Starting Over

[Dalteparin]

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Let me just reiterate. The classes I failed are pass/fail courses. The I did not FAIL any graded pharmaceutics courses.

But by your own admission, you got C's in the classes you did pass. One or two C's has no big deal; everyone can have a lousy exam that tanks their grade. A long string of C's means that the person either doesn't understand the material or doesn't care enough to do more than squeak by. Either way, that's not somebody I want as my pharmacist or as a colleague. You're not a bad person; pharmacy just isn't for you. Sorry.

I'm also really sorry you're dealing with this at this point in your schooling and I think schools do a HUGE disservice to students not to dismiss them earlier.

I agree with this. I really do feel bad for you; the school may have thought they were doing you a favor, but they've actually wasted a lot of your time and money.

 

[Ackj]

Let's see:

1. New medical resident asks if he can run sterile water* through a patients IV. You say yes. Patient develops hemolysis and dies.

2. Doctor wants to know if he can give vincristine intrathecally. You say yes. The vincristine destroys the patient's central nervous system. The patient dies.

3. MD starts a patient on warfarin when he's already taking simvastatin 80 mg daily. You don't tell the MD about the drug interaction so he doesn't monitor the patient closely. The patient's INR is supratherapeutic, he falls and hits his head, has an ICH and dies.

4. MD says, "This patient overdosed on Tylenol 12 hours ago. Do we still need to check a level?" You say no. The patient does not receive Acetadote, and as a result he dies from liver failure.

YES, AS A PHARMACIST YOU CAN KILL SOMEONE. If you haven't learned that by now, you do not deserve to wear that white coat.

*may sound farfetched but it actually happened to a pharmacist friend of
mine... luckily he gave the resident the correct info.

These are actually all poor scenarios based on the fact that it's an MD asking in the first place, and they should probably know the answers already. Better examples would be a patient asking you questions, or receiving an rx that interacts but dispensing anyway, giving wrong drug, wrong dose, etc. Those are more pharmacist-related problems, imo.

 

[Ackj]

But by your own admission, you got C's in the classes you did pass. One or two C's has no big deal; everyone can have a lousy exam that tanks their grade. A long string of C's means that the person either doesn't understand the material or doesn't care enough to do more than squeak by. Either way, that's not somebody I want as my pharmacist or as a colleague. You're not a bad person; pharmacy just isn't for you. Sorry.

But... but... C = Pharm.D.... right guys?



Guys? 🙁

 

[LazyMooch]

But... but... C = Pharm.D.... right guys?



Guys? 🙁

Oh, The Apathetic Pharmacist.

 

[xtsukiyox]

Time out, time out.

Startingover, if you're going to fight this, do it. Don't let some lawyer & some pharmacists, pharmacy students, & a handful of pre-pharms you're talking to on the internet discourage you. You asked for an opinion - that doesn't mean you're going to like it, but neither does it mean that you're going to get anyone whose opinion matters to your direct situation to weigh in, either.

You've got an uphill battle, that is true. But you knew that going in, didn't you?

Sit down with a live lawyer - this is definitely worth $275, even if you have to beg it.

Talk to the associate dean, dean of students, president, whomever you can get to listen. If they say no, how are you worse off? Perhaps you just influenced someone who can help you get an appeal with the committee (if that exists). Keep track of who you talk to, when, and what they said. Definitely utilize the ombuds office.

Most of all, do you have the support and treatment you need now? You mentioned depression - I can only imagine this stress is doing a number on you. Take care of yourself.

(Begin opinion section: )
The real shame here to me is that they decided to allow Startingover to continue racking up charges up until the end, instead of making a more timely decision (if they could have). Yeah, some people wash out of pharmacy school, but how exactly do you go picking up the pieces with a $150,000 monkey on your back?

 

[chemguy79]

Oh I have nothing else to hide and I am definitely in the process of hiring a lawyer. I spent the whole day emailing lawyers (~20 or so) and seeking help. Most of them don't even handle my case! At this point, I am willing to spend some money on an initial consultation and see if I have a case. I am just losing confidence because they are not violating their school policy and I am fighting against a STATE school. I was just looking for more advice and maybe someone would something anything specific to offer. I guess I am here for emotional support as well. I am sorry.. its just that this is a VERY DIFFICULT situation for me.

After hearing what my school told me, I don't think there is anything else I couldn't handle to hear so all opinion is appreciated! (postive or negative)

Given that most of us haven't been through this situation, we can only offer so much advice. owlegrad is completely on point. You should expect to shell out some cash to fight this, period.

It will be difficult to find someone to do this pro-bono and I'd be shocked if you'll ever find someone who is willing to do this. Why? The potential "settlement" will be allowing you to continue in the program. Therefore, what would a lawyer make from this outside of billing you for hours to develop a case? His profit will come from you.

Besides, from my limited experience with law ... Lawyers who give free consultations are usually for vehicular incidents where they are fully aware that they'll make their money back after the fact. In your case, there is minimal (if any) monetary compensation that they can gain from your case. Therefore, expect to shell out some bucks (big bucks, potentially) if you want to have your degree.

 

[Dalteparin]

These are actually all poor scenarios based on the fact that it's an MD asking in the first place, and they should probably know the answers already. Better examples would be a patient asking you questions, or receiving an rx that interacts but dispensing anyway, giving wrong drug, wrong dose, etc. Those are more pharmacist-related problems, imo.

You would be surprised how much some MDs don't know. 🙂 Besides, I work in a hospital, so hospital-based scenarios with an MD asking questions were the first things that popped into my head.

 

[ucrx]

You would be surprised how much some MDs don't know. 🙂 Besides, I work in a hospital, so hospital-based scenarios with an MD asking questions were the first things that popped into my head.

It's hard for me to come up with community scenarios anymore, and I've only been out of it 1 1/2 years. These are definitely potential scenarios for a hospital based pharmacist. I taught an NP about DVT prophylaxis Friday- she had no idea why it was important or what we use for it! You get crazy questions pretty frequently in hospital. And I remember crazy physician and patient questions in retail too. Another important thing in retail is knowing which alerts are actually important and which can be bypassed.

OP, why does it matter that the courses were pass/fail? You still need a passing grade.

 

[pharmex]

I agree with an earlier post that you should not let anybody in this forum affect your decision. You ask for an opinion and everybody will give a variety of opinions. Some will agree some disagree. But i don't think you should be dismissed from the school. You make it this far so you are pretty smart. Fight on. And if you lose, that's ok because 10 years later you don't regret it. Exhaust all your options.

 

[streetpreacher]

These are actually all poor scenarios based on the fact that it's an MD asking in the first place, and they should probably know the answers already. Better examples would be a patient asking you questions, or receiving an rx that interacts but dispensing anyway, giving wrong drug, wrong dose, etc. Those are more pharmacist-related problems, imo.

Just wanted to say that these are very common questions, and I get them on a daily basis when I work in hospitals.

As for the topic... This sounds fairly hopeless and I'm not sure how much a lawyer could do for you, however you don't really have a lot of options. The lawyer route seems just as legitimate as starting over from scratch, and financially speaking I would imagine it would be similar. The only benefit of the lawyer route would be the shortened time frame, but even then I'm not sure how much shorter it would be.

Hope everything works out for you, that is a tough situation. Hang in there, nothing is ever as bad as it seems.

 

[Ndcyciv]

I am reading this and just shaking my head here. As a pharmacist and one that has been teaching new grads coming into a hospital pharmacy, I just don't see how you have a chance to practice and grasp everything if you keep blaming everything on a "learning disability".

I went to an accelerated school. Got diagnosed with a rare disease my first year of pharmacy school that caused me to be in the hospital for almost a month of a quarter, I went blind for a bit, and yet I still managed to graduate with a 3.0 GPA. It's not that I managed, I worked really hard too. I was in financial ruin due to my hospital visits and unable to work during the time I was sick. My animals ate sometimes when I couldn't. My apartment almost burned down by arson on two occasions and I was forced to move. Everything was stacked against me my first year, but I made a decision of what I wanted and went for it!

I just don't know where you would fit in pharmacy, because I can't see putting patients at risk with the attitude of "if I don't pass the first time, I can try again" or "I suddenly developed a learning disability AFTER pharmacy school acceptance". People die on the first attempt if mistakes are made. There are no redoes!

I've been through my share of disliking the profession to where I wanted to go to medical school, but decided this is where I want to be. I am even going back to school for a Master's (which I can tell you is not easier the 2nd time around). If you make a public case of this, it will make our profession look even more ignorant.

I am sorry you didn't do well, but it is not my fault, but your own. You can try to plead your case with the school, but even seasoned, practicing lawyers say you don't have a legal case.

 

[nampa1]

A couple of things. Failing twice during the didactic portion of pharmacy school is a big deal. And one of the failures was after you received accomodations for your learning disability. I am sure the committee members took that into account when they reviewed your case. And many educators are skeptical of learning disabilities that are only just diagnosed in professional school, particularly in someone who has excelled academically up to that point. Just stating a fact. The skepticism is there.

Now on to the rotation that you failed. How much did you miss? How many call ins? How late were you and how often? Those are BIG deals for me as a preceptor. I am much more likely to give a marginal student a break if he is motivated, professional and really tries hard. Someone who is marginal and gives the appearance of not caring (slacks off, doesn't show, is late) doesn't have much of a chance with me.

The places you might look for relief (in my opinion) are the "6 year policy" and any policy your school has about remediating rotations. I agree with whomever said you need to be going to talk to anyone and everyone at your school, from your advisor, your academic affairs people, your Dean of Students up to the Dean of the College. Exhaust your options before giving up.

What would you consider a marginal student?

 

[All4MyDaughter]

What would you consider a marginal student?

Is this a trick question?

 

[cuedee]

Oh I have nothing else to hide and I am definitely in the process of hiring a lawyer. I spent the whole day emailing lawyers (~20 or so) and seeking help. Most of them don't even handle my case! At this point, I am willing to spend some money on an initial consultation and see if I have a case. I am just losing confidence because they are not violating their school policy and I am fighting against a STATE school. I was just looking for more advice and maybe someone would something anything specific to offer. I guess I am here for emotional support as well. I am sorry.. its just that this is a VERY DIFFICULT situation for me.

After hearing what my school told me, I don't think there is anything else I couldn't handle to hear so all opinion is appreciated! (postive or negative)

I'm sorry to hear about your troubles. You definitely need a lawyer. Keep calling until you find one. I don't know about emailing lawyers. They may not be as free with their advice in writing as they are on the phone. As far as money, you must be hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt and this one rotation is standing in the way of you repaying that debt. If you have to beg your 90 y.o. grandma living on a fixed income or borrow from the guy who wears gold chains with a windbreaker for a lawyer, then do it. But you should be able to find a lawyer who will collect after you win your suit.*

Your preceptor is on the hook as well as your school. The preceptor's job is to evaluate you. He probably signed a contract with the school stating this. He is obligated to assign a grade and if he cannot for whatever reason then your school is obligated to send you on another rotation. Maybe you should contact contract lawyers because this sounds like breach of contract.

Do you know anyone in the community with influence (such as a big donator, works at a place that gives lots of money) at the pharmacy school or the university?

*A good way to get lawyers interested in your case is to involve money. Perhaps, you and your lawyer could create a plan of action. For instance, if the school does not fulfill their contractual obligation to send you on another rotation, then sue them for tuition and future lost income. You still may have to pay a lawyer because your first goal is a non-monetary gain.

You must fight tooth and nail for your pharmD. Good luck.

 

[Kansas Pharmer]

I'm sorry to hear about your troubles. You definitely need a lawyer. Keep calling until you find one. I don't know about emailing lawyers. They may not be as free with their advice in writing as they are on the phone. As far as money, you must be hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt and this one rotation is standing in the way of you repaying that debt. If you have to beg your 90 y.o. grandma living on a fixed income or borrow from the guy who wears gold chains with a windbreaker for a lawyer, then do it. But you should be able to find a lawyer who will collect after you win your suit.*

Your preceptor is on the hook as well as your school. The preceptor's job is to evaluate you. He probably signed a contract with the school stating this. He is obligated to assign a grade and if he cannot for whatever reason then your school is obligated to send you on another rotation. Maybe you should contact contract lawyers because this sounds like breach of contract.

Do you know anyone in the community with influence (such as a big donator, works at a place that gives lots of money) at the pharmacy school or the university?

*A good way to get lawyers interested in your case is to involve money. Perhaps, you and your lawyer could create a plan of action. For instance, if the school does fulfill their contractual obligation to send you on another rotation, then sue them for tuition and future lost income. You still may have to pay a lawyer because your first goal is a non-monetary gain.

You must fight tooth and nail for your pharmD. Good luck.

This is one of the biggest problems in the US today. ENTITLEMENT I think I got cheated and they owe me. Why cant anyone just man up and admit they screwed up, learn from it, and then move on.

Get a lawyer, get a lawyer, get a lawyer. I just cannot believe that there is a glut of lawyers with all the people thinking that they can sue about anything...

 

[UofK]

I personally know a student who was kicked out of UK's Pharmacy School as a PY2, but was allowed to continue where he left off at Sullivan.

Ironically, I'm an undergraduate taking Ecology, and my lab partner also was kicked out of UK (after he had completed his third year) for circumstances that honestly were beyond his control based on the story he described to me, and he is in the process of trying to appeal the decision / apply to another school.

edit: just to give a bit of background for why I think my lab partner was shafted, given, he was put on academic probation his second year for getting a D in a class that you were allowed to get a D in. Granted, this is a student that had a 4.0 undergrad GPA, and a 4.0 their first year in pharmacy school. What finally put the nail in the coffin was that he commutes approximately 40 minutes to class each day (nowhere near as bad as my 1 hour drive to, then 1 hour drive back, but still...), and their was a terrible ice storm that was too dangerous to even go out in. I remember because I left 2 hours early to make it to my physics class that day and I ended up showing up with 5 minutes left in class, then had to turn around and make a 3 hour drive home (yeah F*** the UK administration for not calling that day). Well, my lab partner got a 0 for the lab because he didn't show up. He had a 78% in the class before the 0, but the 0 dropped his grade to a 68%, which meant that he got another D, and thus got the boot.

The crazy thing is, I'm pretty sure that he was put on academic probation because the first D he received was due to showing up to a lab like 1 or two minutes late, and getting a 0 for that day also, so it's not like he was an idiot and doing poorly on the exams, it was logistical bull **** that he didn't get any slack for. I was quite shocked when he told me this as I would have expected a professional school to be more lenient / understanding of personal situations, but apparently all of that stuff they tell you in those undergrad prepharm meetings is BS.

 

[Hello2011]

I personally know a student who was kicked out of UK's Pharmacy School as a PY2, but was allowed to continue where he left off at Sullivan.

Ironically, I'm an undergraduate taking Ecology, and my lab partner also was kicked out of UK (after he had completed his third year) for circumstances that honestly were beyond his control based on the story he described to me, and he is in the process of trying to appeal the decision / apply to another school.

What was his situation?

 

[LazyMooch]

This is one of the biggest problems in the US today. ENTITLEMENT I think I got cheated and they owe me. Why cant anyone just man up and admit they screwed up, learn from it, and then move on.

Get a lawyer, get a lawyer, get a lawyer. I just cannot believe that there is a glut of lawyers with all the people thinking that they can sue about anything...

I agree, but you must admit that this is do or die for this guy. I would try every dirty, cheap trick possible in his position. Minority status, mental health condition, and even trumped up sexual misconduct wouldn't be off the table if I were going to be financially murdered.

You can't wipe away student debt and restart like you could in the old days.

 

[xtsukiyox]

This is one of the biggest problems in the US today. ENTITLEMENT I think I got cheated and they owe me. Why cant anyone just man up and admit they screwed up, learn from it, and then move on.

Get a lawyer, get a lawyer, get a lawyer. I just cannot believe that there is a glut of lawyers with all the people thinking that they can sue about anything...

While I tend to agree with your sentiment in the first paragraph, I believe the OP's question wasn't "should I do this," but "how do I do this." He's committed to trying and, honestly, is going to be up a creek in debt if it doesn't work.

I hear depression in his posts - the problem with depression is sometimes even if you have to do something, it grabs negativity & uses it as a source of demotivation. Even if it's stupid negativity. Hence my "try, try again" posts. People can be cruel.

 

[Kansas Pharmer]

While I tend to agree with your sentiment in the first paragraph, I believe the OP's question wasn't "should I do this," but "how do I do this." He's committed to trying and, honestly, is going to be up a creek in debt if it doesn't work.

I hear depression in his posts - the problem with depression is sometimes even if you have to do something, it grabs negativity & uses it as a source of demotivation. Even if it's stupid negativity. Hence my "try, try again" posts. People can be cruel.

I agree with you. I guess I should have quantified my statement about entitlement. It was actually directed at all the posters whose first solution was to call a lawyer. All other less formal remedies should be tried before a lawyer is involved (as I had suggested earlier in this thread).

Unfortunately, the lack of laws stopping frivolous lawsuits and health care providers doing a continual CYA is one of the big reasons that health care is so expensive. Ex: I know a general OB/GYN that is one of the best in the area and he has to pay almost 40k a year just in malpractice insurance.

 

[Sparda29]

Sooo yeah. Is this guy screwed from a financial standpoint? If OP took out loans for those years of school, and is now dismissed, does the OP get ****ed by the loans now?

 

[cycloketocaine]

Sooo yeah. Is this guy screwed from a financial standpoint? If OP took out loans for those years of school, and is now dismissed, does the OP get ****ed by the loans now?

Yes, this happened to a guy in my class. He got in some big trouble, and they revoked his intern license the day before graduation. Now he's stuck with six figures of debt and no degree.

 

[LazyMooch]

Yes, this happened to a guy in my class. He got in some big trouble, and they revoked his intern license the day before graduation. Now he's stuck with six figures of debt and no degree.

Ouch. Six figs of debt is no bueno.

 

[spacecowgirl]

I suppose it's not very different from a doctor losing their license or a lawyer getting disbarred. All of your financial obligations don't go away - student loans, mortgage, car payments, ugh. Sucks.

 

[startingover11]

I am still fighting the uphill battle but it looks a little bit more promising...

 

[startingover11]

While I tend to agree with your sentiment in the first paragraph, I believe the OP's question wasn't "should I do this," but "how do I do this." He's committed to trying and, honestly, is going to be up a creek in debt if it doesn't work.

I hear depression in his posts - the problem with depression is sometimes even if you have to do something, it grabs negativity & uses it as a source of demotivation. Even if it's stupid negativity. Hence my "try, try again" posts. People can be cruel.

Thank you for your support and understanding. Depression did have a detrimental impact on me.

 

[KARM12]

Whoa ...I totally missed this thread the first time around...

Why is it always the school's fault?

This guy was given mutliple chances and was accomidated for his disability. He said himself he failed because he was unprofessional and unmotivated on rotations...not for academic reasons or those related to his disability.

This story is also shotty. He said he was diagnosed with the disability after 2 yrs of pharm school. But in a later post he said he was getting an accomidation in undergrad... The school cannot be held accountable for those 2 yrs because you did not ask for an accomidation.

Seriously, I hope you never become a pharmacist.

 

[eagleface]

Whoa ...I totally missed this thread the first time around...

Why is it always the school's fault?

This guy was given mutliple chances and was accomidated for his disability. He said himself he failed because he was unprofessional and unmotivated on rotations...not for academic reasons or those related to his disability.

This story is also shotty. He said he was diagnosed with the disability after 2 yrs of pharm school. But in a later post he said he was getting an accomidation in undergrad... The school cannot be held accountable for those 2 yrs because you did not ask for an accomidation.

Seriously, I hope you never become a pharmacist.

The story is inconsistent and there are things he's probably not telling us, but I sympathize. I don't sympathize with the plight, but rather with the fact that he isn't good enough yet.

I've struggled academically due to disability/illness, but I can't ever let that excuse or substitute for poor performance. An adverse effect isn't going to go away because I have problems. You need to make yourself better able handle the work and convince faculty members of your turnaround.

So ask yourself; do you really want to be a pharmacist? You might be able to make more money elsewhere, with less work.

 

[Dalteparin]

I am still fighting the uphill battle but it looks a little bit more promising...

If they do let you back in, will you go back to rotations or will you repeat some of the classes? I hope it's the latter.