Tail coverage

[Piebaldi]

So in this "fellowship" that i resigned from recently, I asked long time ago whether tail was covered.I was told yes. When I signed paperwork after resigining I was told that I'd be covered for the premium for the tail. When I was like what?! That's not what I was told. I was told that "it would be covered if I finished the fellowship." That seems shady and illegal. Obviously paying thousands of dollars for tail would be reasonable on an attending salary, but now it seems they are pissed I quit and are trying to recoup - obviously making like $3500 bucks per month, I would be working for free for like a month.

I. am writing the person in charge of all the paperwork who told me, in writing, via email that it was covered.
Thoughts?

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[Propofool123]

Ask for the contract you signed when you joined the fellowship. Should have The relevant info covered in there.

 

[Piebaldi]

Ask for the contract you signed when you joined the fellowship. Should have The relevant info covered in there.

The contract says the opposite of what the HR person told me. HR person told me in writing that they covered it

 

[Propofool123]

Contract trumps whatever anyone else says, even if it’s in writing. It sucks. Maybe talk to a lawyer?

 

[paindoc007]

Yes. Will need a lawyer here.

 

[BobBarker]

A lawyer will cost more than two months of tail coverage. Pay it or run naked as you did not do many procedures as you stated.

 

[lobelsteve]

Run naked. They were supervising you. If anything filed, they have deep pockets. F em.

 

[Piebaldi]

A lawyer will cost more than two months of tail coverage. Pay it or run naked as you did not do many procedures as you stated.

They are taking it out of my paycheck - without even asking if ok or anything. I would run naked. I have no idea how much this would cost though!

 

[Piebaldi]

Run naked. They were supervising you. If anything filed, they have deep pockets. F em.

This is exactly what I was thinking - no one is going to sue me. They were supposed to "supervise" me - and their pockets are much bigger than mine. But they are not even giving me the option!! Essentially the plan is not to pay me it seems. They did not pay the fellow they fired.

 

[Piebaldi]

A lawyer will cost more than two months of tail coverage. Pay it or run naked as you did not do many procedures as you stated.

How much will 2 or so months of tail coverage cost in rough terms?

 

[SommeRiver]

I wouldn't pay them one penny.

You won't be sued and even if your name ends up in a suit bc the pt sues everyone you'll basically tell them I'm a trainee and don't know wtf I'm doing.

My attending had no problem with my technique.

 

[lobelsteve]

Labor board. 9am Monday

 

[BobBarker]

How much will 2 or so months of tail coverage cost in rough terms?

Maybe $2000 tops.

 

[Piebaldi]

I wouldn't pay them one penny.

You won't be sued and even if your name ends up in a suit bc the pt sues everyone you'll basically tell them I'm a trainee and don't know wtf I'm doing.

My attending had no problem with my technique.

Well I don't think I should pay anything - if tail costs 3k (after taxes, salary is about $3,500/mo)- that means I'm workinglike a month free! I was a trainee, and I thunk they are suggesting that because I did not finish that I have to pay.

They did not pay the last paycheck for my co-fellow who was fired.He is afraid of attending here - believes he's dangerous and that he will try to hurt us if we try to do something. Obviously I don't want drama or issues but don't want to be screwed either.

That's exactly what I would say - I was a trainee. I even in my resignation expressed concerns that there was a blurring of line b/in fellow and attending duties. Said I was there to be a trainee - not an attending.

 

[Piebaldi]

Labor board. 9am Monday

What's labor board?

What if this guy is dangerous and tries to hurt me or try to say some lie about me, tries to get me in trouble with the board or something?My co fellow who was fired adn did not get paid suggested to let it be, bc this guy is dangerous. No one has supposedly quit before, but I got tired of the abuse, the belittling, the lack of teaching, the constant fear and walking on eggshells. There was no possibility to say anything without fearing negative consequences.

No thanks. And now they are trying to stiff me with tail!! If it was a real fellowship they woudln't charge me tail at all. Just like they told me twice via email.

 

[lobelsteve]

What's labor board?

What if this guy is dangerous and tries to hurt me or try to say some lie about me, tries to get me in trouble with the board or something?My co fellow who was fired adn did not get paid suggested to let it be, bc this guy is dangerous. No one has supposedly quit before, but I got tired of the abuse, the belittling, the lack of teaching, the constant fear and walking on eggshells. There was no possibility to say anything without fearing negative consequences.

No thanks. And now they are trying to stiff me with tail!! If it was a real fellowship they woudln't charge me tail at all. Just like they told me twice via email.

Your states labor board. Violation of employment law. You file complaint against them.

 

[Piebaldi]

Your states labor board. Violation of employment law. You file complaint against them.

I see. My only concern is that I agree with my previous fellow that this guy is a bit dangerous in my opinion - he is highly narcissistic, goes around calling himself "the CEO" and the pain person has a thing on his chair that says "greatest of all time." what if they try to do something to me because i quit?

 

[Ligament]

This is a sad situation.

Unfortunately, only what is actually written in your contract matters here. Don't waste your time pursuing things not written in the actual contract.

A lawyer is going to cost you 4-5 billable hours absolute minimum, most likely far more. So just weigh that in the costs.

Narcissism does not equate to "dangerous" in the slightest. I've not read anything in this thread that substantiates that this person is dangerous. Asshattery does not equal physical threat.

Screwing you on training, hurting your feelings or being rude to you is not a danger to you, nor an indication of danger in the future. I think you should calmly reassess the situation. If you truly find some threat of physical harm to yourself, get a restraining order.

 

[Piebaldi]

This is a sad situation.

Unfortunately, only what is actually written in your contract matters here. Don't waste your time pursuing things not written in the actual contract.

A lawyer is going to cost you 4-5 billable hours absolute minimum, most likely far more. So just weigh that in the costs.

Narcissism does not equate to "dangerous" in the slightest. I've not read anything in this thread that substantiates that this person is dangerous. Asshattery does not equal physical threat.

Screwing you on training, hurting your feelings or being rude to you is not a danger to you, nor an indication of danger in the future. I think you should calmly reassess the situation. If you truly find some threat of physical harm to yourself, get a restraining order.

Not suggesting he's going to come to my house and stab me, but try to make up stuff with the board, try to discredit me professionally (he made up all sorts of crap when he attacked me verbally in his conference room, etc). Also working for free for essentially 2-4 weeks would be concerning. What kind of "fellow" pays for tail?

 

[Ligament]

Not suggesting he's going to come to my house and stab me, but try to make up stuff with the board, try to discredit me professionally (he made up all sorts of crap when he attacked me verbally in his conference room, etc). Also working for free for essentially 2-4 weeks would be concerning. What kind of "fellow" pays for tail?

He has no ability to harm you via any board since he has nothing to do with any of your certifications. If he claims you performed malpractice on any patient he would be burying himself as your employer and if he is smart he would not risk that. Any physician can discredit you professionally, and they will in the future! There are a good amount of unethical people out there and over your career they will attempt to harm you in some fashion for any number of reasons, none of them justified.

Working for free is no good of course. No fellow should pay for a tail IMO, but as this was a private fellowship you were essentially a standard physician employee and I doubt you were legally viewed as anything other than that regarding employment laws.

 

[dhcofc]

The main problem here is this is probably not a “real fellowship”. You probably are completely liable professionally if sued. I’m not sure that you can just hide behind the “attending”. For 9 months right out of fellowship I’ve seen tail cost $3,000. 2 months won’t be that much. Not worth worrying about, just pay it. You’re simply paying it to protect yourself. The argument that they should have paid it if you get sued would not be an argument I would want to stand behind in court.

 

[Piebaldi]

He has no ability to harm you via any board since he has nothing to do with any of your certifications. If he claims you performed malpractice on any patient he would be burying himself as your employer and if he is smart he would not risk that. Any physician can discredit you professionally, and they will in the future! There are a good amount of unethical people out there and over your career they will attempt to harm you in some fashion for any number of reasons, none of them justified.

Working for free is no good of course. No fellow should pay for a tail IMO, but as this was a private fellowship you were essentially a standard physician employee and I doubt you were legally viewed as anything other than that regarding employment laws.

Well if I was a physician and we agreed to a salary and they are not paying a salary as agreed upon then I would assume as above poster suggested that ti's a violation of labor laws. Also can't have it both ways - if one is a fellow andgets paid crap, then no tail as they said. If one is an attending then one makes hundreds of thousands of dollars, and pays tail. Can't have it both ways!

What if he wrote the board and said something nasty and untrue? I don't believe, and agree with my former co-fellow, that this person is right in the head. Most of his employes dislike him. Turnover is massive. Other physicians in the area dislike him.

 

[Piebaldi]

The main problem here is this is probably not a “real fellowship”. You probably are completely liable professionally if sued. I’m not sure that you can just hide behind the “attending”. For 9 months right out of fellowship I’ve seen tail cost $3,000. 2 months won’t be that much. Not worth worrying about, just pay it. You’re simply paying it to protect yourself. The argument that they should have paid it if you get sued would not be an argument I would want to stand behind in court.

Of course it's not a real fellowship. But they continue insisting it's "the best place to train." Anyhow, no for notes and everything, attending signed and all the procedures are under him - my signature is nowhere on any procedures. So I don't exist in terms of procedures. That's the goal part. So any negative outcome in terms of procedures would be entirely him.
My former co-fellow who got stiffed and not paid said exsentially that - that he wasn't going to worry about it and just move on. I'm glad I didn't stay for the additional 2 weeks they wanted me to. I would have been abused for free for 2 weeks.Ugh.

Anyways sadly they are just "taking it out" of my paycheck not even allowing me to shop around or anything.

 

[SommeRiver]

Do not pay for that tail coverage. You're a worthless target for litigation.

 

[Piebaldi]

Do not pay for that tail coverage. You're a worthless target for litigation.

Right! I don't want to! But they forcibly taking it out of my paycheck and I complained and they blew me off. I guess I will have to email them and if not possibly file something. What a nightmare. I'm glad I got out before it got worse.

 

[SommeRiver]

Send them a dikpik. I'm not kidding.

 

[hyperalgesia]

Send them a dikpik. I'm not kidding.

She's a chick lol

 

[Piebaldi]

She's a chick lol

Thank you for noting that, I am indeed. But I am not sure if I was a dude that it would help haha. They are already pissed - and I was called a "princess." Not sure why, still a lot of nonsensical comments, but trying to not inflame the situation and simply move on without getting screwed.

 

[SommeRiver]

Send a dump pik

 

[lobelsteve]

I see. My only concern is that I agree with my previous fellow that this guy is a bit dangerous in my opinion - he is highly narcissistic, goes around calling himself "the CEO" and the pain person has a thing on his chair that says "greatest of all time." what if they try to do something to me because i quit?

You have to decide whether to cower or fight. So what if they come after you. You have nothing to lose.

 

[Ducttape]

talk to an attorney.

you are asking a lot of valid questions. it will cost you, but if you get sued, you will have no legal back up for any of your future actions.

and having the office have to direct future communication to an attorney could be daunting to this attending.


For anyone else reading this forum who is interested in Pain Medicine fellowship, these are good reasons why to consider only ACGME fellowships. at least, consider only those non-ACGME fellowships with significant national notoriety...

 

[deleted993114]

Run naked. They were supervising you. If anything filed, they have deep pockets. F em.

That is exactly right. Attorneys go after the "deep pockets", which would be the institution and the staff, not a fellow. Additionally, you have no money (probably in debt), so it would be pointless to go after you in litigation.

Always go to an accredited fellowship, for this and a number of other reasons.

 

[Piebaldi]

You have to decide whether to cower or fight. So what if they come after you. You have nothing to lose.

It woudl cost a lot of $$ not to mention what, if despite not doing anything wrong, they try to go after my license?This is what my colleague says - thaty they are dangerous people so he let things go.

 

[Piebaldi]

That is exactly right. Attorneys go after the "deep pockets", which would be the institution and the staff, not a fellow. Additionally, you have no money (probably in debt), so it would be pointless to go after you in litigation.

Always go to an accredited fellowship, for this and a number of other reasons.

Well yes, interestingly enough I was at a conference this weekend and a legal group gave a talk and said exactly that - that lawyers won't go after, even if there is a case it seems, people iwht no $$because they won't recover much of anything even if they win. So they go after deep pockets. In this case, the facility and attendings have $, I have very little of it obviously. And certainly they didn't even give me the chance to even look into it in terms of what tail would cost! They just said we are taking it out of your paycheck. I am thinking of calling around and see what that would cost. So shady.

 

[Ducttape]

if you think they are "dangerous people", then further reasons to hire an attorney to look after your interests.

it'll cost some money but give piece of mind.

(make sure it is an attorney that works on medical contracts, etc.)

 

[Piebaldi]

if you think they are "dangerous people", then further reasons to hire an attorney to look after your interests.

it'll cost some money but give piece of mind.

(make sure it is an attorney that works on medical contracts, etc.)

Don't really have the funds to pay for a lawyer right now. And currently I have resigned, put in writing how hostile things became, and that my ethnicity/race was insulted, that i was personally and professionally attacked so I doubt that they wouldbe so silly to try to hurt me.
I don't have a concrete anything right now.

I guess we'll see how things go.

 

[Baron Samedi]

If they truly were that egregious with misconduct, you can file a complaint with your state's Medical Board.

If they are withholding paychecks, take it up with your state's Department of Labor.

 

[Piebaldi]

If they truly were that egregious with misconduct, you can file a complaint with your state's Medical Board.

If they are withholding paychecks, take it up with your state's Department of Labor.

Good advice all around guys. Thanks all!

 

[Baron Samedi]

Good advice all around guys. Thanks all!

Just another follow-up thought --

Do you want these guys to continue taking inappropriate actions towards future trainees? It's easier just to bounce and never say anything, but seriously consider filing a complaint to help those who might come after you. If they are so explosive and unprofessional towards trainees, they probably aren't in the right state-of-mind to provide safe patient care.

I've heard of several physicians(and unfortunately had to deal with one myself) who behaved unprofessionally, were reprimanded, and turned it around. Some of them needed psychiatric care, some didn't -- but it served as a bit of a wake up call that things needed to change at work and (sometimes) at home.

 

[Piebaldi]

Just another follow-up thought --

Do you want these guys to continue taking inappropriate actions towards future trainees? It's easier just to bounce and never say anything, but seriously consider filing a complaint to help those who might come after you. If they are so explosive and unprofessional towards trainees, they probably aren't in the right state-of-mind to provide safe patient care.

I've heard of several physicians(and unfortunately had to deal with one myself) who behaved unprofessionally, were reprimanded, and turned it around. Some of them needed psychiatric care, some didn't -- but it served as a bit of a wake up call that things needed to change at work and (sometimes) at home.

Well I don't want to destroy my career - these people have money. The surgeon has already been sued big time by a pretty big firm but got off on a technicality. I don't have hundreds of thousands of dollars to spend on litigation. Not to mention that tehre is some clause on the contract that I can't say anything or I have to pay $100k.

 

[Baron Samedi]

Well I don't want to destroy my career - these people have money. The surgeon has already been sued big time but got off on a technicality. I don't have hundreds of thousands of dollars to spend on litigation. Not to mention that tehre is some clause on the contract that I can't say anything or I have to pay $100k.

Filing a complaint with your state's medical board does not, in itself, subject you to litigation. Your communication with the state medical board is confidential. Unless you go public with your allegations and start some sort of facebook or press smear campaign, I'm not sure how they could even concretely pin anything on you.

Workplace harassment and discrimination based on race, gender, and ethnicity is not something that a non-disclosure agreement can enforce. NDA's are there for things like trade secrets, not illegal activity.

 

[Piebaldi]

Filing a complaint with your state's medical board does not, in itself, subject you to litigation. Your communication with the state medical board is confidential. Unless you go public with your allegations and start some sort of facebook or press smear campaign, I'm not sure how they could even concretely pin anything on you.

Workplace harassment and discrimination based on race, gender, and ethnicity is not something that a non-disclosure agreement can enforce. NDA's are there for things like trade secrets, not illegal activity.

Yes, but at the end of the day I quit, have no plans to go back and have pending position so technically there are no damages. I can't force them to not have a fellowship in the future. A medical board generally does not do antyhing unless something is super egregious (I previously wrote a different board on a very egregious physician, whose staff would literally email patients and threaten them with litigation every time someone said anything negative - and the board essentially said oh well nothing here we can't do anything about it). This physician's staff even pretended to be a lawyer! And this was Tx, which is super punitive for bad behavior. So I doubt that a board would do anything, not ot mention that its' hard to prove. The staff while terrified, still get paid by them not me, and I'm sure they want their jobs and would likely contradict what I say to keep their positions. So it would be very hard to prove.

 

[Ducttape]

there is confidentiality status with filing with state medical boards.

regardless of what certain politicians say, your former attendings are not granted the request to be faced by their accusers in these situations.

 

[Piebaldi]

there is confidentiality status with filing with state medical boards.

regardless of what certain politicians say, your former attendings are not granted the request to be faced by their accusers in these situations.

I mean it would be a long road, and they certainly have more money than I do. At least at this time. Are these people doing things I don't consider right in countless ways? Yes absolutely. But this is one of the big problems with medicine - no possibility to report wrongs without getting screwed. I think that in time justice will be served, and it seems they have had an increasingly more difficult time recruiting for this "fellowship" - so hopefully they learn their lesson at some point. While I have put everything in writing, it's hard to prove things - like that one movie with Gerard Butler is told by Jamie Fox who is the DA - it's not what's wrong it's what you can prove or something like that.
It's sad that the practice manager was present, and taking notes, when the surgeon was belittling me - I was shocked that she could be so complicit.

It's a nightmare I'm glad I left.
As a Christian individual, I have come to realize that sometimes there isn't "human justice" but there is always spiritual justice. I can go to sleep with a clear conscience that I did the right thing.

 

[SommeRiver]

Can they disprove the sexual harassment claims you have against them?

 

[paindoc007]

I don’t mean to blame you. I really don’t. But Why did you go there? Didn’t you do research? Talk to previous fellows, learn about the program, etc. Without acgme protection why didn’t you do some leg work before agreeing or taking their word that it’s “amazing training”

 

[Piebaldi]

Can they disprove the sexual harassment claims you have against them?

Not sexually harassed - harassed in many other ways though.

 

[SommeRiver]

Not sexually harassed - harassed in many other ways though.

LIE!

YOU WERE OFFERED EXTRA PROCEDURES!

 

[Piebaldi]

I don’t mean to blame you. I really don’t. But Why did you go there? Didn’t you do research? Talk to previous fellows, learn about the program, etc. Without acgme protection why didn’t you do some leg work before agreeing or taking their word that it’s “amazing training”

Well I guess I was stupid? I was drawn by the statement that grads were graduating with thousands of procedures, etc (not really the case - fellows were apparently logging cases that were on the schedule even if they did not do them) but someone did them becasue "they participated in the patient's evaluation, assessment, etc" - so the numbers looked great. I didn't think of things like this - other people who completed the "fellowship" seemed to get reasonable jobs, etc.

 

[Piebaldi]

LIE!

YOU WERE OFFERED EXTRA PROCEDURES!

Trust me that if I was in a different stage of life, I would probably file something. But just kind of want to move on.