Stand Your Ground Law

Started by BLADEMDA
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BLADEMDA said:
Does anyone have any comments about the actual gun which was fired by Zimmerman? This is a small 9mm weighing about 12 ounces.

My carry weapon is a lightweight smith and wesson 5 shot revolver or a .380 Ruger LCP. Again, those guns are for personal defense at a range of less than 10 feet.
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As long as I had tested it and it was reliable, I would rather carry a cheap 9mm with proper loads than anything in 380 if my life depended on it.

I am aware of the similar numbers out of short barrels, but the real-world effectiveness of the 9mm is superior.

To quote Ayoob

the 9mm or .38 Special can be adequate,... Anything distinctly smaller—such as the .380 Auto pistol caliber, which is literally a "9mm Short"—too often fails to make the cut. I've run across shooting after shooting where the defender shot a violent aggressor with a .380 and did little to immediately stop his depredations. A good hollow point load in 9mm or .38 Special will, historically, end lethal assaults more quickly.
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I would rather have a 380 than nothing or a 22.


- pod
 
Most common firearms used in crime

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,320383,00.html

1. Smith and Wesson .38 revolver
2. Ruger 9 mm semiautomatic
3. Lorcin Engineering .380 semiautomatic
4. Raven Arms .25 semiautomatic
5. Mossberg 12 gauge shotgun
6. Smith and Wesson 9mm semiautomatic
7. Smith and Wesson .357 revolver
8. Bryco Arms 9mm semiautomatic
9. Bryco Arms .380 semiautomatic
10. Davis Industries .380 semiautomatic
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FWIW

The case of what you'd find fine for pursuing someone with is kind of a silly one, because I would not be pursuing anyone and hope you wouldn't be either. Regardless, I wouldn't feel much better with a full size 9 than the keltec pocket 9, as long as I had made sure it fed.
 
periopdoc said:
Because the world has fundamentally changed? We are now at peace and there is no longer a threat to national security from nations or groups that would do us harm? Because the potential need to overthrow treacherous men who subvert the standing army and/or the government against the will of the people no longer exists?
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To piggyback on these comments, I'll add that it's very common to hear gun control proponents say that the 2nd Amendment is outdated, and that in today's world there's no rational or conceivable place for individuals to be armed. Even if this was true, it's irrelevant. Even if we grant, for the sake of argument, their notion that the world HAS changed, it's still not a rational argument for restricting the individual right to keep and bear arms.

In the last 150 years, our nation has faced at least two genuine existential threats, where the survival of our nation was truly uncertain: our Civil War and WWII. It is the absolute height of hubris to claim today, in 2012, that sometime in the next 150 years, no such threats could possibly come to pass. Giving up that individual right to own and carry arms, simply because you think there is no current threat today, is insane.

Civil rights once surrendered are never re-acquired without violent conflict. In the best case, that conflict is local, limited, and won mostly via the court system (eg, the 1960s civil rights movement). In the worst, that conflict is simply lost and a whole lot of people die or live oppressed, brutal lives.

It's bad enough that we're handing our descendants massive debts. Deliberately whittling away their civil rights because we think they probably won't ever really need them is even more offensively irresponsible.


periopdoc said:
As long as I had tested it and it was reliable, I would rather carry a cheap 9mm with proper loads than anything in 380 if my life depended on it.

I am aware of the similar numbers out of short barrels, but the real-world effectiveness of the 9mm is superior.

To quote Ayoob

I would rather have a 380 than nothing or a 22.
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The .380 you carry is better than the .45 you left at home. 🙂 I have a LCP .380 but rarely carry it ... I bought it for summer carry but ultimately found that I don't have trouble concealing a full size .45 even under light clothes in 100+ degree heat.

Nothing wrong with 9mm and quality ammunition. My wife prefers 9mm over .45 for recoil reasons.

In California, one of the chief advantages to 9mm over .45 is gutted by the magazine capacity law. I figure if I can only carry 10 rounds, they might as well be big ones. So 8+1 of .45acp it is.
 
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I should probably bring this up, since I had brought the topic up previously under a false assumption - per the police report, zimmerman was brought to the station


ZimPoliceReport.jpg


Edit: Dragging the image smaller has never successfully resized an image for me. If someone could tell me how or if a mod could correct the sizing, it would be appreciated
 
Since there had been multiple break-ins in the area, George Zimmerman decided to call police on the non-emergency number.
Police told George Zimmerman not to follow Martin, and asked him where he was. However, because he was behind the town homes he could not see the nearest address.
This is why, Robert Zimmerman claims, his son decided to keep following Martin, so he could obtain an address to give to police.
"(George Zimmerman) went to the next street, realized where he was and was walking to his vehicle," Robert Zimmerman said. "It's my understanding, at that point, Trayvon Martin walked up to him and asked him, 'Do you have a [expletive] problem?' "
Robert Zimmerman says his son told Martin he did not have a problem, and reached for his cellphone.
Then, Robert Zimmerman claims, Martin punched George Zimmerman in the face, breaking his nose and knocking him to the ground.
"Trayvon Martin got on top of him, and just started beating him," Robert Zimmerman claims. "In his face, on his nose, hitting his face on the concrete."
"After nearly a minute of being beaten, George was trying to get his head off the concrete, trying to move with Trayvon on him, in the grass. In doing so, his firearm was shown. Trayvon Martin said something to the effect of, 'You're going to die now,' or 'You're going to die tonight' or something to that effect," Robert Zimmerman said.
Robert Zimmerman said Martin continued to beat his son, and George Zimmerman at some point pulled out his gun and "did what he did."
Robert Zimmerman also responded to the 911 tape audio that has been widely publicized in the case, in which someone can be heard screaming for help. Martin's family claims it was their son screaming on the tape, and the fact that the screaming stopped after a gunshot is heard proves it.
"All of our family, everyone who knows George, knows absolutely that is George screaming," Robert Zimmerman said. "There's no doubt in anyone's mind."
When asked why the recording picked up screams for help but not the alleged threats by Martin, Robert Zimmerman said he does not know.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/03/29/george-zimmermans-father-claims-trayvon-martin-beat-his-son-threatened-his-life/#ixzz1qV0Y6uYG
 
BLADEMDA said:
Since there had been multiple break-ins in the area, George Zimmerman decided to call police on the non-emergency number.
Police told George Zimmerman not to follow Martin, and asked him where he was. However, because he was behind the town homes he could not see the nearest address.
This is why, Robert Zimmerman claims, his son decided to keep following Martin, so he could obtain an address to give to police.
"(George Zimmerman) went to the next street, realized where he was and was walking to his vehicle," Robert Zimmerman said. "It's my understanding, at that point, Trayvon Martin walked up to him and asked him, 'Do you have a [expletive] problem?' "
Robert Zimmerman says his son told Martin he did not have a problem, and reached for his cellphone.
Then, Robert Zimmerman claims, Martin punched George Zimmerman in the face, breaking his nose and knocking him to the ground.
"Trayvon Martin got on top of him, and just started beating him," Robert Zimmerman claims. "In his face, on his nose, hitting his face on the concrete."
"After nearly a minute of being beaten, George was trying to get his head off the concrete, trying to move with Trayvon on him, in the grass. In doing so, his firearm was shown. Trayvon Martin said something to the effect of, 'You're going to die now,' or 'You're going to die tonight' or something to that effect," Robert Zimmerman said.
Robert Zimmerman said Martin continued to beat his son, and George Zimmerman at some point pulled out his gun and "did what he did."
Robert Zimmerman also responded to the 911 tape audio that has been widely publicized in the case, in which someone can be heard screaming for help. Martin's family claims it was their son screaming on the tape, and the fact that the screaming stopped after a gunshot is heard proves it.
"All of our family, everyone who knows George, knows absolutely that is George screaming," Robert Zimmerman said. "There's no doubt in anyone's mind."
When asked why the recording picked up screams for help but not the alleged threats by Martin, Robert Zimmerman said he does not know.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/03/29/george-zimmermans-father-claims-trayvon-martin-beat-his-son-threatened-his-life/#ixzz1qV0Y6uYG
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This transcript is absolute BS. And lol at posting a fox news link in a racially loaded case and expect people to take it or you seriously.
 
MiracleforMD said:
This transcript is absolute BS. And lol at posting a fox news link in a racially loaded case and expect people to take it or you seriously.
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What's hard to take seriously are Al, Jesse, and Screwy Louie. Any time any one of those three shows up, facts go out the window, and it becomes all about them. You do realize that racism goes both ways right? Or are you like the aforementioned "ministers" who think it's only possible to have white on black racism and not the other way around?
 
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jwk said:
What's hard to take seriously are Al, Jesse, and Screwy Louis. Any time any one of those three shows up, facts go out the window, and it becomes all about them. You do realize that racism goes both ways right? Or are you like the aforementioned "ministers" who think it's only possible to have white on black racism and not the other way around?
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No you are absolutely right. I do not approve the slanging of BS facts from either side. Although, in this thread I have seen less of the "pro-martin" facts. It is ridiculous we live in a world where a fact no longer holds its definition and has to be labeled as one side's vs. another.
 
BLADEMDA said:
Like I said Zimmerman was being pulverized per the police report
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The new video evidence shows otherwise. I'm interested in your opinion or spin on the video. Wounds, scrapes, blood all over his shirt, blood on the back of his jacket or head as well as grass stains are conveniently missing. Looks like a pummeling to me. Hell, the officers weren't even wearing gloves which they almost always do when there is blood.
 
droopy1592 said:
The new video evidence shows otherwise. I'm interested in your opinion or spin on the video. Wounds, scrapes, blood all over his shirt, blood on the back of his jacket or head as well as grass stains are conveniently missing. Looks like a pummeling to me. Hell, the officers weren't even wearing gloves which they almost always do when there is blood.
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And considering you are all physicians you know that a CHI from assault + nasal trauma is a GUARANTEED ED visit, even for someone under arrest and there was none, whether with transport via EMS or PD.
I would like that explained Blade or did someone alter the trusty Sanford police recording. Your "close sources" are full of ****.
And for the record, I am not some die hard demanding retribution for a "hate crime." I wish they were both purple. The point is you have some armed Johnson thinking he is Batman, literally, trying to patrol the streets of his yuppie neighborhood. His motivation seemed race base, but that is really beside the point. He instigated an altercation with an unarmed 17 year old while holding a concealed weapon himself. The fact that Martin was black, probably a punk, and was in all sorts of amatuer legal trouble really is beside the point
 
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BLADEMDA said:
I expect that exact testimony by George Zimmerman under oath. So, I don't care whether you believe Fox News the question is whether the jury believes Zimmerman.
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Sooo you're saying that million dollar question is whether a jury will believe Zimmerman's bold face lies?
You are probably right. Too bad it does not make them or you less of a despicable racist.
 
jwk said:
What's hard to take seriously are Al, Jesse, and Screwy Louie. Any time any one of those three shows up, facts go out the window, and it becomes all about them. You do realize that racism goes both ways right? Or are you like the aforementioned "ministers" who think it's only possible to have white on black racism and not the other way around?
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This is a quote taken from a web site discussing the murder of a white marine Sgt. and his black wife:

"The question is can black people be racist, of course. I'm a black man and my father was a racist. He was raised in the south when a lot of crap was going down against blacks. After being drafted in the Army, he settled in Michigan. My father worked hard in the company and did well. Even though he worked with a lot of white people he never got over the treatment, he got in the south, my father remained a racist, he flat out hated white people. Our nation has changed a lot since then but if you listen to, so called black leaders like Al Sharpton, Jesse Jackson Rev. Wright and Minister Farrakhan, you would think they are still stuck in the sixties. They pull this to keep their own control over black people. Martin Luther King Jr. would be ashamed of how these guys handle themselves. Today, any american can be whatever they want, the opportunities are there. Stop calling yourself a victim, get of your butt and get something done.
Now for these racist marines that killed the sargeant because he was married to a black woman. If you say it wasn't race based is bulls--t. They tried to cover it up by writing N---lover on the wall as if a white racist committed the crime. I don't believe in hate crimes law but I do believe in the law. The law, is going after the death penalty, how much more can a hate crime law give them, another death penalty? Thats why hate crime laws are rediculous. Hate crime is a feel good thing for liberals. Again, I say just use the law on the books to get these black racist murderers."

Goldie
 
MiracleforMD said:
Sooo you're saying that million dollar question is whether a jury will believe Zimmerman's bold face lies?
You are probably right. Too bad it does not make them or you less of a despicable racist.
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Neither Zimmerman nor I am racists. You, on the other hand, are despicable for making such accusations without any proof.

http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/29/police-surveillance-video-of-zimmerman-may-show-head-injury/

Take a look at the above link. It's simply despicable to use the Racist term when there is ample evidence to the contrary. Anyone doing so should be banned from SDN.
 
BLADEMDA said:
Neither Zimmerman nor I am racists. You, on the other hand, are despicable for making such accusations without any proof.
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I did not think you were until reading your posts in this thread. I think your opinions and views are much more transparent than you think.

And I'm not even comment on calling Zimmerman racist being appropiate, because...wow.
 
MiracleforMD said:
I did not think you were until reading your posts in this thread. I think your opinions and views are much more transparent than you think.

And I'm not even comment on calling Zimmerman racist being appropiate, because...wow.
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The Orlando Sentinel, citing anonymous sources, has reported that Martin grabbed Zimmerman’s head and banged it several times against the sidewalk. A statement from Sanford police said the newspaper’s story was “consistent” with evidence turned over to prosecutors.
 
vector2 said:
Blade conveniently ignoring the video of Zimmerman appearing unscathed minutes after the so-called "pulverizing"....big surprise
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I'm thinking of 2 words the first of which starts with an F for all you dumb arse liberals who use the term racist for any conservative who challenges your ignorant assumptions about the world:


black teen Trayvon Martin a month ago. (RELATED: Full coverage of the Martin shooting)
“A police surveillance video taken the night that Trayvon Martin was shot dead shows no blood or bruises on George Zimmerman,” ABC News reporter Matt Gutman wrote, noting that Zimmerman told police “he shot Martin after he was punched in the nose, knocked down and had his head slammed into the ground.”
ABC News reported that Zimmerman appears uninjured in the video. But a still image from the video indicates what appears to be a vertical laceration or scar several inches long.
ABC did note that at the 49-second mark in the video, one of the police officers accompanying Zimmerman stops to look at the back of Zimmerman’s head for several seconds. Zimmerman, as ABC News noted, did not visit the emergency room after police interviewed him.
The Orlando Sentinel’s Rene Stutzman reported on March 26 about portions of what Zimmerman told police during that interview.


Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/29/police-surveillance-video-of-zimmerman-may-show-head-injury/#ixzz1qXnep5hw
 
BLADEMDA said:
I'm thinking of 2 words the first of which starts with an F for all you dumb arse liberals who use the term racist for any conservative who challenges your ignorant assumptions about the world:


black teen Trayvon Martin a month ago. (RELATED: Full coverage of the Martin shooting)
“A police surveillance video taken the night that Trayvon Martin was shot dead shows no blood or bruises on George Zimmerman,” ABC News reporter Matt Gutman wrote, noting that Zimmerman told police “he shot Martin after he was punched in the nose, knocked down and had his head slammed into the ground.”
ABC News reported that Zimmerman appears uninjured in the video. But a still image from the video indicates what appears to be a vertical laceration or scar several inches long.
ABC did note that at the 49-second mark in the video, one of the police officers accompanying Zimmerman stops to look at the back of Zimmerman’s head for several seconds. Zimmerman, as ABC News noted, did not visit the emergency room after police interviewed him.
The Orlando Sentinel’s Rene Stutzman reported on March 26 about portions of what Zimmerman told police during that interview.


Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/29/police-surveillance-video-of-zimmerman-may-show-head-injury/#ixzz1qXnep5hw
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Honestly, man this is a whole new side of you. Kind of scary.
 
BLADEMDA said:
I'm thinking of 2 words the first of which starts with an F for all you dumb arse liberals who use the term racist for any conservative who challenges your ignorant assumptions about the world:


black teen Trayvon Martin a month ago. (RELATED: Full coverage of the Martin shooting)
"A police surveillance video taken the night that Trayvon Martin was shot dead shows no blood or bruises on George Zimmerman," ABC News reporter Matt Gutman wrote, noting that Zimmerman told police "he shot Martin after he was punched in the nose, knocked down and had his head slammed into the ground."
ABC News reported that Zimmerman appears uninjured in the video. But a still image from the video indicates what appears to be a vertical laceration or scar several inches long.
ABC did note that at the 49-second mark in the video, one of the police officers accompanying Zimmerman stops to look at the back of Zimmerman's head for several seconds. Zimmerman, as ABC News noted, did not visit the emergency room after police interviewed him.
The Orlando Sentinel's Rene Stutzman reported on March 26 about portions of what Zimmerman told police during that interview.


Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/29/police-surveillance-video-of-zimmerman-may-show-head-injury/#ixzz1qXnep5hw
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Did you even WATCH the video you posted as "evidence"?????. That still image is CLEARLY photoshopped. You can see his head for a good 10 seconds right before the 50 second mark in the video and there is absolutely no "vertical laceration several inches long." And by the way, you are an MD, you know as well as I do that if he has a "vertical laceration several inches long" he is going to the ED. He never did. Your explanation for that, sir?

Except from that ridiculous article: "ABC did note that at the 49-second mark in the video, one of the police officers accompanying Zimmerman stops to look at the back of Zimmerman's head for several seconds. Zimmerman, as ABC News noted, did not visit the emergency room after police interviewed him."

Watch the video. They look for less than 2 seconds. As if he said, "Look at my head." The office did for about 1 second, literally, and probably said, "I don't see anything." If he had a gash or laceration, the office might have taken more than a peak. The article is just leading you with bull **** and you took it hook, line, and sinker.
 
MiracleforMD said:
Did you even WATCH the video you posted as "evidence"?????. That still image is CLEARLY photoshopped. You can see his head for a good 10 seconds right before the 50 second mark in the video and there is absolutely no "vertical laceration several inches long." And by the way, you are an MD, you know as well as I do that if he has a "vertical laceration several inches long" he is going to the ED. He never did. Your explanation for that, sir?

Except from that ridiculous article: "ABC did note that at the 49-second mark in the video, one of the police officers accompanying Zimmerman stops to look at the back of Zimmerman’s head for several seconds. Zimmerman, as ABC News noted, did not visit the emergency room after police interviewed him."

Watch the video. They look for less than 2 seconds. As if he said, "Look at my head." The office did for about 1 second, literally, and probably said, "I don't see anything." If he had a gash or laceration, the office might have taken more than a peak. The article is just leading you with bull **** and you took it hook, line, and sinker.
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This story was reported by ABC news. If you choose to wait for the Grand Jury investigation next week that's reasonable; but, to call people RACISTS and LIARS without any evidence is simply unacceptable.

Let the system play out. The investigation is on-going. Lay off the name calling and accusations.
 
George Zimmerman's dad: Trayvon Martin threatened to kill my son

By Frances Robles The Miami Herald


"I guess everybody would have preferred George be beaten to death," Robert Zimmerman tells a local TV station.
Read more here: http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/29/2720704/george-zimmermans-dad-trayvon.html#storylink=cpy


I don't understand the liberals here on SDN. There is more than enough "reasonable doubt" here to allow the system to do its job. When liberals resort to race baiting tactics you know they have lost the argument.​
 
So you acknowledge that Zimmerman and his dad might (possibly) be complete and utter liars (broken nose, realllly...wheres the ED visit? nose packing? blood on his shirt?) who retrospectively fabricated the severity of his injuries so as to make his reckless behavior look more acceptable. Gotcha.
 
vector2 said:
So you acknowledge that Zimmerman and his dad might (possibly) be complete and utter liars (broken nose, realllly...wheres the ED visit? nose packing? blood on his shirt?) who retrospectively fabricated the severity of his injuries so as to make his reckless behavior look more acceptable. Gotcha.
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Unlike you I'm willing to let the Prosecutor and Grand Jury do their jobs. However, the evidence presented so far leads me to believe George Zimmerman feared for his life and an altercation between Zimmerman and Martin did indeed take place that night.

In my State this means George Zimmerman is a free man and a Jury won't convict him.
As for Civil penalties there won't be any if the Stand Your Ground Law applies in this situation.
 
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vector2 said:
And by do their jobs I guess you mean you're retracting on your bullsht earlier about having some inside source saying Zimmerman got pulverized.
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Zimmerman and his Father both claim that he was indeed pulverized. There was an eye witness who claimed that he saw Trayvon Martin smashing Zimmerman's head into the ground. In my opinion that qualifies as being pulverized.
 
It's looking more like Duke Lacrosse than Amadou Diallo. I initially presumed that the reverse was true. Either way there is a large contingent that would love to see him found guilty no matter the truth. Also a large contingent that would like to see him found innocent no matter the truth.
 
dr doze said:
It's looking more like Duke Lacrosse than Amadou Diallo. I initially presumed that the reverse was true. Either way there is a large contingent that would love to see him found guilty no matter the truth. Also a large contingent that would like to see him found innocent no matter the truth.
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The truth is George pissed off a high strung, short tempered teenager who decided to settle the score with his fists. This led to Zimmerman's self defense with his 9mm.
So, the killing will likely be ruled justifiable on legal grounds but I'm less convinced about the moral one.
 
BLADEMDA said:
Wrong. He did WRONGLY pursue Treyvon but then backed off and went to his SUV.
Treyvon pursued Zimmerman and started beating up on him. Zimmerman was bloody and pinned to the ground while Treyvon pulverized him. Zimmerman was calling for help and not Treyvon. Zimmerman shot Treyvon only as a last ditch effort to keep the teen from literally beating him to death. These facts will come out shortly. The truth will exonerate Zimmerman while the media has already convicted him.
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hmm. This was wrote before this video was released today:

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/martin-bashir/46896424/#46896424
 
vector2 said:
So you acknowledge that Zimmerman and his dad might (possibly) be complete and utter liars... who retrospectively fabricated the severity of his injuries so as to make his reckless behavior look more acceptable. Gotcha.
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I do admit that possibility and I even theorized about how this is a legitimate possibility, but one in which a case can be made for the police following proper protocol in not arresting Zimmerman.

The difference between you and I, apparently, is that I am also open to the possibility that Zimmerman is telling the truth.

The simple fact is that neither you, nor I, nor the lynch mob and circus sideshow screaming for Zimmermans head on a plate have enough details to determine the truth. To have those details released would taint any potential of a case being developed against Zimmerman so all we and the media are left with is pet theories and the media is being irresponsible by promoting a sensationalized version of the story to further inflame racial unrest and disharmony.


vector2 said:
And by do their jobs I guess you mean you're retracting your earlier bullsht about having some inside source saying Zimmerman got pulverized.
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No. The job of the police is to gather all the evidence and determine if it is consistent with the claim of self defense that the suspect is making. If so, then they have to let him go and present their findings to the DA and the grand jury. Not to make a media circus out of it and present their findings to the public. The job of the DA is to determine if charges can be brought and the grand jury makes a determination if the presented facts support a trial.

The media is being irresponsible by supporting the calls for extra judicial remedy (an arrest of Zimmerman at this point).

Why is it so hard for people to understand how this works? Why are people demanding that we forgo due process.

Funny how we now see that in fact Zimmerman WAS handcuffed and taken to the police station after all the media claims to the contrary.

- pod
 
For those of you who think that the injuries are made up (and not a single one of us can say they do or don't exist with any authority), the injuries to Zimmerman will be easily corroborated by the report of the medics who treated him on the scene. The medical report is, of course, covered by HIPPA so I seriously doubt that the media will be able to uncover it prior to the time that the grand jury is convened. To make a determination of the extent of his injuries based on a grainy video after he has been tended to and cleaned up is clearly ridiculous.

I will be willing to bet that there are evidentiary photos of the injuries as well. At least if he had been brought into the PD where I worked, we would have painstakingly documented all injuries by photo and written description

All of this will come out in due time and we will know the truth... it would be irresponsible to release it now.

The conspiracy theorists can go home now.

- pod
 
periopdoc said:
I




The individual right to bear arms is heavily ingrained in our history and our society. What has changed that makes this right a relic of the past? How is the individual right any more dangerous than the right of freedom of speech that can lead men to revolt? How is it more dangerous than a press which is free to mislead the country? And how is it more dangerous than the most dangerous right... the freedom of religion that can convince a man that while his actions may cross the boundaries of natural law, they are in line with a higher law that is neither codified nor appealable?

The individual right to keep and bear arms. One of the least dangerous rights in The Constitution.

- pod
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hahaha. Well spun!

You can't seriously believe that. But that's fine. I respectfully disagree with your opinion.
 
BLADEMDA said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murders_of_Channon_Christian_and_Christopher_Newsom

Another horrific racially motivated rapes and murders. Truly disgusting and evil.
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What was your point by posting these links on this thread anyways. Your not fooling anyone.

But it does raise an interesting question. If four white guys committed this crime on a black couple, do you still think they would receive the same punishment?

Honestly, I don't even think Zimmerman 'alleged' crime was race motivated. But I do think that the way the police department is handling the case is definitely race motivated. To think otherwise is just being very naive.
 
sleepallday said:
hahaha. Well spun!

You can't seriously believe that. But that's fine. I respectfully disagree with your opinion.
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I absolutely believe it with all my heart. Apparently so do these guys


Euripides
The tongue is mightier than the blade.
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Shakespeare (Hamlet)
many wearing rapiers are afraid of goosequills.
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and of course the famous Edward Bulwer-Lytton quote
The pen is mightier than the sword
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Thomas Jefferson, 1796 to Thomas Paine writes something similar.
Go on doing with your pen what in other times was done with the sword.
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Speech and religion have destroyed more men throughout history than the gun. In many cases the gun was used as the instrument, but the person pulling the trigger was led to do so by the words of another. Without speech to lead men into insurrection and war, the instrument of war is powerless. Without a truly free press to uncover and broadcast the actions of a secretive leadership no one will know to take up arms against the oppressor.

If freedom of speech, press and religion are not so dangerous, then why do dictators suppress these rights as strongly as they restrict the right to bear arms?

- pod
 
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Cinclus said:
That video of Zimmerman is too blurry/grainy to be able to see much of anything in detail.
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Disagree with a whole hearted vengeance. I do agree with Arch though. We gotta wait it out. Although this may end up being the next high profile wacky case, regardless of how it ends up, re: OJ, Amadou Diallo.
 
periopdoc said:
Hadn't been posted, thanks. Spike Lee and Roseanne Barr Tweeting the supposed address of Zimmerman's location. Wow, just Wow.

Hope they do the right thing and pay for all the trouble that they have caused.

- pod
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Wow! I guess I can agree with you on something. That and your avatar. The Stig is sick.

But even freedom of speech has its limitations. Just as right to bear arms should too.
 
sleepallday said:
Wow! I guess I can agree with you on something. That and your avatar. The Stig is sick.

But even freedom of speech has its limitations. Just as right to bear arms should too.
Click to expand...

:smack:

For someone so poorly informed, you sure have strong opinions.


There are already limits, and they are far more restrictive than those in effect on speech. This is not a matter of opinion - this is solidly established judicial precedent and case law.

There exists a concept called "scrutiny" which is the standard by which a right may be limited by the government.

In the case of your example (speech) the applicable standard set by the Supreme Court is strict scrutiny. This means that in order to restrict or limit a right, the government MUST prove
1) that there is a "compelling government interest" to regulate the right
2) that the regulation is as "narrowly tailored" as possible
3) that the regulation utilizes the "least restrictive means" to accomplish its goal


A level of scrutiny for regulation of the 2nd Amendment has not yet been set by the Supreme Court, though in the aftermath of Heller/McDonald it is likely in the next 2-5 years a case will reach the Court and a level of scrutiny will be specified. Most of us expect that level of scrutiny to be on par with other civil rights, ie strict. But for now - and for all of our nation's history up to this point - there has been a FAR lower standard for regulation of the right to keep and bear arms.

And this is trivially easy to see and demonstrate. For example,
- the now-expired federal assault weapons ban
- Illinois' refusal to issue carry permits to anyone under any circumstances
- California's current assault weapons ban, magazine laws, waiting period, 1-in-30 law
- New York's gun laws
- Hawaii's gun laws
NONE of which would stand up to strict scrutiny.


Your notion that the right to keep and bear arms is less restricted than the right to free speech is demonstrably false. It is, in fact, the most heavily and arbitrarily restricted one of the first 10 Amendments.
 
periopdoc said:
For those of you who think that the injuries are made up (and not a single one of us can say they do or don't exist with any authority), the injuries to Zimmerman will be easily corroborated by the report of the medics who treated him on the scene. The medical report is, of course, covered by HIPPA so I seriously doubt that the media will be able to uncover it prior to the time that the grand jury is convened. To make a determination of the extent of his injuries based on a grainy video after he has been tended to and cleaned up is clearly ridiculous.

I will be willing to bet that there are evidentiary photos of the injuries as well. At least if he had been brought into the PD where I worked, we would have painstakingly documented all injuries by photo and written description

All of this will come out in due time and we will know the truth... it would be irresponsible to release it now.

The conspiracy theorists can go home now.

- pod
Click to expand...

So I guess they cleaned the blood off of his shirt and grass stains off of his jeans and jacket. They must have done it all in ten minutes since it is time stamped 37 minutes after the incident. Medics fixed his nose too since he hasnt required any real medical attention. It wouldn't be the first time Sanford police phonied up some evidence.
 
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