Students caught cheating on the MCAT

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xx3344 said:
That's harsh, in all honesty do you really think so? I have read so many worse stories, and students only getting "warnings." I do not see how a misunderstanding that can be proved through the cameras (if they really wanna get technical) can result in me getting banned from ever applying to medical school. Thanks for your honesty though.
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I know your account is 21 hours old but in case you didn't know Goro is an Adcom member at his school.
 
Maybe I'm not savvy about the tech they were using, but wouldn't this take a while in a time-pressured situation? Especially since the new MCAT only shows one question at a time on the page.
 
No good advice or insight here, but just want to say that I'm so sorry this happened to you and hope it all works out. This is just a report to initiate an investigation right? Therefore, you'll have the chance to explain and make a case to AAMC at some point. Even if they find you to have breached testing policies, there should still be an opportunity to appeal. It's only bad if all of these fails and the incident shows up on your record. It'll delay your scores, so maybe consider postponing applying for a year, until all this is resolved.
 
No this is for a new post on one of the previous pages.
 
From AAMC:

Investigation Procedures  If the AAMC receives information that any individual has engaged in irregular behavior or any conduct that may compromise the integrity of the MCAT exam (including copyright infringement or violation of the terms of the Examinee Agreement), MCAT officials will investigate the claim and may issue a report of the factual findings of the investigation.

 Any examinee who is the subject of an investigation by the AAMC shall: fully cooperate with the AAMC’s investigation, produce all documents and materials requested by the AAMC, and submit to an in-person interview conducted by or on behalf of the AAMC at the association’s request. Examinees shall truthfully and completely answer all questions posed during investigative interviews conducted by or on behalf of the AAMC. An examinee’s refusal to cooperate with the AAMC’s investigation or presentation of false or misleading information to the AAMC or its representatives in the course of an AAMC investigation shall constitute a serious and material breach of the Examinee Agreement and shall serve as a separate and independent basis for the AAMC to take action against the examinee as described below.

 If a report of the incident is to be issued, the AAMC first notifies the examinee about available options, which may include the opportunity to submit a statement explaining the examinee’s actions, request reconsideration, or appeal the AAMC’s decision.  At its sole discretion, the AAMC may elect to send the report documenting the incident, with any attachments provided by the examinee, to legitimately interested parties, including all persons or agencies to which the examinee has instructed that scores be sent, both presently and in the future.  The AAMC also may elect to cancel an examinee’s test scores when there is reason to believe that the scores are invalid, or that the examinee has engaged in behavior that violates the Examinee Agreement. The AAMC also may elect to suspend an individual’s eligibility to test for a limited period of time or permanently.  The AAMC may, at its sole discretion, file a civil lawsuit against an examinee for material breaches of the Examinee Agreement that cause damage to the AAMC and/or a third party. In addition, the AAMC may, at its sole discretion, refer an examinee to one or more federal, state, or local prosecuting attorneys for criminal investigation and prosecution when it has a reasonable basis to conclude that the examinee may have committed a crime in the course of violating the Examinee Agreement.
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Looks like you'll have a lot of chances to fight any charges because it becomes official. If what you said is true, they can look into the security videos and see that you did not access the notes in any part of the exam. Were you ever in the vicinity of the notebook once exam started? Goro may be an adcom member, but honestly all this information strongly contradicts his claim that you're already screwed.
 
Goro said:
So is panicking prior to a high stakes, career defining exam.

How will OP behave with an acting out psychotic, or someone bleeding out after a MVA?
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They are both dumb but medical admissions is dumb in a particularly unforgivable manner in my opinion.
 
Didn't even know cheating was illegal.

No yeah I'm pretty sure it's not.

Noomm said:
They are both dumb but medical admissions is dumb in a particularly unforgivable manner in my opinion.
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When you don't know the full picture about what you're doing but are forced to make a decision, and you make the wrong decision, that's forgivable to me.

The world must turn.
 
Tough. It's a seller's market and we want the best and the brightest, and can get them multiple times over.
Dormouse said:
From AAMC:


I agree that the poster should contest the charges, but even at 100% face value, and I'm not going to hold back on this: do you realize what a foolish thing the poster did? This alone would disqualify him/her. Forever? I don't know; I hope that s/he'll learn from this and have an exemplary record. People do believe in redemption.




Looks like you'll have a lot of chances to fight any charges because it becomes official. If what you said is true, they can look into the security videos and see that you did not access the notes in any part of the exam. Were you ever in the vicinity of the notebook once exam started? Goro may be an adcom member, but honestly all this information strongly contradicts his claim that you're already screwed.
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Noomm said:
They are both dumb but medical admissions is dumb in a particularly unforgivable manner in my opinion.
Click to expand...
 
Goro said:
Tough. It's a seller's market and we want the best and the brightest, and can get them multiple times over.
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Aren't you an adcom at a DO school? I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't consider your students the "best and the brightest."

If I were an adcom I would rather take someone with a 3.6 sGPA/80+ percentile MCAT who probably never cheated although he is "suspected" of it than someone with a 3.4 sGPA/70+ percentile MCAT who is simply not as smart.
 
Noomm said:
Aren't you an adcom at a DO school? I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't consider your students the "best and the brightest."
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Shots fired.

Seriously, that's horrifically uncalled for as well as extremely ignorant.

Noomm said:
If I were an adcom I would rather take someone with a 3.6 sGPA/80+ percentile MCAT who probably never cheated although he is "suspected" of it than someone with a 3.4 sGPA/70+ percentile MCAT who is simply not as smart.
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Well, premed student, let us know when you're an adcom at an American medical school and are making these decisions based on actual experience and data.
 
Noomm said:
Aren't you an adcom at a DO school? I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't consider your students the "best and the brightest."

If I were an adcom I would rather take someone with a 3.6 sGPA/80+ percentile MCAT who probably never cheated although he is "suspected" of it than someone with a 3.4 sGPA/70+ percentile MCAT who is simply not as smart.
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What an incredibly disrespectful comment. Though I'm not surprised to hear it from someone who thinks intelligence trumps ethics.
 
jonnythan said:
Shots fired.

Seriously, that's horrifically uncalled for as well as extremely ignorant.
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It's a fact. It wasn't uncalled for when Goro exaggerating in an effort to bolster her argument. There's no way that medical schools can get the best and brightest "many times over." That's simply delusional.
 
Noomm said:
Aren't you an adcom at a DO school? I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't consider your students the "best and the brightest."
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OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

****.

Noomm said:
If I were an adcom I would rather take someone with a 3.6 sGPA/80+ percentile MCAT who probably never cheated although he is "suspected" of it than someone with a 3.4 sGPA/70+ percentile MCAT who is simply not as smart.
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I didn't think you could follow it up with an equally ridiculous comment but you did!!! You did!!!!
 
ZedsDed said:
What an incredibly disrespectful comment. Though I'm not surprised to hear it from someone who thinks intelligence trumps ethics.
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This has nothing to do with intelligence trumping ethics. In my view, it's unethical to treat someone like trash for something that most likely never even happened, which is how the poster with the notebook is being treated.

"It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer" is my view of ethics. You can try to say that I am not valuing ethics but the fact is that your opinion of what is ethical is simply different from mine.
 
Noomm said:
Aren't you an adcom at a DO school? I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't consider your students the "best and the brightest."

If I were an adcom I would rather take someone with a 3.6 sGPA/80+ percentile MCAT who probably never cheated although he is "suspected" of it than someone with a 3.4 sGPA/70+ percentile MCAT who is simply not as smart.
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You're an idiot.
 
I love all the ad hominems. I guess nobody here is capable of formulating an actual argument?
 
Noomm said:
I love all the ad hominems. I guess nobody here is capable of formulating an actual argument?
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Oh, you were the guy telling us what he would be doing if he were a residency program director. Now you're telling us what you would be doing as a US adcom.

Try being a better premed student before you start trying to be a doctor and medical school administrator.
 
@Noomm - Goro, thankfully, has a strong enough latissimus dorsi that he won't be bothered by your rude comments;

but *I* am.
 
Noomm said:
I love all the ad hominems. I guess nobody here is capable of formulating an actual argument?
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The stats for admitted students to Goro's school are above the stats for the average MD applicant, so it is not absurd on it's face for Goro to think highly of his students. But really, that is not what pissed people off. Your statement was rude, period. And directed towards someone who contributes a lot to the SDN community.
 
ZedsDed said:
The stats for admitted students to Goro's school are above the stats for the average MD applicant,
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Anyone can apply to MD school, so there is no reason why anyone should expect the stats for the average MD applicant to be very high. In addition to this, admitted students != matriculants. They could just be applying to the school as a safety school. Let's be honest this is not really that impressive of a feat.

ZedsDed said:
so it is not absurd on it's face for Goro to think highly of his students.
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Of course not. But to call them the best and the brightest? I don't think that's accurate at all.

ZedsDed said:
But really, that is not what pissed people off. Your statement was rude, period. And directed towards someone who contributes a lot to the SDN community.
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It was rude, I'll admit that. But Goro is rude to lots of people, and has also said that she has a thick skin and can't stand overly sensitive people, so I would think that unless she is a total hypocrite, she won't mind.
 
I have no respect for cheaters at this schooling level. I found out recently that a girl I knew from highschool got caught cheating twice on exams and wasn't reported the second time because she would have been expelled.. Which she should have been. She just got accepted into med-school. Makes me cringe.

In one of my Gen. Chem. courses almost the whole class was making Ds and Fs on exams except for me and three/four others which had high As. I asked one girl how she studied to do so well because I felt like I studied my a** off and still found the exams to be really stressful. Turned out they were all cheating. That also really annoyed me. I studied hours daily for over a week for that professors exams and here these people are not studying one second and just cheating for the same grades. Needles to say, I ended up being one of the only ones making good grades after that.. It's a shame that these people are okay with cheating their way through school.
 
Noomm said:
Anyone can apply to MD school. Let's be honest this is not really that impressive of a feat.


Of course not. But to call them the best and the brightest? I don't think that's accurate at all.



It was rude, I'll admit that. But Goro is rude to lots of people, and has also said that she has a thick skin and can't stand overly sensitive people, so I would think that unless she is a total hypocrite, she won't mind.
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I admit I don't think Goro will care. She's a he, btw.
 
Noomm said:
Anyone can apply to MD school. Let's be honest this is not really that impressive of a feat.


Of course not. But to call them the best and the brightest? I don't think that's accurate at all.



It was rude, I'll admit that. But Goro is rude to lots of people, and has also said that she has a thick skin and can't stand overly sensitive people, so I would think that unless she is a total hypocrite, she won't mind.
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Noomm said:
Aren't you an adcom at a DO school? I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't consider your students the "best and the brightest."

If I were an adcom I would rather take someone with a 3.6 sGPA/80+ percentile MCAT who probably never cheated although he is "suspected" of it than someone with a 3.4 sGPA/70+ percentile MCAT who is simply not as smart.
Click to expand...
Noomm said:
It's a fact. It wasn't uncalled for when Goro exaggerating in an effort to bolster her argument. There's no way that medical schools can get the best and brightest "many times over." That's simply delusional.
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Funny you mention all this, since after all... you derailed Goro's Interview Questions thread over senseless discussion:

Noomm said:
Two questions in my mind right now...

1. Why did you bring up PCOM in the pre-allo forum?
2. Why do we even have two separate forums?
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Noomm said:
You clearly have no idea what an analogy is. Read up on this: http://www.westmaneditorial.com/analogy-vs-metaphor-vs-simile-whats-the-difference/
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Noomm said:
Maybe this will help you see what an analogy is?
http://literarydevices.net/analogy/
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Normally, I would dismiss you as a troll waiting to be splattered, but it seems that you have some sort of strife with Goro here. I recommend taking some time off from SDN and get yourself together.
 
Umm.... this all sounds vaguely like ... bada bada bada bada bada bada bada badabatman ... ??
 
Noomm said:
Anyone can apply to MD school, so there is no reason why anyone should expect the stats for the average MD applicant to be very high. In addition to this, admitted students != matriculants. They could just be applying to the school as a safety school. Let's be honest this is not really that impressive of a feat.


Of course not. But to call them the best and the brightest? I don't think that's accurate at all.



It was rude, I'll admit that. But Goro is rude to lots of people, and has also said that she has a thick skin and can't stand overly sensitive people, so I would think that unless she is a total hypocrite, she won't mind.
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1. Goro is a he.

2. You are an ass

3. Before you bash students from DO schools, you need to get into A MEDICAL SCHOOL first.

4. There was a guy at one of my DO interviews just a few weeks ago with a 42 MCAT.

5. You are an ass.
 
Gandy741 said:
1. Goro is a he.

2. You are an ass

3. Before you bash students from DO schools, you need to get into A MEDICAL SCHOOL first.

4. You are an ass.
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I'm not even bashing students from DO schools. Of course there are many great DO doctors. But to say that students admitted to DO schools are the "best and the brightest" is a lie.
 
Noomm said:
Anyone can apply to MD school, so there is no reason why anyone should expect the stats for the average MD applicant to be very high. In addition to this, admitted students != matriculants. They could just be applying to the school as a safety school. Let's be honest this is not really that impressive of a feat.


Of course not. But to call them the best and the brightest? I don't think that's accurate at all.



It was rude, I'll admit that. But Goro is rude to lots of people, and has also said that she has a thick skin and can't stand overly sensitive people, so I would think that unless she is a total hypocrite, she won't mind.
Click to expand...

Wait so if someone has a thick skin it means you can be as rude as you want to others? You also recognize some competitive applicants believe more in the DO philosophy right?
 
Noomm said:
I'm not even bashing students from DO schools. Of course there are many great DO doctors. But to say that students admitted to DO schools are the "best and the brightest" is a lie.
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Ok if we are going to use that line of logic, then every student that isnt from the top 20 MD schools is not the best and brightest so that includes the vast majority of MD schools too.

Your point again is moot.
 
Noomm said:
I'm not even bashing students from DO schools. Of course there are many great DO doctors. But to say that students admitted to DO schools are the "best and the brightest" is a lie.
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It may not be the most correct. but DO students are among the best and the brightest.
 
Medgrant said:
I have no respect for cheaters at this schooling level. I found out recently that a girl I knew from highschool got caught cheating twice on exams and wasn't reported the second time because she would have been expelled.. Which she should have been. She just got accepted into med-school. Makes me cringe.

In one of my Gen. Chem. courses almost the whole class was making Ds and Fs on exams except for me and three/four others which had high As. I asked one girl how she studied to do so well because I felt like I studied my a** off and still found the exams to be really stressful. Turned out they were all cheating. That also really annoyed me. I studied hours daily for over a week for that professors exams and here these people are not studying one second and just cheating for the same grades. Needles to say, I ended up being one of the only ones making good grades after that.. It's a shame that these people are okay with cheating their way through school.
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That sucky moment when you realize life is not like an after school special.
 
Gandy741 said:
Ok if we are going to use that line of logic, then every student that isnt from the top 20 schools is not the best and brightest so that includes the vast majority of MD schools too.

Your point again is moot.
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That's exactly what I'm saying.
 
Noomm said:
This has nothing to do with intelligence trumping ethics. In my view, it's unethical to treat someone like trash for something that most likely never even happened, which is how the poster with the notebook is being treated.

"It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer" is my view of ethics. You can try to say that I am not valuing ethics but the fact is that your opinion of what is ethical is simply different from mine.
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Actualy @Goro didn't treat the poster like trash. The comment was blunt and succinct, but hardly accusatory, blaming, ridiculing, defamatory, or any of the other 'trash'-worthy attributes. Merely, it was rather a factual (and accurate) observation that if the poster is reported by the AAMC for cheating on the MCAT, his/her chances for admission are nil. Strong sentences are short.
 
So we are measuring who is "best" and who is "brightest" on the basis of MCAT and GPA measures?

Cool.
 
@Gandy741 calm down. @Noomm is certainly a d*ck (sorry dude maybe you're a nice person in a different kind of conversation?) but there's plenty of d*cks out there. Nothing to get riled about.
 
Gandy741 said:
Ok if we are going to use that line of logic, then every student that isnt from the top 20 MD schools is not the best and brightest so that includes the vast majority of MD schools too.

Your point again is moot.
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Nah man. We all know MD means smart, successful etc. So Caribbean students are actually the best and the brightest. Gotta work on the tan while acing classes and USMLEs, amirite?
 
Lawper said:
Nah man. We all know MD means smart, successful etc. So Caribbean students are actually the best and the brightest. Gotta work on the tan while acing classes and USMLEs, amirite?
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No taxes. Practice rastafarianism with my colleagues.
 
Noomm said:
I'm not even bashing students from DO schools. Of course there are many great DO doctors. But to say that students admitted to DO schools are the "best and the brightest" is a lie.
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Even if that were true in any way, and it's not, you're literally a premed insulting your (possible) future classmates, colleagues, teachers, and bosses.

You don't know what you're talking about, at all. What you're saying is indeed factually incorrect. If you get to the point of taking the USMLE, I promise you there will be lots and lots of DO students who do better than you do, and there will be DO students ranked above you by PDs on match lists.

American medical students are, indeed, the best and the brightest and insulting tens of thousands of actual medical students and physicians is a pretty awful, egoist, dismissive, jerkass way to start your career.
 
Guys I apologize. I was wrong and I admit it. All medical students are the best and the brightest. Whether someone graduates from Harvard, a DO school, or a school in the Caribbean - it says nothing at all about whether or not they are smarter than another person. All medical students are the best and brightest people on the planet.

MD = DO = Carib MD
 
Noomm said:
Guys I apologize. I was wrong and I admit it. All medical students are the best and the brightest. Whether someone graduates from Harvard, a DO school, or a school in the Caribbean - it says nothing at all about whether or not they are smarter than another person. All medical students are the best and brightest people on the planet.

MD = DO = Carib MD
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Doubling down on stupid is not the right move here.
 
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