The Battle Lines are Drawn.... Romney vs. Obama

Started by BLADEMDA
This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Get help with your application

Use all the free resources available to you from SDN: articles, guides, expert advising, forums discussions, and school research.

Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
I don't understand your physics here. "Solar escape velocity" is moving away from the sun. That is not in play here - the object is moving towards the sun. All an object has to do is make it past the L1 Lagrange point, and the sun's gravity does the rest. What you say would be correct if the object was being shot out of the solar system.

That's not quite right, though there are some fun consequences to playing around with Lagrange points.

If you put an object at the sun-earth L1, and nudge it a tiny bit toward the sun, it will move away from the L1 point. But just because it moves away from L1, doesn't mean it will fall into the sun. An object exactly at the sun-earth L1 point isn't stationary; it's still orbiting the sun at a speed reasonably close to that of the earth. If you nudge our L1-parked ship full of welfare bums toward the sun, it will leave the L1 point and find itself in a more elliptical orbit around the sun.

Regardless of your orbit around the sun, it takes about a 41% increase in tangential velocity to escape the solar system. It still takes a 100% loss to fall into the sun. You can't fudge those numbers by playing with Lagrange points even if you take advantage of very efficient travel between Lagrange points. Just because you can get from the sun-earth L1 point to the sun-mercury L1 point without expending much fuel, doesn't mean you can then get from the sun-mercury L1 point into the sun without paying for it. You'll still be in a circular orbit of the sun, at roughly Mercury's orbital velocity (48 km/sec). From there, you can either spend the fuel to bleed off all 48 km/sec and fall into the sun, or (per the 41% rule), spend the fuel to accelerate another ~20 km/s to ~68 km/s which is the solar escape velocity starting at Mercury's orbit.

Even if you get clever and cheaply Lagrange-transport the welfare bums out to, say, one of the sun-neptune points, it's no good. Neptune's orbital velocity is only about 5.5 km/s so you could pay the fuel cost to decelerate from 5.5 to zero, and then (eventually) your payload will hit the sun. But there's no point to that - once you've got them all the way to Neptune, it's still cheaper to just hurl them out of the solar system (the delta-v for that is 41% of 5.5 or 2.25 k/s) than to slow them down enough that they'll plummet to a fiery solar death.

Fuel-wise, it actually is cheaper to launch someone into the sun by sending them to Neptune first, than by taking the direct path. It has a certain style to it too ... they get a (very long) grand tour of the solar system first.

It will always be more fuel-efficient to exit the solar system than to go to the sun though.
 
That's not quite right, though there are some fun consequences to playing around with Lagrange points.

If you put an object at the sun-earth L1, and nudge it a tiny bit toward the sun, it will move away from the L1 point. But just because it moves away from L1, doesn't mean it will fall into the sun. An object exactly at the sun-earth L1 point isn't stationary; it's still orbiting the sun at a speed reasonably close to that of the earth. If you nudge our L1-parked ship full of welfare bums toward the sun, it will leave the L1 point and find itself in a more elliptical orbit around the sun.

Regardless of your orbit around the sun, it takes about a 41% increase in tangential velocity to escape the solar system. It still takes a 100% loss to fall into the sun. You can't fudge those numbers by playing with Lagrange points even if you take advantage of very efficient travel between Lagrange points. Just because you can get from the sun-earth L1 point to the sun-mercury L1 point without expending much fuel, doesn't mean you can then get from the sun-mercury L1 point into the sun without paying for it. You'll still be in a circular orbit of the sun, at roughly Mercury's orbital velocity (48 km/sec). From there, you can either spend the fuel to bleed off all 48 km/sec and fall into the sun, or (per the 41% rule), spend the fuel to accelerate another ~20 km/s to ~68 km/s which is the solar escape velocity starting at Mercury's orbit.

Even if you get clever and cheaply Lagrange-transport the welfare bums out to, say, one of the sun-neptune points, it's no good. Neptune's orbital velocity is only about 5.5 km/s so you could pay the fuel cost to decelerate from 5.5 to zero, and then (eventually) your payload will hit the sun. But there's no point to that - once you've got them all the way to Neptune, it's still cheaper to just hurl them out of the solar system (the delta-v for that is 41% of 5.5 or 2.25 k/s) than to slow them down enough that they'll plummet to a fiery solar death.

Fuel-wise, it actually is cheaper to launch someone into the sun by sending them to Neptune first, than by taking the direct path. It has a certain style to it too ... they get a (very long) grand tour of the solar system first.

It will always be more fuel-efficient to exit the solar system than to go to the sun though.

You're still missing the point. All Obama has to do is say "Yes We Can" send a spacecraft to the sun, "Put people to work" by quadrupling the number of employees at NASA, "Invest in the future" with your tax dollars, and when it does fail, fall back on the "It lacked proper funding and regulations blocked by the party of no" line.
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
You're still missing the point. All Obama has to do is say "Yes We Can" send a spacecraft to the sun, "Put people to work" by quadrupling the number of employees at NASA, "Invest in the future" with your tax dollars, and when it does fail, fall back on the "It lacked proper funding and regulations blocked by the party of no" line.

Or the Mitt Romney way. He has a plan to get to the Sun but he can't tell you how it works, how much it will cost, or anything specific, but trust him it's a super good plan. He can however, tell you that his plan is better than Obama's plan, costs less, and doesn't use any new spending.
 
That's not quite right, though there are some fun consequences to playing around with Lagrange points.

If you put an object at the sun-earth L1, and nudge it a tiny bit toward the sun, it will move away from the L1 point. But just because it moves away from L1, doesn't mean it will fall into the sun. An object exactly at the sun-earth L1 point isn't stationary; it's still orbiting the sun at a speed reasonably close to that of the earth. If you nudge our L1-parked ship full of welfare bums toward the sun, it will leave the L1 point and find itself in a more elliptical orbit around the sun.

Regardless of your orbit around the sun, it takes about a 41% increase in tangential velocity to escape the solar system. It still takes a 100% loss to fall into the sun. You can't fudge those numbers by playing with Lagrange points even if you take advantage of very efficient travel between Lagrange points. Just because you can get from the sun-earth L1 point to the sun-mercury L1 point without expending much fuel, doesn't mean you can then get from the sun-mercury L1 point into the sun without paying for it. You'll still be in a circular orbit of the sun, at roughly Mercury's orbital velocity (48 km/sec). From there, you can either spend the fuel to bleed off all 48 km/sec and fall into the sun, or (per the 41% rule), spend the fuel to accelerate another ~20 km/s to ~68 km/s which is the solar escape velocity starting at Mercury's orbit.

Even if you get clever and cheaply Lagrange-transport the welfare bums out to, say, one of the sun-neptune points, it's no good. Neptune's orbital velocity is only about 5.5 km/s so you could pay the fuel cost to decelerate from 5.5 to zero, and then (eventually) your payload will hit the sun. But there's no point to that - once you've got them all the way to Neptune, it's still cheaper to just hurl them out of the solar system (the delta-v for that is 41% of 5.5 or 2.25 k/s) than to slow them down enough that they'll plummet to a fiery solar death.

Fuel-wise, it actually is cheaper to launch someone into the sun by sending them to Neptune first, than by taking the direct path. It has a certain style to it too ... they get a (very long) grand tour of the solar system first.

It will always be more fuel-efficient to exit the solar system than to go to the sun though.

Ugh, astrophysics always sucked - that's why I haven't taken a class in it in over 20 years. Sure, your explanation is detailed, but it still skirts around a straightforward answer - why can't the bus full of bums and welfare cheats be shot straight out from Earth, exceeding Earth's escape velocity (which needs to be the only mention of escape velocity), straight at the sun? Why would that not work? Do not mention the sun's escape velocity, or any other planets. That is obfuscatory (!). Even if I am wrong about the Lagrange point, why can't a straight shot into the sun work?
 
Or the Mitt Romney way. He has a plan to get to the Sun but he can't tell you how it works, how much it will cost, or anything specific, but trust him it's a super good plan. He can however, tell you that his plan is better than Obama's plan, costs less, and doesn't use any new spending.

Not true. Romney can tell you EXACTLY how it works and EXACTLY how much it costs... of course, the problem being it's a different answer everytime you ask him.
 
Sure, your explanation is detailed, but it still skirts around a straightforward answer - why can't the bus full of bums and welfare cheats be shot straight out from Earth, exceeding Earth's escape velocity (which needs to be the only mention of escape velocity), straight at the sun? Why would that not work?

It won't work because the entire system is in motion.

SUN . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . L1. . . . EARTH

Those points aren't just sitting there. The earth is moving pretty fast (30 km/sec) in a circle around the sun.* An object at L1 is also moving in a circle around the sun. Its actual solar orbital velocity will be a bit less than that of earth (same solar orbital period as earth but a shorter path) but it's not zero.

If the earth was suddenly vaporized by Vogons and its gravitational influence immediately became zero, an object at L1 still wouldn't just fall into the sun. It would continue orbiting the sun (albeit in a more elliptical fashion, now that the earth's influence was gone).

If you push an object at L1 toward the sun, it will leave the L1 point (which is unstable) and enter an elliptical orbit of the sun. To hit the sun you need to stop orbiting it first, which means decelerating away all of your existing tangential velocity.

Do not mention the sun's escape velocity, or any other planets. That is obfuscatory (!).

You can't ignore inconvenient and relevant factors just because they make the problem hard.


I'll just go ahead and counter your next criticism now too. Once you've accepted the above, you're going to suggest that we nudge the object away from L1, into an elliptical orbit around the sun which happens to cross the orbit of Venus. You're going to suggest we time it so that the object passes just in front of Venus, using its gravity to swing it into directly into the sun.

This won't work either. Since you're now in a tighter orbit of the sun and you haven't done anything to reduce the object's speed (it has in fact sped up a great deal by the time it crosses the orbit of Venus), its path would have to be so close to Venus' center of mass that it would hit Venus.


Once you've accepted that won't work because Venus is a planet and not a point mass, next you'll suggest an aerobraking maneuver in Venus' atmosphere. Nudge away from L1 enough to get into an elliptical orbit that crosses Venus' path, get real close to the planet so that you don't hit the surface but pass through its atmosphere, and use that drag to slow down enough to exit Venus in a path straight at the sun.

That won't work either. I can't do the math to prove it, but I've seen it (somewhere), and though I didn't completely understand it, I believed the author's claim that there isn't enough atmosphere to slow down a spacecraft on an earth-to-venus trajectory (absent parachutes made of unobtainium) enough to make the sharp turn into the sun.


You're still stuck with the same basic problem: accelerate 41% to get out of the solar system, or decelerate 100% to get to the sun.


* Earth's orbit isn't a perfect circle, but it's close enough.
 
It won't work because the entire system is in motion.

SUN . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . L1. . . . EARTH

Those points aren't just sitting there. The earth is moving pretty fast (30 km/sec) in a circle around the sun.* An object at L1 is also moving in a circle around the sun. Its actual solar orbital velocity will be a bit less than that of earth (same solar orbital period as earth but a shorter path) but it's not zero.

If the earth was suddenly vaporized by Vogons and its gravitational influence immediately became zero, an object at L1 still wouldn't just fall into the sun. It would continue orbiting the sun (albeit in a more elliptical fashion, now that the earth's influence was gone).

If you push an object at L1 toward the sun, it will leave the L1 point (which is unstable) and enter an elliptical orbit of the sun. To hit the sun you need to stop orbiting it first, which means decelerating away all of your existing tangential velocity.



You can't ignore inconvenient and relevant factors just because they make the problem hard.


I'll just go ahead and counter your next criticism now too. Once you've accepted the above, you're going to suggest that we nudge the object away from L1, into an elliptical orbit around the sun which happens to cross the orbit of Venus. You're going to suggest we time it so that the object passes just in front of Venus, using its gravity to swing it into directly into the sun.

This won't work either. Since you're now in a tighter orbit of the sun and you haven't done anything to reduce the object's speed (it has in fact sped up a great deal by the time it crosses the orbit of Venus), its path would have to be so close to Venus' center of mass that it would hit Venus.


Once you've accepted that won't work because Venus is a planet and not a point mass, next you'll suggest an aerobraking maneuver in Venus' atmosphere. Nudge away from L1 enough to get into an elliptical orbit that crosses Venus' path, get real close to the planet so that you don't hit the surface but pass through its atmosphere, and use that drag to slow down enough to exit Venus in a path straight at the sun.

That won't work either. I can't do the math to prove it, but I've seen it (somewhere), and though I didn't completely understand it, I believed the author's claim that there isn't enough atmosphere to slow down a spacecraft on an earth-to-venus trajectory (absent parachutes made of unobtainium) enough to make the sharp turn into the sun.


You're still stuck with the same basic problem: accelerate 41% to get out of the solar system, or decelerate 100% to get to the sun.


* Earth's orbit isn't a perfect circle, but it's close enough.

There's the solution: launch them into Venus! It's just as effective and probably easier.
 
I'll just go ahead and counter your next criticism now too.

You give me too much credit.

You're still stuck with the same basic problem: accelerate 41% to get out of the solar system, or decelerate 100% to get to the sun.

Why do you have to decelerate into the sun? Why can't you maintain constant velocity? I mean, when you jump up on Earth, gravity brings you back down. Why would an object orbit instead of falling into the object? Decaying orbits occur all the time around Earth. Astronauts have returned safely to Earth for more than 50 years. What is different about going into the sun?
 
The solution is to set fire to the sun!!!

Set_fire_to_the_sun.jpg
 
so how come asteroids with no mechanical moving parts and no decelerating burns manage to hit the earth, and the moon, and the sun? What am I missing?
 
so how come asteroids with no mechanical moving parts and no decelerating burns manage to hit the earth, and the moon, and the sun? What am I missing?

It'd be cheaper to bring the sun to earth with a well controlled nuclear reaction. Just send bums to north korea and they'll bring the sun to them free of charge.
 
Apollyon said:
Why do you have to decelerate into the sun? Why can't you maintain constant velocity?

Because tangential velocity is, by definition, not in the direction of the sun. Going really fast in the wrong direction won't get you where you want to go.

Apollyon said:
I mean, when you jump up on Earth, gravity brings you back down. Why would an object orbit instead of falling into the object? Decaying orbits occur all the time around Earth. Astronauts have returned safely to Earth for more than 50 years. What is different about going into the sun?

Low earth orbits decay because of atmospheric drag (and a couple other almost negligible factors). When astronauts want to get back home, they don't fire the rockets away from the earth and accelerate straight toward it. They fire the rockets 90 degrees from that, in the direction of their actual orbital travel, and as they slow down, their altitude drops until they get low enough to hit atmosphere dense enough for drag to do the rest of the horizontal deceleration. They don't come straight down.

The sun's atmosphere doesn't extend nearly far enough to decay orbits this far out. The other nearly-negligible orbit decaying forces I mentioned above, like tidal forces, are even more negligible at solar distances.


so how come asteroids with no mechanical moving parts and no decelerating burns manage to hit the earth, and the moon, and the sun? What am I missing?

Things that hit the earth lately (lately being a very relative term) tend to be objects in very very eccentric/elliptical orbits. Those orbits can avoid hitting stuff for a very very long time.

Every year we get the Perseid meteor shower. These are not objects in a circular orbit around the sun; they're part of a large cloud of junk from a comet, which has a very elliptical orbit. The earth passes through that cloud of junk every summer and we get hit by a bunch of little rocks.

None of the asteroids out in the belt are going to spontaneously exit their circular orbits and visit earth, unless something else hits or drags them while passing through, and that doesn't happen often, thankfully.

Larger objects in very large orbits (think >>pluto size orbits), have periods that are very, very long. The Oort cloud is something like a light year out there. The Kuiper belt isn't close either Some of these objects are in elliptical orbits that drop through the solar system every once in a very great while. It's thought that Halley's Comet started off out there but ended up dropping through too close to Jupiter which altered its orbit and now we see it every 76 years instead of every (lot more than 76) years, but I don't think this is proven. Anyway some of that junk drops through and hits things from time to time.

Shoemaker Levy was another comet that came through, got captured by Jupiter's gravity, and after a few orbits, got very close (inside the Roche limit, which broke it up in to pieces via tidal forces), and the next time around hit the planet. But it didn't start in a stable, circular orbits around the sun.

Sometimes those big, very long period objects will pass other objects in stable orbits while going through the solar system, and alter those other objects' orbits enough to make them (eventually) hit a planet. This sort of thing was thought to be much more common long ago, but obviously there's no matter factory out there, and every object that hits a planet is one less object that might hit a planet in the future. Our solar system is a lot emptier than it used to be, but there's still a lot of stuff way the hell out there. The stuff with orbits intersecting the inner solar system don't visit often, but that's not never.

Kuiper_oort.jpg



Aaand we're approaching, if not exceeding, the edges of my knowledge of this stuff.
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
It seems we could calculate the length of time it would take to travel to the sun, and calculate the location of the sun in that amount of time, and meet the sun there. Just aim dead center, no decaying orbit fancy smancy landing, just an arrow flying for a very long time at a moving target. Now our arrow won't fly straight and will accelerate as it nears the death star, but we should be able to account for our ships curving path and be able to hit the target. Maybe the math is beyond our ability to aim? or maybe the initial velocity to head more or less straight for the sun is beyond our ability to generate and we are forced to travel in a variant of earth's orbit?
 
It seems we could calculate the length of time it would take to travel to the sun, and calculate the location of the sun in that amount of time, and meet the sun there. Just aim dead center, no decaying orbit fancy smancy landing, just an arrow flying for a very long time at a moving target. Now our arrow won't fly straight and will accelerate as it nears the death star, but we should be able to account for our ships curving path and be able to hit the target. Maybe the math is beyond our ability to aim? or maybe the initial velocity to head more or less straight for the sun is beyond our ability to generate and we are forced to travel in a variant of earth's orbit?

Exactly. Tangential velocity isn't the end-all, be-all. Hell, any kid playing a game knows that, if they drop a bomb from their plane, it isn't going to go straight down. That was "discovered" by quite possibly THE smartest man that ever lived, Sir Isaac Newton (and a humble ass guy, too - every time I see or hear of someone in the arts with a huge ego, I think of Newton). If you're going in the wrong direction, you make a course correction.
 
Exactly. Tangential velocity isn't the end-all, be-all. Hell, any kid playing a game knows that, if they drop a bomb from their plane, it isn't going to go straight down. That was "discovered" by quite possibly THE smartest man that ever lived, Sir Isaac Newton (and a humble ass guy, too - every time I see or hear of someone in the arts with a huge ego, I think of Newton). If you're going in the wrong direction, you make a course correction.

You're both wrong 🙂 ....

Short version: you CAN make the "course correction" you're talking about. The problem is that such a course correction requires a delta-v equal to your initial orbital velocity, which is more than the delta-v needed to exit the solar system.

It's not impossible to hit the sun, it just costs more than to leave the solar system entirely.
 
Pgg,
I see your point. No rocket would travel in a straight line to the sun as soon as it leaves the earth. It would have to decelerate from its orbit. But, a rocket could be constantly aimed at the sun while accelerating/thrusting towards it, not decelerating; just this nose of the ship aimed directly at the sun. This would just be a matter of adjusting the yaw of the the ship. It would follow an orbital/spiral path to the sun. That would be the fastest way to get it done, I think, but using a lot of fuel. What if the ship traveled at .98c (c=speed of light. 3.0 x 10E8m/s), time dilation on the ship, volume contraction, 'captain's log' in the toilet on the enterprise for all the trekkies out there, etc. Or better yet, send the ship outside of L2 and away from the sun all together at the solar escape velocity you mentioned previously.
I'm just responding to the space travel part, not the part of condemning folks who are deemed as undesireable.
This is one of my favorite subjects in physics.
 
Last edited:
But, a rocket could be constantly aimed at the sun while accelerating/thrusting towards it, not decelerating; just this nose of the ship aimed directly at the sun. This would just be a matter of adjusting the yaw of the the ship. It would follow an orbital/spiral path to the sun. That would be the fastest way to get it done, I think, but using a lot of fuel.

That would work - I've never argued that it's not possible to launch something into the sun. Just that it takes more fuel to get there, than to leave the solar system entirely. It's not exactly intuitive, but it's the way the math works. 🙂

If you step back and look at the solar system from a distance, objects on/near earth are moving really, really fast in a direction that's NOT toward the sun. It's not that it's prohibitively hard to get to the sun. It's just comparatively easy to go the other direction and leave it completely.
 
Obama paid lower tax rate than secretary

Published April 13, 2012
FoxNews.com

President Obama and first lady Michelle Obama had a combined income of $789,674 in 2011 but paid a lower tax rate the president's secretary, who made less than $100,000, the White House confirmed Friday.
The Obamas paid an effective rate of 20.5 percent. White House aides would not reveal presidential secretary Anita Breckenridge's tax rate but confirmed it was higher than the first family's rate. Breckenridge earned $95,000 last year.





Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/04/13/president-obama-paid-lower-tax-rate-than-his-secretary/#ixzz1rxRUyiQl
 
Why I just can't support republicans:





Our new report shows that House Budget Committee Chairman Paul Ryan’s tax plan would provide $265,000-a-year tax cuts to the nation’s highest-income households. Here’s an excerpt:
Even as House Budget Committee Chairman Paul Ryan’s budget would impose trillions of dollars in spending cuts, 62 percent of which would come from low-income programs, it would enact new tax cuts that would provide huge windfalls to households at the top of the income scale. New analysis by the Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center (TPC) finds that people earning more than $1 million a year would receive $265,000 apiece in new tax cuts, on average, on top of the $129,000 they would receive from the Ryan budget’s extension of President Bush’s tax cuts. . . .
3-28-12tax-f1-blog.jpg

Underscoring how tilted the proposal is toward the top, the TPC figures show that people making more than $1 million a year would receive 37 percent of the new Ryan tax cuts even though they constitute less than one-half of one percent of U.S. households (see graph).


















http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3733


Top 1% own 38.1%
Top 96-99% own 21.3%
Top 90-95% own 11.5%
And it gets much uglier as you proceed downward. Bottom 40% of population has 0.2% of all wealth.


http://www.dailypaul.com/111232/us-wealth-distribution-10-of-us-citizens-own-709-of-all-us-assets
 
Why I just can't support republicans:





Our new report shows that House Budget Committee Chairman Paul Ryan's tax plan would provide $265,000-a-year tax cuts to the nation's highest-income households. Here's an excerpt:
Even as House Budget Committee Chairman Paul Ryan's budget would impose trillions of dollars in spending cuts, 62 percent of which would come from low-income programs, it would enact new tax cuts that would provide huge windfalls to households at the top of the income scale. New analysis by the Urban-Brookings Tax Policy Center (TPC) finds that people earning more than $1 million a year would receive $265,000 apiece in new tax cuts, on average, on top of the $129,000 they would receive from the Ryan budget's extension of President Bush's tax cuts. . . .
3-28-12tax-f1-blog.jpg

Underscoring how tilted the proposal is toward the top, the TPC figures show that people making more than $1 million a year would receive 37 percent of the new Ryan tax cuts even though they constitute less than one-half of one percent of U.S. households (see graph).


















http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3733


Top 1% own 38.1%
Top 96-99% own 21.3%
Top 90-95% own 11.5%
And it gets much uglier as you proceed downward. Bottom 40% of population has 0.2% of all wealth.


http://www.dailypaul.com/111232/us-wealth-distribution-10-of-us-citizens-own-709-of-all-us-assets

I'm 80% certain that if you vote for Romney the end result will be a tax compromise similar to Simpson-Bowles. This means it is a Republican President that will, in the end, adapt the recommendations of Obama's own commission. Ironic isn't it?
 
By Voting for Romney you are getting the slightly more conservative version of Bill Clinton. I emphasize the word "slightly."

We need a person as President who can get things done in terms of Fiscal responsibility. The time has long past to get rid of the left wing radicals and bring back the type of President who can restore America's greatness.
This can only happen if we get our house in order in terms of debt/spending.
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
By Voting for Romney you are getting the slightly more conservative version of Bill Clinton. I emphasize the word "slightly."

We need a person as President who can get things done in terms of Fiscal responsibility. The time has long past to get rid of the left wing radicals and bring back the type of President who can restore America's greatness.
This can only happen if we get our house in order in terms of debt/spending.

Agreed, but all I hear from the republican side is trickle down theory which is rich talk for "Let us get rich and we will give you a job." Frankly I'm not impressed with either side, but I don't see Romney addressing the wealth gap. America can't prosper when the bottom 20% earn .1% of the wealth.
 
Agreed, but all I hear from the republican side is trickle down theory which is rich talk for "Let us get rich and we will give you a job." Frankly I'm not impressed with either side, but I don't see Romney addressing the wealth gap. America can't prosper when the bottom 20% earn .1% of the wealth.

Romney must win the nomination before becoming the slightly right of center guy he has always been.

As for the wealth gap the key to that is education and opportunity. I don't see how massive tax hikes, govt. regulation and strict environmental policies at the expense of the poor helps to create wealth. IMHO, those types of things only make the poor even poorer.
 
We will see where Romney winds up once he clenches the nomination, which should be really soon. Agreed that education and opportunity is the best way to address the wealth gap. Obama has always been a huge proponent of higher education, both formal and trade schools. As for opportunity I question how much there really can be in a society when the top 10% hold such a massive amount of wealth which is comprised of land, investments, and industry. It doesn't leave much room for the other 90%
 
As for the wealth gap the key to that is education and opportunity. I don't see how massive tax hikes, govt. regulation and strict environmental policies at the expense of the poor helps to create wealth. IMHO, those types of things only make the poor even poorer.

Could you possibly be any more disingenuous? At least admit that you're in favor of policies that will keep people like you rich and the "lazy, good for nothing welfare recipients" poor.

You're against federal funding of public education. This means that upper-middle class and rich folks will continue to send their kids to private schools whereas poor people who can't afford to drive their kids to a charter school will be stuck with whatever underfunded public school they can get.

You're against government handouts for student loans. Poor people are supposed to be able to pay for college how?

You're against single-payer healthcare systems. 60% of bankruptcies are due to medical bills. Even worse, over 3/4 of these people had health insurance

You're against social security and medicare. The poverty rate for seniors was 30-40% before these programs were implemented.

You're against affirmative action even though white families still have 10-20 times the average housewealth of black families. Even worse, you probably attribute this statistic to some aspect of black culture instead of acknowledging that 100+ years of jim crow can have pervasive, insidious effects that last for generations.

You're against government stimulus for infrastructure which creates tons of skilled and unskilled labor jobs for people who need work now.

You're against government regulation of finance which would entail being against Glass Steagall, SarbOx, Dodd Frank etc. US families lost $11 trillion in wealth in 2008 due in part to deregulation. Romney et al's portfolios have mostly recovered by now. Middle class people lost their IRAs and their homes.

And how do strict environmental policies affect poor people other than making their air and water safer? Saying that regulation causes net job loss is nothing more speculation unless you've got some numbers to back that up

http://pdf.wri.org/jobscompetitivenessenvironment_bw.pdf

A parallel debate revolves around the effect of environmental regulations on the employment rate. Business spokesmen frequently argue that stricter environmental standards will force them to close down factories or move them overseas. Restrictions on natural resource use, such as limits on timber harvesting on public lands, are attacked because they reduce employment along with production. Labor unionists also fear job losses if environmental regulations raise
production costs or restrict supply. Many economists subscribe to a more sophisticated version of this argument, pointing out that diverting capital to invest in pollution-control equipment instead of capacity expansion or productivity improvement also limits the growth of output and employment over time.

The usual riposte is that environmental protection actually creates more jobs than are lost: limits
put on the extraction of natural resources may threaten jobs in extractive industries, but will save or create jobs in recreation industries and in footloose high-tech industries attracted to a high-quality environment. Environmental regulations that require pollution abatement or raise energy prices create jobs in industries supplying pollution-control or energy-conservation equipment and services. Since these industries are more labor-intensive than the heavily polluting industries (e.g., energy supply, basic metals, and chemicals) it is argued that greater expenditures on environmental protection will create jobs on balance, even if it's at the expense of employment in the polluting sectors.
 
Last edited:
Some food for thought....

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics...cant-nominate-a-reliable-conservative/255765/

5 Reasons Why the GOP Can't Nominate a Reliable Conservative
by Conor Friedersdorf

For more than 20 years they've been searching for another Ronald Reagan. Electing one will take more than better politicking.


Reuters

Over at The American Spectator Jim Antle attempts to answer a question that is plaguing right-leaning politicos: How can conservatives overcome their losing record in Republican primaries? "Movement conservatives have captured the Republican nomination during a competitive primary process only twice: Barry Goldwater in 1964 and Ronald Reagan in 1980. After Reagan won two terms as president -- by landslide margins both times -- many assumed the conservative takeover of the GOP was complete," he writes. "These assumptions proved ill founded." As he sees it, this is partly because " a divided conservative vote spells doom for a conservative insurgent." Perhaps he's right. As Election 2000 showed, however, a unified conservative vote hardly guarantees that a reliably conservative politician is going to win the presidency.

Daniel Larison and Ross Douthat add canny analysis of their own. But the GOP requires a lot more than a genuinely conservative candidate and a political strategy that avoids intra-movement divisions if it hopes to put a modern Ronald Reagan equivalent into the White House.

Other obstacles include the following:

1) Conservatives aren't very good at gauging the conservatism of GOP candidates. Asked whether Sarah Palin or Jon Huntsman has a more conservative governing record, for example, a lot of Republican voters would give the former Alaska governor the edge; a lot of southern conservatives somehow persuaded themselves that Newt Gingrich was the right conservative champion; and in 2000 the whole conservative movement rallied enthusiastically behind George W. Bush. It cannot be emphasized enough: cultural cues matter more than governing record. And it's easy to fake cultural cues. The conservative base needs to rethink how it chooses its champions.

2) Many of the problems President Reagan was elected to solve are no longer with us. The hostage crisis ended. The Soviet Union was defeated. Inflation was whipped. Welfare was reformed. Tax rates are lower now than they were then, and even most Democrats agree that they should stay at post-Bush tax cut levels for all but the highest earners. Various industries have been deregulated. Given Reagan's outsized popularity and unique charisma, there is little reason to think the agenda items at which he failed -- shrinking the size of the federal government, reducing deficits -- are going to be easily accomplished by a conservative politician today, even if one manages to win a presidential election. But these are the things that conservatives say that they care about. And while I buy their critique and stated priorities, I have no confidence in their ability to craft sound policy responses or to persuade moderate voters of their virtues.

3) George W. Bush's presidency and the ongoing success neo-conservatives have had influencing the right's foreign policy have helped destroy the advantage the right once enjoyed on the subject. The result is that even as conservatives have persuaded many Americans that the War on Terrorism is an existential struggle, sort of like the Cold War, a growing number of conservative voters think the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, the primary conservative response to global terrorism, were either egregiously mismanaged or entirely mistaken enterprises. Meanwhile, President Obama has broken the promises he made to his supporters and adopted almost all of the politically popular parts of the Bush-Cheney approach to fighting terrorism -- and demonstrated that he can successfully target and kill terrorists basically anywhere.

4) The field of what Republican voters take to be earnest conservative insurgents is likely to keep swelling with Donald Trumps and Herman Cains and maybe even Stephen Colberts in the future due to the quirks of the market for political infotainment, wherein someone can use presidential contests to build their brand and monetize it in the television, radio, or publishing industry.

5) The activism undertaken by the grassroots right is often weirdly disconnected from what conservatives say are their biggest priorities. Andrew Breitbart and the causes taken up by his associates and the sites he left behind when he died are good examples. For weeks on end, a lot of conservatives were obsessing over subjects including a) ACORN b) the possibility of racism at the NAACP c) an obscure settlement between the USDA and black farmers d) whether or not Census workers were earning their pay; e) voter fraud f) the New Black Panthers. To what end?

President Reagan's election was an anomaly. He's the only conservative insurgent in modern times to win a Republican primary and the White House, and he spent years prior to that election honing a coherent philosophy, policy knowledge, persuasive skills, and a winning message. Having done so, he squared off against an opponent, Jimmy Carter, who'd lost substantial support even in his own party. Today, would be Reagans with less charisma, less executive experience and less time spent honing their thinking and communication skills are somehow expecting to succeed even as they operate in a less advantageous political environment. Of course it isn't happening. And it's no wonder conservatives are divided in who they support. Better to start addressing the underlying causes of division than recommend earlier consensus on the flawed pols on offer. An unqualified conservative is of less use to the right than a moderate.
 
The problem with most conservitives is they come off seeming ignorant and foolish.

They need to learn how to not channel so many third rails and articulate their points of views without insulting and demeaning voters. They have great ideas (i'm a fiscal conservative) that have great appeal but they need to work on not letting idiots like Beck, Palin, Bill O'rielly, Sean Hannity, Ingrum, Rush, Coulter, Malkin, etc. etc. etc. from dominating the conversation and saying extreme & controversial thing all the time. And stay away from social issues!

They need more people like Paul Ryan.

That will give them their best chance. I dont see it happening though because there is WAY too much money in right wing media.
 
You're against federal funding of public education.

The problem is your throw-more-money-at-it approach is a loser from the get go. We basically spend more than every other country on education already, the results suck, and you think the answer is more government debt. Tell us exactly how much more money needs to be blown on a terrible public education system that would make you happy?

http://mat.usc.edu/u-s-education-versus-the-world-infographic/
 
Last edited:
You're against government stimulus for infrastructure.

There you go again with the misguided belief that anything government is stimulus. While infrastructure spending is needed, it needs to be spent with the idea that any invested money has to have positive returns greater than the amount spent plus interest. It never should be spent to "create jobs." It never is a stimulus. Has 32 years of massive government debt spending not taught you this yet?
 
Could you possibly be any more disingenuous? At least admit that you're in favor of policies that will keep people like you rich and the "lazy, good for nothing welfare recipients" poor.

You're against federal funding of public education. This means that upper-middle class and rich folks will continue to send their kids to private schools whereas poor people who can't afford to drive their kids to a charter school will be stuck with whatever underfunded public school they can get.

You're against government handouts for student loans. Poor people are supposed to be able to pay for college how?

You're against single-payer healthcare systems. 60% of bankruptcies are due to medical bills. Even worse, over 3/4 of these people had health insurance

You're against social security and medicare. The poverty rate for seniors was 30-40% before these programs were implemented.

You're against affirmative action even though white families still have 10-20 times the average housewealth of black families. Even worse, you probably attribute this statistic to some aspect of black culture instead of acknowledging that 100+ years of jim crow can have pervasive, insidious effects that last for generations.

You're against government stimulus for infrastructure which creates tons of skilled and unskilled labor jobs for people who need work now.

You're against government regulation of finance which would entail being against Glass Steagall, SarbOx, Dodd Frank etc. US families lost $11 trillion in wealth in 2008 due in part to deregulation. Romney et al's portfolios have mostly recovered by now. Middle class people lost their IRAs and their homes.

And how do strict environmental policies affect poor people other than making their air and water safer? Saying that regulation causes net job loss is nothing more speculation unless you've got some numbers to back that up

What government program aren't you for? Why not just have government takeover of everything and have a central planned economy? Those government run socialist and communist economies with 0% unemployment and national healthcare have worked outstandingly well around the world, right? I think you're on to something here.

An economy is only what it produces. Giving someone a government check to do a minimally productive "job," while possibly lowering unemployment, makes the country less productive, poorer, and worse off. The sooner you understand this most basic of principles the sooner you'll get off your government everything kick.
 
Agreed, but all I hear from the republican side is trickle down theory which is rich talk for "Let us get rich and we will give you a job." Frankly I'm not impressed with either side, but I don't see Romney addressing the wealth gap. America can't prosper when the bottom 20% earn .1% of the wealth.

Nor can it prosper with the top 1% paying the bulk of the taxes and the bottom half paying nothing at all.
 
Nor can it prosper with the top 1% paying the bulk of the taxes and the bottom half paying nothing at all.

I don't know about you, but I'd still prefer to earn $500,000 and pay $250,000 in taxes than earn $25,000 and pay none.
 
Some food for thought....

I do understand your position and the view you take on the role of govt. in the USA. I simply take the opposite viewpoint that govt. should be limited and restricted in its activities. I believe this is the view the Founders had when they wrote the U.S. Constitution: Limited Federal Power.

I do not have an issue with the State govts. addressing some of the issues listed in your previous post. But, as a society we are better off with smaller, more limited govt. That said, there should be safety net for the poorest citizens among us.

I'm not against education or student loans; I'm against the Federal govt. playing the primary role in funding and administering these programs. The private sector or State govts. should be in charge of these programs.

Even the Post Office has become a dinosaur compared to Fed-Ex and UPS. Why is that? Why does the Federally run U.S. postal service face huge defecits while the privately run Fed-Ex and UPS earn big profits?

Govt. should stick to to national defense, major highways/bridges, Interstate commerce regulation, etc. and leave the rest to the States.

Vector2, the person you want as President is in the White House already. He shares your view of role of the Federal govt. Liberals like Obama and you want to Fundamentally Transform America into a Socialistic European style democracy.
 
Advertisement - Members don't see this ad
I don't know about you, but I'd still prefer to earn $500,000 and pay $250,000 in taxes than earn $25,000 and pay none.

Spoken like someone who has never paid taxes.

How much is a reasonable amount for the government to take of your hard-earned income?
 
Spoken like someone who has never paid taxes.

How much is a reasonable amount for the government to take of your hard-earned income?

Of course I've paid taxes, and at a higher rate than Mitt Romney. We all need to pay our fair share, especially if you care about the debt.

And frankly, those who earn more can afford to pay a greater percentage (not just a greater amount).

The problem with our tax structure right now is that it hits physician income levels the hardest while giving huge breaks to those earning much more. You should worry less about bottom 40% paying no income taxes (they still pay a large percentage of their income in the form of sales tax, etc) and worry more about those sitting on fortunes collecting millions or billions in capital gains without paying their fair share (assuming its even reported and not in a tax haven).

I don't think their should be a top tax bracket - we should have a continuously increasing tax rate where every additional dollar is worth a bit less than the one before it and someone earning $1 billion pays a greater percentage than someone earning $1 million who in turn pays a greater percentage than someone earning $100k.

All of the benefits of a flat tax could just as easily apply to a simplified progressive tax structure.
 
Of course I've paid taxes, and at a higher rate than Mitt Romney. We all need to pay our fair share, especially if you care about the debt.

And frankly, those who earn more can afford to pay a greater percentage (not just a greater amount).

The problem with our tax structure right now is that it hits physician income levels the hardest while giving huge breaks to those earning much more. You should worry less about bottom 40% paying no income taxes (they still pay a large percentage of their income in the form of sales tax, etc) and worry more about those sitting on fortunes collecting millions or billions in capital gains without paying their fair share (assuming its even reported and not in a tax haven).

I don't think their should be a top tax bracket - we should have a continuously increasing tax rate where every additional dollar is worth a bit less than the one before it and someone earning $1 billion pays a greater percentage than someone earning $1 million who in turn pays a greater percentage than someone earning $100k.

All of the benefits of a flat tax could just as easily apply to a simplified progressive tax structure.

The difference between me and you is that I believe it's MY money, and you believe it belongs to the government and they allow us to keep what they think we need. And of course you believe government is the answer, whereas I believe it's the problem.

Of course you realize that if we tax ALL the income above $250k at 100%, we still don't cover the deficit. We are not under taxed. We spend way too damn much. It's very simple economics, but unfortunately neither economics (or apparently constitutional law) are the forte' of the inhabitant of the White House. I get so friggin tired of hearing about how the "rich" should pay "their fair share" when they're already paying the vast majority of taxes already. How is that fair when half the country pays NOTHING in federal taxes?

And BTW - your sales tax argument is pointless. Sales taxes go to state and local governments - none of it goes to the federal side. The Fair Tax, a flat tax, or even Cain's 9-9-9 plan would be far preferable to the mess we have now.
 
The difference between me and you is that I believe it's MY money, and you believe it belongs to the government and they allow us to keep what they think we need.

It is absolutely, without any question, the government's money.

I dunno about you, but none of the bills in my wallet have my name printed on them.

Perhaps you can arrange through your employer/patients/whomever to be paid in goods or gold and can then turn around and consume and barter as needed to live.

I prefer to pay to be part of the country's currency system, it's just easier that way.