The April 15th Rule

[elefante7]

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I just thought you all might like an update on previously discussed topic.

A little while ago, there was some discussion on a thread (the acceptances thread, I think) that some schools were putting pressure on accepted out-of-state students to make their decision early in case the class filled up (since the schools over-accept). A lot of people were upset by this because there is supposed to be an agreement between U.S. schools (and perhaps others) that no students is required to decide on their school prior to the April 15th deadline.

I was curious about what was going on, so I mentioned it to our admissions director (we're friends, and we chat a lot). She mentioned it to our associate dean, and I just learned that it has spiraled from there.

Deans of vet schools across the United States are involved in making sure this doesn't happen again, because it isn't fair to applicants and it isn't fair to the other schools. Apparently A LOT of discussion has happened and a lot of people aren't happy that that has been happening.

And this wave of events all started here on SDN...

 

[LetItSnow]

some schools were putting pressure on accepted out-of-state students to make their decision early in case the class filled up (since the schools over-accept).

Seriously? And how were they planning to handle it when more people accepted than they had seats? What schools give out more offers than they have space?

 

[Chinola]

Seriously? And how were they planning to handle it when more people accepted than they had seats? What schools give out more offers than they have space?

Most schools apparently give out more offers than they have space. They know that XX% of OOS students that are accepted usually decline so they purposely over accept. Which resulted in this big mess this year. Last year Kansas couldn't even touch their alternate list because they didn't have enough accepted students decline.

I'm just glad that none of the schools I've been accepted to had that little disclaimer saying that I could get bumped out of my accepted spot.

 

[elefante7]

Most (or at least a lot of) vet schools over-accept their out-of-state students. Schools just gamble that a lot of the students will end up going to their in-state or somewhere else. How much each school over-accepts varies a lot. Most of the time they win the gamble and nothing happens. I know that some schools have gotten in trouble and ended up with a class larger than they can handle (I think Tennessee's 2013 class is huge).

The problem is that some schools over-accept and then tell students that in the event that more students choose their school than have room, they will give the spots to the first people who replied.

 

[LetItSnow]

Most schools apparently give out more offers than they have space. They know that XX% of OOS students that are accepted usually decline so they purposely over accept. Which resulted in this big mess this year. Last year Kansas couldn't even touch their alternate list because they didn't have enough accepted students decline.

Wow. I had no idea they did that. Seems downright crooked - if I were sent an offer, and I sent back my $500 deposit (or whatever), they darn well better have a spot.

I guess what confuses me is the necessity: Why do they even do it? If they're finding they have trouble filling seats, then just make your wait-list deeper and go further into it, rather than overbook your seats?

But then, what do I know? I'm not in admissions.

 

[elefante7]

Haha, I completely did not mean for this to be so confusing.

I am talking about being accepted as opposed to being on a waiting list. These schools also use a waiting list. I also wouldn't be surprised at all if UMN also over-accepted. It wouldn't be something you would necessarily know about.

Let's say a school has 15 out of state slots. They might accept 30 OOS students because they know (based on years passed) that at least 15 people always turn them down. They still go to a waitlist after that, but they don't get to the waitlist as quickly.

 

[elefante7]

Wow. I had no idea they did that. Seems downright crooked - if I were sent an offer, and I sent back my $500 deposit (or whatever), they darn well better have a spot.

I guess what confuses me is the necessity: Why do they even do it? If they're finding they have trouble filling seats, then just make your wait-list deeper and go further into it, rather than overbook your seats?

But then, what do I know? I'm not in admissions.

I'm not sure why they do it. I think there might be less paperwork involved, but I'm also not sure.

 

[LetItSnow]

Haha, I completely did not mean for this to be so confusing.

I think it was my lack of knowledge, rather than you being confusing.

Thanks for the info, though! It is interesting.

 

[light10]

I just thought you all might like an update on previously discussed topic.

A little while ago, there was some discussion on a thread (the acceptances thread, I think) that some schools were putting pressure on accepted out-of-state students to make their decision early in case the class filled up (since the schools over-accept). A lot of people were upset by this because there is supposed to be an agreement between U.S. schools (and perhaps others) that no students is required to decide on their school prior to the April 15th deadline.

I was curious about what was going on, so I mentioned it to our admissions director (we're friends, and we chat a lot). She mentioned it to our associate dean, and I just learned that it has spiraled from there.

Deans of vet schools across the United States are involved in making sure this doesn't happen again, because it isn't fair to applicants and it isn't fair to the other schools. Apparently A LOT of discussion has happened and a lot of people aren't happy that that has been happening.

And this wave of events all started here on SDN...

👍👍 Good job Elephante and the folks who got the ball rolling at UW! I thought this was an very unfair practice - for the other vet schools who didn't employ this technique, and of course for the applicants. I hope that they at least force schools to give no-penalty refunds for people who urgently sent in a deposit, fearful that they'd lose their only offer so far, who were later accepted later at their IS or other higher choice school later. Glad to hear it was indeed against the mutual agreement, and that this will be the only year it happens! Hopefully no 2015er actually loses an offer due to this though.

Overacceptance isn't a huge deal to me - it makes sense from a recruiting standpoint, and its routinely done at all kinds of schools with surprising precision (not perfect, of course). Schools just have to play it safe. If 20% of your OOS offers are typically accepted, plan for a 30-40% yield rate so you aren't surprised by a big year, and then use the waitlist to fill your class.

 

[Psorophoraferox]

Thank you for the update!

Behold, the power of SDN.... 😀

 

[dyachei]

I know that some schools have gotten in trouble and ended up with a class larger than they can handle (I think Tennessee's 2013 class is huge).

This was kind of a special situation, though. We over-accepted because they were increasing class size from 70 to 85. Unfortunately, their math was slightly off (there is a percentage that they use to determine how many to invite and they don't over-accept normally) and they had 96 students accept their offers instead of 85.

The good news is that everyone of those 96 came to UTK. Even though we had to scramble to make sure that everything was in place for an increase that size. I think the class is down to 95 now.

 

[AngSchmange]

I had an interview at RVC, and they have about 60 spots for international/US students, and they usually offer 200, because seriously that many will reject, and stay in the US which is totally understandable. Western is pretty similar, they have 105 spots and will offer much more because it's so expensive, people will choose instate or something cheaper and closer. I'm right in the middle of both of those schools, so distance is not an issue for me lol. But yea, say RVC let's me know of my status this month, then I don't hear from Western till the 15th...could really be harmful to the situation, or I would hope that RVC would give me till April to decide, like the other schools. The 'over acceptance' happens a lot, cause of course people decline offers and that, some people (lucky!) get offers at multiple schools lol. Must be nice!

 

[NStarz]

This is excellent news! Thanks for setting this in motion! I'm super excited because I'm applying next cycle, and I am really thankful that I don't have to deal with this kind of situation (hopefully).

 

[that redhead]

To me, it makes sense to accept exactly as many students as you have places for and make a bigger waitlist. If they offer you an acceptance you should be able to accept any time up to that deadline without worrying about losing your place. Although I also think students should be proactive in researching their schools and prioritizing them after interviews so that there isn't a last minute scramble over "Oh shoot, where do I want to go?!" By making a list of pros and cons of schools after an interview or a visit or even plain old research, you have it on hand for when decision time comes.

 

[Robdude]

I can't imagine anything worse than being waitlisted. So, I'm all for anything that reduces the number of kids put on the list.

Schools send out more acceptances than they want to show up; but I've never heard of a school saying, 'Sorry, we changed our minds; you can't come'. Worst case is that you end up with a few extra kids in your class.

A waitlist is a nightmare. Not just the actual waiting; but the logistics of it. "I have a house, a significant other, and a good job in city X. I'm waitlisted at a school 2,000 miles away. I can either, sell my house, quit my job on the assumption that I'll get in (and possibly end up jobless and house-less in my current city with no acceptance) or keep my life until I get accepted, which could be THE DAY before class starts. Then I'm stuck with no job, rent/housing costs at the vet school, and a mortgage back home, trying to sell a house I'm now 2,000 miles away from.

 

[EllieGirl89]

Schools send out more acceptances than they want to show up; but I've never heard of a school saying, 'Sorry, we changed our minds; you can't come'. Worst case is that you end up with a few extra kids in your class.

This isn't true though. I think a few years ago, a school (was it Kansas?) had way more people accept the offer of admissions than they expected and they had to turn some people down. I'm pretty sure that's true but if it isn't, someone please feel free to correct me.

Also, I think what the impetus for this whole thing was that there were a couple of schools this year basically saying "we over accept, so we will do everything we can to have a seat for you but it's going to be a first-come, first-served basis." So basically, if you snooze, you could lose. This completely goes against the entire system where the schools agree on the April 15th deadline. It pressures students into accepting their offer before that deadline even if they haven't heard back from all their schools yet.

That's the whole issue with this, and I think that those suggesting a longer waitlist are saying that since we can't REALLY predict from year to year exactly how many students will accept or decline offers, the safer option would just be to accept exactly the number of students and waitlist the rest. While the waitlist limbo might suck, I think it would be way better than getting offered admission, waiting to hear back from other schools, getting rejected from them, and then going back to accept your offer from the first school and having them say "oooh, sorry, we don't have room for you."

 

[Robdude]

This isn't true though. I think a few years ago, a school (was it Kansas?) had way more people accept the offer of admissions than they expected and they had to turn some people down. I'm pretty sure that's true but if it isn't, someone please feel free to correct me.

Also, I think what the impetus for this whole thing was that there were a couple of schools this year basically saying "we over accept, so we will do everything we can to have a seat for you but it's going to be a first-come, first-served basis." So basically, if you snooze, you could lose. This completely goes against the entire system where the schools agree on the April 15th deadline. It pressures students into accepting their offer before that deadline even if they haven't heard back from all their schools yet.

That's the whole issue with this, and I think that those suggesting a longer waitlist are saying that since we can't REALLY predict from year to year exactly how many students will accept or decline offers, the safer option would just be to accept exactly the number of students and waitlist the rest. While the waitlist limbo might suck, I think it would be way better than getting offered admission, waiting to hear back from other schools, getting rejected from them, and then going back to accept your offer from the first school and having them say "oooh, sorry, we don't have room for you."

That's horrible. Okay, I'd rather be waitlisted than accepted and then later rejected because they accepted too many students.

Kind of OT - but.....why don't they just open more schools?

 

[nyanko]

Deans of vet schools across the United States are involved in making sure this doesn't happen again, because it isn't fair to applicants and it isn't fair to the other schools. Apparently A LOT of discussion has happened and a lot of people aren't happy that that has been happening.

And this wave of events all started here on SDN...

👍 Good deal, I always thought that was hella shady.

 

[that redhead]

Kind of OT - but.....why don't they just open more schools?

Probably cost is the number one reason - you'd have to pay for new facilities, pay enough to entice faculty to come work for you. The accrediting process isn't simple, either, so factor that in with cost, resources, etc and starting up a new school becomes quite an ordeal. Not to say that it isn't worth it from our standpoint, but it isn't always immediately feasible.

 

[GreenMouse]

Kind of OT - but.....why don't they just open more schools?

I think part of the reason may be that there aren't quite enough jobs for all of the students coming out already (specifically those going into SA practice)- so opening another school would just add to the surplus.

However, the cost of startup mentioned by redhead is also a *huge* and practical factor.

 

[ambulocetus]

in support of over-extension:
i think it is incredibly hard to get together the appropriate numbers for a given class, as every year the accepted students value different things differently - for example for 2012, Penn oversubscribed themselves by a tremendous number, and Cornell was undersubscribed - that year people with offers from both schools just happened to lean towards Penn. But no-one "lost" their space or anything like that (although it was reportedly extremely easy for people to get deferments from Penn that year!). I think keeping a general guideline of April allows people to receive multiple acceptances, and really weigh which ones they want. And April is actually more than enough time for a student that really really wants to go somewhere to scramble and make it happen.
There are many alternatives that haven't been mentioned, but that would make the schools (and therefore not the students!) lives much easier:
-Have to declare any outstanding acceptances at any interview (no point doubling up on offers, its just a mind-game of which double offered student will go where!)
-Offers are made and valid at that point only - things would be infinitely easier for schools if you got called that night and could accept or decline right then, really this is their best option as then they don't "waste" time on interviewing too many people, and no waitlist of any length is really needed...but imagine the horrific choices we would then be faced!

just a thought or two

as mentioned above - i haven't seen any decent evidence supporting a lack of vets...maybe a lack in certain fields, in certain areas, but adding more vets isn't going to change that...

 

[Niri]

Although I also think students should be proactive in researching their schools and prioritizing them after interviews so that there isn't a last minute scramble over "Oh shoot, where do I want to go?!" By making a list of pros and cons of schools after an interview or a visit or even plain old research, you have it on hand for when decision time comes.

Just to play devil's advocate here, what if none of the schools I applied to interviewed, or didn't interview out of state, and I did not have an in-state that I visited routinely? Visiting schools, even post-acceptance, could be difficult if I was accepted in mid or late march and lived a multi-hour drive or flight from any school. And online research cannot replace a trip to campus to really see if I could live there for 4 years. Just want to comment that this would not be possible, or indeed a good idea, for everyone.

 

[holykemp]

I think part of the reason may be that there aren't quite enough jobs for all of the students coming out already (specifically those going into SA practice)- so opening another school would just add to the surplus.

Interesting. I've heard this a few times informally, but the BLS website and a vet professor have said the opposite (http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos076.htm) so I'm not sure what to think now. What else have you heard - I'm always open to hearing other people's thoughts 🙂.

 

[light10]

I think there are definitely ways to make the system more efficient. What if all schools made their IS decisions before Jan 1 or 15 or something and OOS interviews/decisions after that? Then, a LOT of people would withdraw their applications OOS after getting accepted IS, or apply to fewer OOS schools. Perhaps supplemental fees (or even VMCAS fees) for OOS students could even be due after the IS round - that way everyone has to put their money down that they are really interested in a school, already knowing whether IS tuition/location is an option. It would keep costs down for students who are positive they'll attend their IS if they get in, lower application processing manpower for schools, keeps schools from having to guess so much as to whether an applicant is really serious about their school, more students would know earlier where they were going, etc. Might even make it a little easier/more likely to get offers for the poor applicants without an IS school as there would be less competition.

Someday, I'll get to run the world the way I'd like it to go

Also, wasn't there some announcement last fall that Utah was going to start the process of developing their own vet school?

 

[GreenMouse]

Interesting. I've heard this a few times informally, but the BLS website and a vet professor have said the opposite (http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos076.htm) so I'm not sure what to think now. What else have you heard - I'm always open to hearing other people's thoughts 🙂.

Most of what I have heard has also been anecdotal - so you're right that it is probably not very reliable. I tried looking online for any scientific studies of the issue, and have not yet found anything too concrete on the small animal side of things (anyone else have info?).

I did find the "Foresight Report": http://www.jvmeonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/34/1/1

However, this seems to address more of the shortages (large animal, food supply safety, etc) than surplus. They discuss possible tracking scenarios and other ideas for changing the education of future DVMs. I have not read the entire report yet, but did do a search within it to see if I could find something about small animal surplus and did not.

Anyone else have any concrete info?

 

[goldielocks137]

This isn't true though. I think a few years ago, a school (was it Kansas?) had way more people accept the offer of admissions than they expected and they had to turn some people down. I'm pretty sure that's true but if it isn't, someone please feel free to correct me.

This isn't true. Last year Kansas did have too many students accept their positions, but they did not turn any away. They had a larger class than they intended. Whereas the year before when many waitlisted students were accepted, last year I don't think anyone was called off the waitlist.

I asked them about the situation at my interview this year and they said that it wasn't ideal because there isn't as much lab space to accommodate all of the students, but they had managed to make it work. Although they are intending to bring the c/o 2015 back down to the normal size

 

[Cautionary Tail]

Anyone know if Minnesota overaccepts? I don't recall hearing anything about it, and they do tend to accept a lot of waitlisters, but... this is making me nervous.

 

[twelvetigers]

I think you are pretty safe with #4 aside from some freak incident.

Though, given your luck lately...

Also, I hesitate to point it out, but OK did the subtle 'send your deposit now or potentially not get a spot' thing for OOS folks. While it may make things a bit easier when there's a sense of urgency, I still think it shouldn't be done. If nothing else, it's at least rude to scare people like that.

 

[katryn]

I think there are definitely ways to make the system more efficient. What if all schools made their IS decisions before Jan 1 or 15 or something and OOS interviews/decisions after that? Then, a LOT of people would withdraw their applications OOS after getting accepted IS, or apply to fewer OOS schools. Perhaps supplemental fees (or even VMCAS fees) for OOS students could even be due after the IS round - that way everyone has to put their money down that they are really interested in a school, already knowing whether IS tuition/location is an option. It would keep costs down for students who are positive they'll attend their IS if they get in, lower application processing manpower for schools, keeps schools from having to guess so much as to whether an applicant is really serious about their school, more students would know earlier where they were going, etc. Might even make it a little easier/more likely to get offers for the poor applicants without an IS school as there would be less competition.

Someday, I'll get to run the world the way I'd like it to go

Also, wasn't there some announcement last fall that Utah was going to start the process of developing their own vet school?

The only problem is for those students who are not positive they will attend their instate. Not everyone will withdraw an app at an OOS school just because they got an acceptance to their IS. For example, say you interview at your instate first, don't really like it but don't want to turn down your maybe only offer because IS students are required to respond before OOS's are interviewed. They you go interview at an out of state school, and love it to the point where you decide the OOS tuition is worth it. Now you have to rescind your acceptance at your IS school, possibly loose your deposit, and the school still has to pull off the waitlist.

Sometimes even when you think your IS is your top choice, your opinions and decisions change as you interview/tour at different schools.

 

[kaydubs]

It seems any OOS school you pick, they over-accept with good reason. I've talked to people who applied to 14 schools (I'm sure some of you have heard of more...) and at least one of these applicants was going to wait for most of their choices to roll in.....

I was in the "should I accept this offer or stand against pressure" position and, in wanting to go to vet school in the fall, I did put my deposit & acceptance form to Oregon. (Their deposit was $50 or I would have definitely not done so until hearing from Tufts). They had the "we over accept & we will refuse people who don't accept quickest." Being that they only have 16 OOS spots (WICHE included) I thought I'd best act quickly. Fortunately, I will be changing my school choice to my #1 (TUFTS) and will be withdrawing my app everywhere. (I have yet to receive rejections fortunately, but I've been waitlisted and heard zip news from my IS. Today should be most entertaining...)

Good luck to C/O 2016 & my class (2015, baby! Let's rock this!) - and all of the other classes who've come before me of course 😀

 

[that redhead]

Just to play devil's advocate here, what if none of the schools I applied to interviewed, or didn't interview out of state, and I did not have an in-state that I visited routinely? Visiting schools, even post-acceptance, could be difficult if I was accepted in mid or late march and lived a multi-hour drive or flight from any school. And online research cannot replace a trip to campus to really see if I could live there for 4 years. Just want to comment that this would not be possible, or indeed a good idea, for everyone.

No, I certainly understand that. But it seems to me that you can form a pretty solid list of pros and cons based on reserach/facts/SDN info alone - tuition, location/weather, local job market for a SO, housing prices, opinions from other students, curriculum etc. Nothing can duplicate the true "feel" of the school aside from a visit - however, I think the majority of decisions are not based on "feel" alone but these other factors that can be easily learned without visiting the school in question.

I guess to me, it's always a little silly when people are like OHSNAPWHEREDOIGO? Because to me, you decided to apply there for a reason and you can easily compare these factors on your own and come to some sort of rough conclusion. Feel can certainly be a deciding factor but there's no reason to freak out completely 🙂

 

[sumstorm]

Personally, I think feel could rule out a school more than it would be the deciding factor for a school. A place could have everything going for it, but if you hate every step you take in it on a visit, when you should be giddy and excited, that can have a huge impact on the decision.

Basicly, though, the schools made an agreement, and they should stick to that agreement, or a new agreement should be negotiated.

 

[kaydubs]

Nothing can duplicate the true "feel" of the school aside from a visit - however, I think the majority of decisions are not based on "feel" alone but these other factors that can be easily learned without visiting the school in question.

I guess to me, it's always a little silly when people are like OHSNAPWHEREDOIGO? Because to me, you decided to apply there for a reason and you can easily compare these factors on your own and come to some sort of rough conclusion. Feel can certainly be a deciding factor but there's no reason to freak out completely 🙂

This Feel you speak of was important to me. I kept my life less expense wise by only applying to 4 that I really wanted to go to. Lots of people told me I was very foolish for only applying to so few but, I got in to my #1 (and another as well) so, it will work out. (And, I had a ton of backup plans but the best feeling is when all of those backup plans become just what they were - imaginary rather than necessary)

 

[SouthJerseyBell]

I don't think the "Over acceptance" is an issue, many vet schools, med schools, and even undergraduates do as well. and even those schools are getting larger class sizes than they can handle (my undergrad had to put people up in a hotel down the road because of the gigantic class size). But the point is, if the schools over accept, their decision is final and the schools deal with the consequences if more people accept then reject. They should adjust their numbers accordingly to recent trends of larger class sizes.

My personal experience with the rushing OOSers to make a decision was with Virginia-Maryland. They had 15 OOS seats available and upon acceptance their letter read "you have until April 15th, OR until all the 15 at large (OOS) seats are filled." They utilized the same practice of over-accepting, but created a limit to the amount they actually seated. I know many people who rushed to put a deposit down just because they didn't want to loose their seat, but will probably rescind their choice once they hear from other schools. (and unlike Oregon, their deposit was $1,000. not a fee that I can easily seperate with!! lol). I waited it out and I got accepted to another school which I am happier with. I consider myself lucky because I was also accepted to an international school, so I felt that I could take that chance with Virginia-maryland and wait it out.

I think the April 15th deadline needs to be enforced so that students don't make a rushed decision, they don't falsely put down a deposit only to reserve a spot, rather than have it be a committed dedication to that school, and to ensure that the schools themselves have an accurate number of attending students.

And to the visiting, it definitely makes a big impression about your decision, it actually shifted a few schools in my order of preference a lot (VMRCVM 👎), Tufts 👍, and Purdue 👍). Visiting is definitely important, seeing the local area, housing options, friendliness of staff and students. Its just as important as the education you are receiving because it is the support and guidance you are getting that will help you through school.

 

[Minnerbelle]

I guess to me, it's always a little silly when people are like OHSNAPWHEREDOIGO? Because to me, you decided to apply there for a reason and you can easily compare these factors on your own and come to some sort of rough conclusion. Feel can certainly be a deciding factor but there's no reason to freak out completely 🙂

I dunno, I think I'm gonna have to sorta disagree with this one. I applied to a bunch of schools but not because I loved them all. I figured going to any of the vet schools I applied to would be better than not going to a vet school at all. So after ruling out places because of location and pre-reqs, I applied to every vet school I could (7 total) without knowing much about most of them. I figured if I got into only one of those, I would go no matter what. If I got into more than one, then I would actually learn about the merits of each school and figure it out from there.

I think the actual visiting is important because it's really hard to actually picture yourself at the school from the internet. As much as CSU was my first choice, I was very apprehensive about committing to it (and they didn't even have a deposit!!!) until I came out for a visit. I don't think there was much information actually out there about how it's like to be a student at CSU anywhere on the interwebs. So I'm not really a fan of picking a school based on which school has the best website/ more info available online.

 

[lalaland]

This Feel you speak of was important to me. I kept my life less expense wise by only applying to 4 that I really wanted to go to. Lots of people told me I was very foolish for only applying to so few but, I got in to my #1 (and another as well) so, it will work out. (And, I had a ton of backup plans but the best feeling is when all of those backup plans become just what they were - imaginary rather than necessary)

I was told that applying to more than 3-4 schools does not improve your chances, in part because they can see how many other schools you applied to and the more you apply to the less serious they may think you are about their school. Some people might say that's not true, that they decide based on only your stats/interview/etc. But there was one school (WSU) who required me to list all the (10!) schools I applied to on their supplemental app, even though they could see it on the VMCAS app, and although according to their Tier system and my GRE scores, I was virtually guaranteed an interview, I did not get one. So I have a personal opinion that applying to more schools can be a disadvantage in some cases. That said, I got in to just one of the 10 schools I applied to, a school that I did not expect to get into and probably wouldn't have applied to had I applied to only 3-4 schools.

Sorry, that was long and a little off-topic!

 

[withoutane]

I was told that applying to more than 3-4 schools does not improve your chances, in part because they can see how many other schools you applied to and the more you apply to the less serious they may think you are about their school. Some people might say that's not true, that they decide based on only your stats/interview/etc. But there was one school (WSU) who required me to list all the (10!) schools I applied to on their supplemental app, even though they could see it on the VMCAS app

Wait...they can see how many schools you applied to on VMCAS? I feel like that might be a breach of privacy! I don't remember saying that was ok when I filled out the VMCAS...

 

[Minnerbelle]

I was told that applying to more than 3-4 schools does not improve your chances, in part because they can see how many other schools you applied to and the more you apply to the less serious they may think you are about their school.

There may be some schools that care, but I don't think it's all that wide spread. I think most vet schools know how random the admissions process is, and is completely understanding of the fact that applicants have to play the numbers game. In fact, many schools will often tell people during their post-mortems that they probably would get in somewhere had they applied more broadly.

I think Lalzi applied to like 21 schools, and she was accepted to a bunch. I'm not sure how much of a hinderance it was in her case.

Even when I told me interviewers that Tufts that I'd already been accepted to other schools (and I think this also happened with Turnbackhelly as well), they still accepted me. One of my interviewers even said "I think you have a lot to contribute to our program, but I hope you will find happiness where you end up going," as if he was sure I wouldn't be choosing Tufts.

 

[NStarz]

I plan on applying to 14 schools. I'm already taking a year off, and I'd rather do the application once and do it right than have to take any more time off. If one school out of 14 thinks I'm being unreasonable, then I can accept that. Like minnerbelle said, I think they know how much of a crapshoot this process is and they shouldn't penalize people for trying to give themselves the best chance possible. I have a good reason (at least 1 🙂 ) for applying to every school on my list, so I will be able to rattle off reasons if necessary.

 

[AngSchmange]

JerseyBell, which international school did you get accepted to, and which out of the ones you got accepted to did you choose? Or have you not chosen yet? I've gotten an offer from RVC and hope to get one from Western, so I'll be in the same boat...trying to choose between my two top choices. I applied to 10 and found it funny that I got interviewed at my top two, I wasn't sure that would happen, so I kinda wasted all of that extra money haha. I found out the morning of my interview at Western that I had an offer at RVC, which really calmed my nerves and I'm sure made my interview much better than if I hadn't heard from RVC.

I had to list all the schools I had applied to on some supplementals, but it wasn't like I HAD to put down every one...haha. TAMU I put that I applied to like 6...and I still got denied but I doubt that had anything to do with it. They just really like IS-ers 😛

I also heard NCSU wasn't mailing OUT acceptance letters for IS-ers till Mid-April which would be REALLY ridiculous, but maybe they're just behind on choosing the right class for them, who knows. I bet NCSU and some other top schools don't over-offer though, and I heard that last year Cornell actually dug into their denial pool because so many offers and wait-listers said no. I doubt that'd be in the cards for me this year however 😛

 

[Pelagia]

I applied to a bunch of schools but not because I loved them all. I figured going to any of the vet schools I applied to would be better than not going to a vet school at all. So after ruling out places because of location and pre-reqs, I applied to every vet school I could (7 total) without knowing much about most of them. I figured if I got into only one of those, I would go no matter what. If I got into more than one, then I would actually learn about the merits of each school and figure it out from there.

I did something somewhat similar since I was applying to only OOS schools. I wanted to make sure I'd get in somewhere! My mantra was "treat every school like it's the only one you're going to." And I did. I put my all into each and every application and essay question for the 8 schools I applied to. In retrospect, I guess it was overkill to apply to 8, seeing as how I got into three of them and was offered interviews at three other ones, which I declined (because I decided that three I had gotten into already were pretty darn awesome, and I didn't need to spend more money to consider other schools because I knew I'd end up at one of the three). Honestly, though, I was so, so worried about getting into any school that I guess I couldn't have acted differently. Plus, if I had applied to fewer, I'm not sure I would have necessarily chosen the places that ended up accepting me because I have confidence issues and wasn't sure if I had "high enough" stats to make it is as an OOSer. So actually, I guess I'm glad I applied the way I did. Anyway, I visited each of the three schools, which were very exciting and invaluable experiences! While internet research is very informative (and necessary, I'd say), it's best if supplemented by a visit to the school. There's just so much you glean from a visit that you can't from internet research--the sense of community at the school, what the school's facilities are actually like, the weather, the traffic, the culture of the city, what housing it like, how well the students get along with each other, etc...

 

[sumstorm]

I also heard NCSU wasn't mailing OUT acceptance letters for IS-ers till Mid-April which would be REALLY ridiculous, but maybe they're just behind on choosing the right class for them, who knows. I bet NCSU and some other top schools don't over-offer though, and I heard that last year Cornell actually dug into their denial pool because so many offers and wait-listers said no. I doubt that'd be in the cards for me this year however 😛

don't know about over-offering, but the mail out for IS is March, not April. we certainly have folks come off the waitlist.

 

[AngSchmange]

Good! I can't imagine, if I were one of the ISers I'd be dying!

 

[VMCAS001]

Wait...they can see how many schools you applied to on VMCAS? I feel like that might be a breach of privacy! I don't remember saying that was ok when I filled out the VMCAS...

VMCAS Schools Cannot See, and are not told how many schools VMCAS applicants are applying to through the VMCAS application. In fact, it is not until final matriculation reports are run (when you sit in class) are they shown by VMCAS what other schools you applied to.

 

[VMCAS001]

👍👍 Good job Elephante and the folks who got the ball rolling at UW! I thought this was an very unfair practice - for the other vet schools who didn't employ this technique, and of course for the applicants. I hope that they at least force schools to give no-penalty refunds for people who urgently sent in a deposit, fearful that they'd lose their only offer so far, who were later accepted later at their IS or other higher choice school later. Glad to hear it was indeed against the mutual agreement, and that this will be the only year it happens! Hopefully no 2015er actually loses an offer due to this though.

Overacceptance isn't a huge deal to me - it makes sense from a recruiting standpoint, and its routinely done at all kinds of schools with surprising precision (not perfect, of course). Schools just have to play it safe. If 20% of your OOS offers are typically accepted, plan for a 30-40% yield rate so you aren't surprised by a big year, and then use the waitlist to fill your class.

The Association of American Veterinary Medical Colleges, and their Board of Directors issued an AAVMC policy (to be followed by all veterinary schools in the U.S.) stating that Veterinary Schools must give applicants until April 15th to give final decisions. If a school pressures you to make a decision before then, you should send them to this website:

http://www.aavmc.org/Admissions-and-Applications/Acceptance-Deadline.aspx

 

[CurrySpice]

I heard that last year Cornell actually dug into their denial pool because so many offers and wait-listers said no. I doubt that'd be in the cards for me this year however 😛

That doesn't make any sense to me (although it may be true). Why wouldn't they just make a giant waitlist? I don't think there's a limit to the number of people they can put on the waitlist...

 

[alliecat44]

That doesn't make any sense to me (although it may be true). Why wouldn't they just make a giant waitlist? I don't think there's a limit to the number of people they can put on the waitlist...

Because each school wants to have the absolute highest-quality students. And if you make the next-highest quality students wait to get pulled of the waitlist, chances are they've already been accepted elsewhere (and it's after April 15...).

Re: the jobs front/"veterinary shortage"/increasing class size issue: people are having a hugely difficult time finding jobs right now. Faculty have commented that they can't ever remember this many students not having jobs at this point in the year. There is a tremendous OVERsupply of SA veterinarians in general, but even people interested in rural mixed practice in this state are having an extremely difficult time finding jobs.

(And I know this is being repeated elsewhere in the country.)

Just FYI.

 

[bre8162]

Well Illinois WAY WAY over accepted this year and it has been all the buzz through out the school. Instead of 120 they have 140. Bad thing is that the class rooms can not even sit this amount of people. Illinois does not have a deposit, so many of these people could be holding their spots until another school calls, but I guess they have never been this overwhelmed with acceptances before. I am wondering what they are going to do about it. It is really not fair for people that chose the school for the class size and factors related to it.
I feel like people accepting an offer and then being told they can not have that spot is ridiculous especially if they turned down other offers prior. The whole rushing and taking away positions is just not fair. Nice to know something will be done. Even though I am not happy that my class size will be significantly larger I would never want to see someone's offer rescinded for that. They are not at fault.

 

[Bill59]

Re: the jobs front/"veterinary shortage"/increasing class size issue: people are having a hugely difficult time finding jobs right now. Faculty have commented that they can't ever remember this many students not having jobs at this point in the year. There is a tremendous OVERsupply of SA veterinarians in general, but even

I'll echo this. The number of job offers were way down this year and last year. Many practice owners have seen their revenues go down and they are still unsure when this will improve. Even practices that are busy enough for another veterinarian are often scared to hire until they see how the economy is going to go. Payroll is a huge expense and nobdy wants to hire a new vet only to have to let them go 6 months later.

 

[CurrySpice]

Because each school wants to have the absolute highest-quality students. And if you make the next-highest quality students wait to get pulled of the waitlist, chances are they've already been accepted elsewhere (and it's after April 15...).

Just FYI.

My post was wondering why Cornell didn't expand the bottom portion of their waitlist (aka deny less students). Then they would have had a longer waitlist of students to choose from rather than pulling from the denial pool.

I completely agree with you that overacceptance is a necessary evil (and a calculated risk) in order to ensure the highest quality class.