Yes, I'm still around, I've been taking in everyone's comments and discussing my decision with different people. As of this point, my parents are ok with wherever I want to go. I spoke to my research PI (whom I have known for 4 years) and her husband (who has a PhD, MD (both from Johns Hopkins), and JD...eep!), they both agree that I should go to MSU because of the MD degree. I don't think they quite understand what DO is though. Ugh, I think I'll continue to mull over this decision for a few more months...
TCOM over MSU-CHM (MD)?
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A few general points.
It's about keeping options open: only you will make yourself succeed, but the resources available to you can nudge you in the right direction. I've mentioned these points, but I think they should be reiterated: DO's are not eligible for all research fellowships; not all residencies accept DOs; and with VCAS, you will not be eligible to rotate at all hospitals. Basically, don't close doors before you've even come to them.
The Roman philosopher Lucretius once wrote that hell exists, but only in the lives of fools who create it on Earth. If you apply to ACGME residencies, you will most likely take USMLE along with COMLEX. If you do not do a traditional osteopathic rotating internship, you won't be able to practice in WV, MI, or PA (please correct if I'm wrong on the number of states). If you go MD, you only take USMLE steps, and as long as you complete a residency, you can apply for licensing in any state.
What does it say about the future of Osteopathy when Kansas City Osteopathic looked into awarding dual MD, DO degrees? What does it say about Osteopathic medicine when TCOM moves to open an allopathic school instead of an osteopathic branch campus? What does it say when the governing body that approves osteopathic schools sanctions a for-profit instituion on US soil?
Remember, when you chose a school, it's not just about the 4 years you'll be enrolled; it's also about the 35+ years you'll be in practice. Between when you start and when you retire, who knows what will happen to medicine in America. But let's look at what's happened in the recent economic downturn: many MBAs and JDs lost their jobs, but due to a glut of both of these degrees, MBAs and JDs are almost worthless. My brother did his MBA at Wharton, and when he had to apply for jobs after his firm downsized, you sure as hell better believe that every job he interviewed at mentioned that he earned his degree at Penn, and that this helped him stand-out above other applicants. What happens if the rapid exapnsion of medical schools causes a glut of physicians (never say never because we all know b-school and law school grads never thought their professions would overexpand)? Although someone might say MSU-CHM is a bottom allopathic school, do you honestly believe anyone will say TCOM is a top osteopathic program--probably not, they'll fail to see any nuances in osteopathic education, at least in reference to allopathic schools. Although your residency will mean more than where you went to medical school, where you went to medical school will help propel you into residency. Now, I don't just mean the name, I mean the resources available at the school and how they helped mold you into the best physician you could be. In the NRMP Charting Outcomes Document, school name is not one of the top factors program directors use to select candidates to interview/rank for residency positions, but as PD posted in the pre-MD forum a few months ago (re: does school name matter) if it matters even just a little, then yes, it truly does matter
It's about keeping options open: only you will make yourself succeed, but the resources available to you can nudge you in the right direction. I've mentioned these points, but I think they should be reiterated: DO's are not eligible for all research fellowships; not all residencies accept DOs; and with VCAS, you will not be eligible to rotate at all hospitals. Basically, don't close doors before you've even come to them.
The Roman philosopher Lucretius once wrote that hell exists, but only in the lives of fools who create it on Earth. If you apply to ACGME residencies, you will most likely take USMLE along with COMLEX. If you do not do a traditional osteopathic rotating internship, you won't be able to practice in WV, MI, or PA (please correct if I'm wrong on the number of states). If you go MD, you only take USMLE steps, and as long as you complete a residency, you can apply for licensing in any state.
What does it say about the future of Osteopathy when Kansas City Osteopathic looked into awarding dual MD, DO degrees? What does it say about Osteopathic medicine when TCOM moves to open an allopathic school instead of an osteopathic branch campus? What does it say when the governing body that approves osteopathic schools sanctions a for-profit instituion on US soil?
Remember, when you chose a school, it's not just about the 4 years you'll be enrolled; it's also about the 35+ years you'll be in practice. Between when you start and when you retire, who knows what will happen to medicine in America. But let's look at what's happened in the recent economic downturn: many MBAs and JDs lost their jobs, but due to a glut of both of these degrees, MBAs and JDs are almost worthless. My brother did his MBA at Wharton, and when he had to apply for jobs after his firm downsized, you sure as hell better believe that every job he interviewed at mentioned that he earned his degree at Penn, and that this helped him stand-out above other applicants. What happens if the rapid exapnsion of medical schools causes a glut of physicians (never say never because we all know b-school and law school grads never thought their professions would overexpand)? Although someone might say MSU-CHM is a bottom allopathic school, do you honestly believe anyone will say TCOM is a top osteopathic program--probably not, they'll fail to see any nuances in osteopathic education, at least in reference to allopathic schools. Although your residency will mean more than where you went to medical school, where you went to medical school will help propel you into residency. Now, I don't just mean the name, I mean the resources available at the school and how they helped mold you into the best physician you could be. In the NRMP Charting Outcomes Document, school name is not one of the top factors program directors use to select candidates to interview/rank for residency positions, but as PD posted in the pre-MD forum a few months ago (re: does school name matter) if it matters even just a little, then yes, it truly does matter
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Well, I'm pretty sure America could use a few more docs in primary care... 🙄
In any case, DOs are growing fairly quickly both in terms of graduates and status. Where the MD or DO professions (or even healthcare in general) will be in 10 years is anybody's guess.
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Anyone else find it odd that it's MD students who haven't even gone through the match yet that are giving the OP advice on osteopathic students' chances of fellowships and residency? If you have an arrhythmia, you're probably better off asking a cardiologist for advice rather than asking an orthopedist what he's heard or googled about your condition, but I disgress...
Anyways, I'm out. If any pre-meds have questions about what really happens when you're a DO and the process getting there, feel free to PM me. Otherwise you're welcome to listen to people who haven't gone through the process but continue to spew hearsay or "what they've heard" from various scattered sources.
Anyways, I'm out. If any pre-meds have questions about what really happens when you're a DO and the process getting there, feel free to PM me. Otherwise you're welcome to listen to people who haven't gone through the process but continue to spew hearsay or "what they've heard" from various scattered sources.
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I actually applied to both schools as well. Got into TCOM and rejected from MSU. Luckily I get to stay in Texas at another school. Personally post interview I knew I would have chosen TCOM over MSU anyway. It is a cheap quality education.
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No, you missed the point: he is comparing the sheer numbers of students from TCOM and MSU that matched at top programs, and Iowa, Baylor, B&G, Chicago, and Cleveland Clinic, just happen to be programs that fit into this category. It's not about the specific institutions, it's about the trends
Actually, this just says that the State of Texas determines who will open what kind of medical school, and assigns it to the university of their choosing. The state legislature determines this - at least in Texas. And the school will be on the same campus, so not a "branch" anyways per se because the state wants to put another school in the metroplex.
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Define top program ... what makes it a top program??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
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You should ask InStateWaiter, not me
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The best training involves opportunity. Those top tier places have the best opportunity.
1) Clinical experience- because they have the name, they also get sent the rare disease from across the country. You get exposed to things most programs just don't ever see. You cannot know something you have never seen.
2) Volume- they see a lot of volume- generally more than other programs
3) Teaching- you have leaders in the field teaching you, rather than just some guy. You have the opportunity to learn from the best. There are distinctions that cannot be gleaned from books and nuances that come from learning the art of medicine.
4) Autonomy- this is becoming more common but nonetheless the top programs have the most autonomy. This means the people mature faster so that the JARs are at the level off SARs at other programs.
5) Research- top programs have much more $ and many more opportunities in this regard. They also have the leaders in the field doing research there.
6) Travel- the top programs will send (and pay) for rotations in other countries and have numerous opportunities set up for you if you dont want to do the leg work yourself.
7) Other - these programs have money out the wazoo for things that just make your life easier- travel expenses to national meetings, lunches everyday, research grants or whatever.
8) Fellowships- Most importantly the top programs match everyone to their desired fellowship... very few programs can actually say that 100% of residents who want a particular fellowship, get that fellowship.
The locations they go to also aren't podunk hospital, they are well known programs which again gives you a wider array of opportunity after fellowship. Even more so than in medical school, you can tell a lot about a program by their match list.
In the end it is all about opportunity. If you end up going in to family practice then it probably wont matter whether you go to RVU or Harvard for medical school. However, very few people know for sure going into medical school. Keeping all doors open is the smartest thing you can do.
Actually you did allude to the fact that there are people at your program who don't match. You said they match GI or Cards if they are qualified. So, there must have been some in the recent past who were "unqualified" and didnt match otherwise you wouldnt have said anthing of the sort.
To prove me wrong, why don't you post your program's fellowship match and match percentage for the last few years? I'm right aren't I?
Ahhh the old adhominem... Since I see obvious distinctions between programs I must have poor self esteem? That makes sense.
Life is about opportunity. Who is to say that a student (or resident) will not decide to pursue a competitive specialty or a competitive program. It is best not to close doors before you get to them.
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Incredible that I said qualified applicants get fellowships and you think I mean that the majority don't get them. You really don't think you have an anti-DO bias? Qualified MD applicants get into medical school, residency, and fellowship. It sounds different in your mind now, doesn't it? I'm sorry you have this naive idea that there are people walking around doing whatever they want simply because they came from a popular school. But you'll see once you get out into the real world this isn't what happens. There are no freebies in life. And now you want me to post my residency's fellowship matches?
Can I include a picture of my penis size? You have a lot of growing up to do my friend. Sure, I'll post my residency program, as well as my home address and social security number tomorrow lol. Suffice it to say, around 1/5 of our fellows are DOs (let's nip this one in the bud before it materializes - there are only 53,000 DOs in the US). More go to other hospitals. I have nothing to prove to you, this isn't a pissing contest. This is me painting an accurate picture for pre-meds as someone who has experienced everything and I will continue to speak the truth. On the other hand, you have spent multiple threads, hours googling different residency programs, reading 50 page reports from 2004, and asking DO residents to post their fellowship matches in an attempt to bash the DO profession. You obviously feel threatened that DOs have the same opportunities as you. Oh well, I'm sorry to hear that. Hopefully one day you'll realize there are people who are confident enough to make life decisions without worrying what you or others will think. Enjoy your life of envy.
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DOs constitute 20% of graduating seniors yet a tenth of a percent at those schools. That is over 2 orders of magnitude different.
And it's not proximity-
Columbia to NYCOM is 20 miles
Chicago- CCOM is in chicago
Cornell- NYCOM is 5 miles away
UCSF- Touro is under an hour to UCSF
Hopkins- both PCOM and UMDNJ are 100 miles away, VCOM and WVSOM are within driving distance
MGH/BIMC/B&W- UNECOM is under 100 miles away, tuoro is 200 miles away
Yale- TCOM is 75 miles away, UNECOM is 200 miles away
Vandy- DCOM is 200 miles away and in the same state.
you get the idea.
There is not a VAST experience difference with regard to the match between us. I have gone through everything in the match you have- applying, interviewing, ranking; the only difference is that I am waiting for my envelope to come in a month and you already got yours. There is no extra experience you get for waiting for the results to come out.
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Hey genius, I rotated at and received interviews at your top tier programs as a DO. I went through the osteopathic match (and withdrew). I rotated at osteopathic hospitals. You have no clue what you're talking about. Goodbye.
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You really don't think you have an anti-DO bias?
And now you want me to post my residency's fellowship matches?
This is me painting an accurate picture for pre-meds as someone who has experienced everything and I will continue to speak the truth... You obviously feel threatened that DOs have the same opportunities as you. Oh well, I'm sorry to hear that. Hopefully one day you'll realize there are people who are confident enough to make life decisions without worrying what you or others will think. Enjoy your life of envy.
On a personal level, I do not have a DO or MBBS bias at all. I have worked with exceptional DO attendings and great FMGs. I have worked with bad MD attendings. However, with regard to MD vs DO schools I no doubt do have an anti-DO bias.
People on SDN love to act like the opportunities from an MD school and a DO school are the same. They are definitely not the same. That is seen by variable quality of rotations, poorer outcomes on the boards and the disparity of match lists.
I am not threatened by DOs because largely I am not competing with them. That is what I am trying to say. I am not an exceptional student and come from a "low tier" MD school. Yet, I have had the opportunity to interview (and maybe even match) at some of the best programs in the world. Those opportunities would have been closed to me had I gone to a DO school.
So to the OP, I would recommend you weigh your options carefully. If you would be miserable at MSU, then that is not the school for you. However, if the difference is small, consider the decision carefully.
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Oh, you'll be back. This thread is a train wreck you can't help but to look at.
You keep saying that you rotated at these top tier programs... Now did you rotate at a bunch of these top tier programs, or just one? You're not extrapolating based on a bad experience at Columbia are you?
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IIRC the OP is looking at TCOM and MSU for their residency programs not for undergraduate medical education. I don't know anything about TCOM's GME consortium, but I do know that MSUCHM is affiliated with community hospitals (you know, the "podunk" kind.)
I'm not sure if the actual schools are really that important here (although, I'm not really sure - I'm just a first year). Wouldn't the real issue be the schools affiliated hospitals? I'd imagine that CHM's community based network would be comparable to that of TCOM's - but again I don't know anything about TCOM.
I did grow up in Grand Rapids - so I do know that Spectrum is a nice hospital. Hardly what I would call "podunk". I can say the same about Bronson/Borgess in K-Zoo and Sparrow/Ingham in Lansing.
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I think it's an honor that UNTHSC has been allowed to open an allopathic school. It is in part because our board scores are on par with the other allopathic institutions in the state. A poster above mentioned that the Texas legislature itself decides these kinds of things, and they have decided that we need to expand existing schools instead of build new ones to overcome physician shortages in Texas (it's not as costly to add on to existing buildings, rotations, etc.). It makes sense to add an allopathic school to UNTHSC if you've been following the politics.
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i think there are a few things being left out in this debate.
1) More students at DO schools choose to go into PC than MD. It's plain and simple fact and has nothing to do with the DO "philosophy." Does this hinder specialization....no. It just means less people will apply.
2) Why does one need to go to a "top-tier" MD program to become a cards/gi doc, or a doc in any specialty for that matter? Making an argument over Harvard Cardiology is limiting you to less than the top 1% of all medical students, MD or DO, in the country. Sure, you have a shot, but how realistic is it regardless of where you go?
3) Does the OP want to enter into the world of academic medicine or research in the future? Obviously MD or DO can do either, but it is much more emphasized in the MD world. Does the OP wanna be the doc the rarest of the rare come to, or does he/she not mind sending a patient to another doc in the same specialty bc his hospital/clinic isn't suitable for that patient's rare pathology, but can still care for 99% of his practice?
4) Most importantly.....trust your gut instinct. Go where you will be most happy. If your miserable, it doesn't matter if your degree is from Harvard or Po-Dunk-Hicktown. Med school is already stressful enough, why add misery to it? Don't let SDN or anyone else get in the way of "the feeling" because you are the only one who can hold you back.
1) More students at DO schools choose to go into PC than MD. It's plain and simple fact and has nothing to do with the DO "philosophy." Does this hinder specialization....no. It just means less people will apply.
2) Why does one need to go to a "top-tier" MD program to become a cards/gi doc, or a doc in any specialty for that matter? Making an argument over Harvard Cardiology is limiting you to less than the top 1% of all medical students, MD or DO, in the country. Sure, you have a shot, but how realistic is it regardless of where you go?
3) Does the OP want to enter into the world of academic medicine or research in the future? Obviously MD or DO can do either, but it is much more emphasized in the MD world. Does the OP wanna be the doc the rarest of the rare come to, or does he/she not mind sending a patient to another doc in the same specialty bc his hospital/clinic isn't suitable for that patient's rare pathology, but can still care for 99% of his practice?
4) Most importantly.....trust your gut instinct. Go where you will be most happy. If your miserable, it doesn't matter if your degree is from Harvard or Po-Dunk-Hicktown. Med school is already stressful enough, why add misery to it? Don't let SDN or anyone else get in the way of "the feeling" because you are the only one who can hold you back.
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Hey Mrpuff.
I'm a TCOM student. I like the school. I think it is most important to go where you are comfortable.
Unless you are debating TCOM vs Hopkins/Mayo/UCSF or something like that, then name of the school isn't going to make too much of a difference at the end of the day. What people care about are your board scores, your class rank and your dean's letter. I'm sure that you got the list of ACGME residency spots that TCOM grads had gotten into when you interviewed. Frankly, if you think you'll be a better student in Michigan and that you'll be happier and do better on the boards, then you should go there. If you think that TCOM is where you will be happy, then go there.
Point is that very few people want to do Plastics at Hopkins and it's funny that premeds will dole out advice with that as the goal. "If you go DO, you'll never land that Pediatric Neuroendocrinology slot at Hopkins." So you go do it somewhere else. If your scores are good, you can do whatever you want... except practice in Australia, but again, low level of likelihood.
I'm a TCOM student. I like the school. I think it is most important to go where you are comfortable.
Unless you are debating TCOM vs Hopkins/Mayo/UCSF or something like that, then name of the school isn't going to make too much of a difference at the end of the day. What people care about are your board scores, your class rank and your dean's letter. I'm sure that you got the list of ACGME residency spots that TCOM grads had gotten into when you interviewed. Frankly, if you think you'll be a better student in Michigan and that you'll be happier and do better on the boards, then you should go there. If you think that TCOM is where you will be happy, then go there.
Point is that very few people want to do Plastics at Hopkins and it's funny that premeds will dole out advice with that as the goal. "If you go DO, you'll never land that Pediatric Neuroendocrinology slot at Hopkins." So you go do it somewhere else. If your scores are good, you can do whatever you want... except practice in Australia, but again, low level of likelihood.
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This is golden. I burst out laughing in Starbucks, and everyone probably thought I was a big weirdo.
On a separate note, I'm struggling with the same problem as the OP--deciding between TCOM and an allopathic school. I've pretty much settled on TCOM though...it's a great school, the in-state tuition can't be beat, and I just got a really good feeling when I interviewed there.
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I would go to Jim Willy's Old-Time Lightning Bone Settin,' Osteopath Training (and Family Restaurant) School for instate tuition. It's the holy grail of the medical school experience.
if you say y'all you belong in Texas
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I've been pretty set on LECOM-Bradenton, but then today I get an interview invite from NYMC. Go figure.
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As you mentioned there are osteopathic students who do match in ACGME ophthalmology, so b/c your buddy didn't get in doesNOT mean anything except the fact that he/she probably (actually most likely) wasn't qualified or at least not a good fit for that particular spot. Remember getting into a residency is NOT all about your board scores, it also has to do with personality, LOR, EC activity and many other factors. Grades are at most 50-60% of the battle.
One person's failure (non-success I should say) is hardly a measure of anything except that one person's abilities.
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Grades and board scores make up almost all of an application. It is what gets you an interview. Getting only 4 interviews with almost a 250 when the average is 236 says a lot. He had all the right elements to get an interview: research, high grades, monster board scores. Once you are at the interview, they can tell if you will be a good fit. But to get to the interview, usually it is a pure numbers game in the competitive programs.
ECs are really only good as conversation starters on the interview trail. Who knows, maybe that person was really awkward which is why he didn't match. Usually though, they say you need to interview at a minimum of 10 places to match into a competitive program. Either his qualifications were lied about, he had a major red flag or there was something else in his application that caused him not to get interviews.
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I respectfully disagree with you….
Boards and school grades will get you pass the program's filter after that the LORs and ECs (to some degree) are major players for getting you the interview and your personality secures the spot for you.
Hypothetically speaking, if this individual had 3 LORs that indicated his is an incompetent a**-hole despite his high grades he wouldn't get an interview (not saying that he/she is one, just speaking hypothetically).
But again the point is that since other osteopathic students have matched in ACGME ophthalmology residencies, one person's failure to do so, doesn't reflect anything about the profession and only shows that person's achievements or lack thereof….
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This person actually does exist and is pretty much a stud and is a pretty nice guy. Problem is the guy decided on Ophtho some time in his 3rd year and failed to match at an ACGME program. He did end up matching EM and that's where he'll be. DO guys who match ACGME Ophtho usually start very early from what I have heard and seen. So they have significant research and all other good stuff by the time they are ready to apply. This is where the disadvantage that I spoke of comes in. I think an MD student with this guys credentials declares he/she wants ophtho even late in 3rd year will 95% of the time will get the spot, or at the very least will have more interviews than he/she could attend. That's all I am saying,.
