The facts in this case do not support an immediate arrest. The police are proceeding according to the LAW.


- pod

Zimmerman's lawyer isn't employing the SYG law. And it's even questionable that he'll be able to claim regular self-defense if it turns out he was the one who created the environment in which the confrontation took place...instead of calling the police, FOLLOWING THEIR INSTRUCTIONS TO STAY IN HIS VEHICLE, and minding his own business like any sane person would have done. I'm a gun owner (selling a Bushmaster M4 if anyone's interested) but SYG is totally ****ing ******ed. You can't go around following someone with no probable cause other than racial profiling, freak him out, attack him and/or cause him to attack you because you clearly appear to be threatening him, and then shoot him to death when he responds to your threat. SYG is nothing but an excuse for paranoid people (who likely have little to no idea how to handle a weapon) to instigate dangerous, tragic situations. Unfortunately, you guys are so blinded by your 2nd amendment mouth foaming that you refuse to accept the absurdity of what is going on.
 
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Blade, you've repeatedly stated in this thread that you are "close to the source" and apparently have insider information that no one else has access to, but have not shared one iota of that.

Instead, you've been reduced to your usual cut and paste jobs and baseless attacks on other posters in this thread. Until you can post something substantiated instead of your own OPINIONS, it's probably better to stop posting.
 
I 100% agree that the presidents comment was outrageous sensationalism. What did that statement mean? What did it add to the scenario? All that did was incite the racial connotations. I think that was grossly unprofessional, his statement should have mirrored the idea of due process that is a keystone of this country and not imply racial implications. His statement hinted to all that he felt it was predominantly about race. He added fuel.

Furthermore this case is EXACTLY why I don't watch the news, both sides paint their picture. The fact that public opinion is shaped and molded by networks with political agendas is crazy. All editors etc that allowed or ordered the hand selection of pictures that would most successfully paint the picture they wanted should be fired. How do you NOT use current pictures???
 
Hey per4mer8.

I get where you're coming from. I relistened to Obama few times when he made that comment.... I think he said "If I had a son, he would look like Trayvon". Is this the statement yoiu're referring to?

I think that he had good intentions saying this. Prior to saying it he said he wanted to speak directly to the parents who were going through a hard time - as they just lost their son. I think it was more of a empathy statement that served to demonstrate a connection between Obama and the family rather than a statement that was supposed to suggest Trayvon's death occured due to racial issues.


I 100% agree that the presidents comment was outrageous sensationalism. What did that statement mean? What did it add to the scenario? All that did was incite the racial connotations. I think that was grossly unprofessional, his statement should have mirrored the idea of due process that is a keystone of this country and not imply racial implications. His statement hinted to all that he felt it was predominantly about race. He added fuel.

Furthermore this case is EXACTLY why I don't watch the news, both sides paint their picture. The fact that public opinion is shaped and molded by networks with political agendas is crazy. All editors etc that allowed or ordered the hand selection of pictures that would most successfully paint the picture they wanted should be fired. How do you NOT use current pictures???
 
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Hey per4mer8.

I get where you're coming from. I relistened to Obama few times when he made that comment.... I think he said "If I had a son, he would look like Trayvon". Is this the statement yoiu're referring to?

I think that he had good intentions saying this. Prior to saying it he said he wanted to speak directly to the parents who were going through a hard time. I think it was more of a empathy statement that served to demonstrate a connection between Obama and the family rather than a racial political statement.

I just don't think it was necessary at all. We all know Trayvon was African American. We all know Obama is as well. It just creates a biased analogy between the deceased and the President that further attempts to persuade the public into thinking a.) there are racial reasons to the situation and b.) Trayvon is likely an innocent, i.e Obamas kin..... All without the facts.

What if some talking head said "if OJ/Tupac/Ray Lewis etc had a son he would look like Trayvon"?
 
I agree with some of what you say here; however, alot of your points are typical talking points of right wing/ pro gun advocates. To suggest that this view is simply the voice of reason that any highly educated person would come to is silly.

I'm willing to wait to see the evidence before making any judgements.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I never suggested a particular view as the inevitable conclusion of a reasonable person. I was critical that educated people would so readily accept the widely disseminated scenario without question and without seeing the evidence. The view of reason that an educated person should come to is to understand that we do not yet have all the facts with which to make a correct conclusion, not to jump on either band wagon.

I believe in due process, not jumping to conclusions or trial by media. What I do not understand is how highly educated people are so willing to forgo due process and are willing to support the calls for immediate arrest.

As an exercise in reason, I presented an equally likely and alternative scenario (potentially more likely given that Zimmerman was not immediately arrested). No educated person should believe either scenario until all the facts come out.

The fact that some points that I made coincide with "right wing/ pro gun advocates" is coincidental and in no way invalidates my point of view. I don't know if my points are right wing talking points or not. They are my own thoughts. To dismiss them out of hand simply because they are aligned with "right wing talking points" (whatever that really means) is disingenuous.

- pod
 
Interesting how those states with "Stand Your Ground" laws are most of the states I would never want to live in...

Better buy a mobile home ... the trend is absolutely clear.

Rtc.gif



Yes, this is a carry permit map, but castle doctrine and SYG laws are following the same trends.


And it's even questionable that he'll be able to claim regular self-defense if it turns out he was the one who created the environment in which the confrontation took place...instead of calling the police, FOLLOWING THEIR INSTRUCTIONS TO STAY IN HIS VEHICLE

This is the one clear, verified fact that makes me more skeptical of Zimmerman.

He may have been attacked, and it may have been a self-defense shooting, and the police may be correct to not charge him with a crime, but he pretty clearly put himself in a bad position. At BEST, he is a terrible example of a gun owner and embodies everything that a person carrying a firearm shouldn't be.
 
Zimmerman's lawyer isn't employing the SYG law. And it's even questionable that he'll be able to claim regular self-defense if it turns out he was the one who created the environment in which the confrontation took place...instead of calling the police, FOLLOWING THEIR INSTRUCTIONS TO STAY IN HIS VEHICLE, and minding his own business like any sane person would have done. I'm a gun owner (selling a Bushmaster M4 if anyone's interested) but SYG is totally ****ing ******ed. You can't go around following someone with no probable cause other than racial profiling, freak him out, attack him and/or cause him to attack you because you clearly appear to be threatening him, and then shoot him to death when he responds to your threat. SYG is nothing but an excuse for paranoid people (who likely have little to no idea how to handle a weapon) to instigate dangerous, tragic situations. Unfortunately, you guys are so blinded by your 2nd amendment mouth foaming that you refuse to accept the absurdity of what is going on.

Doesn't matter what the defense is. Defense strategy is irrelevant to the discussion we are having.

The fact remains that the police had inadequate evidence for an immediate arrest. It is highly likely that they had evidence that contradicts the widely disseminated version of the story, otherwise Zimmerman would have immediately been arrested. You are jumping to conclusions without the evidence to back it up. Certainly if the evidence concludes that Zimmerman was the aggressor, he will be arrested and prosecuted. But why jump the gun on due process? Given that he was not immediately arrested, how is it more likely that he was unquestionably the aggressor as you are suggesting?

He was not in his vehicle when the 911 dispatcher told him they did not need him to follow Martin. Have you listened to the tapes? I have. There was never a "instruction to stay in his vehicle" from the police. The dispatcher (who's instructions do not have rule of law behind them) told him they did not need him to follow the suspect after he was already on foot following Martin. He chose to do so anyway. I guess anytime I see someone who I think is casing my neighborhood I should just ignore it, call the police, and go about my business. Perhaps a sane person would attempt to maintain contact with the suspect until the police arrive so that the suspect can be definitively identified and a false arrest is not made? When the same situation happened in my neighborhood (a white couple parked on the side of street talking and looking at houses who drove off when I drove up) I followed them, took a picture of their license plate, and guess who turns out to be suspect in a string of burglaries in that neighborhood?

Whether SYG is ******ed or not is irrelevant to the discussion. It is the LAW of the land. An individual who acts within the scope of SYG (and I am not saying that Zimmerman did) is not guilty of murder or manslaughter no matter how ******ed the law is. If you don't like the law, protest the law, don't try to get someone arrested outside the law or claim police corruption/ racism.

If what you are stating is the correct sequence of events, then I hope that it falls outside the confines of SYG, but neither you nor I know the sequence of events so we can't yet make a reasonable judgement of the issue.

- pod
 
This is the one clear, verified fact that makes me more skeptical of Zimmerman.

He may have been attacked, and it may have been a self-defense shooting, and the police may be correct to not charge him with a crime, but he pretty clearly put himself in a bad position. At BEST, he is a terrible example of a gun owner and embodies everything that a person carrying a firearm shouldn't be.


But it isn't. Listen to the 1st 911 tape. At 2:14 he was already out of his car and following on foot as he was concerned that a previous robbery suspect had escaped prior to the police arriving and identifying them (you can hear the car beeping when he opens the door). He was hoping to keep him in sight long enough that the police could positively identify him. At 2:26 he was told "we don't need you to do that," but he was never "instructed" to not follow Martin. In fact at 1:33 in the discussion the dispatcher states "just let me know if he does anything else" which could be construed as an instruction to keep Martin in sight. Prior to the altercation, Zimmerman has clearly lost Martin and is concerned that he might be close enough to hear him state his address.

It is valid to criticize his paranoia and he certainly would have been wise to remain safely in his vehicle to avoid confrontation, but I can understand his desire to maintain contact with someone who he felt might be responsible for recent robberies until the police could make definitive contact and clear the situation up.

I do agree that he put himself in a bad situation where he had no choice but to use his weapon, but I am not convinced that he went out spoiling for a fight like some people apparently believe.

- pod
 
Dont you fee like a good ol' fashion fight is where it needed to end? When I was younger, around Martins age and a little older when I was in the service, things were settled in a fist fight all the time. Road rage, mis-understanding with someone while out on the town, trash talkers, woman misunderstandings, or someone screwing around with your property etc. Sometimes it just needs to go as far as someone getting their *ss handed to them and that's okay. Why did he have the right to put himself in a dangerous situation, escalate it, then pull his gun when things got too hot for him.

Looking back I feel lucky I never ran into a Zimmerman...


I do agree that he put himself in a bad situation where he had no choice but to use his weapon, but I am not convinced that he went out spoiling for a fight like some people apparently believe.

- pod
 
I am making a reasonable assumption that the police have more information than I do and that their actions are more reasonable than it would seem from the picture that is being portrayed in the mass media.

- pod
 
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Dont you fee like a good ol' fashion fight is where it needed to end? When I was younger, around Martins age and a little older when I was in the service, things were settled in a fist fight all the time. Road rage, mis-understanding with someone while out on the town, trash talkers, woman misunderstandings, or someone screwing around with your property etc. Sometimes it just needs to go as far as someone getting their *ss handed to them and that's okay. Why did he have the right to put himself in a dangerous situation, escalate it, then pull his gun when things got too hot for him.

Looking back I feel lucky I never ran into a Zimmerman...

That last post was before I saw this and was just meant to sum up my feeling on the matter.

I agree with you, sometimes all it took/ takes is a good fistfight... but we knew when to stop. When the other man was down and beaten you stopped. If Martin continued beating on Zimmerman to the point that he was afraid for his life the dynamic changed. I am wondering if this is what happened given that it is clear in the 911 tapes that someone was crying for help for a good time prior to the shot being fired. What if Treyvon was holding him down and beating on him and Zimmerman became fearful for his life?

Not excusing Zimmerman for getting into that situation in the first place, but there may have come a time when the dynamic changed and it became clear that Treyvon was doing more than giving him a good beating and was in fact intent on killing him. At that point the use of deadly force became the only viable option for Zimmerman.

There is a lot of supposition in those statements, but it is clear from the 911 tapes that one of the individuals was in serious trouble and was crying for help prior to the shot being fired. It sounds to me like one of the individuals was beating the tar out of the other at the time, but I can't prove that. I am guessing that the police have reasonable evidence of this being the case.

- pod
 
But it isn't. Listen to the 1st 911 tape. At 2:14 he was already out of his car and following on foot as he was concerned that a previous robbery suspect had escaped prior to the police arriving and identifying them (you can hear the car beeping when he opens the door). He was hoping to keep him in sight long enough that the police could positively identify him. At 2:26 he was told "we don't need you to do that," but he was never "instructed" to not follow Martin. In fact at 1:33 in the discussion the dispatcher states "just let me know if he does anything else" which could be construed as an instruction to keep Martin in sight. Prior to the altercation, Zimmerman has clearly lost Martin and is concerned that he might be close enough to hear him state his address.

It is valid to criticize his paranoia and he certainly would have been wise to remain safely in his vehicle to avoid confrontation, but I can understand his desire to maintain contact with someone who he felt might be responsible for recent robberies until the police could make definitive contact and clear the situation up.

I do agree that he put himself in a bad situation where he had no choice but to use his weapon, but I am not convinced that he went out spoiling for a fight like some people apparently believe.

- pod

I'm glad you linked that. I'm still in amazement after listening that there's nothing criminally negligent that Zimmerman could be charged with if not manslaughter/murder. Lemme ask, would you be shouting as ardently for the facts if Martin had inflicted grave harm on Zimmerman and escaped unscathed? Does it not matter to you that Zimmerman was threateningly pursuing someone even though he's not a cop/security guard/some sort of identifiable LEO? How can whatever harm Martin inflicted on Zimmerman not be construed as self-defense since he was the one being pursued?

"This guy looks like he's up to no good, or he's on drugs or something," Zimmerman tells the 911 operator. "He's just staring, looking at all the houses. Now he's coming toward me. He's got his hand in his waistband. Something's wrong with him."

Zimmerman described Martin as wearing a hoodie and sweatpants or jeans. He continues: "He's coming to check me out. He's got something in his hands. I don't know what his deal is. Can we get an officer over here?"

"These *******s always get away," he says to the operator. Zimmerman is then heard giving directions to the dispatcher. "****, he's running," Zimmerman says.

"Are you following him?" the dispatcher asks.

"Yes," Zimmerman responds.

"We don't need you to do that," the dispatcher says.


In other recordings, callers tell the 911 dispatcher that someone has been shot. One person tells the dispatcher that two guys were wrestling behind his back porch and that one of them was yelling for help. Then the male caller stammers in shock. "I'm pretty sure the guy is dead ... Oh, my God! ... The black guy looks like he's been shot and he's dead."

"The guy on top has a white T-shirt," another caller said.

"Is he on top of someone?" the operator asks.

"Mmmhmmm," a female caller responds.

Yet another caller says, "Someone was screaming 'Help! help! help!' Then I heard a gunshot."

One caller, a teenage boy, said that as he was walking his dog, "I saw a man laying on the ground that needed help. He was screaming."

Then, he told the operator, he heard a gunshot and said the screaming stopped.

Martin's family and their attorneys were allowed to hear the audio before it was made public.

"You hear a shot, a clear shot, that we can only assume is a warning shot," said Natalie Jackson, a family attorney. "Then a 17-year-old boy is begging for his life. Everything tells me that that was Trayvon Martin."

Tracy Martin, the teenager's father, broke down crying as he listened to the audio on Friday, the family lawyers said. "My son was crying for help, and he still shot him," Tracy Martin, the teenager's father said, according to Benjamin Crump, another family attorney.

The local state attorney is reviewing the investigation and will decide whether to prosecute the volunteer watchman.

Police in Sanford initially told Martin's family that Zimmerman had not been arrested because he had a "squeaky clean" record, according to Tracy Martin. Zimmerman had been arrested in 2005 on charges of resisting arrest with violence and battery on a law enforcement officer, according to court records. Those charges were later dropped.

"Do we really believe that if Trayvon Martin would have pulled the trigger, he would not be arrested?" said Crump. "This is obviously a cover-up, and we need a sweeping overhaul of the Sanford Police Department."

Sanford Mayor Jeff Triplett said he spent Thursday meeting with the state attorney's office discussing the release of the tapes. "It was as simple as us saying, 'We're going to do this, what do you think?'" Triplett told HuffPost.

Earlier Friday, Triplett met with Rep. Corrine Brown (D-Fla.), Police Chief Bill Lee and city manager Norton Bonaparte to discuss the 911 recording.

The police chief serves at the pleasure of the city manager. Bonaparte was asked by HuffPost whether the furor jeopardizes Lee's job. "We're reviewing all of our options at this point," he said, adding that he currently sees "no reason" to remove Lee.

Zimmerman had been the subject of earlier complaints by residents of the gated community in which he and Martin's family lived. At an emergency homeowner's association meeting earlier this month, "one man was escorted out because he openly expressed his frustration because he had previously contacted the Sanford Police Department about Zimmerman approaching him and even coming to his home," a resident wrote in an email to HuffPost. "It was also made known that there had been several complaints about George Zimmerman and his tactics" in his neighborhood watch captain role.

The case has drawn national attention and has outraged many residents of Sanford, a town about 20 miles north of Orlando, particularly in the African-American community. Many have suggested a history of strained relations between the police department and blacks.
 
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This can be very frustrating and I have had it happen as well. Usually I right click and copy and save prior to submitting a long post in the case that it gets lost in cyberspace.

I go in cycles. Lose one and for a while I get in the copy/ save habit for a while. Get lax and then lose one.

Good advice to always copy those long ones.

- pod
 
I'm glad you linked that. I'm still in amazement after listening that there's nothing criminally negligent that Zimmerman could be charged with if not manslaughter/murder.

I share your amazement. In fact, having carefully studied overbearing police responses to several clearly justified self defense shootings, I would say that I am stupefied. This is why I am so suspicious that there is more to the story than we are being told.


Lemme ask, would you be shouting as ardently for the facts if Martin had inflicted grave harm on Zimmerman and escaped unscathed?

Are you race baiting me? Of course if that had happened it never would have made the news cycle outside of Orlando. If there was the kind of ridiculous national outcry that we are seeing in this case, yes I would be very interested in the FACTS.


Does it not matter to you that Zimmerman was threateningly pursuing someone even though he's not a cop/security guard/some sort of identifiable LEO? How can whatever harm Martin inflicted on Zimmerman not be construed as self-defense since he was the one being pursued?

By who's account was Zimmerman "threateningly pursuing" someone? I have not heard an official account that this was the case. If he presented a threat to Martin, I would disagree with his actions. Perhaps it would have been more reasonable for him to call out to Martin and ask him what he was doing there and engage in conversation, but I understand his concern that if it was a robber, he would have just run when asked such a question and would never have been held accountable by the police. Conversely, if Martin felt threatened he was well within his rights to engage in conversation. Clearly one or the other went beyond simple inquiry and initiated the physical altercation. Neither you nor I have enough facts to make a good guess as to whom initiated the physical aspect.

If someone is casing my neighborhood, I am well within my rights to follow and watch them. I am not within my rights to engage them. If they engage me, am I not within my rights to defend myself even if I was following them in an attempt to observe their behavior?

Let me be clear at this point... I am not in support of or defending Zimmerman. I am merely pointing out the base, blind acceptance of his guilt that many seem to share, and I am trying to establish a reasonable doubt by presenting an alternative but equally likely theory. Zimmerman sounds like a paranoid, overbearing asshat who probably needed medication for his paranoia and should have been removed as the head of the neighborhood watch group.

Still, if it comes out that he in fact was following at a distance with the intention of maintaining eye contact with the suspect until the police arrived with no intention of engaging the suspect and was subsequently jumped on and beaten by the suspect, then he can no more be held responsible for the outcome than the woman who gets herself into a bad situation by dressing slutty and walking down a dark city street can be held responsible for shooting someone who attempts to rape her.

- pod
 
Posted this afternoon in the Orlando Sentinel

Police: Zimmerman says Trayvon decked him with one blow then began hammering his head


With a single punch, Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who eventually shot and killed the unarmed 17-year-old, then Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk several times, leaving him bloody and battered, authorities have revealed to the Orlando Sentinel. That is the account Zimmerman gave police, and much of it has been corroborated by witnesses, authorities say.

Zimmerman told them he lost sight of Trayvon and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from the left rear, and they exchanged words.

Trayvon asked Zimmerman if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and reached for his cell phone, he told police.

Trayvon then said, "Well, you do now" or something similar and punched Zimmerman in the nose.

Zimmerman fell to the ground and Trayvon got on top of him and began slamming his head into the sidewalk, he told police.

I was theorizing...

- pod
 
He wasn't charged because they're not only idiots, they're likely racist idiots as well, and there's probably going to be a massive house cleaning by FBI/DOJ assuming the facts of the case are how they appear to be at the moment.

Do you always let Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson guide your thought processes?

What business does the FBI/DOJ have in a LOCAL law enforcement matter?

Doesn't it strike anyone as suspicious that it took two weeks for this kid's girlfriend to come forward and talk first to THE PRESS and not the police?

Why has everyone except Blade already tried and convicted this guy? Let the process work. Grand juries don't convene yesterday because Al and Jesse snap their fingers.

And remind me - where is the racism here? No justice no peace? That comes from Al. Time to retaliate? That's from Screwy Louie Farakhan. Zimmerman is mixed race, tutors black kids in his home, and by all accounts of his friends and neighbors, doesn't have a racist bone in his body.

So here's what APPEARS to have happened, according to eyewitness reports and statements provided by the girlfriend.

Travon goes to the store for skittles and tea.

He's walking home, and a neighborhood watch guy, out there because there have been recent crimes in the neighborhood, starts following him. He immediately calls 911 and remains on the phone the whole time. The dispatcher tells him he does not need to follow this kid (and 20/20 hindsight says that was good advice) but there is no obligation for him to stop. After all, that's kind of what neighborhood watch does. And again, he's still on the phone with police.

Travon apparently calls his girlfriend and says someone is following him. He doesn't appear to know who, just that he thinks he's being followed.

At some point, Zimmerman gets out of his vehicle. As he is returning to his vehicle, he is attacked from behind (according to the eyewitness) by Travon. The screaming on the police tapes "help me, help me" is actually Zimmerman, and even Travon's father, when the tape was played, said "that doesn't sound like my son". The eyewitness has said that the guy in on top of and beating up the guy in the red shirt, which is Zimmerman. At some point, Zimmerman fires one shot, ultimately killing Travon.
 
Posted this afternoon in the Orlando Sentinel

Police: Zimmerman says Trayvon decked him with one blow then began hammering his head






I was theorizing...

- pod

How come you stopped quoting?

That is the account Zimmerman gave police, and much of it has been corroborated by witnesses, authorities say. There have been no reports that a witness saw the initial punch Zimmerman told police about.



By who's account was Zimmerman "threateningly pursuing" someone? I have not heard an official account that this was the case. If he presented a threat to Martin, I would disagree with his actions.

Zimmerman is worried that Martin will hear him say his address indicating that he's in earshot, and Martin eventually starts running away. How is it not obvious to you from how this story has been relayed that he felt threatened?
 
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Do you always let Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson guide your thought processes?

What business does the FBI/DOJ have in a LOCAL law enforcement matter?

Doesn't it strike anyone as suspicious that it took two weeks for this kid's girlfriend to come forward and talk first to THE PRESS and not the police?

Why has everyone except Blade already tried and convicted this guy? Let the process work. Grand juries don't convene yesterday because Al and Jesse snap their fingers.

And remind me - where is the racism here? No justice no peace? That comes from Al. Time to retaliate? That's from Screwy Louie Farakhan. Zimmerman is mixed race, tutors black kids in his home, and by all accounts of his friends and neighbors, doesn't have a racist bone in his body.

So here's what APPEARS to have happened, according to eyewitness reports and statements provided by the girlfriend.

Travon goes to the store for skittles and tea.

He's walking home, and a neighborhood watch guy, out there because there have been recent crimes in the neighborhood, starts following him. He immediately calls 911 and remains on the phone the whole time. The dispatcher tells him he does not need to follow this kid (and 20/20 hindsight says that was good advice) but there is no obligation for him to stop. After all, that's kind of what neighborhood watch does. And again, he's still on the phone with police.

Travon apparently calls his girlfriend and says someone is following him. He doesn't appear to know who, just that he thinks he's being followed.

At some point, Zimmerman gets out of his vehicle. As he is returning to his vehicle, he is attacked from behind (according to the eyewitness) by Travon. The screaming on the police tapes "help me, help me" is actually Zimmerman, and even Travon's father, when the tape was played, said "that doesn't sound like my son". The eyewitness has said that the guy in on top of and beating up the guy in the red shirt, which is Zimmerman. At some point, Zimmerman fires one shot, ultimately killing Travon.

Correct. Zimmerman had bruises/cuts on his face and head along with a possible broken nose. At some point Trayvon became the clear aggressor in this situation.

The Grand Jury hears this case next week. Let the system work and we will all get the decision of this Jury soon.
 
This new information certainly makes it much more likely that Zimmerman acted within reason and would be protected by Stand Your Ground.

It was stupid of him to follow, but having got into a situation where his head was being pounded into pavement, shooting to kill is reasonable. Getting into that situation was *****ic but probably not criminal.

Will be interesting to see how this plays out.

I disagree with the notions that the evil media is somehow biased against this version of the events, and that those who tended to believe the previous narrative were somehow drinking Sharpton Kool Aid. We knew Zimmerman followed after being told it wasn't necessary, and we knew Martin seemed troubled that someone was following him. It isn't like the media withheld the rest of the story- it just wasn't available.

I don't buy that there is some evil liberal puppetmaster crafting storylines to advance any agenda.

I also think that anyone using this as ammo for an anti-gun argument is barking up the wrong tree. Zimmerman could have shanked Martin at that range to achieve the same result. Gun law is irrelevant to the discussion.

The photos of Martin all G'd out are also irrelevant.
 
How come you stopped quoting?

Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk several times

Corroborated. Res ipsa loquitur.


As previously stated, I am really not trying to defend Zimmerman or his actions (even though I admit that it appears that way). I simply am appalled by those who are pushing for extrajudicial remedy for his actions and am trying to paint an alternative theory to show why reasonable people shouldn't be so quick to agree with those who refuse to wait for due process. It just so happens that my theory may be more in line with reality than the commonly portrayed version and I can't help but gloat a bit.

blademda said:
Like I said Zimmerman was being pulverized per the police report

Was this previously released in the news and I just missed it? The Orlando Sentinel's report this afternoon was the first I saw of an official release (of sorts).

- pod
 
Corroborated. Res ipsa loquitur.


As previously stated, I am really not trying to defend Zimmerman or his actions (even though I admit that it appears that way). I simply am appalled by those who are pushing for extrajudicial remedy for his actions and am trying to paint an alternative theory to show why reasonable people shouldn't be so quick to agree with those who refuse to wait for due process. It just so happens that my theory may be more in line with reality than the commonly portrayed version and I can't help but gloat a bit.



Was this previously released in the news and I just missed it? The Orlando Sentinel's report this afternoon was the first I saw of an official release (of sorts).

- pod

No. The media is just getting all the known "facts" yesterday and today. I'm still not happy about Zimmerman ignoring the 911 operator. Yes, I know Zimmerman didn't have to legally obey the 911 operator but it was good advice not to follow Trayvon.
 
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Corroborated. Res ipsa loquitur.

As previously stated, I am really not trying to defend Zimmerman or his actions (even though I admit that it appears that way). I simply am appalled by those who are pushing for extrajudicial remedy for his actions and am trying to paint an alternative theory to show why reasonable people shouldn't be so quick to agree with those who refuse to wait for due process. It just so happens that my theory may be more in line with reality than the commonly portrayed version and I can't help but gloat a bit.

Whose reality, the girlfriend or anonymous witness'? Not a bit strange that a guy got "pulverized" but didn't need to go to the hospital? We're talking about info leaked by a police station whose current chief resigned this past week and whose former chief just resigned 10 months ago because they failed to investigate a Sanford cop's kid's assault on a black homeless guy.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...ked_account_of_trayvon_martin_s_killing_.html

Can We Trust the Cops' New Account of Trayvon Martin's Killing?
Not as long as they rely on leaks and unnamed witnesses.

By Emily Bazelon|Posted Monday, March 26, 2012, at 6:00 PM ET

The latest in the Trayvon Martin killing, from the Orlando Sentinel:
"With a single punch, Trayvon Martin decked the Neighborhood Watch volunteer who eventually shot and killed the unarmed 17-year-old, then Trayvon climbed on top of George Zimmerman and slammed his head into the sidewalk several times, leaving him bloody and battered, authorities have revealed to the Orlando Sentinel."

Much of this "has been corroborated by witnesses," the paper says. Also, "One eyewitness has said he saw the teenager on top of Zimmerman."

This comes from a leak from the police to the Sentinel. Zimmerman, the 28-year-old who shot 17-year-old Martin to death in February and has not been arrested because he claimed self-defense, still hasn't spoken publicly. Nor have the unnamed witnesses.

Which makes it very hard to know what to make of this new information. It's entirely at odds with the account of Martin's girlfriend, who says Martin was talking to her on his cell phone just before his death. The girlfriend says she heard Martin ask a man, "What are you following me for," and that the man answered, "What are you doing here?" Then she heard Martin pushed to the ground. To point out the obvious, the police in Sanford, Fla., where the shooting took place, are the definition of embattled. Their chief resigned last week and the decision not to arrest Zimmerman—based on the belief that he reasonably feared bodily harm or for his life when he shot Martin—is a flashpoint for national outcry. No wonder someone in the department got fed up and leaked facts that support the cops' decision-making.


For all we know, this new account may be true. We also know Zimmerman had a bloody nose, a swollen lip, and cuts to the back of his head, though he didn't go to the hospital. But there's no way to know what to make of his story yet. That's why we have judges and juries—to sort out disputed facts. And it's why "Stand Your Ground" laws like Florida's, which the police have read as discouraging them from bringing charges when there's a claim of self-defense, are such a terrible idea.

There's a certain irony here: Usually, police and prosecutors control the narrative of a criminal case. They hold a press conference, announce they are bringing charges, and tell a story that becomes the official version until trial. Once in a while, defense lawyers try to counter some or all of it. But most of the time they don't. That's in part because of the rules that limit what lawyers can say about pending criminal cases, for fear of influencing the jury pool. And it's in part because if defense lawyers put out their clients' competing version of events, and then end up offering a different defense at trial, it's a problem.

This time, though, the decision not to arrest Zimmerman was so hard to fathom that the version of events that has taken root is not the police's or Zimmerman's. It's the Martin family's version. Now it's the cops' turn to grind their teeth, resort to leaks, and hope they can somehow turn the direction of the tsunami of news coverage. To do that, though, they'll need more than unnamed witnesses. For once, it doesn't even matter that the black teenager who was the victim here was suspended from school because traces of marijuana were found in his book bag, as his family confirmed Monday. The country has already fallen in love with Trayvon Martin. If the Sanford police want to convince us they did the right thing in letting his killer go, they'll have to prove it. They'll need a hearing in open court, not anonymous leaks.


The real problem I have is not that the police aren't arresting Zimmerman now, it's that they didn't continue to hold him for extensive questioning until the facts had been sorted out. I have a problem that the kid's body was held for 3 days before anyone notified the parents. And I especially have a problem that some folks here think that portraying Martin as physically imposing (6'3" 150lbs) or a thug or a potsmoker somehow makes a shooting death in this situation more acceptable.
 
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Whose reality, the girlfriend or anonymous witness'? We're talking about info leaked by a police station whose current chief resigned this past week and whose former chief just resigned 10 months ago because they failed to investigate a Sanford cop's kid's assault on a black homeless guy.




The real problem I have is not that the police aren't arresting Zimmerman now, it's that they didn't continue to hold him for extensive questioning until the facts had been sorted out. I have a problem that the kid's body was held for 3 days before anyone notified the parents. And I especially have a problem that some folks here think that portraying Martin as physically imposing (6'3" 150lbs) or a thug or a potsmoker somehow makes a shooting death in this situation more acceptable.

This shooting is a real tragedy. Trayvon shouldnt be dead. But under Florida law Zimmerman is not guilty.
 
But it isn't.

I stand corrected, I thought he was in his vehicle and advised to remain there.


Dont you fee like a good ol' fashion fight is where it needed to end?

How old is old fashioned enough?

periopdoc mentioned in those days people knew when to stop, and there may be some merit to that, depending on where you were and who was involved and what the dispute was over. I'll grant that fistfights sure seem a lot more violent today than they used to be, but I don't know how much of that is just internet and 24-hour news exposure to the extreme cases.

I will say that ~20 years ago when I was a pre-med, padding my application by hanging around an ER, I saw some really really badly injured people in ol' fashioned fist fights.


When I was younger, around Martins age and a little older when I was in the service, things were settled in a fist fight all the time.

My dad (ex-Navy chief) used to tell me that they would get in a boxing ring and beat the hell out of each other to settle disputes all the time. That was 40-60 years ago ...


Why did he have the right to put himself in a dangerous situation,

'cause he's a *****.

escalate it,

'cause he's a *****.

then pull his gun when things got too hot for him.

This may actually be the only rational and defensible thing he did that night.

Looking back I feel lucky I never ran into a Zimmerman...

There's always a bigger fish; the answer is to not get in fights. 😉

Fists are deadly weapons. I don't have too much pride or machismo to avoid, back down, or run away from a fight. If your general philosophy is that anything worth fighting over is worth killing over, you tend to not get in fights, and take care to avoid situations where you might get attacked.
 
I disagree with the notions that the evil media is somehow biased against this version of the events, and that those who tended to believe the previous narrative were somehow drinking Sharpton Kool Aid.

It isn't like the media withheld the rest of the story- it just wasn't available.

But we/ the media knew that further details existed and weren't available yet, but that didn't stop them from jumping to/ promoting the conclusion that the Sharptons/ Jacksons of the world wanted them to. Biased or not, the media was horribly irresponsible in promoting this story and the movement pushing for extrajudicial remedy.

I don't buy that there is some evil liberal puppetmaster crafting storylines to advance any agenda.

There doesn't need to be a puppet master (and I agree that there isn't). The bias is so ingrained that they probably don't even realize it. That does not excuse men of reason from realizing the bias and evaluating the data in light of that bias. In reality, the media is less bias driven and more sensationalism driven. They will play stories off of our personal fears and biases just to grab our attention.

Gun law is irrelevant to the discussion.

The photos of Martin all G'd out are also irrelevant.

Gun law should be irrelevant, but that won't stop the antis from using it as a basis for further attacks on the second amendment. Can't really blame them. We pros use any peripherally positive outcome from gun usage to further our agenda whether the outcome was truly independently caused by the presence of the gun. Hate the game but not the player?

The gangster photos are relevant in so far as the media has chosen to use the most innocent, young possible picture of Martin juxtaposed against an image of Zimmerman in prison garb. If that isn't misleading sensationalism to promote an agenda I don't know what is. A current photo of both men should suffice, but the media did choose to portray a certain storyline and repeat it. This served no purpose but fan the flames of racism and hatred of Zimmerman and "the system." The gangster images serve to plant a seed of doubt in those who have bought the Zimmerman as the mean white aggressor against the sweet innocent black Martin lock stock and barrel. Or to advance a different agenda if you are so inclined.

- pod
 
What was Trayvon really doing that warranted being followed? (I'm asking) I'm not buying the fact that a string of robberies having occurred in that neighborhood as reason enough. Trayvon needed to have been doing something clearly abnormal or suspicious for me to follow him as a neighborhood watchman. Being black and wearing a hoodie on a rainy day isn't good enough.

Trayvon handled being followed like an idiot. But he is a young kid and likely stupid, like most 17 year olds I know. Trayvon should have called the police or ran away if he felt threatened. By hiding and then attacking Zimmerman, he became more of the aggressor, which brought on the rest. How does a 150 lb dude beat the crap out of a 250 lb dude, anyway? It seems more like Zimmerman got hurt a little and lost his cool.

Even if Zimmerman was getting the **** kicked out of him, after pulling the gun, was the death shot necessary, given that Trayvon was unarmed? I doubt Trayvon would have continued fighting with a gun pointed at him. Just point the gun toward Trayvon and wait for the police.

Anyway, I obviously don't have all the facts. This is just my take on what I've read and heard so far.
 
Whose reality, the girlfriend or anonymous witness'?

Read my post again. The latest info gives credence to the possibility that my fictional version of the story (painted just to show a possible alternative) may be inadvertently and actually closer to the truth than the widely disseminated fictional version of the story. Not someone's interpretation of reality, just simple truth. Until the grand jury has had an opportunity to review the evidence, we won't know the truth, but this latest release gives further credence to the idea that the image painted in the media is not the truth.

We're talking about info leaked by a police station whose current chief resigned this past week and whose former chief just resigned 10 months ago because they failed to investigate a Sanford cop's kid's assault on a black homeless guy.

And because this department has a troubled history (of which the current/ now resigned chief had no part) we should resort to extrajudicial remedy?


The real problem I have is not that the police aren't arresting Zimmerman now, it's that they didn't continue to hold him for extensive questioning until the facts had been sorted out.

Then you have a problem with the law as written in the State of Florida. Work to change the law, not pursue extrajudicial remedy.


And I especially have a problem that some folks here think that portraying Martin as physically imposing (6'3" 150lbs) or a thug or a potsmoker somehow makes a shooting death in this situation more acceptable.

No less disgusting than portraying him as a sweet 14-year old juxtaposed against an imprisoned Zimmerman in an attempt to sensationalize the story. Images convey powerful messages about the character of the individuals in them and images of Martin as a thug stand in direct opposition to the images that are being pushed by the mass media. The reality lies somewhere in the middle.

- pod
 
Read my post again. The latest info gives credence to the possibility that my fictional version of the story (painted just to show a possible alternative) may be inadvertently and actually closer to the truth than the widely disseminated fictional version of the story. Not someone's interpretation of reality, just simple truth. Until the grand jury has had an opportunity to review the evidence, we won't know the truth, but this latest release gives further credence to the idea that the image painted in the media is not the truth.

And because this department has a troubled history (of which the current/ now resigned chief had no part) we should resort to extrajudicial remedy?

I don't think an anonymous witness lends credence to that idea anymore than the girlfriend's account discredits it. Especially when the witness' account was leaked by a questionably ethical police department. And who's calling for an extrajudicial remedy? I just said I don't have a problem with the police not arresting him at the moment (now that a larger investigation is already under way).


No less disgusting than portraying him as a sweet 14-year old juxtaposed against an imprisoned Zimmerman in an attempt to sensationalize the story. Images convey powerful messages about the character of the individuals in them and images of Martin as a thug stand in direct opposition to the images that are being pushed by the mass media. The reality lies somewhere in the middle.

- pod

Speaking of disgusting...

nx6EU.jpg
 
What was Trayvon really doing that warranted being followed? How does a 150 lb dude beat the crap out of a 250 lb dude, anyway? It seems more like Zimmerman got hurt a little and lost his cool.


These are questions we all have and won't have the answer to until after the grand jury renders its verdict (if ever). That doesn't excuse those who would jump to conclusions and assume the worst of Zimmerman and the best of Martin. We simply don't know, but arguing with those who are convinced of Zimmerman's guilt feels a lot like arguing with the religious. :bang:


Even if Zimmerman was getting the **** kicked out of him, after pulling the gun, was the death shot necessary, given that Trayvon was unarmed? I doubt Trayvon would have continued fighting with a gun pointed at him. Just point the gun toward Trayvon and wait for the police.

Most defense training recommends against drawing your weapon unless the decision to shoot has already been made. It is as likely to escalate a situation as it is to de-escalate a situation therefore your weapon remains holstered unless you plan to use it. Drawing your weapon to "hold someone at gunpoint" places you at risk of that person taking your weapon away and using it against you. In fact that may be exactly what was happening. If Ayoob is correct (see Blade's post from Defensivecarry) then the casing from the fired shot was still in the weapon when it was recovered by the police. The only way that happens is that the ejection mechanism was hampered either because someone had a hold of the slide when it discharged, or the combatants were at such close range that the shooter had the butt of the gun pressed against his body when he fired. Either situation is not one where the shooter has the option of drawing his weapon in an attempt to discourage his opponent from further aggression.

- pod
 
Sorry, inadvertently skipped this part.

Zimmerman is worried that Martin will hear him say his address indicating that he's in earshot, and Martin eventually starts running away. How is it not obvious to you from how this story has been relayed that he felt threatened?


That who felt threatened.

Zimmerman clearly felt threatened at this point, and gave voice to that fear. He did not know where Martin was and he was fearful that if he was close enough to hear the address of the person who was following him, he might attempt retaliation for being reported to the police. It seems that it was at this point that Zimmerman began to get a clue that what he was doing might not be the greatest idea.

Zimmerman appears to have been following at some distance if he lost track of Martin. Certainly that could appear threatening, but it is not a question of how it was interpreted by Martin, it is a question of Zimmerman's intent.

Martin either felt threatened or was up to no good and didn't want to be caught. I have left out of my fictional narrative that second, very real possibility. Perhaps he was running because he realized he was about to be caught.

Or was he actually running. It seems he was close enough for an altercation to take place in the minutes after Zimmerman thinks that he is running. Kind of reminds me of a bear circling his prey, he just wants you to THINK that he is running away.

Too many questions for the neat tidy account we are being fed by...


- pod
 
Thanks for addressing every part of my post lol. You're right that getting into fights is stupid but when you're 17-21 and around a bunch of guys the same age with more time than you know what to do with stupid stuff is exactly what happens.

Today, there is not a fight I would not run away from. Way too much to lose and getting involved in something stupid and getting a record would wreck any shot at a great career. I'm with you - keep the pride in check and make good decisions.

Maybe it doens't apply in this case, but; I dont like the idea of every altercation that may have just resulted in a busted nose to turn into a shooting...

I feel really bad that Martin died.

There's always a bigger fish; the answer is to not get in fights. 😉

Fists are deadly weapons. I don't have too much pride or machismo to avoid, back down, or run away from a fight. If your general philosophy is that anything worth fighting over is worth killing over, you tend to not get in fights, and take care to avoid situations where you might get attacked.
 
I don't think an anonymous witness lends credence to that idea anymore than the girlfriend's account discredits it. Especially when the witness' account was leaked by a questionably ethical police department. And who's calling for an extrajudicial remedy? I just said I don't have a problem with the police not arresting him at the moment (now that a larger investigation is already under way).

As I have acknowledged all along. My account is a purely fictional one based on the few facts that we do know. (Too bad the media won't admit to the fact that their story is equally fictional). I am not claiming that this new data point (however questionable you may feel it to be) proves anything, but it is interesting that the official version of things appears to be somewhat closer to my fiction than yours.

You are saying we can't trust what the police department is telling us. So what is the alternative if not extrajudicial remedy? The proponents of the innocent Martin aggressive Zimmerman theory are clearly pushing for extrajudicial remedy. Perhaps I should be more careful about lumping you with them, but since you are arguing against the neutral view of the situation that I am trying to take, I assumed you were in support of the crucify Zimmerman side.

- pod
 
Most defense training recommends against drawing your weapon unless the decision to shoot has already been made. It is as likely to escalate a situation as it is to de-escalate a situation therefore your weapon remains holstered unless you plan to use it. Drawing your weapon to "hold someone at gunpoint" places you at risk of that person taking your weapon away and using it against you. In fact that may be exactly what was happening. If Ayoob is correct (see Blade's post from Defensivecarry) then the casing from the fired shot was still in the weapon when it was recovered by the police. The only way that happens is that the ejection mechanism was hampered either because someone had a hold of the slide when it discharged, or the combatants were at such close range that the shooter had the butt of the gun pressed against his body when he fired. Either situation is not one where the shooter has the option of drawing his weapon in an attempt to discourage his opponent from further aggression.

👍 I appreciate the reply.
 
I still think it would be irrelevant even if it was real, but this turns out not to be Trayvon.

Agree with the sentiment that people are sensationalizing both poles of this story whenever possible for the sake of generating an attention-getting story, not for the sake of advancing the truth about whatever happened that night. Though I do not count the mainstream media in this, I still believe the early data available on the case gave reasonable cause for the slant of the original reporting.

 
More proof handguns should be illegal. Nobody knows the facts, but there is no need for this kid to be dead. It is too quick and easy for things to escalate when guns are so available.

Pure drivel and utter nonsense, right there! Ban knives next, then butter knives, why not garden clippers, too? Those could be weapons. Might as well ban automobiles, motorcycles, and ladders while you're at it since those all cause death in the wrong hands. Criminals will have free reign if the citizenry is unarmed - just look at Mexico.
 
Kind of funny how the liberal media only shows pics of the kid when he was 12 to 14 years old.. Like he is this poor innocent little kid just trying to survive. You do not see pics of him at 17 because he is probably thugged out and appears to be a criminal!!! Funny how the media only shows you what they want you to see!!! I'm all for handguns and self defense and this is why I have a concealed weapons permit..


Just today a 21 year old white kid (student) was killed in his Mississippi State University dorm room by 3 black guys (none of who were students), but you do not see the media raising a stink about that!!!!!! No protesting going on for this poor kids life!!! I haven't heard anybody say anything about a race crime!!!


A large number of American's are brainwashed by our media, its just sad!!!

Probably because those 3 black guys got arrested and will go to jail, but you're free to believe whatever you want to.
 
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I just don't think it was necessary at all. We all know Trayvon was African American. We all know Obama is as well. It just creates a biased analogy between the deceased and the President that further attempts to persuade the public into thinking a.) there are racial reasons to the situation and b.) Trayvon is likely an innocent, i.e Obamas kin..... All without the facts.

What if some talking head said "if OJ/Tupac/Ray Lewis etc had a son he would look like Trayvon"?

Dang, he's just saying if he had a son he'd most likely wear a hoodie from time to time as most youngsters do.
 
Lane,
Each and every one of us buys it from both sides every year when we step up to the polls. Personally, I've voted both DEM and REP over my life...
D712