The future of dentistry

[ongerie]

Just saw this post from a while back on didn't see any responses to it. As someone new to the field this was a bit intimidating so I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

"I'm a dentist that graduated 18 years ago. Sounds like you're a smart kid and I'm sure what ever path you choose you will be very successful. Dental school right now it's a rip off. Paying $500K for a dental education is financial suicide. Dental insurance companies are killing the dental industry. Dental insurance been reimbursing lower and lower fees. Dental salary has gone down every year for the past 20 years. All other careers, salaries have gone way up. It's only going to get worse. There are states now passing laws to allow dental therapist to practice minor dental dentistry. They are cheap labor that will compete with general dentists for their jobs. That will further suppress our salaries. It's really sad...If I'm in your shoes right now, I would choose the tech industry. Look at dentist with 10 years experience. Their salary is around $160-180K. That salary is about the same as new dentists. Dental salary doesn't go up with time. Look at computer engineer. You can go to a coding bootcamp and get a coding certificate. Then apply to google and they will start you off at $120K. The kicker is that you get stock options. That stock option can boost your salary to $200K a year. That's insane. I know people deciding on what career to go into is to look at "Starting salary". But you are only at that "Starting Salary" stage for the first couple years. You have to look at 10 years down the line. Your lifetime money earned, the bulk of your money is from 10 to 30 years into your career. You look at computer engineer with 10-15 years of experience, their avg salaries' are $400K-600K! Go look it up. There are websites that posts real salaries.
Right now we have politicians crying foul, pointing that dentistry cost are too high and too many poor people are not getting proper dental care. We will see more and more states passing Dental Therapist laws to allow them to practice dentistry. Dentists are getting screwed left and right. It's just sad.
Do not go into dentistry."

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[dent222hasdf]

I think that is from this dentist on here who just hates his life lol. I've seen him post a lot about how much he hates being a dentist and telling everyone else to stay away... I wouldn't listen to him. I have shadowed dentists that vary from 20 years in the field to 3 years in the field and they are very happy and encouraging.

 

[yosemite2422]

Every student who majors in CS will undoubtedly hear about earning high six-figure salaries. You have to ask yourself whether it's realistic for everyone to earn close to this much. Also, just finish bootcamp and just get started at Google? Think about that for a second. They aren't exactly handing out jobs. Even so, he's not wrong. It is far easier to make money as a programmer. It seems like his main concerns are money and how other factors may threaten the flow of that money. No mention of clinical aspect or patient care whatsoever. Sounds like he went into dentistry for the wrong reasons.

 

[Bigjt1420]

Let’s just say that dentistry, while not being as great as it once was, is in a MUCH better position than 90% of the jobs out there. This dentist should go over to the Pre-Pharm or Pre-Optometry forums and take a look at the chaos. This guy is worried about dentistry? What about fast food places hiring robots to flip burgers? Or truckers and the future of autonomous driving? What about CPA’s and seeing TurboTax start treading on their clients? Look I’m not saying dentistry is the best thing ever, nor is it worth it for $400K+ in debt, but if you can somehow manage to get the degree for under $250K — I mean to me it’s worth it. We earn a high income and robots will not have the dexterity to treat or the ability to diagnose like we will for AT LEAST another 30 years. That’s my entire career and then I’m out hanging by the beach drinking a Mai Tai

 

[sobertiger]

Probably not the best place to ask this. I would try FB groups like dental nachos and dental disrupt nation.

 

[Rvting]

I dont know much about being a dentist but I can say that generally, everything across the board seems to be paying less while costs are going up.

Median yearly pay 2020 is 164,010$ Dentists : Occupational Outlook Handbook: : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics
Median yearly pay 2012 is 146,920$= but after inflation $165,616 in 2020 Dentists : Occupational Outlook Handbook : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

meanwhile it doesn't take a genius to realize dental school cost has skyrocketed. Overall, pay still seems good just gonna have to be in debt longer

Edit: got my years wrong- median pay in 2010 is 146,920$= but after inflation 174,379.57$

 

[1futuredentist]

Also........

Median computer programer salary with a bachelor's degree (read: 4 years of college) is 90K, and Computer scientist with a Master's degree (read: 6 years of college) is 127K ----- and I am not sure this is not straight out of college salaries.

Source:

Computer and Information Technology Occupations : Occupational Outlook Handbook: : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

www.bls.gov

Are there Google and Facebook engineers that make more than dentists? yes
Are there Dentists that make more than an average Facebook and Google worker - much more so yes.

Can you become a Facebook or Google engineer by not going to college and just attending a programming Bootcamp? I don't think so.. Maybe 1 out of 1000 (and that too by lying on the resume and "cracking" the interview)

 

[rishi3]

The doctor I work for clears six figures... per month. Of course it is a needle in the haystack, but if you have an entrepreneurial spirit you can usually earn 300k+ annually. Even associates can earn 200k+ if they are strategic with CE and job location

 

[2TH MVR]

The doctor I work for clears six figures... per month. Of course it is a needle in the haystack, but if you have an entrepreneurial spirit you can usually earn 300k+ annually. Even associates can earn 200k+ if they are strategic with CE and job loI

Does entrepreneurial spirit really describe the majority of young people who enter a career in dentistry nowadays? I could be wrong, but I characterize most working towards a career in dentistry as:

1. wanting to be in the health care field to help patients
2. earn a better than average income
3. and at some point .... have the ability to own a private practice. Be your own boss.

I think most going into dentistry just "assume" they will make doctor money and everything will be fine.

 

[Rvting]

Does entrepreneurial spirit really describe the majority of young people who enter a career in dentistry nowadays? I could be wrong, but I characterize most working towards a career in dentistry as:

1. wanting to be in the health care field to help patients
2. earn a better than average income
3. and at some point .... have the ability to own a private practice. Be your own boss.

I think most going into dentistry just "assume" they will make doctor money and everything will be fine.

Honestly, this can't be more true. Especially as university can cause severe mental health issues; coming out as 'entrepreneurial' can be a big ask for people. However, it is under my impression that dental schools do thoroughly teach students on how to operate a practice.

 

[PerioDont]

Honestly, this can't be more true. Especially as university can cause severe mental health issues; coming out as 'entrepreneurial' can be a big ask for people. However, it is under my impression that dental schools do thoroughly teach students on how to operate a practice.

your impression would not be correct.

most dental schools do not teach anything of substance regarding this.

I agree with @2TH MVR most people in DS are not entrepreneurial. maybe a handful of people in my class even considered opening a practice in the future, many wanted to be lifelong associates.

That is not a feasible plan with 300k+ of student loans.

Just saw this post from a while back on didn't see any responses to it. As someone new to the field this was a bit intimidating so I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

"I'm a dentist that graduated 18 years ago. Sounds like you're a smart kid and I'm sure what ever path you choose you will be very successful. Dental school right now it's a rip off. Paying $500K for a dental education is financial suicide. Dental insurance companies are killing the dental industry. Dental insurance been reimbursing lower and lower fees. Dental salary has gone down every year for the past 20 years. All other careers, salaries have gone way up. It's only going to get worse. There are states now passing laws to allow dental therapist to practice minor dental dentistry. They are cheap labor that will compete with general dentists for their jobs. That will further suppress our salaries. It's really sad...If I'm in your shoes right now, I would choose the tech industry. Look at dentist with 10 years experience. Their salary is around $160-180K. That salary is about the same as new dentists. Dental salary doesn't go up with time. Look at computer engineer. You can go to a coding bootcamp and get a coding certificate. Then apply to google and they will start you off at $120K. The kicker is that you get stock options. That stock option can boost your salary to $200K a year. That's insane. I know people deciding on what career to go into is to look at "Starting salary". But you are only at that "Starting Salary" stage for the first couple years. You have to look at 10 years down the line. Your lifetime money earned, the bulk of your money is from 10 to 30 years into your career. You look at computer engineer with 10-15 years of experience, their avg salaries' are $400K-600K! Go look it up. There are websites that posts real salaries.
Right now we have politicians crying foul, pointing that dentistry cost are too high and too many poor people are not getting proper dental care. We will see more and more states passing Dental Therapist laws to allow them to practice dentistry. Dentists are getting screwed left and right. It's just sad.
Do not go into dentistry."

I agree that 500k for DS is not a wise decision for the vast majority of people

 

[rishi3]

Does entrepreneurial spirit really describe the majority of young people who enter a career in dentistry nowadays? I could be wrong, but I characterize most working towards a career in dentistry as:

1. wanting to be in the health care field to help patients
2. earn a better than average income
3. and at some point .... have the ability to own a private practice. Be your own boss.

I think most going into dentistry just "assume" they will make doctor money and everything will be fine

You have got to know what you are getting yourself into. The cost of dental school is usually worth it, but if you don't want to be a business owner and like living in sunny southern california, you might not be so financially happy with a dental career. As with any career, if you do not look ahead and figure what you want to be doing 10 or 20 years down the line, then you may be surprised.
Being an entrepreneur is not the only way, of course, but if your goal is over 250k then it is probably your best bet.

 

[Dentinator]

If your getting into the field for the money you prob won’t be dissatisfied. However you should be getting into it for the patients. Plus the salary can vary from where you live to what you do, and job security is permanent. There are many different ways you can pay off that debt, and dental school is not going to get any cheaper. I have professors (in dental school now, where I will be about half a mil or a little more in debt when I get out) who say the same thing, but they only paid like 50k for all four years. I pay that a quarter.
Look at it this way, it’s not a get rich quick scheme, it’s a way other life that will eventually grant you returns as king as you play with your money wisely.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

I have professors (in dental school now, where I will be about half a mil or a little more in debt when I get out) who say the same thing, but they only paid like 50k for all four years.

Educational debt for graduating dental students increased 233% between 1990 and 2017 when adjusted for inflation. Your professors have no idea about what you're going to experience managing your educational debt.

For students owing $500,000, they will have to earn $45,000/year just to cover the interest on their loans. If they aren't paying at least $35,000/year to cover the interest, their loan balance will actually grow.

Big Hoss

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

For students owing $500,000, they will have to earn $45,000/year just to cover the interest on their loans. If they aren't paying at least $35,000/year to cover the interest, their loan balance will actually grow.

Wait a minute, Big Hoss. You said I would have to earn $45,000/year to cover my interest and that I need to pay $35,000 to cover my interest. What gives?! Are you bad at math or was this a typo? I bet the math section was your lowest section on the DAT.

Big Hoss

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Wait a minute, Big Hoss. You said I would have to earn $45,000/year to cover my interest and that I need to pay $35,000 to cover my interest. What gives?! Are you bad at math or was this a typo?

Oh young one, you are forgetting about taxes. Uncle Sam will take his cut BEFORE you get yours. You can only deduct something miniscule like $2,500 for student loan interest on your taxes. So, essentially you will be paying your loans back with after tax money.

I bet the math section was your lowest section on the DAT.

Yes, it was.

Big Hoss

 

[GoDental101]

Educational debt for graduating dental students increased 233% between 1990 and 2017 when adjusted for inflation. Your professors have no idea about what you're going to experience managing your educational debt.

For students owing $500,000, they will have to earn $45,000/year just to cover the interest on their loans. If they aren't paying at least $35,000/year to cover the interest, their loan balance will actually grow.

Big Hoss

I think this is the biggest factor that pre-dents simply do not comprehend. If it was just paying back 500k then it would not be too bad, but it is paying off that 500k at 7% interest which makes it nearly impossible because even covering the accrued interest each year is a formidable task.

Personally, I am going to be finishing with about 180k of total debt including undergrad and I feel like paying back that amount is going to be a serious task and a decent burden. I can't even imagine what I would be thinking right now if I had 500k debt from dental school...oh wait I wouldn't. (be thinking that is)

And again it's not the total of 180k vs 500k that matters it's that the interest on my 180k is 13.5k the first year out whereas the interest on the 500k is 37.5k. So if I did an incredible feat of paying 4,000 a month (which is a huge chunk of income post tax for a new dentist), my debt after year one would either be 145.5k or 489.5k. On one hand the debt went down by 20% of the total after that year of huge effort paying 4k per month. On the other hand that huge effort of 4k per month brought the debt down by 2% of the total.

If you can't see where this is going then you will probably end up going 500k in debt for dental school and hope the government will bail you out (which they won't, there are much bigger problems in the US than saving the "poor" dentists, but they might say they will to get your vote) If you can see how hard the above situation would be then you would be prudent not to accumulate that type of debt on your path to getting into a career.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

However, it is under my impression that dental schools do thoroughly teach students on how to operate a practice.

This is so far from the truth it is almost laughable.

Big Hoss

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

The doctor I work for clears six figures... per month.

Just like every predent on SDN will!

Big Hoss

 

[deleted903013]

I think this is the biggest factor that pre-dents simply do not comprehend. If it was just paying back 500k then it would not be too bad, but it is paying off that 500k at 7% interest which makes it nearly impossible because even covering the accrued interest each year is a formidable task.

Personally, I am going to be finishing with about 180k of total debt including undergrad and I feel like paying back that amount is going to be a serious task and a decent burden. I can't even imagine what I would be thinking right now if I had 500k debt from dental school...oh wait I wouldn't. (be thinking that is)

And again it's not the total of 180k vs 500k that matters it's that the interest on my 180k is 13.5k the first year out whereas the interest on the 500k is 37.5k. So if I did an incredible feat of paying 4,000 a month (which is a huge chunk of income post tax for a new dentist), my debt after year one would either be 145.5k or 489.5k. On one hand the debt went down by 20% of the total after that year of huge effort paying 4k per month. On the other hand that huge effort of 4k per month brought the debt down by 2% of the total.

If you can't see where this is going then you will probably end up going 500k in debt for dental school and hope the government will bail you out (which they won't, there are much bigger problems in the US than saving the "poor" dentists, but they might say they will to get your vote) If you can see how hard the above situation would be then you would be prudent not to accumulate that type of debt on your path to getting into a career.

I'm also leaving with 180k in debt and that terrifies me. Leaving with 500k I'm not sure I could sleep at night. Most of your loan payments are going towards the interest alone and hardly even touch the principle like you said. The issue is older dentists simply didn't have to deal with the debt we deal with and don't warn pre dents. One of my faculty who is in his 70s left with like 20k or something low like that. Insane. My current dentist who is in his 40s left with under 100k. Pre dents shadow these older successful dentists and assume the same system is in place. The finances of current dentistry are completely different.

 

[Bigjt1420]

I'm also leaving with 180k in debt and that terrifies me. Leaving with 500k I'm not sure I could sleep at night. Most of your loan payments are going towards the interest alone and hardly even touch the principle like you said. The issue is older dentists simply didn't have to deal with the debt we deal with and don't warn pre dents. One of my faculty who is in his 70s left with like 20k or something low like that. Insane. My current dentist who is in his 40s left with under 100k. Pre dents shadow these older successful dentists and assume the same system is in place. The finances of current dentistry are completely different.

Don’t be terrified of the $180K, that’s absolutely manageable. You did a great job getting out with minimal debt — you’ll definitely be able to pay it off. My girlfriend graduated as a veterinarian a few years back with $200K in debt and she’s all paid off now.

Live frugally and be smart with your money and it’ll be okay. Like the above commenters have said, it’s only when you get into those higher debts with the 7% interest rate where it’s scary and basically impossible to get out of. Good job and good luck in the future!

 

[deleted903013]

Don’t be terrified of the $180K, that’s absolutely manageable. You did a great job getting out with minimal debt — you’ll definitely be able to pay it off. My girlfriend graduated as a veterinarian a few years back with $200K in debt and she’s all paid off now.

Live frugally and be smart with your money and it’ll be okay. Like the above commenters have said, it’s only when you get into those higher debts with the 7% interest rate where it’s scary and basically impossible to get out of. Good job and good luck in the future!

Thanks for the kind words!

 

[Life of Pablo]

Don’t have time to read all the other posts, but if you’re going to take out 500k+ in loans and make the average dentist salary, it’s probably not worth it.

 

[askadds]

-keep in mind the dental school loans accumulate interest the day they are dispersed, not when you graduate so when you finish the loan amount is way higher than when you took the loans (6.8% from day one)
-none of the interest is deductible assuming your salary is over 85k
-only a few people will come out making over 144k, the rest are right at 120k and barely living - i know it sounds ridiculous but once you have lived that life as a dentist, you will understand.
-then go build a practice which is north of 500k these days or buy one which is around 500k for a decent one worth paying for
-so where are we at now? 1 million and you have not put a dent on any of the loans and the interest is still adding up?
-then go buy a house and add minimum another 500k
-so where are we now? in your mid 30s, over 1.5 million in loans and interest is just adding up
-bust your ass and put a dent by the time you're in your late 40s and its been a hard hard hard journey getting there, how many more years of back breaking dentistry to do you have in you? ever wonder why dentist work till the last day? think about it, no one works for fun, they still need the money because instead of putting away for retirement this entire time, they been paying their loans off. well the practice is worth something towards retirement, yes but only about 65% of what you collect so if you have a fantastic 1 million dollar office at the end, you will get only 650k after tax, is that enough to retire? LOL no way

-easy solution, make more money right? well ever since I graduated 10 years ago, Delta Dental which is the biggest insurance carrier has not raise their fee schedule. good luck trying to make more money to compensate for inflation, interest payments and all these loans
-also keep in mind that when you look at average incomes for dentists, it is what it is. you'll quickly realize that a few of you will be above and few below and everyone else right at the median....its like the gunners in undergrad that eventually go to dental school and realize they are just average amongst all the other smart people that got in. then all these supper smart people graduate dental schools and think they are not going to be average? rinse and repeat

-solution?
1) protest, fight and get the school tuition down from the top, changes need to be made to the system
2) change the dental insurance scam

Dentistry has given me more money than I expected and I've been lucky and I am grateful because I happen to fall into a good situation. Will everyone graduating be lucky like I was? No. I see it all around me. Take it with a grain of salt and listen to people who have lived it and are scared of what the new generation has to face.

Now I know, a lot of you will be like he is miserable etc etc but its the truth.

Should you become a dentist? Yes become a dentist but understand the challenges that you will face and plan on having all your colleagues on the same page, you guys must change the system and re-create the magic of dentistry.

 

[allDAT]

There’s more truth in the quote the op posted than there is a disgruntled dentist.

I graduated in 2015. Talk to younger dentists. I would not advise anyone to spend half a million dollars in 2022 to become a dentist. I used say that the max you should spend is 400k. Now I’d say it should top out around 350k after after all said and done (accrued interest capitalized, raised tuition, etc).

 

[askadds]

There’s more truth in the quote the op posted than there is a disgruntled dentist.

I graduated in 2015. Talk to younger dentists. I would not advise anyone to spend half a million dollars in 2022 to become a dentist. I used say that the max you should spend is 400k. Now I’d say it should top out around 350k after after all said and done (accrued interest capitalized, raised tuition, etc).

accrued interest is a killer. 500k = 2.8k PER MONTH of interest that's not tax deductible. The government and schools are running such a hustle, gotta love it.

 

[allDAT]

accrued interest is a killer. 500k = 2.8k PER MONTH of interest that's not tax deductible. The government and schools are running such a hustle, gotta love it.

Yea. The loss of subsided graduate loans was not well publicized and students were not warned. I had subsidized loans in 2011 (D1 year) the other 3 weren’t subsidized and added about 35k of unexpected costs.

Pre dents do not fully appreciate how significant the payment is on a few hundred thousand when 100% of the money used is from after tax income. It’s a huge burden as you support a family, a practice, and try and build a life for yourself.

In general, I agree that the schools are a huge scam. The quality of education provided for the price tag is laughable at best. It’s common knowledge among practicing dentists that dentists graduating lately without residency experience are basically unemployable. Quite sad.