Temple IM Not taking DO's anymore?

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lightthelamp4

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I really hate posting this, but I really need some advice on this issue. I am a fourth year at a DO school and am extremely interested in Temple for residency, specifically IM (went to temple undergrad, from the area etc). However, it has circulated around my school and been "confirmed" by our administration that a new dean at Temple has made it a point to remove DO's from their IM/EM matches starting this year.

Before I knew any of that I applied through VSAS for Temple rotations, and I just got an acceptance from to do a cardio rotation there in a couple months. If anyone on here is a Temple resident or knows anything of this situation I would really really appreciate it if you could let me know if I should not waste me time on this rotation (if regardless of how strong an applicant I am I will not get a residency at Temple thanks to being a DO).

sorry to post this kind of stuff, I really cant stand DO vs MD conversation

thanks.
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What do you mean it's been confirmed by your administration? I would call the program (don't mention your last name) and just ask if there is a blanket policy. If there's not, don't let rumors influence your judgment.
 
you can call and ask but I doubt that a program would clearly say we do not accepts DOs or FMGs period (even if it's true). But they might give you a hint if that's really the case.
 
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In their post match survey they asked whether having DOs in their program made it seem less desirable. They have obviously been thinking about cutting out DOs for at least a year now. Given this move you can guess what the majority of responses were.
 
MeatTornado said:
In their post match survey they asked whether having DOs in their program made it seem less desirable. They have obviously been thinking about cutting out DOs for at least a year now. Given this move you can guess what the majority of responses were.
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How could Temple be "less desirable" than it already is?

I kid...sort of...it could be Drexel.
 
visari said:
you can call and ask but I doubt that a program would clearly say we do not accepts DOs or FMGs period (even if it's true). But they might give you a hint if that's really the case.
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I recall someone saying that they called Einstein (Bronx) and was told that DOs are not accepted.
 
I don't wanna go into this MD vs DO thing but if I were the PD of a mid-tier place, I would think that taking an average MD over a stellar DO is a poor decision. on the other hand, if I am at a desired place where I know I can recruit top-notch MDs then I might skip the DO thing all together. but hey, I am not a PD and I don't know jack**** about DO schools so I am sure there is more to this than I know.
 
medicineDoc11 said:
Unfortunately I've heard similar comments about Temple for IM. Like mentioned earlier, they will not likely flat out say they don't accept DOs but take a look at their incoming PGY-1 class and you'll have your data...
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How do you find info on PGY-1 classes at different programs? are they required to disclose them on their websites?
 
fancypantsdance said:
How do you find info on PGY-1 classes at different programs? are they required to disclose them on their websites?
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They aren't required to do anything but programs that don't have info on their website usually give you the necessary info during the interview
 
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meliora27 said:
Perhaps the context was missing then. My point was why the sudden change of heart. NYU, Vanderbilt, Tulane, Montefiore, explicitly state NO DO's. Up until now, Temple took DO's. I was curious as to why the sudden change of heart.
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well, many programs take DO and FMGs because they can't get MD students…as programs improve or recruit better, they may have more MD students apply…it may not have been that Temple explicitly states that the are not taking DOs, but that the MD students t they are ranking high on their list are now ranking Temple (though i kinda agree with gutonc there) higher as well and they are not having to go down further on their rank list to match.
 
meliora27 said:
Perhaps the context was missing then. My point was why the sudden change of heart. NYU, Vanderbilt, Tulane, Montefiore, explicitly state NO DO's. Up until now, Temple took DO's. I was curious as to why the sudden change of heart.
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IM is becoming more competitive and more US MDs are choosing IM as the future of some other specialties like anesthesia and radiology or thinking more of lifestyle and shying away from surgery. Also residency reputation is largely dependent on word of mouth and perception of applicants. The perception is that if you have DOs and IMGs your program is unable to attract US MDs for whatever reason and therefore is less desirable.
 
meliora27 said:
Perhaps the context was missing then. My point was why the sudden change of heart. NYU, Vanderbilt, Tulane, Montefiore, explicitly state NO DO's. Up until now, Temple took DO's. I was curious as to why the sudden change of heart.
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Tulane is taking a DO for neurosurgery...
 
rokshana said:
however the topic of the thread is Temple IM…different specialities will have different priorities and philosophies.
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The PD's wife may have cheated on him with 2 DOs, at the same time, twice. You never know where people's animosity stems from...
 
It's 2014 and we still are dealing with this nonesense.
 
Dr. Zombie said:
I figured that by this point things would've improved.
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Not really, although that's a normal expectation with the merger. Many IM PDs at university programs are hesitant to take DO applicants, if they can avoid it.
 
DermViser said:
Not really, although that's a normal expectation with the merger. Many IM PDs at university programs are hesitant to take DO applicants, if they can avoid it.
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I wonder how residency bias correlates to good quality employment.
 
Mad Jack said:
Tis not so. Such is the heavy price of learning bone magic.
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I mean id expect that from Derm or something but idk it's just IM might as well discriminate FM while these programs are at it.

DO students compared to MD students stay working in primary care instead of specializing via fellowships, so if anything they are doing the primary care shortage a disservice by cutting their chances lower that these physicians will stay as hospitalists.

In addition, I could be wrong but isn't Temple not a high-tier?
 
Dr. Zombie said:
I mean id expect that from Derm or something but idk it's just IM might as well discriminate FM while these programs are at it.

DO students compared to MD students stay working in primary care instead of specializing via fellowships, so if anything they are doing the primary care shortage a disservice by cutting their chances lower that these physicians will stay as hospitalists.

In addition, I could be wrong but isn't Temple not a high-tier?
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Maybe they want to appear higher tier by only taking MDs? The world may never know.
 
Dr. Zombie said:
I mean id expect that from Derm or something but idk it's just IM might as well discriminate FM while these programs are at it.

DO students compared to MD students stay working in primary care instead of specializing via fellowships, so if anything they are doing the primary care shortage a disservice by cutting their chances lower that these physicians will stay as hospitalists.

In addition, I could be wrong but isn't Temple not a high-tier?
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So in other words you think IM wouldn't have high standards? What program wouldn't want to increase its prestige? Temple has it's own MD medical school right? Also, DOs work in primary care more bc they're relegated to doing primary care based on their residencies, not bc necessarily they WANT to do primary care.
 
Dr. Zombie said:
I mean id expect that from Derm or something but idk it's just IM might as well discriminate FM while these programs are at it.

DO students compared to MD students stay working in primary care instead of specializing via fellowships, so if anything they are doing the primary care shortage a disservice by cutting their chances lower that these physicians will stay as hospitalists.

In addition, I could be wrong but isn't Temple not a high-tier?
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It is simple math. In the last 10 years there are more MD spots in this country with the same number of IM residency spots. New MD schools have opened in Florida, Texas, and I am sure other places I don't even know about. Old MD schools have increased their class sizes.

This is no longer the 1990's or early 2000's.

Everyone is feeling the crunch. Please don't take it personally, but with all the additional allopathic American MD grads, places like Temple (yes Temple, that not high-tier place) can be more selective. Like someone said, Temple is an MD allopathic American school. Why are you surprised that if they have a surge in applicants that they would give preference to MD candidates?
 
LoudBark said:
It is simple math. In the last 10 years there are more MD spots in this country with the same number of IM residency spots. New MD schools have opened in Florida, Texas, and I am sure other places I don't even know about. Old MD schools have increased their class sizes.

This is no longer the 1990's or early 2000's.

Everyone is feeling the crunch. Please don't take it personally, but with all the additional allopathic American MD grads, places like Temple (yes Temple, that not high-tier place) can be more selective. Like someone said, Temple is an MD allopathic American school. Why are you surprised that if they have a surge in applicants that they would give preference to MD candidates?
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You make valid points, and it's concerning that this crunch could be felt widespread to close doors on DOs in these next few years.

Though, I do not blame an MD-titled hospital to give preferences to MD applicants, I feel it is unfair that if you took DOs before, why out of nowhere decide to completely remove future opportunities, not on the basis of a crunch and the need to serve MD applicants first, but on the basis of DO applicants tarnishing their reputation (for whatever logic they propose).

I do hope that once the merger is in effect next year, that more hospitals do open up more doors for DO students, since ACGME is the only accrediting body that DOs could fall back on with the autonomy being removed from AOA.
 
Dr. Zombie said:
You make valid points, and it's concerning that this crunch could be felt widespread to close doors on DOs in these next few years.

Though, I do not blame an MD-titled hospital to give preferences to MD applicants, I feel it is unfair that if you took DOs before, why out of nowhere decide to completely remove future opportunities, not on the basis of a crunch and the need to serve MD applicants first, but on the basis of DO applicants tarnishing their reputation (for whatever logic they propose).

I do hope that once the merger is in effect next year, that more hospitals do open up more doors for DO students, since ACGME is the only accrediting body that DOs could fall back on with the autonomy being removed from AOA.
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well it may not be an active choice per se…say temple interviews 100 people (totally throwing a number out there) and ranks all 100 people…say they interviewed 50 MDs and 50 DOs…and they do rank all the MD applicants 1st and the DOs after that…Temple may have been going as deep as 75 on their rank list…so there were some MDs and some DOs…now…they are still ranking all the MDs 1st and then the DOs….but now MD students are ranking Temple higher for whatever reason….and Temple is only going down to 50 on their list…viola! all MDs at Temple...
 
Dr. Zombie said:
Though, I do not blame an MD-titled hospital to give preferences to MD applicants, I feel it is unfair that if you took DOs before, why out of nowhere decide to completely remove future opportunities, not on the basis of a crunch and the need to serve MD applicants first, but on the basis of DO applicants tarnishing their reputation (for whatever logic they propose).
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Programs need ways to screen out applicants so there are a manageable number of applications to fully review. This is no different than using grades, or school, or step 1 score.
 
Instatewaiter said:
Programs need ways to screen out applicants so there are a manageable number of applications to fully review. This is no different than using grades, or school, or step 1 score.
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Screening out applicants on basis of school attended is one thing, but if you want to if you want to talk about grades or step 1 scores, then we're talking about apples to apples. Can't speak for all DO schools, but when it comes to clinical grades at least, if your COM uses the NBME shelf exams and you've taken USMLE step 1 and 2, then it would be pretty easy to compare apples to apples.
 
meliora27 said:
Screening out applicants on basis of school attended is one thing, but if you want to if you want to talk about grades or step 1 scores, then we're talking about apples to apples. Can't speak for all DO schools, but when it comes to clinical grades at least, if your COM uses the NBME shelf exams and you've taken USMLE step 1 and 2, then it would be pretty easy to compare apples to apples.
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Except DO schools MS-3 rotation clerkship rotations sites are done at community hospitals and they take NBOME shelf exams (COMAT), not the NBME exams.
 
meliora27 said:
Screening out applicants on basis of school attended is one thing, but if you want to if you want to talk about grades or step 1 scores, then we're talking about apples to apples. Can't speak for all DO schools, but when it comes to clinical grades at least, if your COM uses the NBME shelf exams and you've taken USMLE step 1 and 2, then it would be pretty easy to compare apples to apples.
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How is this different than say, MGH interviewing one guy out of a handful with reasonable Step 1/Grades from Rosalind Franklin but everyone from Duke with the same stats? Same idea, a program will stratify based on percieved strength of the school.

Any shmuck can do well on step 1/NBMEs. That is why there are so many FMGs with great step 1 scores. It is only one piece of the puzzle. There are a lot of intangibles that can't be measured by standardized tests. A heuristic used by programs is quality of school attended for better or worse.
 
Dr. Zombie said:
Did you take any NBOME's? Were all your core rotations at community hospitals?
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Nope, ALL NBME exams. In fact, my school is switching next year so that all of the core sites are taking NBME exams. No more NBOME shelf exams.

My rotations were mainly at community hospitals but they were home to AOA residencies for the most part. So there was a definite teaching aspect. Only on outpatient family medicine was it just me and an attending.
 
Instatewaiter said:
How is this different than say, MGH interviewing one guy out of a handful with reasonable Step 1/Grades from Rosalind Franklin but everyone from Duke with the same stats? Same idea, a program will stratify based on percieved strength of the school.

Any shmuck can do well on step 1/NBMEs. That is why there are so many FMGs with great step 1 scores. It is only one piece of the puzzle. There are a lot of intangibles that can't be measured by standardized tests. A heuristic used by programs is quality of school attended for better or worse.
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Yup, you're definitely a Hopkins grad.
 
DermViser said:
But you went there for residency.
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True. Who better to say that the quality of med school matters and not just the standardized testing than someone who came from a unrankled school and then went to a well known residency? Again, any ***** can prepare for and do well on step 1 just by studing the stupid minutia that they keep testing. There is a reason why tons of FMGs who can barely speak English can do incredibly well on step 1 but be absolutely horrible clinically (not mutually inclusive). Being able to tell me that Beck's triad is muffled heart sound, +JVP and hypotension is one thing. Being able to diagnose tamponade clinically is very different given the fact that every single american heart failure patient in cardiogenic shock has the triad.

I have seen many people who had great scores and were terrible doctors (and more with bad scores who were terrible doctors). Good scores are not sufficient to make sure you as a PD are getting someone strong clinically. Were residency about sitting down and doing multiple choice exams it would be a very different story.
 
Instatewaiter said:
True. Who better to say that the quality of med school matters and not just the standardized testing than someone who came from a unrankled school and then went to a well known residency? Again, any ***** can prepare for and do well on step 1 just by studing the stupid minutia that they keep testing. There is a reason why tons of FMGs who can barely speak English can do incredibly well on step 1 but be absolutely horrible clinically (not mutually inclusive). Being able to tell me that Beck's triad is muffled heart sound, +JVP and hypotension is one thing. Being able to diagnose tamponade clinically is very different given the fact that every single american heart failure patient in cardiogenic shock has the triad.

I have seen many people who had great scores and were terrible doctors (and more with bad scores who were terrible doctors). Good scores are not sufficient to make sure you as a PD are getting someone strong clinically. Were residency about sitting down and doing multiple choice exams it would be a very different story.
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USMLE Step 1 is more than just rote memorization questions.
 
gutonc said:
No it's not.
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Are you saying one can do well on that test just by rote memorizing and recalling factoids? They've changed the format of the test a lot, to try to get away from rote memorization and buzzwords, to more application and critical thinking with clinical vignettes.
 
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DermViser said:
Are you saying one can do well on that test just by rote memorizing and recalling factoids? They've changed the format of the test a lot, to try to get away from rote memorization and buzzwords, to more application and critical thinking with clinical vignettes.
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I am saying precisely that. There is a reason people do well by memorizing first aid and doing all the usmle world questions. Nbme tests the exact same minutia which has little to no clinical relevance. If you memorize that stuff your score goes up markedly.
 
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