Supreme Court Ruling, Race based admissions.

[senecca]

7-Year B.S./M.D. Program

From what it seems like, it is only automatic interviews if you completed everything including AMCAS. I guess the interview might be a bit of a formality but still, I would not say it is an automatic acceptance.

They rejected only one person after the interview in the 30 years.

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[darkamgine]

These type of anomalies are the biggest elephant in the room. The current medschool admissions leaves so much room for subjective factors, chance and potential bias based on the moods of the adcoms who interviews, Essay readers and admissions committee, adding elements of unpredictability to the selection outcomes. Some Med school having ~15000 applicants and mere 1% to be selected with so many orthogonal parameters like GPA, MCAT, Essays, Extracurricular, interview etc., lots of students are literally playing Russian roulette. They need quantifiable system, at least something like LizzyM score. A good system is the one that eliminates uncertainty. The countries where med school students who get into medschool after highschool with a single competitive entrance exams are producing good doctors as well. Infact US citizen opt for medical tourism to go to those countries and get treated. If the American medschool admission doesn't improve, this will further break American healthcare system.

Its an issue but I don't think it is the elephant in the room. Just from the stats, if of people who have 3.8+ gpa and 518+ MCAT, 88% of them get in. Of the people who don't, I am willing to bet that some aspect of their LORs, ECs, interviews, school selection, or something else was not stellar/up to par. Let's say they applied to 20 schools and got 6 interviews and a couple waitlists. Is it the school's fault that they got waitlisted or rejected? Does AAMC need to force schools to take these students? I personally experienced the unpredictability but each school has finite resources for interviews and slots. This is one reason yield protection is, as bad as it seems, used by many schools. It takes a lot of time and money to prepare interviews and you need to convince schools to interview you, not the other way around. There are more qualified students than slots so there will be qualified students who do not get a spot. It happens.

The harsh reality is schools can choose who they want as long as they aren't blatantly discriminatory. There are way more qualified individuals than slots and schools can shuffle students. Harvard could reject all the students they would have admitted and accept the people off what would have been the waitlist instead and probably see no difference in their class profile and outcome. How it choose the final class is going to subjective. Almost every school encounters this problem to a degree because there are too many qualified applicants and it needs to accept a large number of students while students then choose their final school. Waitlist shuffle is going to be somewhat luck dependent as who knows what other people's decisions are. The truth is that the school basically loses nothing by selecting one qualified vs another. The value of a medical student is money to the school and now you are part of its reputation. You need to convince the school why they should select you over others.

Therefore, while individual school acceptance is luck, if you have enough good schools that fit your profile, you have a good chance overall.

 

[darkamgine]

Essays could be hacked by college and professional pre-med advisors. But Interviews are real thing to understand the interpersonal skills. Only problem with interviews are there is some level of uncertainty based on type of interviewers and the day in which the candidate interviews. There is a natural noise in every system ( Something called SNR : signal to noise ratio ). The signal is the true attribute you want to capture in and random noise sometime distorts that signal. The best way to remove the bias from noise is taking more samples. Each school having their own interview and don't look at other school's interview comments creates more uncertainty.

If my statement about SNR is confusing, please ask your Math professor the following. Again here, we are just talking about removing uncertainity in interview and not eliminate interviews.

Imagine you are a student applying to three different schools. Each school holds three separate interviews with you, and, as with any interview process, there's a degree of uncertainty in each. Every school receives applications from the similar pool of 15,000 students and aims to select just 150. Similar pool is because students tends to apply for similar schools based on OOS or Instate friendly, MCAT/GPA and EC. Now consider two scenarios:

(A) Each school makes its selection of 150 students independently, without sharing the results of the interviews with the other schools.

(B) All three schools collectively decide and select a total of 450 students, based on shared interview results.

Which scenario, (A) or (B), do you think would yield less uncertainty or unpredictability in the admissions process?

(A) is fine. Your (B) is going to be even more subjective in some cases. What if you have applicant who had stellar interviews at X and Y but a bad interview for whatever reason at Z? Will the interview at Z affect the chances at X and Y? One bad interview will doom this applicant whereas he would probably have good chances with situation (A)?

Also sharing where you interview is super bad for the applicant. If someone interviews at a lower tier school and they see that they got interviewed by higher ranked schools, guess what happens. Yield protection. I don't want one school's decision or interview to affect another school's like that.

Edit: Another appropriate analog is dating. Would you rather date people individually or date multiple people at the same time/share information with your dates about your other dates?

 

[SnailPo]

Essays could be hacked by college and professional pre-med advisors. But Interviews are real thing to understand the interpersonal skills. Only problem with interviews are there is some level of uncertainty based on type of interviewers and the day in which the candidate interviews. There is a natural noise in every system ( Something called SNR : signal to noise ratio ). The signal is the true attribute you want to capture in and random noise sometime distorts that signal. The best way to remove the bias from noise is taking more samples. Each school having their own interview and don't look at other school's interview comments creates more uncertainty.

If my statement about SNR is confusing, please ask your Math professor the following. Again here, we are just talking about removing uncertainity in interview and not eliminate interviews.

Imagine you are a student applying to three different schools. Each school holds three separate interviews with you, and, as with any interview process, there's a degree of uncertainty in each. Every school receives applications from the similar pool of 15,000 students and aims to select just 150. Similar pool is because students tends to apply for similar schools based on OOS or Instate friendly, MCAT/GPA and EC. Now consider two scenarios:

(A) Each school makes its selection of 150 students independently, without sharing the results of the interviews with the other schools.

(B) All three schools collectively decide and select a total of 450 students, based on shared interview results.

Which scenario, (A) or (B), do you think would yield less uncertainty or unpredictability in the admissions process?

I understand the SNR as described.

Are you advocating for schools to start communicating with each other about applicants’ interview performance? What happens to the applicants who only get one interview?

Having multiple interviews within one school, albeit tiring (from personal experience), is not a bad idea for the reasons of reducing uncertainty you mentioned. Maybe the applicant didn’t have the best interview with one person but excels in the next one. However, the problem with inter-school communication is introducing too many people, which can exacerbate the issue of uncertainty. If the three different schools in your scenario establish different missions for their school, why should one schools standards determine admission fit for a different school? What if an applicant has great interviews for school 1, mid interviews for school 2 and bad interviews for school 3? Why/How should those bad interviews from school 3 disqualify an applicant from school 1?

My answer is A because option B to me seems to compound the issue of uncertainty.

 

[sugasathya]

(A) is fine. Your (B) is going to be even more subjective in some cases. What if you have applicant who had stellar interviews at X and Y but a bad interview for whatever reason at Z? Will the interview at Z affect the chances at X and Y? One bad interview will doom this applicant whereas he would probably have good chances with situation (A)?

Also sharing where you interview is super bad for the applicant. If someone interviews at a lower tier school and they see that they got interviewed by higher ranked schools, guess what happens. Yield protection. I don't want one school's decision or interview to affect another school's like that.

That's why I asked to check how it reduces uncertainty with a Math professor. One bad interview will not doom. When the school looks at overall interview results, they will discount the bias. Also I mentioned similar Stats/pool ( like in LizzyM university category ).

 

[2024 or 5 ?]

*sigh* time for me to trot out this again.

View attachment 373775

Goro,

Absolutely appreciate your advise. It has been wonderful and spot on.

Even the best get in wrong every now and then.

But you are 100% wrong with this cartoon. A better example would be the girl pushing the guy off of a chair, and kicking him when he is down.

"It's an accreditation requirement for med schools to have a diverse class." This is code for institutional racism against asian and white students. As diversity is now only defined by skin color.

Still love ya, Goro, and am thankful for all of your help!

 

[SnailPo]

Goro,

Absolutely appreciate your advise. It has been wonderful and spot on.

Even the best get in wrong every now and then.

But you are 100% wrong with this cartoon. A better example would be the girl pushing the guy off of a chair, and kicking him when he is down.

"It's an accreditation requirement for med schools to have a diverse class." This is code for institutional racism against asian and white students. As diversity is now only defined by skin color.

Still love ya, Goro, and am thankful for all of your help!

Where is the “kicking him when he is down” scenario occurring?

 

[senecca]

Essays could be hacked by college and professional pre-med advisors. But Interviews are real thing to understand the interpersonal skills. Only problem with interviews are there is some level of uncertainty based on type of interviewers and the day in which the candidate interviews. There is a natural noise in every system ( Something called SNR : signal to noise ratio ). The signal is the true attribute you want to capture in and random noise sometime distorts that signal. The best way to remove the bias from noise is taking more samples. Each school having their own interview and don't look at other school's interview comments creates more uncertainty.

If my statement about SNR is confusing, please ask your Math professor the following. Again here, we are just talking about removing uncertainity in interview and not eliminate interviews.

Imagine you are a student applying to three different schools. Each school holds three separate interviews with you, and, as with any interview process, there's a degree of uncertainty in each. Every school receives applications from the similar pool of 15,000 students and aims to select just 150. Similar pool is because students tends to apply for similar schools based on OOS or Instate friendly, MCAT/GPA and EC. Now consider two scenarios:

(A) Each school makes its selection of 150 students independently, without sharing the results of the interviews with the other schools.

(B) All three schools collectively decide and select a total of 450 students, based on shared interview results.

Which scenario, (A) or (B), do you think would yield less uncertainty or unpredictability in the admissions process?

A while back I suggested that just like conducting mcat for all medical schools, aamc should interview all applicants before they apply and upload them with their applications along with scores. They can use 4-5 interviewers on the board. IMO, the interview thing is overrated. Just do a background check and move on. I don’t think that there is magic way to determine how good a physician will be. If someone gets 4 interviews and get acceptance (most of the Asian American matriculants fall in this category), he is going to be a doctor even though three schools thought he won’t be.

Also, AAMC should get rid of the college specific secondary essays and come up with 3-5 essays and let the applicants write them under proctored environment. A team of 3-5 people can score them and upload them with individual applications. Writing 100s pages of secondaries is torturous. I can’t imagine how some applicants manage to do it for three or four cycles . Unbelievable.

 

[darkamgine]

A while back I suggested that just like conducting mcat for all medical schools, aamc should interview all applicants before they apply and upload them with their applications along with scores. They can use 4-5 interviewers on the board. IMO, the interview thing is overrated. Just do a background check and move on. I don’t think that there is magic way to determine how good a physician will be. If someone gets 4 interviews and get acceptance (most of the Asian American matriculants fall in this category), he is going to be a doctor even though three schools thought he won’t be.

Also, AAMC should get rid of the college specific secondary essays and come up with 3-5 essays and let the applicants write them under proctored environment. A team of 3-5 people can score them and upload them with individual applications. Writing 100s pages of secondaries is torturous. I can’t imagine how some applicants manage to do it for three or four cycles . Unbelievable.

You are making interviews and secondaries into almost a standardized test which completely defeats the purpose.

 

[sugasathya]

A while back I suggested that just like conducting mcat for all medical schools, aamc should interview all applicants before they apply and upload them with their applications along with scores. They can use 4-5 interviewers on the board. IMO, the interview thing is overrated. Just do a background check and move on. I don’t think that there is magic way to determine how good a physician will be. If someone gets 4 interviews and get acceptance (most of the Asian American matriculants fall in this category), he is going to be a doctor even though three schools thought he won’t be.

Also, AAMC should get rid of the college specific secondary essays and come up with 3-5 essays and let the applicants write them under proctored environment. A team of 3-5 people can score them and upload them with individual applications. Writing 100s pages of secondaries is torturous. I can’t imagine how some applicants manage to do it for three or four cycles . Unbelievable.

Makes sense. I wonder who benefits out of the current tedious process ?

 

[SnailPo]

You are making interviews and secondaries into almost a standardized test which completely defeats the purpose.

Also another way for AAMC to finesse more money out of us

 

[sugasathya]

I understand the SNR as described.

Are you advocating for schools to start communicating with each other about applicants’ interview performance? What happens to the applicants who only get one interview?

Having multiple interviews within one school, albeit tiring (from personal experience), is not a bad idea for the reasons of reducing uncertainty you mentioned. Maybe the applicant didn’t have the best interview with one person but excels in the next one. However, the problem with inter-school communication is introducing too many people, which can exacerbate the issue of uncertainty. If the three different schools in your scenario establish different missions for their school, why should one schools standards determine admission fit for a different school? What if an applicant has great interviews for school 1, mid interviews for school 2 and bad interviews for school 3? Why/How should those bad interviews from school 3 disqualify an applicant from school 1?

My answer is A because option B to me seems to compound the issue of uncertainty.

You brought some outliers in the gaussian distribution of the data based on the current system. If you ask any Math professor they'll explain you about product of 3 independent probability ratio vs single probability ratio and how option B reduces uncertainty.

 

[darkamgine]

You brought some outliers in the data based on the current system. If you ask your Math professor he'll explain you about product of 3 independent probability ratio vs single probability ratio and how option B reduces uncertainty.

And med schools don't really care what your math professor tells them about probability and uncertainty. They just want to select the students they feel will fit into their school. The admissions and interview process is up to the school. I just don't think having schools share interview information between each other is good for the students.

When applicants are asked where they have interviewed and have applied to during interviews, it is an uncomfortable and sometimes awkward question. Now you are just opening that can of worms and even having them share interview information.

 

[SnailPo]

You brought some outliers in the gaussian distribution of the data based on the current system. If you ask your Math professor he'll explain you about product of 3 independent probability ratio vs single probability ratio and how option B reduces uncertainty.

I graduated two years ago and my math professor no longer works for my university.

Also, I think most med schools are gonna go with the Occam’s Razor principle, and I don‘t think adding more work for them with regards to admissions is gonna do that.

 

[sugasathya]

I graduated two years ago and my math professor no longer works for my university.

Also, I think most med schools are gonna go with the Occam’s Razor principle, and I don‘t think adding more work for them with regards to admissions is gonna do that.

It's reducing work. Centralization reduces amount of work and improve efficiency.

 

[darkamgine]

It's reducing work. Centralization reduces amount of work and improve efficiency.

It's not reducing work. It is going to make things super complicated. Are schools not going to do rolling decisions? Wait for everyone to finish interviewing? Will students now have to go to every interview? Then is your first interview going to be weighted the same as your last interview? Nah, it is going to be worse than what it is now.

 

[SnailPo]

It's reducing work. Centralization reduces amount of work and improve efficiency.

Not if the proposal is to ask schools to connect with other schools to evaluate interview performance. That can delay decisions if the applicant receives interviews at different times in the cycle. Where’s the efficiency in that?

 

[Goro]

. I just don't think having schools share interview information between each other is good for the students.

Schools that would share interview information bring up the issue of collusion. This is why it is not done.

This is, in fact, why the CTE Decision was added to the app cycle after acceptances. Med schools used to find out where you were accepted via AAMCS, and made decisions accordingly.

 

[senecca]

You are making interviews and secondaries into almost a standardized test which completely defeats the purpose.

I am someone who believes in objectivity. There is nothing wrong in looking for alternatives and make the process easy , quick, painless and fair for everyone.

It is known to everyone that applicants are not writing the essays on their own. They use friends, counselors, physicians, paid advisers etc. Some people even use the essays of the successful applicants as the basis . Nobody knows what percentage of the effort in writing the essays belong to the applicants. Then, what is the point of judging him based on those essays? If they were done in the proctored environment, we can be 100% sure. Also, forcing applicants to write 100s pages of essays is criminal and torture.

As I said, we are making too much out of these interview process. Let AAMC check if the applicants can communicate well. I don’t understand what else the medical schools look for in an applicant. It is like shooting in dark, some get lucky and some don’t .

 

[senecca]

Makes sense. I wonder who benefits out of the current tedious process ?

I believe no one.

 

[darkamgine]

I am someone who believes in objectivity. There is nothing wrong in looking for alternatives and make the process easy , quick, painless and fair for everyone.

It is known to everyone that applicants are not writing the essays on their own. They use friends, counselors, physicians, paid advisers etc. Some people even use the essays of the successful applicants as the basis . Nobody knows what percentage of the effort in writing the essays belong to the applicants. Then, what is the point of judging him based on those essays? If they were done in the proctored environment, we can be 100% sure. Also, forcing applicants to write 100s pages of essays is criminal and torture.

As I said, we are making too much out of these interview process. Let AAMC check if the applicants can communicate well. I don’t understand what else the medical schools look for in an applicant. It is like shooting in dark, some get lucky and some don’t .

I sent you a message about things regarding what some medical schools are looking for. I hope it changes some of your perspectives.

Nothing is going to be 100% objective but it isn't all luck either.

 

[darkamgine]

I believe no one.

Wait until you encounter the tedious stuff in medical school. Depending on your curriculum, you might spend hours writing essays just because the school told you so.

 

[Goro]

Comments?

With End of Affirmative Action, a Push for a New Tool: Adversity Scores

To build a diverse class of students, the medical school at U.C. Davis ranks applicants by the disadvantages they have faced. Can it work nationally?

www.nytimes.com

 

[darkamgine]

Comments?

With End of Affirmative Action, a Push for a New Tool: Adversity Scores

To build a diverse class of students, the medical school at U.C. Davis ranks applicants by the disadvantages they have faced. Can it work nationally?

www.nytimes.com

In the Davis scale, first used in 2012, eight categories establish an adversity score for each candidate. Factors include family income, whether applicants come from an underserved area, whether they help support their nuclear families and whether their parents went to college.

The higher an applicant rates on the disadvantage scale, the bigger the boost.

I think the idea of a score is fine. The question will be its implementation and how it compares to the current.

 

[sugasathya]

Not if the proposal is to ask schools to connect with other schools to evaluate interview performance. That can delay decisions if the applicant receives interviews at different times in the cycle. Where’s the efficiency in that?

Again you are talking about with respect to current process where schools involved. A centralization process will rank the students based on something like LizzyM score (Variable weights on each category -> Interview, GPA, MCAT, adversity, Clinical, Research, difficulty to score in a particular undergrad School etc). Then the students will rank thier universities. The universities will pick the top LizzyM type score who picked their schools based on the rank. Something similar to matching process, but much more quantifiable and reduces student who has great credentials to fall out in current process. Currently the metholdogy I mentioned has some correlation when you look at MSAR ( Like NYU, Harvard, Yale having median of 520+/3.9+)., but centralization will reduces uncertainty for most deserving candidates.

 

[darkamgine]

Again you are talking about with respect to current process where schools involved. A centralization process will rank the students based on something like LizzyM score (Variable weights on each category -> Interview, GPA, MCAT, adversity, Clinical, Research, difficulty to score in a particular undergrad School etc). Then the students will rank thier universities. The universities will pick the top LizzyM type score who picked their schools based on the rank. Something similar to matching process, but much more quantifiable and reduces student who has great credentials to fall out in current process. Currently the metholdogy has some correlation when you look at MSAR., but reduces uncertainity.

So you want to overhaul the current process completely. And then make it easier for top applicants (who already have a huge advantage in rolling admissions). What do the medical schools gain from this? You do know admissions is a way to make money for these schools.

I feel like some pre-meds here are still a bit naive. The admission process is not to make it easy for you, the applicant. It is to cater to the medical schools. If someone slips through the cracks, the medical schools aren't crying about it. Think of them as individual businesses rather than a service. They exist to select students they want to educate and represent them. Most of them charge tuition far higher than is required. They are not going to lose sleep if they miss a very good applicant. However, someone who falls through the cracks will spend a year in misery because he/she is going to miss out.

 

[sugasathya]

So you want to overhaul the current process completely. And then make it easier for top applicants (who already have a huge advantage in rolling admissions). What do the medical schools gain from this? You do know admissions is a way to make money for these schools.

I feel like some pre-meds here are still a bit naive. The admission process is not to make it easy for you, the applicant. It is to cater to the medical schools. If someone slips through the cracks, the medical schools aren't crying about it. Think of them as individual businesses rather than a service. They exist to select students they want to educate and represent them. Most of them charge tuition far higher than is required. They are not going to lose sleep if they miss a very good applicant. However, someone who falls through the cracks will spend a year in misery because he/she is going to miss out.

Thanks for pointing this -> "What do the medical schools gain from this? You do know admissions is a way to make money for these schools. "


This is precisely why the current process is so wrong.

 

[SnailPo]

Again you are talking about with respect to current process where schools involved. A centralization process will rank the students based on something like LizzyM score (Variable weights on each category -> Interview, GPA, MCAT, adversity, Clinical, Research, difficulty to score in a particular undergrad School etc). Then the students will rank thier universities. The universities will pick the top LizzyM type score who picked their schools based on the rank. Something similar to matching process, but much more quantifiable and reduces student who has great credentials to fall out in current process. Currently the metholdogy I mentioned has some correlation when you look at MSAR ( Like NYU, Harvard, Yale having median of 520+/3.9+)., but centralization will reduces uncertainty for most deserving candidates.

You didn’t specify centralization earlier. You were discussing how to revamp the interview process.

Would there be an equivalent SOAP for those who don’t match into a medical school and for programs with unfilled seats? What would a waitlist look like or would that be eliminated? An issue I have with proposing a ”med school match” process is that the applicants aren’t applying to jobs where they get paid. They’re applying to schools that they’re paying for. It doesn’t incentivize having choices because the choice will be made for them, and many people determine their school based on their financial situation.

How many students with great credentials are being rejected over students who don’t meet the credentials for the school they’re applying to?

 

[senecca]

Thanks for pointing this -> "What do the medical schools gain from this? You do know admissions is a way to make money for these schools. "


This is precisely why the current process is so wrong.

You hit the nail on its head . Unless the focus is shifted to the applicants, nothing will change. After all, they are the ones going to serve the population. That’s how the things are over the rest of the world. We are the exception.

 

[eigen]

You hit the nail on its head . Unless the focus is shifted to the applicants, nothing will change. After all, they are the ones going to serve the population.

The focus shouldn’t be on applicants or the school.

The focus should be on patients.

If this concept is not clear to you, I would suggest taking some time to think on it. One thing I notice a lot in strong applications, irrespective of their stats, is that they have narratives that center their future patients.

 

[Kierkegaard's Bud]

You hit the nail on its head . Unless the focus is shifted to the applicants, nothing will change. After all, they are the ones going to serve the population. That’s how the things are over the rest of the world. We are the exception.

 

[senecca]

The focus shouldn’t be on applicants or the school.

The focus should be on patients.

If this concept is not clear to you, I would suggest taking some time to think on it. One thing I notice a lot in strong applications, irrespective of their stats, is that they have narratives that center their future patients.

I am talking about the application process. Of course, the physicians are there to serve the population.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

In fact US citizen opt for medical tourism to go to those countries and get treated.

Just a comment on the sentence.

Not those who are underserved and marginalized without the means. It is also a social prerogative that these patients get quality access and care.

And withholding issues about how US Healthcare is set up. We don't need to discuss single payer.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Essays could be hacked by college and professional pre-med advisors. But Interviews are real thing to understand the interpersonal skills. Only problem with interviews are there is some level of uncertainty based on type of interviewers and the day in which the candidate interviews. There is a natural noise in every system...

Third time is the charm. More SJT’S are coming!

Show Me About Yourself: Virtual Interviewing Platforms for Health Professions Programs - SDN

The Student Doctor Network provides free tools, resources, and advising services to help students become health professionals.

www.studentdoctor.net

And schools cannot share where you interviews or where you got offers. You really don't want to insinuate there is collusion in the admissions process anywhere.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Having multiple interviews within one school, albeit tiring (from personal experience), is not a bad idea for the reasons of reducing uncertainty you mentioned. Maybe the applicant didn’t have the best interview with one person but excels in the next one.

Exactly. MMIs and OSCEs. There's data as well on this.

 

[LunaOri]

The issue and the most compelling argument made by Roberts regarding this is that the broad generalization of what constitutes ORM being defined as “Asian” is outright ****ing bonkers. There are ethic groups that are widely over represented and those that aren’t. Yet the under represented groups are not getting that benefit. It is pretty unconscionable to think that having a HIGHER standard for a minority group is in any way a good idea.

AMCAS may group all Asians together, but in individual school applications we differentiate: applicants whose families are from Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia (for example) are URM, whereas those from China and India (for example) are not URM.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Also another way for AAMC to finesse more money out of us

PREview cough cough...

 

[Mr.Smile12]

AMCAS may group all Asians together, but in individual school applications we differentiate: applicants whose families are from Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia (for example) are URM, whereas those from China and India (for example) are not URM.

Minor detail: the EEOC and Department of Education standards for reporting demographics are what they are (set up by Congress). We already shared a bit of the judicial influence and history about this.

"Overrepresented Minorities": A Brief History - SDN

The Student Doctor Network provides free tools, resources, and advising services to help students become health professionals.

www.studentdoctor.net

 

[LunaOri]

I couldn’t have said it better and couldn’t agree more. I believe that USF Morsani is doing something that the other medical schools can follow. It will help a lot of applicants and remove the uncertainty to some extent.


USF Morsani Medical School has a BSMD program. Any high school kid with 4.0 wGPA and 1500 is qualified to enter this program. All students are given a schedule of courses and also required to do research, predefined number of hours of clinical experience, volunteering, shadowing etc. At the end of the sophomore year, everyone with 3.7 (if I remember correctly) and 516 on the mcat are given an interview at Morsani medical school which is basically a guaranteed acceptance because they never rejected anyone after the interview it seems . The 516 is not an arbitrary number but their average matriculants score.

Every university can do something like this. It can be a 8 year program as well. They can slightly lower the threshold and fill up say 40-50% of the available seats. They can publish in advance their need based aid and merit scholarship policy for those who enter this program. This will take away the stress of a lot of applicants from applying to 40-50 schools and return empty handed sometimes . They can fill up the remaining 50% through the traditional holistic admissions.

As a side note, USF says that only 10% (15 out of 150) of those who entered this program manage to successfully matriculate to Morsani. Most of them fail to clear the mcat threshold which was 515 until last year. It was hard for me to believe that only 10% of those with 1500 on the SAT could score 515 on the MCAT. It was an eye opener for me. Yet, medical schools treat applicants with 518+ or 520+ as if they are nothing.

It need not be a BSMD as well. Every medical school can come up with a qualifying criteria for an automatic admission (gpa, mcat, shadowing, extracurriculars etc) and fill up 40-50% of the class. The rest can be filled up by the holistic process.

Don’t know how many times we need to repeat this: it takes more than grades and MCAT scores to make a person a good candidate.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

It's not reducing work. It is going to make things super complicated. Are schools not going to do rolling decisions? Wait for everyone to finish interviewing? Will students now have to go to every interview? Then is your first interview going to be weighted the same as your last interview? Nah, it is going to be worse than what it is now.

Points to Canada.

 

[anonymoustiger]

I think affirmative action is important and necessary, but its execution was flawed. The only people to blame are those universities (all universities? idk) who enabled and enacted it’s poor execution. Much of this debate has pitted minorities against others and I think it’s sad. I hope that a better system for evaluating applicants/people in light of affirmative action decision can be found. I honestly don’t know what a new system of evaluation would be.

Here are my thoughts (they probably don’t matter in the large scheme of things). Apologies if they’re garbled! Disclaimer: These thoughts are not to minimize the experience of traditionally underrepresented groups in medicine, education, leadership positions, etc. These thoughts are present hopefully to provide insight into another side of AA! Thanks for reading.

I would like to begin by focusing on Justice Jackson’s eloquent, well written and enlightening opinion. I really enjoyed reading it and it was a refreshing read with lots of important historical facts and thoughts. However, one thing I noticed is the word Asian only appeared three times in the entire opinion piece. Justice Jackson did not extensively evaluate or acknowledge the oppression that asians experience at various points during America’s lengthy history. This sentiment and incomplete evaluation seems to be evident across most pro-AA writings. None focus on the experience of Asian Americans. It’s sad. I hope to speak to that.

On pg 7, Justice Jackson references the government’s attempt to increase opportunities for upward mobility, but these opportunities were scarce for Black people. According to the piece, “Despite these barriers, Black people persisted” (pg 7). She goes on to highlight racist zoning policies, high pricing for subpar housing, etc. This is incredibly sad and oppressive. However, in my reading of House of Rothschild, by Niall Ferguson, it was evident that such similar oppressions existed against the Jewish communities at the turn of nearly every century. In Mayer Rothschild’s day, there were images in Frankfurt, Germany like the Judensau, which depicted Rabbi’s drinking excrement from a pig. Their people were restricted to the Frankfurt ghetto’s and the children “swam in filth.” They were not allowed to be doctors or lawyers. Jewish communities were allowed only to engage in banking on behalf of “superior” people. Yet, despite these incredibly oppressive and health-deteriorating conditions, the Jewish communities rose up and continue to rise up, despite receiving poor treatment. The key here is that it took time and strong communities. It started from the bottom up. As of 2022, Harvard has a $50.2 billion endowment, yet I have never heard of the university opening any educational centers/facilities/pipelines in Compton, or the south side of Chicago. Yet, the university admins want to place subjective measures of personality, courage, etc from the top down. The university admins want to make broad generalizations after you tick Asian, Black, White, etc. However, everyone’s experience with their race/ethnicity is individual. I think that is the issue highlighted at the court case. It would be better to increase educational funding to those underserved areas. We need admissions advisors who have a diversity of life experiences from all races and ethnicities, so unique experiences can be advocated for.

Justice Roberts said universities may still consider, “an applicant’s discussion of how race affected his or her life, be it through discrimination, inspiration or otherwise.” Yes, this is important. Universities need to put in the work to evaluate one’s experiences with race in the context of that individual’s life. This will be incredibly challenging, as it will likely require universities to read more carefully and sort through more applications. At the very least, traditionally ORM students who don’t get accepted to universities will no longer be able to use the crutch that it was a minority student who stole their spot. That mentality is absurd anyway. When I was rejected from medical school my first application, I didn’t think that way and I certainly hope others don’t either.

My last point to make is that even amongst traditionally overrepresented groups like Asians, there is nuances within them. Let’s take a look at India, where the caste system still has a hold. In India certain opportunities and upward mobility exists only for those of a higher caste (Brahmins for example). However, what happens if your a Dalit (an untouchable). People don’t want to be near you, they don’t want you to touch their food. They don’t even want to touch you. Then when these people flee to America, they experience casteism in the workplace from other Indians. Even amongst Indians, there is oppression against their own people. How does that work in the context of AA? This is never talked about. How about if you are a darker colored Indian? Although you are Asian, you are likely to experience discrimination on the basis of your skin, even though your checking the box of Asian would indicate otherwise. Many south Indians have dark skin and have felt/heard similar racist remarks that a Hispanic or Black individual might. I know I have. I’ve been called curry n-word and sand n-word by a white TA I worked with regularly! Yet, I’m not sure my experience is overrepresented? How about poorer Asians from Vietnamese, Laotian, Cambodian or Korean descent. They check Asian, but their lived experiences are not overrepresented. How about my Chinese friends whose parents were doctors in China, but fled after Tiananmen Square massacre? They couldn’t get physicians jobs and work as lab techs in my lab! How about the Japanese internment camps, where upwards of $2-5 billion worth of property was taken away from Japanese families and never redistributed. How about the indentured servant conditions of the Chinese railway laborers (who were called Coolies!)? How about the Anti-Chinese sentiment during the Covid Pandemic? My friend went to Kentucky for one year to do research before beginning his MD-PhD and he was called Chink and told to go home regularly. People through trash at him when he walked alone in the streets. This is the same friend whose parents made only $40,000 a year and yet he won multiple scholarships and fellowships (Goldwater, published in high school, one year masters in Cambridge, etc.) Justice Jackson never touched on this...

Change takes time. It starts with more traditionally underrepresented minorities taking positions in tech (as coders), being PAs, etc... slowly breaking into fields which were closed off to them. It must be done as a community from the bottom up. Asian communities who immigrate to the US and their kids rise to the top are done by emphasizing a culture of poverty and understanding that education is the only way up and out. I hope this isn't tone deaf. I feel much of the pro-AA stuff is tone deaf as well. Idk...

I could go on and on. You may read this and think this is anecdotal. However, I hope this highlights that even amongst “ORM” applicants there is diversity of life experience. In the end, I hope more Black, Hispanic, Native American, women, etc. apply to and get accepted to medical school. My dad always emphasized the importance of diversity of thought, race, ethnicity, gender, etc. I agree with that sentiment. I just hope schools find a better way to do it. I need to go write some secondaries now lol. Best of luck to everyone in the process!

edit - Side note: Furthermore, I didn't even realize I could talk about my unique experiences in my essays until recently. It sounds very naive but all my counselors and standard wisdom would indicate since I'm Asian I can't have unique racial, ethnic, and educaitional experiences... Why? Idk man... Best of luck and sending lots of good vibes and peace to everyone.

 

[darkamgine]

I am talking about the application process. Of course, the physicians are there to serve the population.

The application process of medical schools selects who becomes physicians. These physicians will serve the population. So there will be a direct link.

Once again, medical school admissions are not designed for the ease or benefit of the applicant. It is designed by medical schools for their selection of students who will represent them and serve as physicians in the future. Applicants do not hold power to change medical school admission but medical schools can easily change their algorithms and style.

There is a theme that you express that schools should just select the highest achievers but that won't work out well for the school or students. Imagine you have 100 very high stats students who are not diverse. Half of them want to go into the most competitive specialties but typically the school only has 25 slots. Now the students will be competing with each other for research, grades, and more. Meanwhile, some other specialties may not have much interest and a lot of resources are wasted. Diversity is not just within race and SES, interests and specialties matter too and schools may ask such questions during interviews. Honestly, if there are 20 students at a school who want to do neurosurgery, it is going to be bad for everyone involved.

Some schools, especially public, also have certain missions for a portion of their students. The students they select will affect the healthcare in that area. If suddenly a lot students want to specialize, they may not have enough students to do primary care in that area. They obviously cannot force students to go into a speciality but once again, this would be an issue that started with their admissions. All in all, med school admissions are not an one size fits all and schools should have their own option to decide their students.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

My last point to make is that even amongst traditionally overrepresented groups like Asians, there is nuances within them. ... How does that work in the context of AA?

Sorry to edit. The caste system is not something taught in American schools as far as I know. Maybe it's in the AP World History (Asian History?) curriculum, but unfortunately the nuances are not something taught in K-12, college, or medical school. Maybe it goes under the cultural competency curriculum, and there are resources there.

I just say that while I completely agree that we should learn about social systems and hierarchy, and it could come in sociology class, the burden falls on the applicant or student to inform an admissions committee or small group of students. Lived experience is very important, and holistic review should take it into account. But the applicant has to still make the connection that this insight has a benefit to patient care.

Affirmative Action in principle and as I understand it, is focused on addressing the wrongs and barriers historically placed against races and groups not given any power or wealth in the US over centuries where their humanity was denied. The ideal that AA was THE tool to eliminate racism was/is misguided, but eliminating AA does not eliminate racism/colonialism or its generational impact.

Should something like AA exist in India? There are no legal castes in India anymore (right?), but the poster notes the mindsets of superiority remain. Castes have existed in India for 3000 years! You have to change hearts and minds to root out this mindset, and resistance and backlash will always exist among those who are privileged under the caste system until they accept the immorality of maintaining discrimination by caste.

What is the minimum amount you want admissions committee to know about this? To me that is the issue that comes from the cultural competency curriculum applied to adcom training. But I don't know how you would incorporate it to admissions policy.

Just saying you are right. We need to dispel thinking about Asians as a monolithic group because it is not. Many of us have worked on this.

If you read the article, thank you! You are not the only one who brings up your points, and there is still much more.

"Overrepresented Minorities": A Brief History - SDN

The Student Doctor Network provides free tools, resources, and advising services to help students become health professionals.

www.studentdoctor.net

 

[senecca]

Don’t know how many times we need to repeat this: it takes more than grades and MCAT scores to make a person a good candidate.

I didn’t say only GPA and MCAT. But, also predetermined number of hours of research, community service, clinical experience, shadowing as determined by each medical school . Morsani does that exactly, I just used it as a base/template.

 

[darkamgine]

I think affirmative action is important and necessary, but its execution was flawed. The only people to blame are those universities (all universities? idk) who enabled and enacted it’s poor execution. Much of this debate has pitted minorities against others and I think it’s sad. I hope that a better system for evaluating applicants/people in light of affirmative action decision can be found. I honestly don’t know what a new system of evaluation would be.

Here are my thoughts (they probably don’t matter in the large scheme of things). Apologies if they’re garbled! Disclaimer: These thoughts are not to minimize the experience of traditionally underrepresented groups in medicine, education, leadership positions, etc. These thoughts are present hopefully to provide insight into another side of AA! Thanks for reading.

I would like to begin by focusing on Justice Jackson’s eloquent, well written and enlightening opinion. I really enjoyed reading it and it was a refreshing read with lots of important historical facts and thoughts. However, one thing I noticed is the word Asian only appeared three times in the entire opinion piece. Justice Jackson did not extensively evaluate or acknowledge the oppression that asians experience at various points during America’s lengthy history. This sentiment and incomplete evaluation seems to be evident across most pro-AA writings. None focus on the experience of Asian Americans. It’s sad. I hope to speak to that.

On pg 7, Justice Jackson references the government’s attempt to increase opportunities for upward mobility, but these opportunities were scarce for Black people. According to the piece, “Despite these barriers, Black people persisted” (pg 7). She goes on to highlight racist zoning policies, high pricing for subpar housing, etc. This is incredibly sad and oppressive. However, in my reading of House of Rothschild, by Niall Ferguson, it was evident that such similar oppressions existed against the Jewish communities at the turn of nearly every century. In Mayer Rothschild’s day, there were images in Frankfurt, Germany like the Judensau, which depicted Rabbi’s drinking excrement from a pig. Their people were restricted to the Frankfurt ghetto’s and the children “swam in filth.” They were not allowed to be doctors or lawyers. Jewish communities were allowed only to engage in banking on behalf of “superior” people. Yet, despite these incredibly oppressive and health-deteriorating conditions, the Jewish communities rose up and continue to rise up, despite receiving poor treatment. The key here is that it took time and strong communities. It started from the bottom up. As of 2022, Harvard has a $50.2 billion endowment, yet I have never heard of the university opening any educational centers/facilities/pipelines in Compton, or the south side of Chicago. Yet, the university admins want to place subjective measures of personality, courage, etc. The university admins want to make broad generalizations after you tick Asian, Black, White, etc. However, everyone’s experience with their race/ethnicity is individual. I think that is the issue highlighted at the court case. It would be better to increase educational funding to those underserved areas.

Justice Roberts said universities may still consider, “an applicant’s discussion of how race affected his or her life, be it through discrimination, inspiration or otherwise.” Yes, this is important. Universities need to put in the work to evaluate one’s experiences with race in the context of that individual’s life. This will be incredibly challenging, as it will likely require universities to read more carefully and sort through more applications. At the very least, traditionally ORM students who don’t get accepted to universities will no longer be able to use the crutch that it was a minority student who stole their spot. That mentality is absurd anyway. When I was rejected from medical school my first application, I didn’t think that way and I certainly hope others don’t either.

My last point to make is that even amongst traditionally overrepresented groups like Asians, there is nuances within them. Let’s take a look at India, where the caste system still has a hold. In India certain opportunities and upward mobility exists only for those of a higher caste (Brahmins for example). However, what happens if your a Dalit (an untouchable). People don’t want to be near you, they don’t want you to touch their food. They don’t even want to touch you. Then when these people flee to America, they experience casteism in the workplace from other Indians. Even amongst Indians, there is oppression against their own people. How does that work in the context of AA? This is never talked about. How about if you are a darker colored Indian? Although you are Asian, you are likely to experience discrimination on the basis of your skin, even though your checking the box of Asian would indicate otherwise. Many south Indians have dark skin and have felt/heard similar racist remarks that a Hispanic or Black individual might. I know I have. I’ve been called curry n-word and sand n-word by a white TA I worked with regularly! Yet, I’m not sure my experience is overrepresented? How about poorer Asians from Vietnamese, Laotian, Cambodian or Korean descent. They check Asian, but their lived experiences are not overrepresented. How about my Chinese friends whose parents were doctors in China, but fled after Tiananmen Square massacre? They couldn’t get physicians jobs and work as lab techs in my lab! How about the Japanese internment camps, where upwards of $2-5 billion worth of property was taken away from Japanese families and never redistributed. How about the indentured servant conditions of the Chinese railway laborers (who were called Coolies!)? How about the Anti-Chinese sentiment during the Covid Pandemic? My friend went to Kentucky for one year to do research before beginning his MD-PhD and he was called Chink and told to go home regularly. People through trash at him when he walked alone in the streets. This is the same friend whose parents made only $40,000 a year and yet he won multiple scholarships and fellowships (Goldwater, published in high school, one year masters in Cambridge, etc.) Justice Jackson never touched on this...

Change takes time. It starts with more traditionally underrepresented minorities taking positions in tech (as coders), being PAs, etc... slowly breaking into fields which were closed off to them. It must be done as a community from the bottom up. Asian communities who immigrate to the US and their kids rise to the top are done by a culture of poverty and understanding that education is the only way up and out. I hope this isn't tone deaf. I feel much of the pro-AA stuff is tone deaf as well. Idk...

I could go on and on. You may read this and think this is anecdotal. However, I hope this highlights that even amongst “ORM” applicants there is diversity of life experience. In the end, I hope more Black, Hispanic, Native American, women, etc. apply to and get accepted to medical school. My dad always emphasized the importance of diversity of thought, race, ethnicity, gender, etc. I agree with that sentiment. I just hope schools find a better way to do it. I need to go write some secondaries now lol. Best of luck to everyone in the process!

I feel like you miss the point on AA. The origin with AA was not about simple adversities or difficulties. It began because of hundreds of years of slavery and oppression by the US citizens and government. The U.S. directly benefits from this oppression from importing slaves to where it was in the 1960s and AA was the least that could be done.

For schools, AA was opening the doors to those who were affected by generational oppression and poverty. There is nothing that required universities to go to the communities and rebuild them. That is far beyond the scope of a school.

I agree that the anti-asian sentiment at the Harvard Undergrad admission was despicable and inhumane but that doesn't mean AA did not have a place. As for the adversities that Asian face, it is different for everyone. I don't think anyone is arguing anti-asian dehumanization is okay and that is one thing that will hopefully be gone after this case.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Harvard has a $50.2 billion endowment, yet I have never heard of the university opening any educational centers/facilities/pipelines in Compton, or the south side of Chicago.

With due respect, other universities close to these communities likely did build pipelines or bridges as part of their institutional mission and core values to address and advocate for their communities' needs. Arguing how Harvard should spend is endowment is beyond the scope of this forum.

I do think their policy of financial aid would cover all tuition for anyone who grew up in these communities which would come from their endorsement.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Furthermore, I didn't even realize I could talk about my unique experiences in my essays until recently. It sounds very naive but all my counselors and standard wisdom would indicate since I'm Asian I can't have unique racial, ethnic, and educaitional experiences... Why? Idk man...

Why? White supremacy and model minority myth, for starters.

"A People's History of Asian America" series on PBS.

Join APAMSA. Fight the silence. Some of us are here eager to listen and advocate for and with you.

P.S. your counselors may be well intentioned, but I disagree completely.

 

[sugasathya]

Sorry to edit. The caste system is not something taught in American schools as far as I know. Maybe it's in the AP World History (Asian History?) curriculum, but unfortunately the nuances are not something taught in K-12, college, or medical school. Maybe it goes under the cultural competency curriculum, and there are resources there.

I just say that while I completely agree that we should learn about social systems and hierarchy, and it could come in sociology class, the burden falls on the applicant or student to inform an admissions committee or small group of students. Lived experience is very important, and holistic review should take it into account. But the applicant has to still make the connection that this insight has a benefit to patient care.

Affirmative Action in principle and as I understand it, is focused on addressing the wrongs and barriers historically placed against races and groups not given any power or wealth in the US over centuries where their humanity was denied. The ideal that AA was THE tool to eliminate racism was/is misguided, but eliminating AA does not eliminate racism/colonialism or its generational impact.

Should something like AA exist in India? There are no legal castes in India anymore (right?), but the poster notes the mindsets of superiority remain. Castes have existed in India for 3000 years! You have to change hearts and minds to root out this mindset, and resistance and backlash will always exist among those who are privileged under the caste system until they accept the immorality of maintaining discrimination by caste.

What is the minimum amount you want admissions committee to know about this? To me that is the issue that comes from the cultural competency curriculum applied to adcom training. But I don't know how you would incorporate it to admissions policy.

Just saying you are right. We need to disaggregate thinking about Asians as a monolithic group because it is not. Many of us have worked on this.

"Overrepresented Minorities": A Brief History - SDN

The Student Doctor Network provides free tools, resources, and advising services to help students become health professionals.

www.studentdoctor.net

Wanted to add some points on caste system :
1) India has an official affirmative action based on Caste system in Government controlled college seats and Government Jobs.
2) For several thousands of years Caste system is deeply rooted in Indian society.
3) One of the reason Caste system is still prevalent because it has religious and cultural backing. So people believe it is the God given way. Intercaste marriages are still frowned upon in many places. You could look matrimonial websites that they find groom and bride based on caste.
4) Most of the successful Indians you see in US are upper caste Indians as their parents has the education to come to US or support for good education in India. VP Kamala Harris Mom is Upper caste, So does Tech CEO's like Sundar Pichai, Satya Nadela, IBM CEO Arvind, ( Not sure about Surgeon General Vivek Murthy ).
5) While many of the people I mentioned above are pretty decent and dont care about caste, Some of the middle-class, upper middle class people in India still care about caste system because it also carry thier cultural identity. For example many Upper caste people are vegetarians.
6) The lower caste Indians in US are not as privileged with a lots of educated surroundings, but at the same time they are treated as ORMs.

 

[eigen]

I am talking about the application process. Of course, the physicians are there to serve the population.

The entire purpose of the application process is to pick applicants that will best serve patients.

It’s not to pick the smartest scientist. It’s not to pick the best test taker.

And not every school is looking for the same exact thing, because hey have different missions. Some are looking to train the best physician scientists. Many are looking to train physicians who will best serve the population of students in their particular locale, which is why residency is often used.

This is what you fundamentally don’t seem to get.

 

[sugasathya]

The entire purpose of the application process is to pick applicants that will best serve patients.

It’s not to pick the smartest scientist. It’s not to pick the best test taker.

And not every school is looking for the same exact thing, because hey have different missions. Some are looking to train the best physician scientists. Many are looking to train physicians who will best serve the population of students in their particular locale, which is why residency is often used.

This is what you fundamentally don’t seem to get.

I am wondering why people are always complaining about American health care system ? I dont think the schools have any extraordinary mission. Only thing I see is top schools have median MCAT/GPA scores high and low tier schools and DO schools have lower median MCAT/GPA. At the end the schools will advertise if thier alumni accomplish something big. Dont know how many schools advertise or has top tier name based on their doctors serving underserved population ( which is important, but don't see Harvard or Yale advertising big percent of their alumni serving under represented community or underserved area ). So it seems the current admission process has some big flaw.