Stop accrediting the new schools

[FutureCTDoc]

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Osteopathic medicine is threatened. Not by the AMA, the government or HMOs; rather it runs the risk of implosion. The continuing accreditation of branch campuses and new schools is having a negative impact on this generation of medical students. There is no need or reason to open more medical schools unless people plan on increasing the number of residency spots accordingly. Newer osteopathic colleges of medicine are oftentimes freestanding or affiliated with smaller colleges or health sciences universities. New medical schools, if they are to be opened, need to contribute basic and applied research to the body of knowledge. Something that few of these schools do in any meaningful way.
While the lack of scholarship is a pressing issue to me, more students are likely to be effected by the lack of increased residency slots. Fewer spots leads to more competition for less desirable fields. More students also decrease geographic choice and choice of specialties. As students it is imperative that we lobby COCA and the AOA to stop supporting these new schools.

 

[Spleenic]

Whoa

 

[DbDan]

Easy there kid... Fact of the matter is MD schools are expanding just as rapidly as DO programs. While teaching hospitals may be in short supply, many DO students come out trained fine for entrance into residency. If you want to lobby to someone, lobby to medicare funding to open more residency spots, not for schools to stop expanding. If DO schools stop, MDs will continue and they will flood the residency positions anyway

 

[FutureCTDoc]

Easy there kid... Fact of the matter is MD schools are expanding just as rapidly as DO programs. While teaching hospitals may be in short supply, many DO students come out trained fine for entrance into residency. If you want to lobby to someone, lobby to medicare funding to open more residency spots, not for schools to stop expanding. If DO schools stop, MDs will continue and they will flood the residency positions anyway

I don't want more residency positions, I want fewer with no FMG access to them. Fewer physicians competing for the same amount dollar wise. The MD schools that are going to open are, with only 1 exception, affiliated with research institutions.

 

[apumic]

OP, it sounds to me like you speak without any real knowledge of the situation. Your post boasts ignorance of the physician shortage. Yes, it might create some competition, but since when was that a bad thing? Now, if schools are being established w/o the ability properly train their students or are being accredited without proper review, that's a different issue altogether; however, all estimates I have seen indicate an enormous need for an increase in physician output, not a decrease or even a deceleration in the increase.

 

[DbDan]

.... I'm confused now..... 😕

Osteopathic medicine is threatened. Not by the AMA, the government or HMOs; rather it runs the risk of implosion. The continuing accreditation of branch campuses and new schools is having a negative impact on this generation of medical students. There is no need or reason to open more medical schools unless people plan on increasing the number of residency spots accordingly. Newer osteopathic colleges of medicine are oftentimes freestanding or affiliated with smaller colleges or health sciences universities. New medical schools, if they are to be opened, need to contribute basic and applied research to the body of knowledge. Something that few of these schools do in any meaningful way.
While the lack of scholarship is a pressing issue to me, more students are likely to be effected by the lack of increased residency slots. Fewer spots leads to more competition for less desirable fields. More students also decrease geographic choice and choice of specialties. As students it is imperative that we lobby COCA and the AOA to stop supporting these new schools.

I don't want more residency positions, I want fewer with no FMG access to them. Fewer physicians competing for the same amount dollar wise. The MD schools that are going to open are, with only 1 exception, affiliated with research institutions.

I'd like to know a few things. First, how is this expansion having a negative effect on this generation of medical students? Is there a deficiency in their training? not that i've seen. Is there some other major issue with a freestanding medical school? (of which I've seen almost none, virtually all offer other health science programs)

What, in your opinion, constitutes contributing to the basic body of knowledge? Do DO students not get to do research? Where are you looking that that is occurring? Lack of scholarship? What in your mind constitutes a lack of scholarship? Even new DO schools are training well qualified physicians who will go on to accomplish varying things in the field of medicine. LECOM-B, a freestanding school with an irregular cirriculum and no on campus research that i'm aware of, trains physicians who are scoring some of the best scores on the board exams 3 years running of which 100% passed.

You say you want more competition in residencies and don't want to open more, yet you say if expansion should continue, residencies should expand accordingly. You say that these new institutions should contribute to the general body of knowledge? How about training competent physicians who will perform duties IN the less desirable specialties. How about physicians who will care about patients rather then see them as a research project? There are a surplus of PhD students who are contributing unbelievable amounts of information to the "general body of knowledge" as you refer to it. There isn't even enough room in academia for all of those graduates.

I really don't see your argument frankly. If you want to lay out some logical reasoning for what you think is occurring that is fine but back of your statements with facts and logical reasoning rather than spouting off that something needs to be done to "fix" a system that is trying to train physicians to meet a need.

 

[DbDan]

OP, it sounds to me like you speak without any real knowledge of the situation. Your post boasts ignorance of the physician shortage. Yes, it might create some competition, but since when was that a bad thing? Now, if schools are being established w/o the ability properly train their students or are being accredited without proper review, that's a different issue altogether; however, all estimates I have seen indicate an enormous need for an increase in physician output, not a decrease or even a deceleration in the increase.

This man speaks the truth. I also just noticed that you are still 3 years away from your BS in a BS/DO program? You have some time, get some more experience before jumping to such bold conclusions.

 

[FutureCTDoc]

OP, it sounds to me like you speak without any real knowledge of the situation. Your post boasts ignorance of the physician shortage. Yes, it might create some competition, but since when was that a bad thing? Now, if schools are being established w/o the ability properly train their students or are being accredited without proper review, that's a different issue altogether; however, all estimates I have seen indicate an enormous need for an increase in physician output, not a decrease or even a deceleration in the increase.

By decreasing the number of new physicians, less care is delivered and less cost is incurred. The "shortage" is less about the total number of physicians as the relatively few in some specialties. Path and nuclear medicine grads have difficulty finding jobs. Most new schools lack either a university hospital or major affiliates. Most newer schools with few exceptions are on the wrong side of the median for both GPA and MCAT, while they are not the be all and end all, they are the best metric for comparing students from various medical schools.

 

[FutureCTDoc]

.... I'm confused now..... 😕





I'd like to know a few things. First, how is this expansion having a negative effect on this generation of medical students? Is there a deficiency in their training? not that i've seen. Is there some other major issue with a freestanding medical school? (of which I've seen almost none, virtually all offer other health science programs)

What, in your opinion, constitutes contributing to the basic body of knowledge? Do DO students not get to do research? Where are you looking that that is occurring? Lack of scholarship? What in your mind constitutes a lack of scholarship? Even new DO schools are training well qualified physicians who will go on to accomplish varying things in the field of medicine. LECOM-B, a freestanding school with an irregular cirriculum and no on campus research that i'm aware of, trains physicians who are scoring some of the best scores on the board exams 3 years running of which 100% passed.

You say you want more competition in residencies and don't want to open more, yet you say if expansion should continue, residencies should expand accordingly. You say that these new institutions should contribute to the general body of knowledge? How about training competent physicians who will perform duties IN the less desirable specialties. How about physicians who will care about patients rather then see them as a research project? There are a surplus of PhD students who are contributing unbelievable amounts of information to the "general body of knowledge" as you refer to it. There isn't even enough room in academia for all of those graduates.

I really don't see your argument frankly. If you want to lay out some logical reasoning for what you think is occurring that is fine but back of your statements with facts and logical reasoning rather than spouting off that something needs to be done to "fix" a system that is trying to train physicians to meet a need.

By freestanding medical school I mean those lacking a University affiliate.

As to research DOs aren't doing the same caliber of research as a group. DO schools get less NIH funding and when I think of top research institutions they are all allopathic. Most DO research that I have seen is clinical and low impact. Very few DO schools have joint Ph.D. programs to contribute physician-scientists.

 

[DbDan]

By freestanding medical school I mean those lacking a University affiliate.

As to research DOs aren't doing the same caliber of research as a group. DO schools get less NIH funding and when I think of top research institutions they are all allopathic. Most DO research that I have seen is clinical and low impact. Very few DO schools have joint Ph.D. programs to contribute physician-scientists.

What are you even talking about... why do we need every physician to be a physician scientist? Some people wish to go into medicine to be a CLINICIAN not a researcher... You still didn't address the point of what I said. You don't lay out any facts or even relevant reasons for issuing a cease and desist order on DO school expansion. NIH funding is limited and generally goes to well established schools. DO schools are relatively new compared to "top" research institutions.

Furthermore, DO schools are training students to be well rounded and competent physicians. If you want to badly to be a scientist go to an MD/PhD program or find a program that has a DO/PhD.... wtf

 

[MedicinaeDoctor]

This man speaks the truth. I also just noticed that you are still 3 years away from your BS in a BS/DO program? You have some time, get some more experience before jumping to such bold conclusions.

so true.

 

[FutureCTDoc]

This man speaks the truth. I also just noticed that you are still 3 years away from your BS in a BS/DO program? You have some time, get some more experience before jumping to such bold conclusions.

That's kind of like the pot calling the kettle black. Your status is premedical.

 

[DJack]

That's kind of like the pot calling the kettle black. Your status is premedical.

... so is yours? And I don't think that "status" on SDN is a good indicator of knowledge.

To me, the bottom line is that we need more physicians- whether they are DO or MD. With this new healthcare bill, millions more Americans have health insurance; that means we need more doctors.

As far as I am concerned, as long as the schools have a good ability to get students to become licensed physicians (which we desperately need- esp. in some parts of the country), I say go with it.

 

[DbDan]

That's kind of like the pot calling the kettle black. Your status is premedical.

Because status on a forum really dictates knowledge or experience 🙄 I've worked in healthcare (see worked, not volunteered or shadowed) for a couple of years now as well as already have my degree. You have just begun your undergraduate studies and are still 3 years from even beginning school. There are others who are on here as "pre-medical" who have worked as RNs for years, worked in various other healthcare professions and are 35+, should their experience based opinion or knowledge be outweighed by someone who sets their status on a forum to "medical student" who has done little more than a few hundred hours of volunteering?

Again, what is your obsession with physician scientists, you failed to address my question. What is wrong with being a clinician? Are you so elitist to believe that every doctor should also have PhD after his name and conduct research?

Give me a break kid. Get some more experience actually working in the field and getting a feel for what goes on before spouting off about schools not training research based physicians. Not all of us want to work primarily in a lab or even in clinical research. Some of us want to go to med school to actually see the patients as patients, not research subjects.

 

[Dr Yiot]

dont waste your breath guys. I have seen some of this kids posts and he does nothing but spew negativity.

 

[DbDan]

dont waste your breath guys. I have seen some of this kids posts and he does nothing but spew negativity.

It looks that way. I'm going to go ahead and end my commentary in this thread until he provides a compelling reason for why every school must present the option of research for the sake of becoming a research/physician scientist. I'm tired of speaking to someone who refuses to acknowledge flaws in their opinions. Its just going to turn into less of a commentary on lack of research and more and more into a senseless argument

Oh and in before the obligatory "my dad is an MD and I've been around doctors my whole life" commentary that has little to no bearing on the topic at hand.

 

[Dr Yiot]

amen brotha, preach on....preach😀

 

[UnlikelyDoc]

As to research DOs aren't doing the same caliber of research as a group.

This is inflammatory. Cite your source please.

Path and nuclear medicine grads have difficulty finding jobs. Most new schools lack either a university hospital or major affiliates. Most newer schools with few exceptions are on the wrong side of the median for both GPA and MCAT, while they are not the be all and end all, they are the best metric for comparing students from various medical schools.

Cite your source please.

I don't want more residency positions, I want fewer with no FMG access to them. Fewer physicians competing for the same amount dollar wise. The MD schools that are going to open are, with only 1 exception, affiliated with research institutions.

You make your motivation clear here. Physician shortage + smaller physician pool = More money for you at the expense of what?

Osteopathic medicine is threatened. Not by the AMA, the government or HMOs; rather it runs the risk of implosion. The continuing accreditation of branch campuses and new schools is having a negative impact on this generation of medical students. There is no need or reason to open more medical schools unless people plan on increasing the number of residency spots accordingly. Newer osteopathic colleges of medicine are oftentimes freestanding or affiliated with smaller colleges or health sciences universities. New medical schools, if they are to be opened, need to contribute basic and applied research to the body of knowledge. Something that few of these schools do in any meaningful way.
While the lack of scholarship is a pressing issue to me, more students are likely to be effected by the lack of increased residency slots. Fewer spots leads to more competition for less desirable fields. More students also decrease geographic choice and choice of specialties. As students it is imperative that we lobby COCA and the AOA to stop supporting these new schools.

Please cite one credible source. Btw, competition might be bad for individual students, but it could be argued that it is good for healthcare overall. Most would agree that this benefit has greater overlap with the needs of the planet. Your crusade while impassioned, is clearly misguided.

 

[Skippygonenuts]

Haha oral dysentery. good $h!t! Maybe that's not the best choice of words.

Osteo med is not threatened. The only thing threatened is your wallet.

Regardless, you sound like you should be tryin to go for an MD program, that attitude is gonna get ur head chewed off in the osteo world but hey, what do I know.

Best of luck

 

[JaggerPlate]

Alright guys .... I don't want to cause WW III here, but I'm going to back FutureCT for a sec:

1. He's not really saying anything crazy (at the core). DO schools are expanding at a rapid rate and unfortunately, residency spots are not expanding with them. This means that more and more DO students are DEPENDING on ACGME residencies. This is is the midst of MD class size increases and certain MD groups starting to question why their students are not allowed to apply to AOA residencies. Think about what would happen if one day the ACGME said 'enough' and pulled the plug on DOs applying to MD residencies? We'd be screwed. Furthermore, this could happen slowly with things like making it difficult to do audition rotations at ACGME programs (which is already happening to an extent with the electronic audition applications that are only open to LCME students).

To avoid this problem, we need to focus more on opening residencies opposed to new programs. Medical school without a residency = the most highly trained unemployed person you've ever seen (with around 200k in debt hanging over their head). Essentially, the focus on creating residencies should really increase.

NOW, having said that ... a. I can see both sides of the coin. Honestly, the AOA is trying to get as many DOs out there as possible, keep themselves afloat, and make an impact in the HC field. The easiest way to do this is by expanding schools, especially by creating branch campuses. b. Despite increases and DO only AOA residencies, ACGME fields seem to be quite receptive to DOs. I even saw a handful of ACGME derm matches from DO schools this year. Whether this will continue or not, I'm unsure ... but creating a bunch of residencies would definitely help keep the number of DO applicants high and desirable. Additionally the idea of 'Osteopathic medicine' may stay a bit more unique and 'separate but equal' (which is something the AOA likes) if the residencies were strong and people wanted to go to DO schools for the purpose of competing for these slots.

2. Opening up DO schools at research universities is also a valid point. CT saying that isn't him saying that everyone should go into research, smaller health sciences campuses don't train good clinicians, etc, but more that these big research universities take in big NIH money, attract the brightest talent, can support the biggest number of residency programs, etc, etc.

NOW, having said all that ... I do not think the profession is "coming to an end" nor do I believe these changes will never occur. Frankly, almost everything in life has pros and cons, and there is always room for improvement. I personally think DO schools are starting to move towards bigger research (I've personally heard about a few interesting studies at KCOM and was told NOVA gathered a nice chunk of government change for research this year - it's also connected to a big undergrad which is a plus all around) and that OGME is something the higher ups will push for.

You guys know I have lots of faith in DO education, becoming a DO, etc, but it's not a perfect system (nothing is) and there is always room for improvement. Having said that, if you're concerned about the future ... be proactive about it. Get involved with the AOA, conduct research, support DO/PhD programs, etc, etc, etc. However, don't spend hours stressing about it. Honestly, it's putting the cart before the horse in my opinion. Work hard and become the best DO you can now ... this will help you get involved, understand the issues as a student, and make change in the future.

 

[DbDan]

Jagger 👍 always a pleasure getting your opinion. In fact, I completely agree with what you've said.

My disagreement laid in his chicken little sky is falling statement and things like him saying he wants fewer residencies with higher competition so that there will be fewer physicians competing for the same amount of money. There were a lot of flaws and had he presented things in a logical way, such as supporting the expansion of research opportunities rather than simply stopping expansion because the profession would come to an end I wouldn't have even been involved in the argument.

BTW, Jagger are you at school now? How you liking Kirksville?

 

[MightyMoose]

Alright guys .... I don't want to cause WW III here, but I'm going to back FutureCT for a sec:

1. He's not really saying anything crazy (at the core). DO schools are expanding at a rapid rate and unfortunately, residency spots are not expanding with them. This means that more and more DO students are DEPENDING on ACGME residencies. This is is the midst of MD class size increases and certain MD groups starting to question why their students are not allowed to apply to AOA residencies. Think about what would happen if one day the ACGME said 'enough' and pulled the plug on DOs applying to MD residencies? We'd be screwed. Furthermore, this could happen slowly with things like making it difficult to do audition rotations at ACGME programs (which is already happening to an extent with the electronic audition applications that are only open to LCME students).

To avoid this problem, we need to focus more on opening residencies opposed to new programs. Medical school without a residency = the most highly trained unemployed person you've ever seen (with around 200k in debt hanging over their head). Essentially, the focus on creating residencies should really increase.

NOW, having said that ... a. I can see both sides of the coin. Honestly, the AOA is trying to get as many DOs out there as possible, keep themselves afloat, and make an impact in the HC field. The easiest way to do this is by expanding schools, especially by creating branch campuses. b. Despite increases and DO only AOA residencies, ACGME fields seem to be quite receptive to DOs. I even saw a handful of ACGME derm matches from DO schools this year. Whether this will continue or not, I'm unsure ... but creating a bunch of residencies would definitely help keep the number of DO applicants high and desirable. Additionally the idea of 'Osteopathic medicine' may stay a bit more unique and 'separate but equal' (which is something the AOA likes) if the residencies were strong and people wanted to go to DO schools for the purpose of competing for these slots.

2. Opening up DO schools at research universities is also a valid point. CT saying that isn't him saying that everyone should go into research, smaller health sciences campuses don't train good clinicians, etc, but more that these big research universities take in big NIH money, attract the brightest talent, can support the biggest number of residency programs, etc, etc.

NOW, having said all that ... I do not think the profession is "coming to an end" nor do I believe these changes will never occur. Frankly, almost everything in life has pros and cons, and there is always room for improvement. I personally think DO schools are starting to move towards bigger research (I've personally heard about a few interesting studies at KCOM and was told NOVA gathered a nice chunk of government change for research this year - it's also connected to a big undergrad which is a plus all around) and that OGME is something the higher ups will push for.

You guys know I have lots of faith in DO education, becoming a DO, etc, but it's not a perfect system (nothing is) and there is always room for improvement. Having said that, if you're concerned about the future ... be proactive about it. Get involved with the AOA, conduct research, support DO/PhD programs, etc, etc, etc. However, don't spend hours stressing about it. Honestly, it's putting the cart before the horse in my opinion. Work hard and become the best DO you can now ... this will help you get involved, understand the issues as a student, and make change in the future.

I was going to pass this one up, but I couldn't resist... The OP's post wasn't as well-meaning as you are giving him credit for. He's clearly concerned about numero uno, and his own pocketbook. Ban FMG's? Limit growth in physicians? Restrict branch campuses? Seriously? While some of the random points being flung around here might have some merit, most are ridiculous. This is one more example of the "Chicken Little Effect."

As far as your "nice chunk of change" for research dollars, that's a pittance compared to most MD universities, so while the OP feels that his university is contributing to the greater good, he's deluded as to what real research dollars are, and NSU doesn't have them...

What the OP is failing to see is that most branch campuses are designed to fit a need for that regional area. They are hoping the soon-to-be trained physicians will stay there and practice helping to reduce their local healthcare burden.

Have you guys looked at all the unfilled spots in the match every year? Sure, they aren't usually in Derm or Optho, but their are plenty of unfilled spots. If you want the more competitive specialties, then you better bring your A-game and compete. Life isn't handed to you on a platter and I take offense to penny pinching folks that are clearly going into medicine for the wrong reasons. Sure, money is great, but that shouldn't be your focus. If it is, I suggest you pack your bags and look elsewhere, because once you've calculated hours dedicated, workload, debt, years of training, etc. then physicians make very little.

OP, at 18/19 years old, you just don't have the insight you need to evaluate what is really occurring in the world. DbDan is was simply attempting to say that you will mature throughout your education and will most likely endure experiences that will open your eyes to more than just your needs. You will start to realize that having physicians available to treat those in need is much much more important that how much extra you bring home at the end of the day.

 

[FutureCTDoc]

The issue isn't the number of physicians as I will reiterate. The issue is few going into and staying in primary care. A misallocation of assets would be more appropriate a term. Internists are highly trained, they don't need to be doing physicals and other simple things that can be done by PAs and NPs.

I think that COCA has been loose in terms of its standards, allowing institutions that are ill suited to providing training open. The accreditation of RVU COM was a real watershed moment for the profession. For the first time since the Flexner report a proprietary medical college was allowed to be opened. Most of what I'm saying is stated in the Flexner report, institutions should be integrated within larger universities for a number of reasons. I'm not suggesting that we close down all ready opened institutions, rather that we make stricter standards for new ones, standards that are more in line with those upheld by the LCME.

Secondly I'm not stating everyone coming out of an osteopathic medical school should be a Ph.D., what I am stating is that too few COMs do offer the option of pursuing a Ph.D. Only MSU-COM, OUCOM, OSUCOM, PCOM, UMDNJ-SOM and UNTHSCOM out of 29 schools in the 2010 CIB. This is simply too few.

 

[Dharma]

blah blah blah...
i wish i had enough free time to get caught up in all this bs.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Jagger 👍 always a pleasure getting your opinion. In fact, I completely agree with what you've said.

My disagreement laid in his chicken little sky is falling statement and things like him saying he wants fewer residencies with higher competition so that there will be fewer physicians competing for the same amount of money. There were a lot of flaws and had he presented things in a logical way, such as supporting the expansion of research opportunities rather than simply stopping expansion because the profession would come to an end I wouldn't have even been involved in the argument.

BTW, Jagger are you at school now? How you liking Kirksville?

Thanks man. Also (just to everyone else, etc), I really only read Future's first post and saw that people were getting irritating with it, so gave my .02. I haven't read all the intricate details of the thread, so I apologize if some of my statements seem off err something.

Driving out to K-Ville today. I'll keep you guys updated!

 

[ShyRem]

The issue isn't the number of physicians as I will reiterate. The issue is few going into and staying in primary care. A misallocation of assets would be more appropriate a term. Internists are highly trained, they don't need to be doing physicals and other simple things that can be done by PAs and NPs.

I think that COCA has been loose in terms of its standards, allowing institutions that are ill suited to providing training open. The accreditation of RVU COM was a real watershed moment for the profession. For the first time since the Flexner report a proprietary medical college was allowed to be opened. Most of what I'm saying is stated in the Flexner report, institutions should be integrated within larger universities for a number of reasons. I'm not suggesting that we close down all ready opened institutions, rather that we make stricter standards for new ones, standards that are more in line with those upheld by the LCME.

Secondly I'm not stating everyone coming out of an osteopathic medical school should be a Ph.D., what I am stating is that too few COMs do offer the option of pursuing a Ph.D. Only MSU-COM, OUCOM, OSUCOM, PCOM, UMDNJ-SOM and UNTHSCOM out of 29 schools in the 2010 CIB. This is simply too few.

You forgot at least one other. UNECOM offers a DO/PhD. Who knows how many others you forgot. I would encourage any poster considering a DO/PhD to please contact each school and inquire yourselves rather than rely on other members who may not be totally informed.

 

[engineeredout]

Osteopathic medicine is threatened. Not by the AMA, the government or HMOs; rather it runs the risk of implosion. The continuing accreditation of branch campuses and new schools is having a negative impact on this generation of medical students. There is no need or reason to open more medical schools unless people plan on increasing the number of residency spots accordingly. Newer osteopathic colleges of medicine are oftentimes freestanding or affiliated with smaller colleges or health sciences universities. New medical schools, if they are to be opened, need to contribute basic and applied research to the body of knowledge. Something that few of these schools do in any meaningful way.
While the lack of scholarship is a pressing issue to me, more students are likely to be effected by the lack of increased residency slots. Fewer spots leads to more competition for less desirable fields. More students also decrease geographic choice and choice of specialties. As students it is imperative that we lobby COCA and the AOA to stop supporting these new schools.

You've decided to be a CT surgeon when you're not even going to graduate medical school until 2017?

 

[FutureCTDoc]

You forgot at least one other. UNECOM offers a DO/PhD. Who knows how many others you forgot. I would encourage any poster considering a DO/PhD to please contact each school and inquire yourselves rather than rely on other members who may not be totally informed.

UNECOM isn't listed in the CIB as having one.

 

[FutureCTDoc]

You've decided to be a CT surgeon when you're not even going to graduate medical school until 2017?

I'm from Connecticut. Fail.

 

[SoulinNeed]

Wasn't this year arguably the best year for DO matches in ACGME residencies? It was certainly better than last year (although, only marginally). It was like 72% this year versus 69% last year, I believe.

 

[Dharma]

?

 

[avatarftw]

Not really. The rate of DO medical school matriculant expansion is far outpacing that of the MD's. If residency spots are relatively stagnant (as they are) then what will happen to your chances of getting a spot? The truth hurts, but the numbers don't lie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_MD_and_DO_in_the_United_States

"Changing numbers Between 1980 and 2005, the annual number of new MDs remained stable at around 16,000. During the same period, the number of new DOs increased by more than 140% (from about 1,150 to about 2,800).[9] Osteopathic graduates are expected to increase to 3,300 by the year 2010 and as many as 4,000 by 2015.[5] The number of new MDs per 100,000 people fell from 7.5 to 5.6, while the number of new DOs per 100,000 rose from 0.4 to 0.8.[9]"

Easy there kid... Fact of the matter is MD schools are expanding just as rapidly as DO programs. While teaching hospitals may be in short supply, many DO students come out trained fine for entrance into residency. If you want to lobby to someone, lobby to medicare funding to open more residency spots, not for schools to stop expanding. If DO schools stop, MDs will continue and they will flood the residency positions anyway

 

[avatarftw]

Nothing wrong with taking care of oneself. How can you help others if you are not well? (emotionally, psychologically, financially)

I'm sure that the many pre-med students that say they want to practice in a rural town of 20,000 for 80,000 GROSS a year (working 50 hours a week) while servicing a 200,000 loan debt accruing at 6.8%+ will change their tune as they advance in the educational marathon known as medicine. Oh, and the opportunity cost of not making money for 7+ years after college and securing your financial independence is not a big deal, right? Realism>>>idealism.

I was going to pass this one up, but I couldn't resist... The OP's post wasn't as well-meaning as you are giving him credit for. He's clearly concerned about numero uno, and his own pocketbook. Ban FMG's? Limit growth in physicians? Restrict branch campuses? Seriously? While some of the random points being flung around here might have some merit, most are ridiculous. This is one more example of the "Chicken Little Effect."

As far as your "nice chunk of change" for research dollars, that's a pittance compared to most MD universities, so while the OP feels that his university is contributing to the greater good, he's deluded as to what real research dollars are, and NSU doesn't have them...

What the OP is failing to see is that most branch campuses are designed to fit a need for that regional area. They are hoping the soon-to-be trained physicians will stay there and practice helping to reduce their local healthcare burden.

Have you guys looked at all the unfilled spots in the match every year? Sure, they aren't usually in Derm or Optho, but their are plenty of unfilled spots. If you want the more competitive specialties, then you better bring your A-game and compete. Life isn't handed to you on a platter and I take offense to penny pinching folks that are clearly going into medicine for the wrong reasons. Sure, money is great, but that shouldn't be your focus. If it is, I suggest you pack your bags and look elsewhere, because once you've calculated hours dedicated, workload, debt, years of training, etc. then physicians make very little.

OP, at 18/19 years old, you just don't have the insight you need to evaluate what is really occurring in the world. DbDan is was simply attempting to say that you will mature throughout your education and will most likely endure experiences that will open your eyes to more than just your needs. You will start to realize that having physicians available to treat those in need is much much more important that how much extra you bring home at the end of the day.

 

[crazynate]

Nothing wrong with taking care of oneself. How can you help others if you are not well? (emotionally, psychologically, financially)

I'm sure that the many pre-med students that say they want to practice in a rural town of 20,000 for 80,000 GROSS a year (working 50 hours a week) while servicing a 200,000 loan debt accruing at 6.8%+ will change their tune as they advance in the educational marathon known as medicine. Oh, and the opportunity cost of not making money for 7+ years after college and securing your financial independence is not a big deal, right? Realism>>>idealism.

Sources? I was under the impression that some rural spots pay more than urban spots, especially with internal medicine and such

 

[Dharma]

Not really. The rate of DO medical school matriculant expansion is far outpacing that of the MD's. If residency spots are relatively stagnant (as they are) then what will happen to your chances of getting a spot? The truth hurts, but the numbers don't lie.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_MD_and_DO_in_the_United_States#cite_note-per_capita-8"

Less spots for FMGs. I'm cool with that.

 

[DbDan]

Not really. The rate of DO medical school matriculant expansion is far outpacing that of the MD's. If residency spots are relatively stagnant (as they are) then what will happen to your chances of getting a spot? The truth hurts, but the numbers don't lie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_MD_and_DO_in_the_United_States

"Changing numbers Between 1980 and 2005, the annual number of new MDs remained stable at around 16,000. During the same period, the number of new DOs increased by more than 140% (from about 1,150 to about 2,800).[9] Osteopathic graduates are expected to increase to 3,300 by the year 2010 and as many as 4,000 by 2015.[5] The number of new MDs per 100,000 people fell from 7.5 to 5.6, while the number of new DOs per 100,000 rose from 0.4 to 0.8.[9]"

I meant in the number of schools currently being opened/accredited. Yes, it is going to be harder to grow a percentage of 16,000 people than 1,150...

MD schools planned or opening this year
UC Merced 2013
UC Riverside 2012
Scripps school of medicine 2013
Quinnipiac 2013/14
Florida Atlantic University 2011
Oakland University 2011
Central Michigan University 2012
Western Michigan (possibly)
Cooper Medical School at Rowan University 2012
Hofstra University 2011
King School of Medicine 2012
University of Houston (possibly)

DO schools planned or opening
Missouri State University 2012
Western-Lebanon 2011
VCOM-CC 2011

 

[DbDan]

Nothing wrong with taking care of oneself. How can you help others if you are not well? (emotionally, psychologically, financially)

I'm sure that the many pre-med students that say they want to practice in a rural town of 20,000 for 80,000 GROSS a year (working 50 hours a week) while servicing a 200,000 loan debt accruing at 6.8%+ will change their tune as they advance in the educational marathon known as medicine. Oh, and the opportunity cost of not making money for 7+ years after college and securing your financial independence is not a big deal, right? Realism>>>idealism.

1. People practicing in rural/underserved areas have the ability to take on service contracts to help repay their debts

2. Some rural areas actually pay more to attract doctors...

 

[Longshanks]

I don't want more residency positions, I want fewer with no FMG access to them. Fewer physicians competing for the same amount dollar wise. The MD schools that are going to open are, with only 1 exception, affiliated with research institutions.

How will the medical profession address the primary care shortage and health care disparities by not expanding residencies? This is something that needs to be addressed by medicare and other government subsidies, which thankfully the new health care bill is supposed to provide funding for new primary care residency slots late this decade (it was 2016 or 2018 IIRC from a health policy discussion at the hospital where I do my research). FMG's for the most part fill the primary care shortage in this country, as with increasing student debt loads and shrinking primary care incomes more and more graduating students are attempting for specialized positions with better pay. A recent study, that was posted in the pre-allo forum the other week, showed that patients favored FMGs, so there is no reason to dismiss them. While the profession is trying to expand, it is good that they are increasing the amount of American graduates to fulfill American needs, but this is a America, a nation of immigrants, and one which has always benefited from our influx of immigrants. FMGs and IMGs will continue to be welcomed although the available pool space for them will be shrinking with the increase in American graduates.

Why would you want fewer physicians fighting for the same market share? This makes no sense. As it is already we don't have enough physicians to treat our aging population, and the problem will only compound as the "baby boom echo" generation ages. What your proposing is also extremely inefficient economically, and would rise costs for everyone and decrease the ability to treat the nation's communities.

There are residency positions that still go unfilled, especially some AOA residencies in certain areas of the country. We need more graduating physicians in our to fulfill the gaps in care and we need more residency spots to train the eventual increase in graduates when all these schools open in the next decade, especially in order to properly treat an large aging patient population which will most likely be demonstrating the effects of the obesity epidemic in America.

 

[avatarftw]

I wasn't saying that rural jobs give more than hip, urban sites. It was just an example of an undesirable (for the vast majority of people) location yielding a poor salary for such debt and investment.

1. People practicing in rural/underserved areas have the ability to take on service contracts to help repay their debts

2. Some rural areas actually pay more to attract doctors...

 

[DbDan]

I wasn't saying that rural jobs give more than hip, urban sites. It was just an example of an undesirable (for the vast majority of people) location yielding a poor salary for such debt and investment.

I know what you were trying to say, i just felt that it was a poor example. 👍 not trying to attack lol sorry

 

[avatarftw]

Incorrect. If you compare the number of schools being opened (absolute number) then it is much less accurate than comparing the percentage increase of matriculants. Rate>>>absolute numbers.

For example, lets say that you own a grocery store and sold 40,000 pounds of bananas. The next year you sell 400 more pounds. It may sound like a lot, but its only 1% more.

Sports analogy: Wow, that guy has hit 5 homers while the other player hit 3; he hits for more power. Well, if the player that hit 5 homers had 600 at bats and the other player had 10 at bats, the home run percentage/AB is much different.

I meant in the number of schools currently being opened/accredited. Yes, it is going to be harder to grow a percentage of 16,000 people than 1,150...

MD schools planned or opening this year
UC Merced 2013
UC Riverside 2012
Scripps school of medicine 2013
Quinnipiac 2013/14
Florida Atlantic University 2011
Oakland University 2011
Central Michigan University 2012
Western Michigan (possibly)
Cooper Medical School at Rowan University 2012
Hofstra University 2011
King School of Medicine 2012
University of Houston (possibly)

DO schools planned or opening
Missouri State University 2012
Western-Lebanon 2011
VCOM-CC 2011

 

[DbDan]

Incorrect. If you compare the number of schools being opened (absolute number) then it is much less accurate than comparing the percentage increase of matriculants. Rate>>>absolute numbers.

For example, lets say that you own a grocery store and sold 40,000 pounds of bananas. The next year you sell 400 more pounds. It may sound like a lot, but its only 1% more.

Sports analogy: Wow, that guy has hit 5 homers while the other player hit 3; he hits for more power. Well, if the player that hit 5 homers had 600 at bats and the other player had 10 at bats, the home run percentage/AB is much different.

Like I said, when I said that MD schools were expanding just as rapidly it was in respect to the # of schools being opened, which was what the OP was saying needs to stop with DO schools. Like I said earlier, it is much easier to increase at a higher rate when you have a lower # of original students. While one school opening and taking 100 people in an original population of 2000 is a substantial increase. In order to get the same percentage in a 20,000 person original population, you need a 1,000 new spots to open.

With respect to residencies, which was another argument being made, ACGME residencies are going to be filled more substantially by the increase in MD schools that are opened. 12 MD schools opening to 3 DOs would mean that the rate of expansion of MD schools is still high and IMO higher than DOs regardless of percent increases. That is still likely 4MD graduates to 1 DO graduate. Yes, DOs will make up a larger percentage of the physician population if that increase continues, however, there will still be an increased # of MDs graduating every year taking residency spots.

I think that quickly become rambling and nonsensical lol, i'm tired. Basically I just meant that schools (the original topic of the thread) are expanding just as rapidly on the MD side.

 

[GraceEuphoria]

Why even bother creating this thread? You've made it abundantly clear in every single thread about a new DO school that you are against this. Some people agree, some people don't. Are residency slots an issue? Absolutely. But do you think that you're the only one that is realizing this? While I by no means advocate sitting back and hoping for the best, I think your efforts might be better invested in promoting the opening of new residency slots as opposed to bashing the country's attempt to address the need for more physicians.

Also, it might sound like a crazy concept, but not everyone wants to do research or enter an insanely competitive program. Prestige and money do not drive all current and future physicians, nor do their presence define or enhance a physician's skills and capabilities.

I totally support rallying together to ensure the creation of enough residency spots to manage all of the school openings and expansions. Why can't the focus of this be shifted to that?

I think I'm done with this topic- I have to take things one week at a time, even one day at a time sometimes. My time is better spent worrying about my upcoming block exam than how this will all pan out in the long run. Apathetic, perhaps, but there's really no need to be killing yourself over this. If you really feel so strongly about it, try rallying up the people that care. Make some noise. But just realize in the process of doing so, people might very well NOT support what you're saying.

 

[Parts Unknown]

I meant in the number of schools currently being opened/accredited. Yes, it is going to be harder to grow a percentage of 16,000 people than 1,150...

MD schools planned or opening this year
UC Merced 2013
UC Riverside 2012
Scripps school of medicine 2013
Quinnipiac 2013/14
Florida Atlantic University 2011
Oakland University 2011
Central Michigan University 2012
Western Michigan (possibly)
Cooper Medical School at Rowan University 2012
Hofstra University 2011
King School of Medicine 2012
University of Houston (possibly)

DO schools planned or opening
Missouri State University 2012
Western-Lebanon 2011
VCOM-CC 2011

A bit misleading. Since 1990 a total of fourteen DO schools have opened compared to 3 MD schools.

UC Merced has been delayed to 2020.

 

[Dharma]

Kill this thread. It's getting redundant.
Points taken. Move on...

 

[Siggy]

Most newer schools with few exceptions are on the wrong side of the median for both GPA and MCAT, while they are not the be all and end all, they are the best metric for comparing students from various medical schools.

Yes, because we all know that new schools can compete with the likes of WashU for students. Unless you want to name an actual target for a national median score or some sort of hard limit minimum, the statistics do not matter.

 

[FutureCTDoc]

Yes, because we all know that new schools can compete with the likes of WashU for students. Unless you want to name an actual target for a national median score or some sort of hard limit minimum, the statistics do not matter.

That would be inappropriate, the MCAT as I stated is the only objective metric by which to compare candidates and when viewed in vacuum is not terribly useful. I'm suggesting that DO schools step it up closer to the Allos. DO average is 27, it's 31 for MDs.

 

[SoulinNeed]

It's times like these that I'm happy that I'm someone who actually wants to do Internal Medicine, with no fellowship, lol.

 

[Siggy]

That would be inappropriate, the MCAT as I stated is the only objective metric by which to compare candidates and when viewed in vacuum is not terribly useful. I'm suggesting that DO schools step it up closer to the Allos. DO average is 27, it's 31 for MDs.

Ok... what's the minimum MCAT score that should be accepted? Alternatively, is your only complaint the fact that the DO MCAT average is lower than the MD MCAT average? Unless there's some magical cut off score, does it really matter what the average score is? Do you think that someone with a 26 or 27 MCAT can't be a good physician? Alternatively is a person with an MCAT of 35 de facto a better physician?

 

[FutureCTDoc]

Ok... what's the minimum MCAT score that should be accepted? Alternatively, is your only complaint the fact that the DO MCAT average is lower than the MD MCAT average? Unless there's some magical cut off score, does it really matter what the average score is? Do you think that someone with a 26 or 27 MCAT can't be a good physician? Alternatively is a person with an MCAT of 35 de facto a better physician?

On average a person with a 35 is more intelligent and is more likely to be a better physician. To get that score requires hard work and dedication, not to speak of innate ability. Top physicians, i.e. the great names, tend to have done well on the MCAT and tend to have gone to top schools.