Terrible mistake, will get an institutional action after acceptance

[Lawpy]

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Members don't see this ad.

The point of my post was not to compare the two but to point out the slope.

Also if you want to save money, rent the book or see if you can buy it used off an upperclassman. That's not the point of this thread though.

I'm simply providing a reason why piracy is socially acceptable because it saves money. I don't know how it relates to cheating/acquiring finals being socially acceptable because the rationale has nothing to do with cost, but entirely out of lazy and malicious intent

To be clear: IAs that happened prior to med school DO NOT have to be reported to residency programs. ERAS (AMCAS for residency applications) only asks about IAs in med school. So if OP were to (by some miracle) keep his med school seat @mimelim's PD would never know that he had an IA before med school.



Yes, students with those kind of IAs do get into US MD schools. Probably more common at DO schools.

No idea what the DO policy on IA is because adcoms are referencing the AMCAS Instruction Manual. But that is extremely disheartening to hear.

 

[El-Rami]

some verbal knowledge that other people might have been cheating isn't something a school can use to prove that you cheated

a email trail showing you recieved non-allowed materials can absolutely end you.....as OP shows

You could also just report all incidences of cheating, even if you heard it verbally. You know... because it's right thing to do...

@Lawper In the eyes of the law, piracy is a form of theft. Its social acceptance is irrelevant. Also, how is it "extremely disheartening?" In order for those people to be admitted, there must have been a good reason that adcoms saw for allowing them to see the student as redeemable and sincere that they will not transgress again.

 

[Goro]

Do you realize how rare bad LORS are?????

We see far more IAS than bad LORs.

Professors aren't forced to write LORs when they can't vouch for the applicant. Abusing confidentiality by writing bad things about an applicant essentially makes the professor look bad. It's really no different from some random guy emailing the adcoms/dean of admissions bashing a specific applicant in mind.

 

[frosted_flake]

Why not just blanket throw out anyone with any IA (besides perhaps the alcohol ones)?

Just throw those out too.

 

[235009]

No idea what the DO policy on IA is because adcoms are referencing the AMCAS Instruction Manual. But that is extremely disheartening to hear.

I'm confused by your comment. I'm saying that they get in with an IA that they reported and were up front about.

 

[El-Rami]

Why not just blanket throw out anyone with any IA (besides perhaps the alcohol ones)?

Just throw those out too.

I made a post specifically addressing this issue. Perhaps because it's more "socially acceptable" (i.e., youth will be youth, doing stupid things). However, it is still a demonstration of dishonesty and poor lack of judgement, just as cheating is. When someone drinks while underage, they are likely using fake I.D.s (fraud), getting others to buy for them (encouraging others to break the law, convincing people to be dishonest, etc.), or getting people to sell to them despite knowing the person is underage just because the person is "cool with it." If deliberate acts of dishonesty are bad in one situation, they are bad in all others. If one is unacceptable, they are all unacceptable.

 

[Ismet]

I'm simply providing a reason why piracy is socially acceptable because it saves money. I don't know how it relates to cheating/acquiring finals being socially acceptable because the rationale has nothing to do with cost, but entirely out of lazy and malicious intent.

Piracy is theft. Are textbooks overpriced? Ridiculously so. It sucks. Piracy is a low risk, high reward practice, but it doesn't mean it's not fundamentally theft.

When universities outlaw torrenting programs on their internet and people go to Starbucks just to torrent, pretty sure that's malicious intent.

 

[Dr Tony T. Chopper]

Are GME PDs privy to UG IAs?

I don't have the citations but there are published studies showing that dishonest doctors start out as dishonest students.




As long as OP can write a check and is still breathing, there will be a seat for him at a Carib diploma mill.

Does OP still have a shot at a carribean school?

 

[Lawpy]

I'm confused by your comment. I'm saying that they get in with an IA that they reported and were up front about.

And that's what makes it upsetting! They got in despite the severity of the IAs! How is that possible when medical schools are risk averse?

Do you realize how rare bad LORS are?????

We see far more IAS than bad LORs.

They may be rare but the fact they exist is disappointing. Admittedly, I may be a bit overreacting though

Piracy is theft. Are textbooks overpriced? Ridiculously so. It sucks. Piracy is a low risk, high reward practice, but it doesn't mean it's not fundamentally theft.

When universities outlaw torrenting programs on their internet and people go to Starbucks just to torrent, pretty sure that's malicious intent.

You could also just report all incidences of cheating, even if you heard it verbally. You know... because it's right thing to do...

@Lawper In the eyes of the law, piracy is a form of theft. Its social acceptance is irrelevant. Also, how is it "extremely disheartening?" In order for those people to be admitted, there must have been a good reason that adcoms saw for allowing them to see the student as redeemable and sincere that they will not transgress again.

I agree piracy is bad but it is a far more beneficial means for a reasonable purpose of saving money as opposed to passing illegal finals that have no rewards. The evils of piracy are exaggerated because the only ones at fault are the servers hosting them

Risk-averse admissions and increased competition effectively deter those with IAs. If people with IAs get in, then admissions for that school really aren't risk averse or competitive as it is expected/portrayed

 

[Nietzschelover]

I made a post specifically addressing this issue. Perhaps because it's more "socially acceptable" (i.e., youth will be youth, doing stupid things). However, it is still a demonstration of dishonesty and poor lack of judgement, just as cheating is. When someone drinks while underage, they are likely using fake I.D.s (fraud), getting others to buy for them (encouraging others to break the law, convincing people to be dishonest, etc.), or getting people to sell to them despite knowing the person is underage just because the person is "cool with it." If deliberate acts of dishonesty are bad in one situation, they are bad in all others. If one is unacceptable, they are all unacceptable.

Breaking news....ALL applications will be withdrawn and there will be no incoming med school classes for 2016.

 

[DOFOSHO]

Hello SDN. Back in November, I was fortunate enough to get into one of my dream schools! Unfortunately, after that, I became very complacent with my grades and was at risk of getting a C or D in biochemistry if I didn't do really well on the final, which is worth 35% of the final grade. For the record, I was never planning to do anything wrong and was studying very hard for it. But my friend went to the professor's office hours and noticed that he was writing the final on his computer, which at that point was about 3/4 complete. He managed to take pictures of it when the professor left for some reason and sent them to me and other people. I did look at it and use it to study, I admit it. I felt like my back was against the wall. Somebody reported us and there's not really much I could do to defend myself because there was a whole email thread of discussion about the test questions that I was part of. I'm scheduled for a hearing after winter break, where I am told I will almost certainly get an institutional action. What should I do? If I tell the medical school I feel like I could get my admission rescinded. Is this something I legally have to report? I don't ever cheat. I feel so lost right now.

Edit: using new account for obvious reasons

If you get away with cheating once you will continue cheating for the remainder of your career. The stakes go higher and higher during medical school and so will your urge to cheat. Eventually you will cheat during med school, you will cheat your classmates, you will cheat your colleagues, and worst of all you will cheat your patients.

You are the problem. You should be expelled from your current school and your acceptance should be rescinded.

 

[Ismet]

I made a post specifically addressing this issue. Perhaps because it's more "socially acceptable" (i.e., youth will be youth, doing stupid things). However, it is still a demonstration of dishonesty and poor lack of judgement, just as cheating is. When someone drinks while underage, they are likely using fake I.D.s (fraud), getting others to buy for them (encouraging others to break the law, convincing people to be dishonest, etc.), or getting people to sell to them despite knowing the person is underage just because the person is "cool with it." If deliberate acts of dishonesty are bad in one situation, they are bad in all others. If one is unacceptable, they are all unacceptable.

The thing is, these are all considered largely on a case by case basis. We don't just see that there's an IA and toss it. The person's description of what happened is read, the time it occurred is taken into account, etc and if the person makes it to committee, each committee member is allowed to have their own opinion on how acceptable/unacceptable the infraction is and they vote accordingly.

A one time underage drinking offense in freshman year is not the same as 2 underage drinking offenses is not the same as underage drinking and marijuana possession is not the same as getting caught working together on an assignment is not the same as getting access to an exam and discussing the answers. As has been said earlier in the thread, each poses a risk, no one is denying that, but committees are allowed to determine if they want to take that risk or not.

 

[235009]

Are GME PDs privy to UG IAs?

I just answered that. No.

And that's what makes it upsetting! They got in despite the severity of the IAs! How is that possible when medical schools are risk averse?

If you were to only base your information on what you read from the 2 adcom members on SDN you might think that adcoms blanket reject anyone with an IA. That's not the case. On top of that those who get into med school despite an IA don't go around telling everyone/anyone about it so you may think everyone around you has been an upstanding citizen when that's in fact not the case.

 

[Nietzschelover]

If you get away with cheating once you will continue cheating for the remainder of your career. The stakes go higher and higher during medical school and so will your urge to cheat. Eventually you will cheat during med school, you will cheat your classmates, you will cheat your colleagues, and worst of all you will cheat your patients.

You are the problem. You should be expelled from your current school and your acceptance should be rescinded.

Well, no one is gonna mess with that avatar.

 

[DokterMom]

I made a post specifically addressing this issue. Perhaps because it's more "socially acceptable" (i.e., youth will be youth, doing stupid things). However, it is still a demonstration of dishonesty and poor lack of judgement, just as cheating is. When someone drinks while underage, they are likely using fake I.D.s (fraud), getting others to buy for them (encouraging others to break the law, convincing people to be dishonest, etc.), or getting people to sell to them despite knowing the person is underage just because the person is "cool with it." If deliberate acts of dishonesty are bad in one situation, they are bad in all others. If one is unacceptable, they are all unacceptable.

It's quite possible - easy even - to drink under-age without having a fake ID, buying alcohol under false premises, stealing alcohol, luring others into illegal acts or even lying about it. So rule-breaking, and arguably poor judgement -- but not necessarily any dishonesty. (Ever go to a frat party?)

Piracy is theft. Are textbooks overpriced? Ridiculously so. It sucks. Piracy is a low risk, high reward practice, but it doesn't mean it's not fundamentally theft.

Are textbooks over-priced? While they're certainly expensive (yikes!) they're also expensive to publish and relatively few copies are sold, limiting profit potential. So "over-priced" by what measure.

 

[Ismet]

It's quite possible - easy even - to drink under-age without having a fake ID, buying alcohol under false premises, stealing alcohol, luring others into illegal acts or even lying about it. So rule-breaking, and arguably poor judgement -- but not necessarily any dishonesty. (Ever go to a frat party?)



Are textbooks over-priced? While they're certainly expensive (yikes!) they're also expensive to publish and relatively few copies are sold, limiting profit potential. So "over-priced" by what measure.

True. Should have said expensive.

 

[Dr Tony T. Chopper]

Poor OP trapped in a living nightmare...I hope to hear an update post a few months from now when the dust has settled.

I wonder what are some of the most unforgivable IAs ADCOMs have seen.

 

[GrapesofRath]

It's quite possible - easy even - to drink under-age without having a fake ID, buying alcohol under false premises, stealing alcohol, luring others into illegal acts or even lying about it. So rule-breaking, and arguably poor judgement -- but not necessarily any dishonesty. (Ever go to a frat party?).

Isn't every single thing you just listed here dishonest? I guess if we are trying to use these examples to distinguish between "rule breaking and poor judgment" vs "dishonesty" I don't necesssairly see how these examples you listed also arent rather dishonest. Heck, from what ADCOMs have said here in the past, stealing is the type of thing that can come close to being on par with an academic IA in terms of the negative impact they can have on an application.

 

[Dr. Death]

But every once and a while, a thread comes along that incites debate and excitement with such vigor that it explodes to 6 pages in 24 hours

 

[Lawpy]

But every once and a while, a thread comes along that incites debate and excitement with such vigor that it explodes to 6 pages in 24 hours

I wish my threads were like that 🙁

 

[lalex]

Did OP mention what the actual final was? Did the professor change it or find out after?

 

[lalex]

I wish my threads were like that 🙁

It's easy. Just think of something ridiculous.🙄

 

[Spector1]

There are many on the waitlist who will gladly take your seat.

 

[DokterMom]

"It's quite possible - easy even - to drink under-age without having a fake ID, buying alcohol under false premises, stealing alcohol, luring others into illegal acts or even lying about it. So rule-breaking, and arguably poor judgement -- but not necessarily any dishonesty. (Ever go to a frat party?)."

Isn't every single thing you just listed here dishonest? I guess if we are trying to use these examples to distinguish between "rule breaking and poor judgment" vs "dishonesty" I don't necesssairly see how these examples you listed also arent rather dishonest. Heck, from what ADCOMs have said here in the past, stealing is the type of thing that can come close to being on par with an academic IA in terms of the negative impact they can have on an application.

You misunderstand me. I agree that the following are dishonest:

• having a fake ID,
  
• buying alcohol under false premises,
  
• stealing alcohol,
  
• luring others into illegal acts (buying alcohol for minors)
  
• lying (about drinking)

But I'd maintain that going to a frat party and consuming free alcohol there isn't "dishonest" -- just evidence of rule-breaking and possible poor judgement.

 

[terra330]

"It's quite possible - easy even - to drink under-age without having a fake ID, buying alcohol under false premises, stealing alcohol, luring others into illegal acts or even lying about it. So rule-breaking, and arguably poor judgement -- but not necessarily any dishonesty. (Ever go to a frat party?)."



You misunderstand me. I agree that the following are dishonest:

• having a fake ID,
  
• buying alcohol under false premises,
  
• stealing alcohol,
  
• luring others into illegal acts (buying alcohol for minors)
  
• lying (about drinking)

But I'd maintain that going to a frat party and consuming free alcohol there isn't "dishonest" -- just evidence of rule-breaking and possible poor judgement.

Most schools' codes of conduct mention something about underage drinking not being allowed. Isn't it dishonest to agree to that code and then deliberately put yourself in a situation where you'll drink underage?

 

[Nietzschelover]

Most schools' codes of conduct mention something about underage drinking not being allowed. Isn't it dishonest to agree to that code and then deliberately put yourself in a situation where you'll drink underage?

@DokterMom, being realistic and reasonable just doesn't pay 😉

 

[lalex]

Most schools' codes of conduct mention something about underage drinking not being allowed. Isn't it dishonest to agree to that code and then deliberately put yourself in a situation where you'll drink underage?

Yes and at my school, there were a number of instances where students had alcohol poisoning/overdose and their friends did not seek medical attention because if they did, they would get an IA.

 

[Goro]

I have interviewed (because we don't pre-screen, alas) and rejected people have done:

Assault
Having someone else take an exam for the candidate
Stealing an exam from a professor
Drug dealing
Multiple DUIs
Getting expelled for cheating
Shoplifting
Cheating on an exam
Cheating on an assignment
Forgery
Theft
Sexual harassment
Failing out of medical school (for any reason)

Poor OP trapped in a living nightmare...I hope to hear an update post a few months from now when the dust has settled.

I wonder what are some of the most unforgivable IAs ADCOMs have seen.

 

[DrZeke]

As others above have stated, a "crime against humanity" is not the minimal criteria for committing an unethical act that calls into question your ability to be an honest or ethical physician. As @Goro keeps reminding,





^^^ This.Stated in the best possible way. Expecting integrity and honesty from someone who wants to be a physician is not a "high horse" scenario. Other people's transgressions do not invalidate this standard, and holding people accountable for their poor choices is the only way to maintain it

I didn't say he shouldn't be held accountable or that what he did was excusable. But acting like he made a series of decisions that were poor and nothing happened to him isn't true. He stated that he was sent a test. He made the mistake of actively participating in the cheating. But like someone else here mentioned all the people involved were put In a bad position. They had to report the person who sent the test save they be accused of cheating themselves. Many people I know don't even check their email regularly, let alone know what's in it. Maybe had the OP Never been sent the test none of this would have ever happened. Is it a testament to his moral character, yes. But was he put in a super bad position, also yes. He just made a bad choice. And I'm sorry but when I was 18-22 although I wasn't a cheater, a liar or immoral, I probably wouldn't have even reacted to that email. And maybe someone would be holding me accountable for cheating and I wouldn't have even realized.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but is that not what the OP said? He was sent a test that he did not ask for? Would everyone have reacted perfectly? Probably not. I just don't like the implication that he wasn't at all victimized or put in an awkward position. Because based on his story you sound really harsh.

 

[deleted647690]

I have interviewed (because we don't pre-screen, alas) and rejected people have done:

Assault
Having someone else take an exam for the candidate
Stealing an exam from a professor
Drug dealing
Multiple DUIs
Getting expelled for cheating
Shoplifting
Cheating on an exam
Cheating on an assignment
Forgery
Theft
Sexual harassment
Failing out of medical school (for any reason)

You rejected all of these? Are there any instances you can think of where you accepted an applicant with such a history?

 

[Goro]

Me personally? Yup, every one of 'em.

You rejected all of these?


I believe that my Adcom colleagues have accepted people with some type of cheating history (nothing like the OPs, though), and I think a shoplifter too.

Are there any instances you can think of where you accepted an applicant with such a history?

 

[deleted482591]

For Colorado/Washington med schools / applicants / undergraduate schools: Is underage pot possession/usage worse than underage alcohol possession/usage?

 

[DrZeke]

The thing is, these are all considered largely on a case by case basis. We don't just see that there's an IA and toss it. The person's description of what happened is read, the time it occurred is taken into account, etc and if the person makes it to committee, each committee member is allowed to have their own opinion on how acceptable/unacceptable the infraction is and they vote accordingly.

A one time underage drinking offense in freshman year is not the same as 2 underage drinking offenses is not the same as underage drinking and marijuana possession is not the same as getting caught working together on an assignment is not the same as getting access to an exam and discussing the answers. As has been said earlier in the thread, each poses a risk, no one is denying that, but committees are allowed to determine if they want to take that risk or not.

This was how my medical school worked as well when I sat on the committee . We pre screened and those that were lucky enough to receive an interview invite definitely were questioned about the action and how they had learned from it.

I think most committees will have a very hard time accepting cheating. However, i still feel bad for OP, because like I said in my last post, this test kind of landed in his inbox. He didn't actively seek out cheating, but he sure has a judgement lapse and probably did not think it through completely. This is a real shame.

 

[DrZeke]

I have interviewed (because we don't pre-screen, alas) and rejected people have done:

Assault
Having someone else take an exam for the candidate
Stealing an exam from a professor
Drug dealing
Multiple DUIs
Getting expelled for cheating
Shoplifting
Cheating on an exam
Cheating on an assignment
Forgery
Theft
Sexual harassment
Failing out of medical school (for any reason)

Sounds about right. I commend these people for having the balls to apply, but I found myself shaking my head...

 

[TBV]

Damn kids these days don't even know how to lie, cheat or steal. everyone has to document it and really incriminate themselves. If you take the pics keep them for yourself, if you want to share print from an off campus printer. Christ it's like you kids don't even try anymore

 

[Ismet]

This was how my medical school worked as well when I sat on the committee . We pre screened and those that were lucky enough to receive an interview invite definitely were questioned about the action and how they had learned from it.

I think most committees will have a very hard time accepting cheating. However, i still feel bad for OP, because like I said in my last post, this test kind of landed in his inbox. He didn't actively seek out cheating, but he sure has a judgement lapse and probably did not think it through completely. This is a real shame.

He said himself that he actively participated in the email chain and was discussing answers. It's one decision not to report it, another decision to actually participate.

 

[deleted647690]

Me personally? Yup, every one of 'em.

You rejected all of these?


I believe that my Adcom colleagues have accepted people with some type of cheating history (nothing like the OPs, though), and I think a shoplifter too.

Are there any instances you can think of where you accepted an applicant with such a history?

Did you reject these applicants because they didn't reflect adequately on their actions? Could there have been any level of reflection or action that would result in an acceptance for these?

 

[Vandelay Industries]

As I think about what happened to OP, I couldn't help but think about this guy who started out in my med school class. Rumor was that he joked with people about how he often cheated in undergrad when faced with tough exams. At the end of the Anatomy, he was dismissed from the college. One of our anatomy professors told us that he was caught trying to sneak into the anatomy lab prior to our practical to take pictures of tagged structures. Could the rumors be made up? Sure, but I would be willing to bet that a cheater in med school probably cheated in undergrad too.

I think people who cheat in academics will likely continue to cheat, until they are caught. Remember that guy in Canada who forged signatures on his EM rotation, and made it out like he was the victim when he was kicked out? Imagine if that dude graduated and went to a residency program...

What begins as academic dishonesty could very well harm a patient one day:

Senior resident: "Did you check the potassium on the DKA guy?"
Dishonest intern: "(Oh s***, I forgot to check) Yeah...it was fine". Then dishonest intern forgets to follow up on it, and it was 7.7

Maybe an exaggerated example, but not outside the realm of possibilities

 

[Dral]

OP, if this ends up being something that keeps you out of medical school now, you may not be totally sunk.

You could maybe start your alternate career and then apply years down the road. You could maybe get an acceptance with the 'young and stupid' reasoning.

Not sure if it will work, but it's a possible option.

 

[deleted480308]

You could also just report all incidences of cheating, even if you heard it verbally. You know... because it's right thing to do...

I wasn't answering a question about what someone should do. I was answering a question about the likelihood of accusations/punishment for someone in two different situations

 

[chizledfrmstone]

Something's a little fishy here...

 

[raiderette]

Something's a little fishy here...

What is fishy? He cheated, got caught and is desperate not to lose his spot.

 

[235009]

Senior resident: "Did you check the potassium on the DKA guy?"
Dishonest intern: "(Oh s***, I forgot to check) Yeah...it was fine". Then dishonest intern forgets to follow up on it, and it was 7.7

Maybe an exaggerated example, but not outside the realm of possibilities

It is outside the realm of possibility because the problem in DKA is hypokalemia. N00b

 

[Lost in Translation]

#rekt

 

[RunningKing]

Say you did not look at the email


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[allanMED15]

Say you did not look at the email


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

OP said that he participated in the email thread.

 

[Goro]

Some things you can't justify or escape from, especially when we have so many other quality applicants who don't have these on their record.

I have yet to ever see an applicant who has done this, but if someone like the OP joined the armed forces or tauther with TFA for several years, I'd probably cut them some slack.

Medical school is not a charity, nor is it the Make-A-Wish foundation.

Did you reject these applicants because they didn't reflect adequately on their actions? Could there have been any level of reflection or action that would result in an acceptance for these?

 

[DrZeke]

He said himself that he actively participated in the email chain and was discussing answers. It's one decision not to report it, another decision to actually participate.

Still given to him. Placed with the choice. He chose wrong . yes he participated. I can still have sympathy/ empathy, right? That doesn't make me morally/ethically stunted... Does it?

 

[Ismet]

Still given to him. Placed with the choice. He chose wrong . yes he participated. I can still have sympathy/ empathy, right? That doesn't make me morally/ethically stunted... Does it?

Didn't say you can't have sympathy/empathy. I was just clarifying.

 

[WingedOx]

Didn't say you can't have sympathy/empathy. Just clarifying.

Seeing people have to come to grips with the consequences of their decisions is something that's happened a lot in my young career. Being calloused about it is a crappy way to cope with the sh-ttiness of it all.