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The 5% Question

Started by MaximusD
BU Medical Sciences
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MaximusD

MaximusD

Anatomically Incorrect
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Air Force
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Now I know the thread which discussed this was shut down, but I want a real answer. For the record, it was stated in a previous thread that MSU-COM students had a 70% "pass" gradeline while MSU-CHM students had a 75% "pass" gradeline. I would find this perplexing, because MSU-COM has a much higher ranking in family medicine than MSU-CHM. Specifically, USNews & World Report ranks MSU-COM 4th and MSU-CHM 14th.

Two factors need to be brought to discussion, IMHO.

1. Is there a 5% easier passing score at MSU-COM in combined CHM-COM classes?

2. If it is easier to pass at MSU-COM, what is making the ranking higher? Is it because MSU-COM puts out more PCPs than CHM does?

PLEASE guys, no flames. In fact, I would appreciate it if only people with actual knowledge replied.

(I swear if this legitimate thread blows up and I get banned, I will find where you live and beat you with bamboo)
 
drmax said:
Now I know the thread which discussed this was shut down, but I want a real answer. For the record, it was stated in a previous thread that MSU-COM students had a 70% "pass" gradeline while MSU-CHM students had a 75% "pass" gradeline. I would find this perplexing, because MSU-COM has a much higher ranking in family medicine than MSU-CHM. Specifically, USNews & World Report ranks MSU-COM 4th and MSU-CHM 14th.

Two factors need to be brought to discussion, IMHO.

1. Is there a 5% easier passing score at MSU-COM in combined CHM-COM classes?

2. If it is easier to pass at MSU-COM, what is making the ranking higher? Is it because MSU-COM puts out more PCPs than CHM does?

PLEASE guys, no flames. In fact, I would appreciate it if only people with actual knowledge replied.

(I swear if this legitimate thread blows up and I get banned, I will find where you live and beat you with bamboo)
Click to expand...

I hate to say it, but primary care rankings don't really mean much about quality. A big component of the rankings is the percentage of students going into primary care, so if lots more COM students go into primary care than CHM students, it'd result in a higher rating. So, that would have no bearing on the 5% thing.

Editing to add that I just checked out USnews, and CHM actually has a higher peer assessment score and residency director ranking than COM. However, 85% of CHM students go into primary care (according to the USNews standards), while only 50% of CHM's students do.

However, even if the 5% thing is true, I don't think it's as damning as it's being made out to be here. I think it's been commonly acknowledged that certain elements of allopathic basic sciences education are cut from osteopathic basic sciences education to make more room for OMM, etc. For example, I've frequently heard that osteopathic students cover less biochem (yes, I've heard this from osteopathic students). Allowing students to score 5% lower than allopathic students might just be a way to create more room for necessary elements of osteopathic education.
 
Not sure about the passing, however, I do know that probably a lot of the much higher ranking for COM has to do with the fact that there is a state wide campus system for clinical. There are 25 hospitals in their campus system for the clinical years and growing... All over the state including Detroit.. I know there are far less at CHM (5) The biggest being Grand Rapids.. I assume you mean the grade to pass is a 70% vs. a 75%. I wouldn't say this is really all that important of a statistic.. I mean some might say this makes COM inferior, but I would argue that it is really pointless... You might even say that since the same percent of people graduate it would be that the COM classes are harder haha.. .


Another thing off of the Primary care is that COM has like 5 times more affiliated specialty residencies than CHM too with a 99% first choice match, just FYI
 
drmax said:
(I swear if this legitimate thread blows up and I get banned, I will find where you live and beat you with bamboo)[/QUOTE]

LMAO!!!:laugh:
I have no idea how to answer your question, but I had to laugh at this comment. Hope you get your answer!😀
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exlawgrrl said:
I hate to say it, but primary care rankings don't really mean much about quality. A big component of the rankings is the percentage of students going into primary care, so if lots more COM students go into primary care than CHM students, it'd result in a higher rating. So, that would have no bearing on the 5% thing.
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And this is IF said disparity in performance actually exists... We still need a qualified answer to that question.

But that (the percentage of those going into PC residencies..) was my thought process... And I don't really wish to put a whole lot of stock into USNews rankings anyway...
 
WALKE219 said:
Not sure about the passing, however, I do know that probably a lot of the much higher ranking for COM has to do with the fact that there is a state wide campus system for clinical. There are 25 hospitals in their campus system for the clinical years and growing... All over the state including Detroit.. I know there are far less at CHM (5) The biggest being Grand Rapids.. I assume you mean the grade to pass is a 70% vs. a 75%. I wouldn't say this is really all that important of a statistic.. I mean some might say this makes COM inferior, but I would argue that it is really pointless... You might even say that since the same percent of people graduate it would be that the COM classes are harder haha.. .


Another thing off of the Primary care is that COM has like 5 times more affiliated specialty residencies than CHM too with a 99% first choice match, just FYI
Click to expand...

I remember hearing something to that effect with CHM having better affiliated hospitals and more residencies... What's funny is that I applied to MSU-CHM because they didn't require me to jump through all of the hoops that MSU-COM did :laugh: Just a fee, no secondary required. Where's my Staples "Easy Button"?
 
exlawgrrl said:
I think it's been commonly acknowledged that certain elements of allopathic basic sciences education are cut from osteopathic basic sciences education to make more room for OMM, etc. For example, I've frequently heard that osteopathic students cover less biochem (yes, I've heard this from osteopathic students). Allowing students to score 5% lower than allopathic students might just be a way to create more room for necessary elements of osteopathic education.
Click to expand...


News to me! I thought everything was covered...and then some!😕
Anyone know how to find out all the differences?
 
exlawgrrl said:
I think it's been commonly acknowledged that certain elements of allopathic basic sciences education are cut from osteopathic basic sciences education to make more room for OMM, etc. For example, I've frequently heard that osteopathic students cover less biochem (yes, I've heard this from osteopathic students).
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People occasionally bring this up, so it has always intrigued me in regards to the accuracy of it. Would you or any other allopathic students mind posting their Biochem curriculum, so that we can compare? I truly am curious. I am in no way starting an argument, let alone debate. I'd just rather see cold hard curriculums😛 , rather than mention it in passing, as has often been the case in the past.
 
It'sElectric said:
People occasionally bring this up, so it has always intrigued me in regards to the accuracy of it. Would you or any other allopathic students mind posting their Biochem curriculum, so that we can compare? I truly am curious. I am in no way starting an argument, let alone debate. I'd just rather see cold hard curriculums😛 , rather than mention it in passing, as has often been the case in the past.
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You know, I've heard it from osteopathic students here, so it's not allopathic dig at you all. 🙂 At my school, we had 132 contact hours for biochem. We met two hours a day every day for a semester. For us, that was actually the most hours for any course in the first year -- anatomy is a close second with 128 contact hours.
 
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drmax said:
Now I know the thread which discussed this was shut down, but I want a real answer. For the record, it was stated in a previous thread that MSU-COM students had a 70% "pass" gradeline while MSU-CHM students had a 75% "pass" gradeline. I would find this perplexing, because MSU-COM has a much higher ranking in family medicine than MSU-CHM. Specifically, USNews & World Report ranks MSU-COM 4th and MSU-CHM 14th.

Two factors need to be brought to discussion, IMHO.

1. Is there a 5% easier passing score at MSU-COM in combined CHM-COM classes?

2. If it is easier to pass at MSU-COM, what is making the ranking higher? Is it because MSU-COM puts out more PCPs than CHM does?

PLEASE guys, no flames. In fact, I would appreciate it if only people with actual knowledge replied.

(I swear if this legitimate thread blows up and I get banned, I will find where you live and beat you with bamboo)
Click to expand...

1. I think it is very telling that no MSU students have chimed in on this.

2. 70% and 75% are both C's, so even if it is true, I hope that med students are doing better than this. I have to have a 3.0 or higher with only two C's or less to pass my master's program. There must be some equivalent requirement in med school, Osteopathic or allopathic.

3. Some MD schools have a pass / fail system (such as the first year at Wash U). Apparently, if you are good enough to pass med school, whether it is a C or higher, you are pretty darned competent.
 
drmax said:
I would like to compare curricula as well...

Is DO truly MD curriculum + OMM + abstract philosophy differences? Or are there different emphases in the core curriculum?
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Obviously there will be benign variations among curricula of schools (including within osteopathic and allopathic medicine), but some people assert that DOs remove certain aspects from their curriculum in order to accomodate OMM. If it's true, no big deal. If it's not, then I would like to simply set the record straight.

Either way, I'm willing to bet that the differences are insignificant, since the overwhelming majority of individual's training takes place during the 3rd and 4th years.
 
exlawgrrl said:
Check out Haemulon's posts below. He apparently did some comparison between one MD and one DO program. I'm guessing there's variation with each school, but I think it's reasonable that some things are going to be cut back a little bit for OMM time. I personally could use less biochem than I had to learn.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=289803&page=2&highlight=biochem
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Regarding the "cutting back," I think the reason this debate continues is not because anybody is denying or not confirming it. I think it might be impossible to prove. I was trying to compile a comparison between curricula at several schools, both DO and MD, and I noticed one glaring trend: You cannot compare curricula between ANY two medical schools. They all have different "contact hours," course titles, course sequence, etc. You could find that an MD school with PBL "cuts back" on, say anatomy to make up for all the time they spend on PBL, but really they are probably covering more than enough, and make up for it elsewhere in the curriculum.
 
jkhamlin said:
Regarding the "cutting back," I think the reason this debate continues is not because anybody is denying or not confirming it. I think it might be impossible to prove. I was trying to compile a comparison between curricula at several schools, both DO and MD, and I noticed one glaring trend: You cannot compare curricula between ANY two medical schools. They all have different "contact hours," course titles, course sequence, etc. You could find that an MD school with PBL "cuts back" on, say anatomy to make up for all the time they spend on PBL, but really they are probably covering more than enough, and make up for it elsewhere in the curriculum.
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I was trying to do the same thing and ran into a very similar problem. I even looked at your school's website, exlawgirl, and it was quite evident that multiple classes are contained within a single class title.
 
My husband matriculated at MSU-CHM in the 90's. At that time he said that the passing percentage for each class varied but was often 75%. He said the DO students' passing percentage was, on average, 5-8% lower. He also said the DO students were much more laid back and happy and spent more time enjoying themselves. He did not finish due to personal reasons and now we are both applying only to DO schools. (note: I'm not saying there is anything wrong with MD schools)
 
drmax said:
Now I know the thread which discussed this was shut down, but I want a real answer. For the record, it was stated in a previous thread that MSU-COM students had a 70% "pass" gradeline while MSU-CHM students had a 75% "pass" gradeline. I would find this perplexing, because MSU-COM has a much higher ranking in family medicine than MSU-CHM. Specifically, USNews & World Report ranks MSU-COM 4th and MSU-CHM 14th.

Two factors need to be brought to discussion, IMHO.

1. Is there a 5% easier passing score at MSU-COM in combined CHM-COM classes?

2. If it is easier to pass at MSU-COM, what is making the ranking higher? Is it because MSU-COM puts out more PCPs than CHM does?

PLEASE guys, no flames. In fact, I would appreciate it if only people with actual knowledge replied.

(I swear if this legitimate thread blows up and I get banned, I will find where you live and beat you with bamboo)
Click to expand...





i think its a AOA vs LCME policy thing rather than the admin setting different standards between md and do students. im pretty sure all DO schools have a passing grade = 70. maybe its possible that they have a method of converting grades to the different scale. for example at pcom the passing grade for some classes is determined by class performance than converted to the scale where P=70.
 
WALKE219 said:
Not sure about the passing, however, I do know that probably a lot of the much higher ranking for COM has to do with the fact that there is a state wide campus system for clinical. There are 25 hospitals in their campus system for the clinical years and growing... All over the state including Detroit.. I know there are far less at CHM (5) The biggest being Grand Rapids.. I assume you mean the grade to pass is a 70% vs. a 75%. I wouldn't say this is really all that important of a statistic.. I mean some might say this makes COM inferior, but I would argue that it is really pointless... You might even say that since the same percent of people graduate it would be that the COM classes are harder haha.. .


Another thing off of the Primary care is that COM has like 5 times more affiliated specialty residencies than CHM too with a 99% first choice match, just FYI
Click to expand...

Why would just having more hospitals make a COM better clinical education? That seems like a ridiculous generalization. The quality of the hospitals & the educational experience students get there is what is important.
 
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exlawgrrl said:
Here's the link to MSUCOM's academic web page. They note which courses are taken with CHM. For the first year, it seems like the only real difference in courses is for clinical medicine and OMM.

http://www.com.msu.edu/aa/preclerkship/

Here's CHM's first year schedule, showing the overlap with COM.

http://humanmedicine.msu.edu/medical_education/block1_diagram.jpg

It doesn't really support my argument, but oh well.
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FYI, having just interviewed at CHM this week, they told us that the website's posting hasn't been updated. In comparison to what they handed out to us, the posting you linked here isn't THAT much different. In semester 2 though, they added Intro to Biostatistics/Epidemiology for 1 credit (CHM only course).
 
jkhamlin said:
1. I think it is very telling that no MSU students have chimed in on this.
Click to expand...

It may only be telling in that it indicates not many of them spend their time on SDN. If you search for other postings (even in allo), you really don't get much response. Every school's got different showings here. There are a lot of DMU students on these forums, and not a lot of MSU students. It doesn't tell you much at all, really. It isn't like med students spend their days lurking on SDN forums, waiting to chime in about their school.
 
I am an MSU student

and ortho doc, I never said that either school was a better education, I was just stating a fact that there are a lot more hospitals, and a lot more larger hospitals. I don't think it is ridiculous at all to note that you have many more options at one school than another. I would agree that the quality is more important than the quantity, however, the largest area that there is an option is in Grand Rapids at CHM, whereas there are 2 options in grand rapids, and 10 in the Detroit area at COM. I think the quality of experience does depend on the amount of experiences you can get at any given "base" hospital. I don't think many would argue that you would get a much more broad experience at a large, urban hospital than smaller hospitals in smaller cities. Of course this can be argued, but it doesn't really matter. Another thing to note is that there are many more affiliated residencies at COM then CHM, with a MUCH higher first choice match rate. I am not trying to say COM is any better than CHM at all, I am simply giving possible theories to why COM is ranked higher than CHM. We also got into the discussion of specialty residencies, hence the argument about COM having many more than CHM. Also of note is the fact that although ranked much higher than CHM in primary care, CHM sends roughly 85% into primary care, while COM sends 50%. I would take USNews with a grain of salt though, many things go into that ranking that don't really matter. At the end of it all, where you end up in residency depends on the grades/scores that you get, and who you are - not where you went to school. At the end of it all, we will all be "Dr." I think rankings cause a lot of senseless arguments. Honestly, no patient is going to care where you went to medical school, whether you're a DO or an MD or what you scored on your boards. They are going to care whether or not you are competent in your field, and that all depends on you, not the school.
 
EEL08 said:
My husband matriculated at MSU-CHM in the 90's. At that time he said that the passing percentage for each class varied but was often 75%. He said the DO students' passing percentage was, on average, 5-8% lower. He also said the DO students were much more laid back and happy and spent more time enjoying themselves. He did not finish due to personal reasons and now we are both applying only to DO schools. (note: I'm not saying there is anything wrong with MD schools)
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And lest you're tempted to respond that things have changed since the 90s, I posted the question in the allo med student forum. Here is the response of a current MSU DO student.

I am a DO student at MSU, so hopefully I can help clarify things here.
Yes, we take all our science classes in the first year with the MD students. In 2nd year we go our separate ways. The MDs have a PBL format 2nd year, whereas the DOs take lecture-based systems courses in 2nd year.
As for the passing grade: In *all* of the classes, the passing grade is *at least* 70%, regardless of whether you're DO or MD. Getting less than 70% in either school definitely means you fail.
In some classes, the passing mark was set higher than that for everyone, both DO and MD (for example, Gross Anatomy required a 75%; Pharmacology and Neuroscience required a 72%). In other classes, the passing score for DOs remained at 70%, but an MD student who received a grade between 70 and 75% received a "conditional Pass" grade that required some kind of remediation. So, basically, an MD student who receives a 70% in a class can still pass the class, but has one more hoop to jump through than a DO student who gets a 70% would and gets a "Conditional Pass" notation on their transcripts.

So, in some classes, what Humble said is correct, isn't it? Personally, I think you should apologize to Humble for calling him a troll. After all, he was only passing along accurate information.

By the way, smooth move in having the other thread shut down so you wouldn't have to respond to my post. You need to grow a pair.
 
WALKE219 said:
I am an MSU student
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So you spend your days waiting to chime in on SDN forums about MSU??! 😉 Somehow I doubt that...
(Just kidding, in case you couldn't tell...)

So okay - I think that it is STRANGE that COM has affiliations in larger urban areas and CHM doesn't. Usually it's the other way around (with MD/DO schools in the same area). Why doesn't CHM have larger hospitals affiliated?

CORRECTION: CHM is the one with a 50% rate going into primary care, not COM. COM is higher than that. Which makes sense anyway. But about the 1st choice thing, that would be nice to find out.

And DrMax, not to be rude, but why do your original questions really matter anyway?? I don't think the 70 or 75% or better to pass a class can be used to compare schools. Nor do the US News Rankings have relevance to how a school sets up their classes pass/fail system.
 
Also, to those who are saying that DO schools spend less time on other subjects to "fit" in OMM... I think that like said above, it is impossible to compare even two MD schools or two DO schools course load or quality. However, in my experience at MSU, there are actually more credits taken at COM than CHM, suggesting at least in credit load that this is not true. There are quite a few shared classes, so at least at this particular school, whether you go MD or DO you don't really have to worry about getting cheated in any particular subject. Just a thought.
 
No I don't, In fact there are very few posts anywhere here about MSU, but hey, it's Saturday!


I wouldn't know the clinical differences from hospital to hospital, but wouldn't it stand with reason to suggest that at a large, regional urban hospital you would encounter a much wider variety of cases than at a smaller, city type hospital?
Whether or not you're going to a osteo or allo school, this is always something to consider.


I see this going in a direction of a fight between COM and CHM, and that isn't necessary. Someone asked for possible reasons why there was such a difference in the "rankings". I simply was providing a possible answer. The better answer would have probably been "usnews is garbage".

and ortho - I totally agree, I think that to suggest that there is any relevance in the 70 - 75% pass is absurd. There are so many possible twists on reasons for this that it isn't even worth it to go into them, but I would say the least important is on the quality of education because of a 5% swing in pass. In fact, I think the admissions statistics for MSUCOM and MSUCHM are quite similar.

P.S - I wasn't really directing the fact that I am an MSU student to you, I was just showing people that it isn't "telling" at all that MSU students are not posting.







I have no idea why CHM only has those hospitals affiliated with them, you're right though, the norm is usually the opposite. However, that is the case, and this information can be found on the schools respective websites. Contracts are hard to come by for clinical, and perhaps, COM swallowed up a lot of hospitals and they are only willing to give out one contract. Ingham and Sparrow in Lansing - both COM and CHM can go there though. If you're interested in the match stats for CHM then I am sure it is on their website somewhere, but if you just interviewed there I'm sure you can call and get that type of information.
 
koennen said:
And lest you're tempted to respond that things have changed since the 90s, I posted the question in the allo med student forum. Here is the response of a current MSU DO student.

I am a DO student at MSU, so hopefully I can help clarify things here.
Yes, we take all our science classes in the first year with the MD students. In 2nd year we go our separate ways. The MDs have a PBL format 2nd year, whereas the DOs take lecture-based systems courses in 2nd year.
As for the passing grade: In *all* of the classes, the passing grade is *at least* 70%, regardless of whether you're DO or MD. Getting less than 70% in either school definitely means you fail.
In some classes, the passing mark was set higher than that for everyone, both DO and MD (for example, Gross Anatomy required a 75%; Pharmacology and Neuroscience required a 72%). In other classes, the passing score for DOs remained at 70%, but an MD student who received a grade between 70 and 75% received a "conditional Pass" grade that required some kind of remediation. So, basically, an MD student who receives a 70% in a class can still pass the class, but has one more hoop to jump through than a DO student who gets a 70% would and gets a "Conditional Pass" notation on their transcripts.

So, in some classes, what Humble said is correct, isn't it? Personally, I think you should apologize to Humble for calling him a troll. After all, he was only passing along accurate information.

By the way, smooth move in having the other thread shut down so you wouldn't have to respond to my post. You need to grow a pair.
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The information you have is a little out of date now... Actually the COM has moved its anatomy course to the SUMMER before the traditional semester 1. It is the FULL anatomy course, but given in 8 weeks instead of the traditional first semester. It is still instructed as before by the DO/MD team, so the class really isn't any different. It is just condensed time wise, and only COM students take it then where as CHM takes it in the Fall as usual. The reasoning behind this is that COM and CHM are both becoming large schools. COM is now admitting classes of 210 students, and for the sake of space and resources, they split them up. So there are a few differences in the first year now too, although quite a few classes are still shared. One really great thing that has come of this is that COM and CHM have the lowest student to cadaver ratios now.
 
koennen said:
So, in some classes, what Humble said is correct, isn't it? Personally, I think you should apologize to Humble for calling him a troll. After all, he was only passing along accurate information.
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Why? His information was misleading (maybe intentionally) even though it had a bit of truth to it. He was still looking for a fight, and he was still giving an inaccurate interpretation of events at MSU to get digs in at DOs.
 
WALKE219 said:
I wouldn't know the clinical differences from hospital to hospital, but wouldn't it stand with reason to suggest that at a large, regional urban hospital you would encounter a much wider variety of cases than at a smaller, city type hospital?
Whether or not you're going to a osteo or allo school, this is always something to consider.
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Absolutely agree! In fact, this is my biggest worry about MSU-CHM. That's why I was hoping to find out more. Seems like Flint & Grand Rapids are the 2 largest clinical locations, and I'm having a hard time telling what kind of experience they'll provide.

WALKE219 said:
The reasoning behind this is that COM and CHM are both becoming large schools. COM is now admitting classes of 210 students, and for the sake of space and resources, they split them up. So there are a few differences in the first year now too, although quite a few classes are still shared. One really great thing that has come of this is that COM and CHM have the lowest student to cadaver ratios now.
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CHM will be increasing it's class by 50, so it's going to be about 156 this fall, they said. Isn't anatomy done by prosection, though?
 
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WALKE219 said:
and ortho - I totally agree, I think that to suggest that there is any relevance in the 70 - 75% pass is absurd. There are so many possible twists on reasons for this that it isn't even worth it to go into them, but I would say the least important is on the quality of education because of a 5% swing in pass. In fact, I think the admissions statistics for MSUCOM and MSUCHM are quite similar.
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Yes, it has no relevance and is cleary absurd. What probably happened is some MSU administrators were sitting around one day at lunch and, for no reason, one of them said, "Hey, let's make the passing grade for DO students 5% less than for MD students. Wouldn't that be a hoot?" And so it became.

Come on! I would be a little embarassed too if the guy sitting next to me had a get a higher score to pass the same test, but you can't just dismiss it by saying its irrelevant and absurd.

And what are some of the "many possible twists on reasons for this?" Seriously, I would like to know.
 
Orthodoc40 said:
Absolutely agree! In fact, this is my biggest worry about MSU-CHM. That's why I was hoping to find out more. Seems like Flint & Grand Rapids are the 2 largest clinical locations, and I'm having a hard time telling what kind of experience they'll provide.
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Yeah, that was one thing I worried about CHM, and ultimately made me decide against it for personal reasons. Grand Rapids is a large city, however, not nearly as large as Detroit. Flint is not nearly as large. It is something to really consider because the fact is there are a lot more cases to go around in large hospitals. I would like to see CHM get some contracts down by Detroit, for the good of their program. I haven't noticed a lot of expanding there in the last 5 years with respect to that. Also, something to note is they are moving the large majority of their campus to Grand Rapids. There will still be a much smaller class in the East Lansing Campus (about 50 students), however, the schools much larger (about 200 students) campus will be in Grand Rapids, suggesting that they are going to concentrate their programs over there, which is a little scary for people considering what you are. Gd. Rapids is really the ONLY big city on that side of the state. I would suggest really researching the hospitals that they offer for clinical too when making a decision.

Orthodoc40 said:
CHM will be increasing it's class by 50, so it's going to be about 156 this fall, they said. Isn't anatomy done by prosection, though?
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Like I said above, I think in 08 (09?) they are having the majority of the class move to Gd. Rapids so this should be possible. I know that COM has 210 this upcoming year, so you can imagine things were getting cramped.
 
koennen said:
Yes, it has no relevance and is cleary absurd. What probably happened is some MSU administrators were sitting around one day at lunch and, for no reason, one of them said, "Hey, let's make the passing grade for DO students 5% less than for MD students. Wouldn't that be a hoot?" And so it became.

Come on! I would be a little embarassed too if the guy sitting next to me had a get a higher score to pass the same test, but you can't just dismiss it by saying its irrelevant and absurd.

And what are some of the "many possible twists on reasons for this?" Seriously, I would like to know.
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I'm not really sure what you're getting at, because in every shared class at MSU the pass grade is the same. I'm not sure where this other information is coming from. So before we make comments, let us verify the validity of sources. If it came from USnews, I would assume it has to do with the classes that are not shared.

If you want to get into it, and pretend this is true, just as you could say that CHM has higher standards for it's students, couldn't you just as easily say that COM classes are simply more difficult and require a lower grade? This is irrelevant and absurd because in shared courses , where you are comparing apples to apples, this is simply not the case. When you move into comparing COM courses to CHM courses that are not shared, then you move in to two totally different schools and comparing pass grades means nothing because there is no way to really compare.

It's like saying the pass rate of the CHM students in OMM lab is 0% and making that some how relevant and important in the rankings.


Would you really be embarrassed if someone next to you had to get 5% higher to get a pass too? Personally, I would probably be thinking "sucker" because at the end of the day when we both pass and are both Dr's it won't matter, and he/she would have to stress out more!! (kidding of course)


and the knockout blow to all of this :

I don't care if a school has a 90% requirement to pass, and another school has a 50% requirement to pass. At the end of the day every student has to pass their boards in order to become a Dr. and the fact of the matter is you could get 100% on every exam you ever take in medical school and if you don't pass your boards, it means nothing. On the flip side you could get a 50% on every exam, pass your boards and still be a dr.

So this needs to be put to rest, I think you are huddling very close to just trying to take a shot at a DO school....
 
WALKE219 said:
I'm not really sure what you're getting at, because in every shared class at MSU the pass grade is the same. I'm not sure where this other information is coming from. So before we make comments, let us verify the validity of sources. If it came from USnews, I would assume it has to do with the classes that are not shared.
Click to expand...

If you want to get into it, and pretend this is true, just as you could say that CHM has higher standards for it's students, couldn't you just as easily say that COM classes are simply more difficult and require a lower grade? This is irrelevant and absurd because in shared courses , where you are comparing apples to apples, this is simply not the case. When you move into comparing COM courses to CHM courses that are not shared, then you move in to two totally different schools and comparing pass grades means nothing because there is no way to really compare.

It's like saying the pass rate of the CHM students in OMM lab is 0% and making that some how relevant and important in the rankings.


Would you really be embarrassed if someone next to you had to get 5% higher to get a pass too? Personally, I would probably be thinking "sucker" because at the end of the day when we both pass and are both Dr's it won't matter, and he/she would have to stress out more!! (kidding of course)


and the knockout blow to all of this :

I don't care if a school has a 90% requirement to pass, and another school has a 50% requirement to pass. At the end of the day every student has to pass their boards in order to become a Dr. and the fact of the matter is you could get 100% on every exam you ever take in medical school and if you don't pass your boards, it means nothing. On the flip side you could get a 50% on every exam, pass your boards and still be a dr.

So this needs to be put to rest, I think you are huddling very close to just trying to take a shot at a DO school....[/QUOTE]
 
WALKE219 said:
Yeah, that was one thing I worried about CHM, and ultimately made me decide against it for personal reasons. Grand Rapids is a large city, however, not nearly as large as Detroit. Flint is not nearly as large. It is something to really consider because the fact is there are a lot more cases to go around in large hospitals. I would like to see CHM get some contracts down by Detroit, for the good of their program. I haven't noticed a lot of expanding there in the last 5 years with respect to that. Also, something to note is they are moving the large majority of their campus to Grand Rapids. There will still be a much smaller class in the East Lansing Campus (about 50 students), however, the schools much larger (about 200 students) campus will be in Grand Rapids, suggesting that they are going to concentrate their programs over there, which is a little scary for people considering what you are. Gd. Rapids is really the ONLY big city on that side of the state. I would suggest really researching the hospitals that they offer for clinical too when making a decision.

Like I said above, I think in 08 (09?) they are having the majority of the class move to Gd. Rapids so this should be possible. I know that COM has 210 this upcoming year, so you can imagine things were getting cramped.
Click to expand...

Hmm. Our tourguide gave us a little bit different info, and definitely left out the moving to GR part. :scared: On the optimistic side, sometimes smaller hospitals offer the opportunity for med students to do more, though. It isn't always a death sentence. But I'd still be looking forward to electives elsewhere.
 
WALKE219 said:
I'm not really sure what you're getting at, because in every shared class at MSU the pass grade is the same. I'm not sure where this other information is coming from. So before we make comments, let us verify the validity of sources. If it came from USnews, I would assume it has to do with the classes that are not shared.
Click to expand...

The source of this information is one of your fellow classmates. Do you guys go to the same school?

WALKE219 said:
If you want to get into it, and pretend this is true, just as you could say that CHM has higher standards for it's students, couldn't you just as easily say that COM classes are simply more difficult and require a lower grade?
Click to expand...

Yes, and one could just as easily say that COM's classes are more rigorous and intellectually demanding than those required of students at Harvard and Johns Hopkins. One could also just as easily say that the medical education provided by COM surpasses that provided by most of what are commonly considered to be the top medical schools in the country. What can be easily said is limited only by one's creative imagination. Doesn't make any of it true.



WALKE219 said:
This is irrelevant and absurd because in shared courses , where you are comparing apples to apples, this is simply not the case.
Click to expand...

Again, you and your classmate seem to disagre.


WALKE219 said:
and the knockout blow to all of this :

I don't care if a school has a 90% requirement to pass, and another school has a 50% requirement to pass. At the end of the day every student has to pass their boards in order to become a Dr. and the fact of the matter is you could get 100% on every exam you ever take in medical school and if you don't pass your boards, it means nothing. On the flip side you could get a 50%on every exam, pass your boards and still be a dr.
Click to expand...

Not clear to me why this is a "knockout blow" re the subject of differing passing standards. But, I agree 100%. Not taking a shot at DOs or DO schools. I've applied to both MD and DO schools.
 
jkhamlin said:
Regarding the "cutting back," I think the reason this debate continues is not because anybody is denying or not confirming it. I think it might be impossible to prove. I was trying to compile a comparison between curricula at several schools, both DO and MD, and I noticed one glaring trend: You cannot compare curricula between ANY two medical schools. They all have different "contact hours," course titles, course sequence, etc. You could find that an MD school with PBL "cuts back" on, say anatomy to make up for all the time they spend on PBL, but really they are probably covering more than enough, and make up for it elsewhere in the curriculum.
Click to expand...
I actually agree with JK on the fact that one cannot compare entire curricula at different schools. Someone needs to call hell, and see if it's indeed frozen over.

The MD school is moving to Grand Rapids which has just recently been confirmed. The DO school is staying in E. Lansing.

Recall also, that one has to pass a medical school curriculum AND pass the boards (not one without the other). If a medical school only required 50%'s on their bookwork and began showing a lack of grasping improtant concepts, it would bring in issues of accredidation. And we've seen schools lose that before...

The 5% difference that the thread title refers to has, I guess been confirmed. The reason why I had brought this up was because, as stated, one cannot compare curricula, but one can compare standards in identical classes. At MSU, DO and MD students have classes together in their first year, and, as I was told on my interview, the DO students need a 70% to pass and MD students need a 75% to pass, in the same identical class (seems to control for the other confounding variables that make most comparisons meaningless). I make no value judgement, but demand that folks accept a fact for a fact (make you own conclusions on the meaning of it).

Humbly awaiting troll accusations from JK in 5...4...3...2...
 
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well i am not sure what this will add to the discussion on standards (and biochem), but while on tour at msucom i heard the biochem average for the DO 1st years on a test or two was in the upper 80's/lower 90's. i think this is a class the MD/DOs take together. maybe a student who knows more can say more on if this is an accurate statement. the point is, who cares if the pass cut-off is 5% lower if the average is super high? the students are doing a good job!
 
It'sElectric said:
You gotta love the amount of verbal fellatio that occurs on this board.
Click to expand...

Whatev- there is always so much bickering and attacking on these threads that I enjoy a good laugh every now and then. Kudos to those that contribute happiness to the world and not just discord all the time 😛 (but my tongue-sticking-out-face to you isn't quite so happy looking) (see, you made me contribute more negative--*and back the the happy place now*)
 
Yes_I_DO said:
Whatev- there is always so much bickering and attacking on these threads that I enjoy a good laugh every now and then. Kudos to those that contribute happiness to the world and not just discord all the time 😛 (but my tongue-sticking-out-face to you isn't quite so happy looking) (see, you made me contribute more negative--*and back the the happy place now*)
Click to expand...

Hehe...I was just playing anyways. Whenever I get the opportunity to throw the phrase "verbal fellatio" into a conversation, I take it. How can you not laugh at that phrase?
 
It'sElectric said:
Hehe...I was just playing anyways. Whenever I get the opportunity to throw the phrase "verbal fellatio" into a conversation, I take it. How can you not laugh at that phrase?
Click to expand...

(reluctantly) ok...if it wasnt malicious, I'll grant you a laugh too 😀
 
This should make DO naysayers change their tune.

MDs and DOs only differ by 5%.

Not bad.
 
drmax said:
And this is IF said disparity in performance actually exists... We still need a qualified answer to that question.

But that (the percentage of those going into PC residencies..) was my thought process... And I don't really wish to put a whole lot of stock into USNews rankings anyway...
Click to expand...

Does any of this even matter to anyone except MSU students? I would think not.

I would be happy the pass gradeline wasnt 80%, dont ask questions and do well on the tests. But, maybe my priorities are skewed.
 
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