TFP Thread

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I have a lot of TFP type questions and I’m sure other podiatrists do too. This is a great place to ask TFP or general podiatry questions.

Firstly, all my permanent nail avulsions look awful after. I apply three 20 second applications of phenol and will (sometimes) wipe the surrounding skin with an alcohol wipe after and apply silvadene ointment. Is there anything else I should be doing so that I don’t have them calling me in a couple days saying that it looks awful, draining “pus”, three-five days after?

I honestly want to bring them back in 2 weeks so I can be out of the global but I’m still not confident to leave some of these patients out that long without being seen.

I also have thought about prescribing bactroban ointment for all my post op permanent nail avulsions but was unsure if that’s overdoing it.
 
You're likely causing chemical burns with the phenol. Simply wiping the skin with an alcohol swab won't do the trick. You need to flush it out with either saline or alcohol. Neither one 'neutralizes' the phenol, it's all about diluting/flushing it out. Some people will apply a layer of vaseline or some other barrier ointment around the skin prior to phenol application, but I think that just adds time.
 
I have a lot of TFP type questions and I’m sure other podiatrists do too. This is a great place to ask TFP or general podiatry questions.

Firstly, all my permanent nail avulsions look awful after. I apply three 20 second applications of phenol and will (sometimes) wipe the surrounding skin with an alcohol wipe after and apply silvadene ointment. Is there anything else I should be doing so that I don’t have them calling me in a couple days saying that it looks awful, draining “pus”, three-five days after?

I honestly want to bring them back in 2 weeks so I can be out of the global but I’m still not confident to leave some of these patients out that long without being seen.

I also have thought about prescribing bactroban ointment for all my post op permanent nail avulsions but was unsure if that’s overdoing it.
Should have gone to a VA residency.
 
I have a lot of TFP type questions and I’m sure other podiatrists do too. This is a great place to ask TFP or general podiatry questions.

Firstly, all my permanent nail avulsions look awful after. I apply three 20 second applications of phenol and will (sometimes) wipe the surrounding skin with an alcohol wipe after and apply silvadene ointment. Is there anything else I should be doing so that I don’t have them calling me in a couple days saying that it looks awful, draining “pus”, three-five days after?

I honestly want to bring them back in 2 weeks so I can be out of the global but I’m still not confident to leave some of these patients out that long without being seen.

I also have thought about prescribing bactroban ointment for all my post op permanent nail avulsions but was unsure if that’s overdoing it.
Looking awful afterwards is part of the process. The more infected it is before, the longer it will take to heal. I always tell patients to wash out the crust on a daily basis so they're expecting the drainage and not suprised by them. I then reassure them "time heals all wounds" which we know is a lie but it makes them feel better. I stopped reappointing patients 2 weeks after a matrixectomy because by the 2 week mark, they're healed well enough that they don't want to make a copay to just tell me they're in the clear and more often no-show the appointment. If it is going to become infected, that will happen at the 3-5 day mark, so I tell patients to call the office and I can e-prescribe some antibiotics which saves them a trip as well as saving me a same-day emergency 99024.
 
You're likely causing chemical burns with the phenol. Simply wiping the skin with an alcohol swab won't do the trick. You need to flush it out with either saline or alcohol. Neither one 'neutralizes' the phenol, it's all about diluting/flushing it out. Some people will apply a layer of vaseline or some other barrier ointment around the skin prior to phenol application, but I think
This was a classic TFP argument of to do that vs not to do that and based on results I think I will now flush it out.
 
I use 5cc saline flush.

I tell all my matrixectomies "this is going to look awful. Its going to look infected. Its going to be red, hot, swollen, and you will likely see something that looks like pus. This is all part of the procedure. Its a chemical burn. Burns look nasty for awhile. I would be happy to see you back in 7-10 days or if you want to come back as needed thats ok too. Just know it will be very swollen for awhile. If redness goes beyond this crease (IPJ) call me.

That is word for word what I tell them. Canned speach just like my plantar fasciitis talk.

Almost none come back. So far havent had any issues.
 
What I do on 99% of nail matrix proc, esp recur ones... my main assist and I bust these out in about 15min usually (maybe 25min if bilat bi-border)
  • double or triple skin prep, cryo spray and 4-5cc lico most adults (don't try to be a hero and do 2-3cc block... wastes time, causes pain very often), inform them they may get a bruise at inject site and no problem
  • digit band (arm IV tourniquet 15cents cut in half, twist hemostat... so phenol's not diluted, aids visualization) on 90% of ppl with good bloodflow (don't do matrix at all if any question of PAD, do avulsion +/- abx on PAD pts)
  • After edge avulsion, use the 6200 sterile blade tip to cut the matrix tissue in a square pattern, pull it out with hemostat (basically do a surgical matrix AND then chemical)
  • Phenol single use vials (fresher chemical, doesn't vapor up the room, no chance of big problem if bottle dropped)
  • MICRO tip cotton applicators (this is a must, regular cotton tips a hospital or MSG office are terrible)
  • Approx 3x30sec for most matrix, maybe 4 or 5 for a revision that regrew ... alc rinse 4-6 times over (rinse is quantity of them, not volume... chem class), rinse with the 1cc lido left in the syringe, very light small compress dsg2" kling stretch around ankle 4x4 soft at proc site and 1" coban over that fits into their shoe.
  • Post procedure care bag with alc pads and fabric band aids and print instructions (costs me well less then $1, save them trip to drug store)

I tell them to just supply the OTC acet or nsaid, use it when they get home (before lido wears off) and then as needed (usually 2-5d).
Instruction is to leave my small roll bandage for about 2 days, then alc and band aid at least daily, showers but NO soaking or swimming. Alc and air it out whenever sitting with no pets around. Abx oint only if looking very dry.

The soaking is for imbeciles. There is absolutely no evidence for it. It makes no sense. It is something PCPs and midlevels and dumb pods advise it, and I have no idea why. It's taught that way in our schools and residencies, it's on the internet, and it shouldn't be. Tap water's not sterile. Wounds do better neutral/dry than macerated... and matrix is inherently a draining wound. We all know that 95% of the nail procedures that get infected got macerated.
These do much better drying out sooner and making escar... I encourage airing out whenever possible after the first couple days. It's better to do no soaking (showers ok, then alc cleanse and band aid if they are going to wear shoes). At the 2-3wk follow up (defintely 10+ days 🙂 ), i usually just do a look, sometimes a curette debridement, betadine it if they're not allergic to really dry it, allow return to soaks/swim then or soon after, another alc + band aid bag if they need it, rare PO abx and very rare I&D small abscess (they'd 90% call office sooner).

....so yeah, I basically do matrix normally, with 3 things most pods do not:
  1. Add the surgical matrix part... whatever we can do to lower recurrence (we are the specialist... PCP/Peds who referred wants results, people pay money, time off work to get these done - assuming typical PP patients).
  2. Single use phenol vials... expensive, sure, but many advantages, better results (again... we're specialist, $3 is nothing for $200+ proc, ppl spend time and money and want best outcomes). I'm not saying that PP pts are better than govt VA or MCA or etc patients getting "free" visits with little choice of doc/facility. They all deserve good care and results, but there is 100% an expectations difference. Private pts have choices. PCPs sending their private pts have choices. Give the best outcomes (if you have any control of your supplies).
  3. No soaking... common sense to me, but to each their own. Bags with alc and band aids (again, make it easy, encourage compliance, and good doc/pt relation move). Even if you can't control supplies, you can definitely control the post procedure instructions.
I tell people the success is 85-90% for each nail edge treated if not infected at the time - maybe 50/50 if highly cellulitic or abscessed. I am amaaaaaazed how many recurs there are from other docs... no just spicules, total regrowth despite patient saying the used phenol. I don't know if it's old phenol, bad technique, it was highly cellulitic to begin with? There is even gangrene occasionally from doing these on PVD patients; I've seen it and it's very sad convo with patients. I have rare recurs of my own, and I might re-do those without charging if the pt clearly followed direction (will just charge e/m, not proc).

This is fairly easy procedure is not easy... hence tons of PCPs and UCare and midlevels and even pods messing them up. Still, we do these basically every day (sometimes many times in a day!), and we should be awesome and fast at them. That's what works for me.
 
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You are a master TFP

Also this is the first time I'm hearing you're not supposed to soak and grow nails. Warm water and Epsom salts Don't care if it's got peppermint oil or other stuff in it. Hell may as well make some money and put vancomycin in it
 
You are a master TFP

Also this is the first time I'm hearing you're not supposed to soak and grow nails. Warm water and Epsom salts Don't care if it's got peppermint oil or other stuff in it. Hell may as well make some money and put vancomycin in it
I will talk to my compound pharma to see if I can sell the vanco water for a fair rate, yes. "Feli's Favorite Nail Elixir"?

Hbo Gemstoneshbo GIF by The Righteous Gemstones


I just tell ppl to treat it like a stitch is there... clean, DRY, covered when in shoes.

The soaking is TFP central.
I honestly believe it was an old school PCP thing for abscessed ingrowns... that was then mistaken as good post procedure advice (it's absolutely not).
 
Sometimes I see the drainage dry and clog up the corners in people who don’t follow instructions - not soaking or keeping it covered. Maybe would have had an infection anyways because they didn’t care for it properly. I’ve only had a couple so far this happened to, but I do tell them to soak and have only had problems when they didn’t follow instructions (I print out instruction sheet for them).

I don’t see an issue with soaking as long as they dry it properly afterwards and then keep it covered. We irrigate wounds all the time, dry them and keep them covered.
 
...We irrigate wounds all the time, dry them and keep them covered.
You irrigate open wounds with tap water, soap water, epsom salts? Hmm.

I've honestly never seen a derm recommend that after a shave biopsy or an ortho advise people to soak their TKA site sutures with tap water. 🙂
 
@Feli you mention there is gangrene in these. Yikes. What’s the chance of that if you have palpable pulses almost 0?

Agree with you though. I’ve never thought soaking made sense for the reasons you’ve mentioned
 
You irrigate open wounds with tap water, soap water, epsom salts? Hmm.

I've honestly never seen a derm recommend that after a shave biopsy or an ortho advise people to soak their TKA site sutures with tap water. 🙂
Go easy on me, my mustache is still coming in slowly
 
Is there anything else I should be doing so that I don’t have them calling me in a couple days saying that it looks awful, draining “pus”, three-five days after?

I think it’s been addressed but this is an education thing. You need to tell patients that you are causing a chemical burn. It is going to be red, angry, and it will drain fluid that is yellow/white. It is not infected and that is not “pus.” Personally, I use sodium hydroxide and dilute with acetic acid. I see back in 2 weeks. Sometimes they are still a little red at that point and there is usually still some serous drainage.

The only time I tell the patient they may call the office concerned with infection is if those symptoms are improving day 4,5,6 post procedure and THEN start to worsen. If that happens I just send PO abx and have them keep the previously scheduled f/u. The things they notice post procedure are essentially never signs of infection 2,3,4 days after the procedure. They are a result of the chemical you put on the nail matrix. Patient just needs to have that beaten into their skulls.
 
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@Feli you mention there is gangrene in these. Yikes. What’s the chance of that if you have palpable pulses almost 0?

Agree with you though. I’ve never thought soaking made sense for the reasons you’ve mentioned
I’ve had matrixes lead to amps and gangrene from outside docs. This has always been due to poor patient selection and playing low and loose with doing matrixes on every old/frail/unhealthy/PAD person who comes in w a painful (not truly ingrown) nail that should’ve just had a trimming.

I’d say a vast majority of true ingrown nail pathology happens in the kids and teen years. When you’re older it’s usually because you did something wrong trimming your nails or hurt your toe
 
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True story about foot baths...

A while back, the director of the ER called me up asking for an emergency visit for his disabled elderly sister for her ingrown. I guess I made a good enough impression in my community that my name came up. Still I'm always mindful of the ancient Chinese curse "may you come to attention of those in authority."

So anyway, I carved time out of my schedule and he personally brought her in, and as I'm numbing her up, we start talking about medicine and stuff. He asked if he should soak her feet in epsom salts afterwards. I told him I thought it was just a folk remedy, like eating chicken soup when you have a cold. Plus there's an absolute nonsense mayo clinic article out there that it can help replete your magnesium. Yeah, because I definitely want to top off my magnesium levels via the pedal route.

At this point he starts wondering. Before becoming a doctor, he did research in electrophysiology. After some thought, he figured it out: the epsom salts bath creates an oncotic pressure gradient that will draw out inflammatory exudate from the wound.

I still don't recommend epsom salt baths mainly because pts do it for 2 days and then get bored. But there is a scientific rationale!
 
I’d say a vast majority of true ingrown nail pathology happens in the kids and teen years.
Here's another TFP insight: it's often the kids with ADHD or autism or similar neurosis. What's that got to do with anything?

The child probably won't admit it, and the parents might not have noticed, but these patients will compulsively pick at their nails, seeding the paronychia. See: Dermatotillomania

Hyperhidrosis is another predisposing factor in paronychias, as well as warts and athlete's foot. When I ask about sweaty feet, most of my patients think this is a perfectly normal thing and haven't bothered to address it. (OTC certaindri)
 
Why are we over complicating this

Numb. No tournie. Cut. Single sterile phenol stick. Coban wrap and see ya. I have instructions typed and printed out they are given while their toe marinades in marcaine. In and out 2 minutes.
 
Why are we over complicating this

Numb. No tournie. Cut. Single sterile phenol stick. Coban wrap and see ya. I have instructions typed and printed out they are given while their toe marinades in marcaine. In and out 2 minutes.
One phenol swab is enough? Interesting..
 
I find soaking in any form dumb as well.
Here's another TFP insight: it's often the kids with ADHD or autism or similar neurosis. What's that got to do with anything?

The child probably won't admit it, and the parents might not have noticed, but these patients will compulsively pick at their nails, seeding the paronychia. See: Dermatotillomania

Hyperhidrosis is another predisposing factor in paronychias, as well as warts and athlete's foot. When I ask about sweaty feet, most of my patients think this is a perfectly normal thing and haven't bothered to address it. (OTC certaindri)
Love certain dri
🦞
 
One phenol swab is enough? Interesting..
Why are we over complicating this

Numb. No tournie. Cut. Single sterile phenol stick. Coban wrap and see ya. I have instructions typed and printed out they are given while their toe marinades in marcaine. In and out 2 minutes.
Personally I do everything possible to have a bloodless field. Blood buffers the phenol. Tourniquet. Dry swab sticks into the treatment site until its totally absent of any blood. Then use treated sticks in bloodless field.

0% failure/recurrence rate.
 
Also I HATE those individual swab sticks. Increased chance I get it on me. Oh the smell cry more. Give me my metal cup and dropper bottle.

And yeah. No tourniquet is crazy. Blood makes phenol not work and it gets everywhere no thanks.
 
I need to lobster up on my knowledge of non surgical things. Never heard of certaindri. I don't care about and avoid talking about sweaty feet. I AM A SURGEON.
Bigly

Only recently started using 5FU, only cantharidin or bust before.
 
I need to lobster up on my knowledge of non surgical things. Never heard of certaindri. I don't care about and avoid talking about sweaty feet. I AM A SURGEON.
Bigly

Only recently started using 5FU, only cantharidin or bust before.
CertainDri will cause itching in a lot of ppl... try small amount miconazole powder (Zeasorb AF or similar) first line, then can add CertainDri or other AlCl roll if that doesn't work well enough.

You should apply for your CAQ in TFP a year's end also.
 
The problem with the single use swab sticks is they’re too bulky for some nails. Also yeah splash back from the puncture sucks. I like using narrow pointed swabs that are able to reach the matrix
 
I puncture them while the thing is still in the white package so I don’t get the splash back. And yeah I agree they are too thick in many cases.
 
Never heard of certaindri.
IMO its the best for swamp foot/stank foot.

I sometimes tell people scrub with chlorhexidine scrub then certain dri every 2-3 days if their feet are foul.

"most people go through a part of their life that their feet are sweaty, Youre in it now. Someday it will subside. But until then I recommend certain dri roll on or spray every 2-3 days until you grow out of this phase. If you prefer natural remedies can consider concentrated black tea soaks to slow sweating but it doesnt work as well"

I havent had the itching complaint.

Forgot about Zeasorb.
 
Oral terbinafine works. If they want it they get it. I was taught by true 🦞's in pod school never Rx it because it doesnt work and it causes liver failure. Better to see them back every 3 months to debride nails.

It also doesnt cause liver issues. Really - has anyone seen a liver problem from terbinafine? I havent and I have Rx at least 1000x.

I still check liver enzymes before Rx (or within 3ish months). But I dont check again. Modern literature supports this.

Pretty easy 992x4.
 
Yeah I usually just ask them if they have liver problems and most people have a CMP within the last year.

Recently saw a patient that their PCP put them on oral Lamisil for 1 year straight lol. No liver enzyme elevation or other problems.
 
IMO its the best for swamp foot/stank foot.

I sometimes tell people scrub with chlorhexidine scrub then certain dri every 2-3 days if their feet are foul.

"most people go through a part of their life that their feet are sweaty, Youre in it now. Someday it will subside. But until then I recommend certain dri roll on or spray every 2-3 days until you grow out of this phase. If you prefer natural remedies can consider concentrated black tea soaks to slow sweating but it doesnt work as well"

I havent had the itching complaint.

Forgot about Zeasorb.

IMO its the best for swamp foot/stank foot.

I sometimes tell people scrub with chlorhexidine scrub then certain dri every 2-3 days if their feet are foul.

"most people go through a part of their life that their feet are sweaty, Youre in it now. Someday it will subside. But until then I recommend certain dri roll on or spray every 2-3 days until you grow out of this phase. If you prefer natural remedies can consider concentrated black tea soaks to slow sweating but it doesnt work as well"

I havent had the itching complaint.

Forgot about Zeasorb.
1000030613.jpg
 
Oral terbinafine works. If they want it they get it. I was taught by true 🦞's in pod school never Rx it because it doesnt work and it causes liver failure. Better to see them back every 3 months to debride nails.

It also doesnt cause liver issues. Really - has anyone seen a liver problem from terbinafine? I havent and I have Rx at least 1000x.

I still check liver enzymes before Rx (or within 3ish months). But I dont check again. Modern literature supports this.

Pretty easy 992x4.
I don't order LFT. 30 days is how I treat athlete's foot. Creams don't work.one of the great advantages of being in a health system is you can just check labs in system already. If it's there in document I checked it. If not who cares.
 
I don't order LFT. 30 days is how I treat athlete's foot. Creams don't work.one of the great advantages of being in a health system is you can just check labs in system already. If it's there in document I checked it. If not who cares.
what if nail fungus? Check for 90 day course? Or no ?

From what ive read (last 5ish years) ask if known liver problems. If none Rx without checking.

I still check once. But thats because of JDs in this world and the standard of care in my area with PCPs (actually they still checking at about 30 days in).

If mildly high I do pulse dose. 1 tab a day for 7 days. Stop for 21. Repeat for 6 monts (42 tabs). Results are the same as a traditional 90 day course.

Practice management I should see them back at a month to check LFT/advise but thats lame and I dont like to keep people out of work for my pocket book.
 
what if nail fungus? Check for 90 day course? Or no ?

From what ive read (last 5ish years) ask if known liver problems. If none Rx without checking.

I still check once. But thats because of JDs in this world and the standard of care in my area with PCPs (actually they still checking at about 30 days in).

If mildly high I do pulse dose. 1 tab a day for 7 days. Stop for 21. Repeat for 6 monts (42 tabs). Results are the same as a traditional 90 day course.
Yeah 90 for nails 30 maybe 45 for athletes foot
 
What do you guys do for patients who chief complaint is: peripheral neuropathy?
 
Gabapentin. Level 4. There's some good threads you can search for where we have some good discussions about it

Good thread for anyone who wants to read..

I don’t feel comfortable prescribing gabapentin. None of my colleagues that I talk to in my state do.

Also RIP @Pronation
 

Good thread for anyone who wants to read..

I don’t feel comfortable prescribing gabapentin. None of my colleagues that I talk to in my state do.

Also RIP @Pronation
Really? Why?
I hand that out like candy.
 
If you look around online you can find a bunch of different terbinafine dosing variations - that said, pretty consistently a terbinafine pulse is 500mg a day for a week. I did 250mg/daily one week pulses and anecdotally they didn't work for me.


what if nail fungus? Check for 90 day course? Or no ?

From what ive read (last 5ish years) ask if known liver problems. If none Rx without checking.

I still check once. But thats because of JDs in this world and the standard of care in my area with PCPs (actually they still checking at about 30 days in).

If mildly high I do pulse dose. 1 tab a day for 7 days. Stop for 21. Repeat for 6 monts (42 tabs). Results are the same as a traditional 90 day course.

Practice management I should see them back at a month to check LFT/advise but thats lame and I dont like to keep people out of work for my pocket book.
 
I give them 30 days low dose gabapentin at night only and tell them if it helps to discuss getting more and increasing dose if desired with PCP.
 
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