Suggestions & Comments Needed!

[Meatwad]

If you all don't mind, I'd like to give you a quick synopsis of my own situation and see if you could give me your opinions about which path would be wisest for me to take on my quest to be an airline pi... medical doctor. Here goes (and please excuse my verbosity ):

I'm 20 years old, essentially 21 (birthday in mid-February). I go to a very well-respected university (which coincidentally has a medical school). When I first enrolled in college back in the Fall semester of 2004, I was leaving high school at the top 5% of my class with very high grades in AP and college classes, a high SAT, all that jazz. So far, so good. Alas! not for long. The summer before college I got sick, and went through a hellacious period of my life for the next few months that crippled me mentally and physically for quite some time after. I did ****ty that first semester. After that, due to feeling like **** and doing ****tily (excuse my obsession with the word "****" at this juncture), I fell into an alternate-universe of depression and anxiety. For the next TWO semesters, I got pretty much F's across the board. I didn't attend school, even though I was enrolled; couldn't even tell you the names of my professors.

After that third semester, I had well below a 1.0 average. I had already decided at that point to leave school; like it mattered. I was suspended due to that performance (or perhaps lack thereof?). I decided to humble myself and see how unenjoyable life really could be if I wasn't lucky enough to be in college. So I worked part-time at a supermarket and went to a local CC and took 10 credits. I did very well (can't recall the GPA exactly, doesn't really matter I don't think.)

That was Spring 2006. I attended my old university that summer, and this past semester (Fall 2006). Since re-enrolling, I have a 3.91 GPA; my academic advisor called it the most drastic reversal she's ever seen, and she's no spring chicken. I thought it was pretty amusing to see "Dean's List" on the unofficial transcript right above "Second Reinstatement".

I'm no genius, by any means. But I do have the mental faculties to continue doing very well in school. Unfortunately, if I were to get a 4.0 average for every course I take until graduation time, I would still have around a 2.95 or something like that. Not much to show for all those sleepless nights and summer classes over the next 1.5 years or so, is it? And that 4.0 GPA is quite a theoretical one at that. So I've come up with an alternative plan. This is the phase of this long-winded, obnoxious thread where I hope you all will bestow some of that med student wisdom upon me!

I should work hard Spring 2007, Summer 2007, Fall 2007, Spring 2008, and Summer 2008. I will finish a bachelor's degree in something totally unrelated to medicine but interesting to me nonetheless (in this case, political science). In that course of time, I will also take General Chem I & II, and Calc I & II. So I should have a degree in Political Science most likely with a mid-to-high 2.xx GPA at the end of summer 2008, theoretically, as well as a couple of things needed for admission to medical school. Instead of wasting my time trying to get all my med school pre-reqs done, trying to raise that 2.xx (which is nearly impossible to get to over 3.0 short of a miracle and a LOT of classes), I should enroll at another college afterwards.

I think I should then pursue a second bachelor's at a different college, where I get a clean slate. This time I'll major in something else, I'm thinking chemistry. Schools here take 90 credits towards a second bachelor's. I will already have general chem I & II done, and calculus I & II. The way I drew it up, I could finish all the requirements for a B.A. in chemistry AND all the remaining requirements for med school (the bio's, physics', statistics, in addition to all the chems and whatnot) admission within 3 more semesters (which brings us to a grand total of.... the end of Fall 2009). Therefore, I'd graduate with a degree (again) in chemistry ~January 2010 (Jesus, that sounds far away...). Since GPA doesn't transfer, assuming I get awesome grades, I'll have a degree with a GPA that does the "new," me justice.

I just see no point in trying to change my major to something like chemistry at this point. My GPA is shot at my current university; it will never recover, no matter how well I do, and I have to accept that. And for one more semester more than a post-bac program, I'll have another trail of letters after my John Hancock.

So, wha'ts the verdict? I'd rather not transfer to another school and start over new at this point, because I think med schools would frown upon the fact that I'd be "downgrading" as far as academic rigor. In my area, the school I attend is considered the best, with the (fairly) distant second being exorbitantly expensive in comparison. Any opinions, wishes of luck, flames, jokes, "STFU n00b"'s, death threats, etc. will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance to everyone!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[spicedmanna]

Well, I hate to break it to you, bud, but there is a critical flaw in your scheme. You need to know right now that ALL of your undergraduate post-secondary classes count toward your total undergraduate GPA; there is no exception, usually. The AMCAS application service, the primary application for the majority of US medical schools, requires that ALL your transcripts be sent to them and that ALL of your post-secondary classes be listed. Then, AMCAS will average every single class into your GPA. You can't get away from it; there really is no wiping the slate clean, so to speak. Your grades are essentially a permanent fixture, no matter how long ago it was.

There is no easy route to medical school. You will need to do the work, if you want to be a doctor. You can opt to go to the Caribbean route, but you'll pay in spades while you are there, and when it comes time to match for your residency. Right now, your concern will be to do as well as you can in all of your classes; A's all the way through would be my recommendation. It doesn't matter what your major is; medical schools don't really care. Get your undergraduate GPA as high as possible within reason, then rock the MCAT, scoring above 30. Next, apply to a special master's program, and rock that. A special master's combined with a great MCAT score will help you to compensate for a very poor undergraduate performance.

Another possibility is to go the DO route, where you might be able to skip the SMP and apply straight out of having rocked the MCAT and gotten your undergraduate GPA as high as it can reasonably go. DO schools are more forgiving of past mistakes, given marked improvement and that the rest of your application is superior. Another advantage to the DO route is that the AACOMAS application service actually allows grade replacement, which will benefit you, no doubt.

Also, don't forget that you will need to accumulate volunteer/community service hours, as well as clinical experience. If you are going to go the DO route, you will also need to shadow a doctor, preferably a DO. Although, I think shadowing is good regardless of what route you take.

Good luck.

 

[Meatwad]

Thanks for the quick response

Yeah, I knew about that whole conundrum concerning me never being able to escape my past. The way I thought of it, though, was as follows:

There are plenty of kids who will have good MCATs and good grades. There will be some kids applying with sub 3.0 averages as well, probably. Since so many kids apply to med school, I'm sure adcoms have some sort of screening process where they don't even look at certain people's stories, no matter how amazing. You need a way to get your foot in the door, so to speak. I figured they'd see a high GPA for one degree, then see my awful grades, and make up their mind from there. However, having that better GPA degree would at least enable my application to be looked at and not automatically thrown out.

Is my logic flawed or does that make sense? Thanks everyone.

 

[spicedmanna]

Thanks for the quick response

Yeah, I knew about that whole conundrum concerning me never being able to escape my past. The way I thought of it, though, was as follows:

There are plenty of kids who will have good MCATs and good grades. There will be some kids applying with sub 3.0 averages as well, probably. Since so many kids apply to med school, I'm sure adcoms have some sort of screening process where they don't even look at certain people's stories, no matter how amazing. You need a way to get your foot in the door, so to speak. I figured they'd see a high GPA for one degree, then see my awful grades, and make up their mind from there. However, having that better GPA degree would at least enable my application to be looked at and not automatically thrown out.

Is my logic flawed or does that make sense? Thanks everyone.

Without doubt getting straight A's from now on will be very beneficial to your cause. Many schools will take that into consideration; they do look at trends. A few schools will simply screen you out based on your total undergraduate GPA (sorry to say, AMCAS lumps it all together). They don't break it down past undergraduate GPA (by freshman, sophomore, etc., and cummulative), post-baccalaureate undergraduate GPA, and graduate GPA. While Post-baccalaureate undergraduate GPA does get it's own line, it's all averaged into the cummulative undergraduate GPA also, and I think that's what gets fed into the GPA screens at the schools. So with that being the case, you needn't go to another school unless it is desired; it wouldn't make any difference, I don't think. You could choose to go for another bachelor's if you want, or you could do a formal or informal post-baccalaureate program. Now, I think if you get straight A's from now on, do your very best to compensate for your past performance, and score 30+ on your MCAT, you stand a chance. You will need to apply broadly, to as many schools as you can afford, and as early as possible. Again, some schools might screen you out, but that's why you apply to many schools. If you want to further enhance your chances, do the SMP. It's expensive, but it could help you a lot if you have already done what you can on your GPA and MCAT.

 

[Meatwad]

Without doubt getting straight A's from now on will be very beneficial to your cause. Many schools will take that into consideration. A few schools will simply screen you out based on your total undergraduate GPA (sorry to say, AMCAS lumps it all together). They don't break it down past undergraduate GPA, post-baccalaureate GPA, and graduate GPA. Post-baccalaureate work does get it's own line, but it's all averaged into undergraduate GPA also, and I think that's what gets fed into the GPA screens at the schools. Now, I think if you get straight A's from now on, do your very best to compensate for your past performance, and score 30+ on your MCAT, you stand a chance. You will need to apply broadly, to as many schools as you can afford, and as early as possible. Again, some schools might screen you out, but that's why you apply to many schools. If you want to further enhance your chances, do the SMP. It's expensive, but it could help you a lot if you have already done what you can on your GPA and MCAT.

Ahh, I see. I would definitely apply broadly, and wouldn't be heartbroken with a D.O. school. Thanks again!

 

[spicedmanna]

Ahh, I see. I would definitely apply broadly, and wouldn't be heartbroken with a D.O. school. Thanks again!

I truly wish you all the luck in the world. Keep doing good work and don't quit until you've achieved your goal. I believe that if your heart is into it, and you do what is necessary, it's only a matter of time before you get into medical school.

 

[Meatwad]

I truly wish you all the luck in the world. Keep doing good work and don't quit until you've achieved your goal. I believe that if your heart is into it, and you do what is necessary, it's only a matter of time before you get into medical school.

I agree with you 100%, if you put everything you have into something, you WILL accomplish it no matter how the odds are stacked against you. I wish you the best of luck in your quest to becoming a doctor as well (unless, of course, I'm already speaking with Dr. Spicedmanna )!

 

[lilnoelle]

I would advise against graduating and going to a different school. Once you've graduated, you lose any opportunity for scholarships or loans. In addition to this, getting one degree and then running out and getting a completely different degree immediately might seem like you are uncertain about what you want. I would hold onto that first degree as long as you can to bring your GPA up as high as you can (I think scholarships and grants will allow five years to get UG degree). It seems like a bit of a waste of time, but you could always retake all of your first year's courses so a DO program will look at the second grade and not the failing grade.

 

[Meatwad]

I would advise against graduating and going to a different school. Once you've graduated, you lose any opportunity for scholarships or loans. In addition to this, getting one degree and then running out and getting a completely different degree immediately might seem like you are uncertain about what you want. I would hold onto that first degree as long as you can to bring your GPA up as high as you can (I think scholarships and grants will allow five years to get UG degree). It seems like a bit of a waste of time, but you could always retake all of your first year's courses so a DO program will look at the second grade and not the failing grade.

Hmm, I see; but even if DO schools are more forgiving and look at the second grade, it wouldn't change the fact I might not get past their screens due to a low GPA, would it? However, replacing all those F's with A's would be helpful. I suppose it would balance out to C's when it factored into my GPA, then. Of course, it's past 2 A.M. so perhaps my reasoning is a bit fuzzy at the moment.

 

[lilnoelle]

Hmm, I see; but even if DO schools are more forgiving and look at the second grade, it wouldn't change the fact I might not get past their screens due to a low GPA, would it? However, replacing all those F's with A's would be helpful. I suppose it would balance out to C's when it factored into my GPA, then. Of course, it's past 2 A.M. so perhaps my reasoning is a bit fuzzy at the moment.

Hey, does anyone know for sure? I thought when DO schools figure up GPA, they completely disregard the poorer score. Can anyone confirm?

The GPA the schools see is not the one from your transcript, it is an adjusted grade based on AAMC and AACOMS (?) guidelines. Basically when you apply, you enter in every course you've ever taken and they figure up your GPA for you. Now you have to send your transcripts in to confirm, but the GPA isn't taken straight from the transcripts.

 

[spicedmanna]

Hey, does anyone know for sure? I thought when DO schools figure up GPA, they completely disregard the poorer score. Can anyone confirm?

The GPA the schools see is not the one from your transcript, it is an adjusted grade based on AAMC and AACOMS (?) guidelines. Basically when you apply, you enter in every course you've ever taken and they figure up your GPA for you. Now you have to send your transcripts in to confirm, but the GPA isn't taken straight from the transcripts.

I believe you are correct. It's all hocus-pocus to me, but I believe that your grade actually gets replaced in the AACOMAS by the last repeat. The old grades don't count in the GPA. This is my understanding of it. I would call AACOM to get the actual official scoop on repeats, as they suggest. My overall AACOMAS GPA ended up higher than my AMCAS GPA for that reason. For the AMCAS, however, they average all your grades in together. Here is the actual instructions for the AACOMAS transcript section regarding repeats:

Repeat: Courses repeated for academic improvement or grade change must be listed each time taken. Courses repeated for additional credit, but not for a better grade, such as physical education or chorus, are not considered a repeat. Applicants should list the original class as a repeat i.e. "Repeat" and then list the final time it is taken as "Last Repeat". All repeated courses should be coded in sequence. Please see the examples below:

Example 1

Fall Semester 1999 ENGL 1113 English Composition I: Code as "Repeat 01"
Spring Semester 2001 ENGL 1113 English Composition I: Code as "Last Repeat 01"

Example 2

Fall Semester 2000 CHEM 3153 Organic Chemistry I: Code as "Repeat 02"
Fall Semester 2001 CHEM 3153 Organic Chemistry I: Code as "Last Repeat 02"

Please contact the AACOMAS office ([email protected]) if you have any questions about repeated courses.

In either case, all of your courses are listed and confirmed with your official transcripts. Your transcript GPA is not the same as your calculated AACOMAS, or AMCAS GPA.

 

[lilnoelle]

In either case, all of your courses are listed and confirmed with your official transcripts. Your transcript GPA is not the same as your calculated AACOMAS, or AMCAS GPA.

But med schools don't even see the actual transcript (unless they require one at matriculation like mine did) all they see is the AACOMAS grade, which could be a very good thing for our OP.

 

[spicedmanna]

Here is further confirmation from AACOMAS:

GPA and Credit Hour Computations: We recommend you
compute your GPAs and credit hours, but do not submit them with
your application materials. Use this information to verify the
accuracy of your Applicant Profile when received.
Compute your GPA and credit hour totals for science, nonscience,
and combined, as well as by year. The Science category
would include all courses with subject codes of B, O T S, P, and I.
Non-science would include courses with subject codes of M, E, H,
and N. Use the grade values given above for the AACOMAS
grading system. Courses with AACOMAS grades of P, N, and G
are not included in GPA calculations. When computing repeated
courses, only count the last time you repeated the course.
Calculations should be rounded to decimal places.

 

[spicedmanna]

But med schools don't even see the actual transcript (unless they require one at matriculation like mine did) all they see is the AACOMAS grade, which could be a very good thing for our OP.

You are right, medical schools would see what's in the AACOMAS profile, and that's quite good, indeed, for our OP. Thanks for clarifying.

Both application services require you to enter all of your classwork, which the application services then verify using your original transcript(s), to come up with their own official listing and calculated GPA's that the medical schools then see. Medical schools use your official AACOMAS or AMCAS profile for the admissions process.

 

[Meatwad]

That is encouraging news indeed. So would it suffice to say my wisest course of action would be to re-take as many classes as possible?

Another note: Let's say one took Biology I or something and wanted to re-take it, but instead they re-took it at another school (where it was considered a 1-to-1 transfer). The AACOMAS wouldn't consider that a re-take, or would they? That's a tricky one, but unfortunately they rpobably don't think of it as retaking, just as taking a new course. What do you guys think?

BTW, thank you both for your activity in here!

 

[spicedmanna]

That is encouraging news indeed. So would it suffice to say my wisest course of action would be to re-take as many classes as possible?

Well, Zolar, I cannot fully say with certainty what your wisest move will be. You will need to take all the information and feel out what seems best. If you are planning on applying to DO schools, then it would be beneficial to repeat classes in which you failed or received a poor grade, due to the grade replacement/GPA calculation policy. Keep in mind that although AACOMAS allows grade replacement, you will want to find out from them directly if there is a ceiling. I'm not sure about that at all because I didn't come across it myself, but I do remember there being limited numbers on the repeats (there was a drop down box where you pick "repeat X"); it was a pretty high number, but finite. I remember thinking, why have a drop down box with limited numbers, unless there are a finite number of repeats allowed? But this could have been just poor design on their part.

In addition to repeating your classes, you'll also want to do well in more advanced science classes. You want to show as completely as possible that you are a changed person, capable of ongoing excellent academic work.

Another note: Let's say one took Biology I or something and wanted to re-take it, but instead they re-took it at another school (where it was considered a 1-to-1 transfer). The AACOMAS wouldn't consider that a re-take, or would they? That's a tricky one, but unfortunately they rpobably don't think of it as retaking, just as taking a new course. What do you guys think?

I don't know. I never came across this myself. I would recommend contacting AACOM to find out for sure:

https://aacomas.aacom.org/applicants2007/help/contactus.htm

BTW, thank you both for your activity in here!

Glad I could be of assistance. Good luck in your endeavors.

 

[lilnoelle]

That is encouraging news indeed. So would it suffice to say my wisest course of action would be to re-take as many classes as possible?

Another note: Let's say one took Biology I or something and wanted to re-take it, but instead they re-took it at another school (where it was considered a 1-to-1 transfer). The AACOMAS wouldn't consider that a re-take, or would they? That's a tricky one, but unfortunately they rpobably don't think of it as retaking, just as taking a new course. What do you guys think?

BTW, thank you both for your activity in here!

I don't know. I was wondering the same thing last night. Part of me thinks they would count it as a retake - afterall, someone who has been out of school for 5-10 years isn't necessarily going to be able to go back to the exact school they attended previously and retake the exact same course. However, I could see how they might not want consider a course at a different school as a retake, i.e. not all schools have exact crossover in their content for instance, my UG had two different genetics courses, one for your avg joe who needed a science credit and one for biology majors. There was a huge difference in content, but the names didn't really indicate that.
I think this is one that you will need to call AACOMAS to get a direct answer for.

Good luck!

 

[Meatwad]

Thanks for the links, I'll try contacting them regarding their policies on the aforementioned items.

I realize no one here can say with great certainty what I should do, but the comments so far I've received have already made me re-consider my path. It has helped a great deal, especially now since you say I should consider taking advanced science courses. Maybe I'll just finish my bacehlor's in something more science oriented, and then get a master's or enter into a SMP I've heard so much about, if I could.

Once again, no matter what you guys say, I am getting a benefit from the comments; so thanks.

 

[Meatwad]

I don't know. I was wondering the same thing last night. Part of me thinks they would count it as a retake - afterall, someone who has been out of school for 5-10 years isn't necessarily going to be able to go back to the exact school they attended previously and retake the exact same course. However, I could see how they might not want consider a course at a different school as a retake, i.e. not all schools have exact crossover in their content for instance, my UG had two different genetics courses, one for your avg joe who needed a science credit and one for biology majors. There was a huge difference in content, but the names didn't really indicate that.
I think this is one that you will need to call AACOMAS to get a direct answer for.

Yeah, my university is real annoying with the way they structure science and math. For example, they have 4 different physics tracks; one for bio majors, one for people more into math & engineering (but they split Physics I & II into 3 courses!), Physics I & II (quite difficult to place into out of high school, I did very well in math & science and still didn't get in), and then honors Physics I & II! So for courses like that, I'm sure it wouldn't count as an equivelant with any other school. They use the same assinine setup for calculus; introductory calculus, calculus split into 3 courses, calculus I & II, Honors calc I & II, applied calculus I & II, and honors applied calc I & II; SIX CALCULUS TRACKS!!!

^ One of the disadvantages of going to a huge school with strong competition in science & math.

 

[Kateb4]

Hey Zolar,
I'm in a similar situation as you. My first semester at college I found out I had cancer, and sort of didn't give school much attention for the next few years. I got my GPA up to about a 3.0 now, so I'm hoping that will be enough for me! I have talked to admissions represesntatives and they want you to adress the problem upfront. I am going to go to a DO school, and they told me the same thing about retaking classes, I actually cannot retake some of my F's because they are no longer offered (think windows 95 at a CC that I never attended) so I'm going to be stuck with a GPA in the low 3's. Also, they look at your most recent work first, so even if you can take some post-bacc classes that would help! My backup is the grad program route. CCOM has a Masters in Biomedical Sciences that has essentially the same curriculum as the first year med program. If you get into that and do well, it is a big help for admission to the med program after the first year.

Let me know what you hear about retakes from a different school, because most of my retakes are that way, and when I was putting my grades into AACOMAS I didn't code them as retakes, hoping that I can go change that! (not that it matters now, I'm waiting another year to apply)

 

[Meatwad]

Hey Zolar,
I'm in a similar situation as you. My first semester at college I found out I had cancer, and sort of didn't give school much attention for the next few years. I got my GPA up to about a 3.0 now, so I'm hoping that will be enough for me! I have talked to admissions represesntatives and they want you to adress the problem upfront. I am going to go to a DO school, and they told me the same thing about retaking classes, I actually cannot retake some of my F's because they are no longer offered (think windows 95 at a CC that I never attended) so I'm going to be stuck with a GPA in the low 3's. Also, they look at your most recent work first, so even if you can take some post-bacc classes that would help! My backup is the grad program route. CCOM has a Masters in Biomedical Sciences that has essentially the same curriculum as the first year med program. If you get into that and do well, it is a big help for admission to the med program after the first year.

Let me know what you hear about retakes from a different school, because most of my retakes are that way, and when I was putting my grades into AACOMAS I didn't code them as retakes, hoping that I can go change that! (not that it matters now, I'm waiting another year to apply)

Sure thing, I'll update you when I get an answer

I'm sure you've went through a lot, and since your GPA is over a 3, I'm sure you'll be achieving your goal in no time, good luck!

 

[Meatwad]

Hey Zolar,
I'm in a similar situation as you. My first semester at college I found out I had cancer, and sort of didn't give school much attention for the next few years. I got my GPA up to about a 3.0 now, so I'm hoping that will be enough for me! I have talked to admissions represesntatives and they want you to adress the problem upfront. I am going to go to a DO school, and they told me the same thing about retaking classes, I actually cannot retake some of my F's because they are no longer offered (think windows 95 at a CC that I never attended) so I'm going to be stuck with a GPA in the low 3's. Also, they look at your most recent work first, so even if you can take some post-bacc classes that would help! My backup is the grad program route. CCOM has a Masters in Biomedical Sciences that has essentially the same curriculum as the first year med program. If you get into that and do well, it is a big help for admission to the med program after the first year.

Let me know what you hear about retakes from a different school, because most of my retakes are that way, and when I was putting my grades into AACOMAS I didn't code them as retakes, hoping that I can go change that! (not that it matters now, I'm waiting another year to apply)

Here's the update on the retake situation:

The AACOMAS just e-mailed me today and said as long as the credit hours are the same or greater (meaning the retake has more credits, obviously), then it will replace the grade. I'm skeptical, but I made the question pretty clear so hopefully he understood.

 

[southpawcannon]

Here's the update on the retake situation:

The AACOMAS just e-mailed me today and said as long as the credit hours are the same or greater (meaning the retake has more credits, obviously), then it will replace the grade. I'm skeptical, but I made the question pretty clear so hopefully he understood.

I took some time out tonight to read all the responses to the OP's question. Very informative in helping me rationalize how to go about getting my courses done and getting the GPA up. I needed to do a lot more reading on the AMCAS and AACOMAS sites to fully understand the application process. I'll be doing a few repeats as well.