The AOA

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wjs010

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I've seen a lot of posts about the hypocrisy of the AOA and how they are corrupt for basically making fellowship docs hand over cash for maintaining board cert. to me, yes, that sounds bad, but is it different from being MD board certified? I mean, don't they have to hand over money to maintain their cert? I'm just curious. Thanks


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You pay the AOA $750 or so a year. Its a requirement to remain board certified. For MDs or DOs who completed an allopathic residency you pay to take the recert, but not to the AMA for example. For both, there are dues to your professional society.
 
You pay the AOA $750 or so a year. Its a requirement to remain board certified. For MDs or DOs who completed an allopathic residency you pay to take the recert, but not to the AMA for example. For both, there are dues to your professional society.
So it's not for recert... It's just a requirement? Is there a reason for this?


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So since your program is dual accredited, will you still pay the AOA fees down the road?
It depends. As a dually accredited resident I can choose in the future which certification I want to with hold from renewing. For graduation from residency have to take both board exams, the ABFM and the ABOFM. If you are a DO and you want to be a program director for an AOA program in the future, you need to keep your AOA certification up to date.
 
It depends. As a dually accredited resident I can choose in the future which certification I want to with hold from renewing. For graduation from residency have to take both board exams, the ABFM and the ABOFM. If you are a DO and you want to be a program director for an AOA program in the future, you need to keep your AOA certification up to date.
Interesting. Thanks for answering.
 
You pay the AOA $750 or so a year. Its a requirement to remain board certified. For MDs or DOs who completed an allopathic residency you pay to take the recert, but not to the AMA for example. For both, there are dues to your professional society.

Professional society membership in and of itself is not completely necessary for board certification, right? For instance you could maintain the ABIM boards but not necessarily maintain membership in the ACP.
 
Professional society membership in and of itself is not completely necessary for board certification, right? For instance you could maintain the ABIM boards but not necessarily maintain membership in the ACP.

For ABMS and its member organizations (like ABIM, ABP, ABS, ABA, etc), initial board certification involves completion of residency (and/or fellowship) plus passing their test (some are written only, some are written + orals).

To maintain certification status, you have to enroll in their respective MOC program and do activities in the MOC to keep your certification active. (ie enroll in ABIM's MOC to maintain your IM certification, enroll in ABP's MOC to maintain your peds certification, etc)

You do not have to be a member of the ACP, or AAP in order to maintain board certification. Eligibility for college fellowship (not fellowship after residency, but an honor to be inducted as a fellow into a society/college) is not automatic after being board certified. There are certain criterias that must be met. If you qualify, apply, and are inducted into their fellowships, you may use FACP for ACP (for FAAP for AAP, or FACS for ACS), then you must remain a member in good standing in those organizations in order to continue to use those designations. *


In the AOA World, the AOA requires membership in the AOA as a condition for maintaining certification. So if you are AOA board certified, and you choose not to pay your dues, or you don't have enough AOA 1A CME credits (the AOA requires 150 hrs q3 years), then as soon as you are no longer a member of the AOA, you are no longer board certified.

The AOA is also doing something similar to the MOC programs that the ABMS are doing, except the AOA is calling it "OCC" (osteopathic continuous certification). Same hoops to jump through, still have to pay $$$, etc.
 
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That's what I thought. Thanks for the clarification.
 
Professional society membership in and of itself is not completely necessary for board certification, right? For instance you could maintain the ABIM boards but not necessarily maintain membership in the ACP.

The ABIM requires the certification examination + MOC to maintain board certification in internal medicine. You aren't required to pay a yearly tribute to any organization in order to maintain your certification on the 'allopathic' side of the fence. This makes sense, because your knowledge base as an internist has very little to do with your ability to pay a yearly fee.

The AOA forces their members who complete their residencies to pay yearly dues to maintain their board certification status. The main reasons are greed (free money!) but also political. By coercing doctors to maintain their membership in the AOA, they are artificially inflating their membership numbers, while claiming that they are the representative voice of osteopathic medicine. I am surprised that this hasn't been looked at from a legality standpoint yet, since board certification is so critical nowadays for insurance credentialing and obtaining hospital privileges.
 
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Original comment not relevent
 
Last edited:
Original comment not relevent
How is this not relevant? Osteopathic specialty boards currently do and will continue to provide board certification with one of their requirements being AOA membership.
 
How is this not relevant? Osteopathic specialty boards currently do and will continue to provide board certification with one of their requirements being AOA membership.
Sorry, I was saying my original comment was not relevant. I called out a poster who "blog pimped" his buzzfeed post on three threads on this board. He deleted it so I edited mine.
 
Let me clarify the answer very simply for ACGME boards: YOU DO NOT need to maintain membership in an organization to maintain board status for ABMS boards. It is simply not required.

I am not certain about the AOA's policy, but not ABMS board groups require membership to maintain.
 
How is the new set-up going to affect this? Any ideas?
 
How is the new set-up going to affect this? Any ideas?

Good question. Remember that although the GME groups will essentially merge, the residency programs will continue to exist. My guess is that if they truly do require membership to maintain osteopathic board certification (as stated above) that they will continue to require it.

I would find it funny, if under the new arrangement, if MD's were required to maintain $750/yr membership to maintain osteopathic certification for an osteopathic residency that they completed!
 
I'm confused.

Won't osteopathic board certifications cease to exist at some point in the near future? I don't understand why someone would chose to pay $750/yr for the rest of their career when they could just do the ABMS board certification without the required cost.
 
I'm confused.

Won't osteopathic board certifications cease to exist at some point in the near future? I don't understand why someone would chose to pay $750/yr for the rest of their career when they could just do the ABMS board certification without the required cost.

If it is anything like how the "original" plan for the merger was arranged, the residencies (and fellowships) under the AOA's purview would remain under AOA purview. Likely allowing them to continue doing this. Basically 'old' ACGME programs have one master, the ACGME. It is ACGME people who come to examine your program and to whom you appeal for your program related issues. The 'old' AOA programs will have two masters. It will be the AOA who come and examine your program and it is the AOA who you appeal to for all your program related issues BUT the AOA must use the ACGME's rules for evalation as they have the ACGME people as their bosses.

Its basically putting a roof of ACGME over the AOA, rather than truly taking over the AOA programs in the micro-management level. But this is all based on the old plan, idk if that has changed in the new deal.
 
If it is anything like how the "original" plan for the merger was arranged, the residencies (and fellowships) under the AOA's purview would remain under AOA purview. Likely allowing them to continue doing this. Basically 'old' ACGME programs have one master, the ACGME. It is ACGME people who come to examine your program and to whom you appeal for your program related issues. The 'old' AOA programs will have two masters. It will be the AOA who come and examine your program and it is the AOA who you appeal to for all your program related issues BUT the AOA must use the ACGME's rules for evalation as they have the ACGME people as their bosses.

Its basically putting a roof of ACGME over the AOA, rather than truly taking over the AOA programs in the micro-management level. But this is all based on the old plan, idk if that has changed in the new deal.

Not how it's gonna work. There are going to be two committees created within the ACGME board to assess OMM and other osteopathic principles in residencies that continue to want to maintain an osteopathic-focused program.

Programs will have from July 1, 2015 until June 30, 2020 to apply for and receive ACGME accreditation. After June 30, 2020, those programs that do not receive ACGME accreditation will cease to exist. The AOA will not accredit any residency programs or examine any programs after 2020. Everyone will be evaluated by the ACGME. The only say the AOA will have will come from the DO's they nominate to the ACGME board and the two osteopathic committees . Osteopathic-focused programs will only answer to the ACGME.

DO in-service exams will cease to exist at the end of this transition. All residents will take the ACGME exams. It is yet to be determined how OMM/osteopathic principles will be tested in osteopathic-focused programs.

As far as board certification, all graduates (MDs included) from Osteopathic-focused programs will be eligible to take the AOA AND/OR the ABMS boards. DOs in traditionally allopathic residencies will be eligible to take both as well, but MDs wouldn't be able to sit for AOA boards if they aren't in an osteopathic-focused program.
 
Not how it's gonna work. There are going to be two committees created within the ACGME board to assess OMM and other osteopathic principles in residencies that continue to want to maintain an osteopathic-focused program.

Programs will have from July 1, 2015 until June 30, 2020 to apply for and receive ACGME accreditation. After June 30, 2020, those programs that do not receive ACGME accreditation will cease to exist. The AOA will not accredit any residency programs or examine any programs after 2020. Everyone will be evaluated by the ACGME. The only say the AOA will have will come from the DO's they nominate to the ACGME board and the two osteopathic committees . Osteopathic-focused programs will only answer to the ACGME.

DO in-service exams will cease to exist at the end of this transition. All residents will take the ACGME exams. It is yet to be determined how OMM/osteopathic principles will be tested in osteopathic-focused programs.

As far as board certification, all graduates (MDs included) from Osteopathic-focused programs will be eligible to take the AOA AND/OR the ABMS boards. DOs in traditionally allopathic residencies will be eligible to take both as well, but MDs wouldn't be able to sit for AOA boards if they aren't in an osteopathic-focused program.

except for the last paragraph, which I agree was alluded to pretty strongly in the various letters, where are you getting all the other information from?. I know a lot of that is the most common *assumption* if how it works, but I don't think a single bit of that has been confirmed. For example, we have not been told at all what the two committees will actually do, only that they are broadly for evaluating OMM;osteopathic principles in programs. Its a very non specific role, especially given a similar singular committee was suggested before to figure out how to integrate MDs into AOA programs and then would dissolve in the previous deal. Where does it say this isnt going to be that?

Are you extrapolating? Because you around confident but I know that this information isn't out there right now (unless the acgme online town hall had A LOT more concrete info than my summary of it someone made for me led me to believe). so if you're guessing it would be good to identify it as such. Alternatively, do you have insider information? If so, awesome. We should be talking to you more.
 
Not how it's gonna work. There are going to be two committees created within the ACGME board to assess OMM and other osteopathic principles in residencies that continue to want to maintain an osteopathic-focused program.

Programs will have from July 1, 2015 until June 30, 2020 to apply for and receive ACGME accreditation. After June 30, 2020, those programs that do not receive ACGME accreditation will cease to exist. The AOA will not accredit any residency programs or examine any programs after 2020. Everyone will be evaluated by the ACGME. The only say the AOA will have will come from the DO's they nominate to the ACGME board and the two osteopathic committees . Osteopathic-focused programs will only answer to the ACGME.

DO in-service exams will cease to exist at the end of this transition. All residents will take the ACGME exams. It is yet to be determined how OMM/osteopathic principles will be tested in osteopathic-focused programs.

As far as board certification, all graduates (MDs included) from Osteopathic-focused programs will be eligible to take the AOA AND/OR the ABMS boards. DOs in traditionally allopathic residencies will be eligible to take both as well, but MDs wouldn't be able to sit for AOA boards if they aren't in an osteopathic-focused program.

Makes sense that in-service exams would be eliminated, though I'm surprised they didn't keep it for osteopathic-focused programs.
 


"The revised agreement (Memorandum of Understanding) was modified with respect to dates, with implementation moving from July 1, 2014, to July 1, 2015, and the phase-in period moving from four to five years. Discussions with ACGME provided further details on program structure, accreditation standards and governance." It does appear that these were the only major changes (and the switch from one comittee to two). But that brings us to the next point. The OPTI system was a fiercely defended aspect of the previous negotiations. AKA, the ability to AOA to self-govern its own programs. The commentary back from the AOA on the matter is conflicting in their own responses. First they say "We expect all AOA education committees to remain active at least until 2020. At that time, there will likely be DOs from these committees who will be appointed to the ACGME Residency Review Committees as well as the ACGME Board and various ACGME Board committees." referring to the educsation committees specifically. Without those you really have significantly less control over the residency, but then they say this about the OPTI themselves (who do they actual oversight and checking of competencies): The COPTI, however, may stand as ACGME does not have an OPTI structure.*

*= the ACGME doesnt have an OPTI structure in that it centralized quality control, the AOA localizes it and combines it a bit with research output measurement. So I cant tell if this is a commentary on them wanting to retain the linked-to-a-school-for-research mechanism aspect, or if they want to protect the we-govern-our-own-programs aspect. Becuase the last one it was definitely the latter. But given the modified phrasing they could have given that up.

Besides that... very useful links. I had only seen about half of them. So thanks.
 
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