The Future of Dentistry

[montag925]

hey guys,

Being an undergrad recently accepted to dental school, I am trying to get a grasp of how my profession will be by the time that I am ready to practice. The country is going into recession, I think that is agreed. I have always considered dentistry to be a very lucrative field. However, recent posts on here and discussions with family friends have got me worried. I saw a thread on here discussing how getting a job out of dental school in California is near impossible. In specific areas of the country, dental practices are closing. Having a few friends in the Pittsburgh area, they are saying that the job market for dentists is not what it used to be.
I am aware that the population of the country is getting older and that a good number of dentists are expected to retire in the near future, but I can't help worry about my job security. If this country were to go into a drastic recession, in 4 or 5 years, will dentistry be as nice as it is now? I am asking this not as a perspective pre-dental student, but rather as someone who will be attending dental school next year, and unless I make bad decisions in dental school, will be a dentist in a few years. Any thoughts or opinions would help. Thanks.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[DROCKINDAHOUSE]

As a prospective dental student I can't help but feel the same way. If only there were some business and economic forums...

From talking to the dentist I work for who has been in practice for over 20 years, as well as the handful of dentists I've shadowed, it seems that the general consensus was that the next 20 to 30 years in dentistry would be quite profitable. One dentist described this coming period as the "golden age" of dentistry. This though of course is based on the speculation of few business owners in one corner of Texas. I'm not sure how others across the state, or the country for that matter, would perceive this statement.

Of course, it goes without saying that dentistry is going to continue to be very lucrative in medically underserved areas throughout the country where competition is lower.

 

[Cold Front]

Of course, it goes without saying that dentistry is going to continue to be very lucrative in medically underserved areas throughout the country where competition is lower.

I agree.

- Average age of a dentist is 53 years old, about 20% of active dentists will retire in the next 10 years, while the US populations continues to increase, and fewer dentists are graduating to replace the growing deficit.
- Number of new dental school openings is currently 1 in every 3-4 years, which can't keep up with the demand, even if they doubled or tripled that number.
- Today, average private practice with one GP can produce about $1 mill, overhead is about 65% (do the math!). Specialists even more.
- People are living longer; fastest growing group are old people, who also happen to have the highest disposable incomes (i.e. they don't have the burdens younger people have, and they already filled up retirements and other investment holdings). Just look at TV and magazine ads, what audience do they target? This is an indicative of most lucrative demographic in our career. Did I mention that older people want to work longer than retirement age? The age wave alone makes dentistry a secure and profitable profession.
- Dentistry will get easier to do for dentists as technology in dental settings evolve, which could increase number of patients a dentist can see per day = more $$$.

 

[charlestweed]

- Today, average private practice with one GP can produce about $1 mill, overhead is about 65% (do the math!). Specialists even more.

Are you sure this is the average for 1 doctor office? 1mil/year = $83,333/month = $3787/day (assuming that you are working 22 days/month… no vacation). This means you have to cut at least 5-6 crown preps every day.

 

[219122]

^^ I think some of your production would also come from hygiene and recalls no?

 

[JamieMac]

I agree.

- Average age of a dentist is 53 years old, about 20% of active dentists will retire in the next 10 years, while the US populations continues to increase, and fewer dentists are graduating to replace the growing deficit.
- Number of new dental school openings is currently 1 in every 3-4 years, which can't keep up with the demand, even if they doubled or tripled that number.
- Today, average private practice with one GP can produce about $1 mill, overhead is about 65% (do the math!). Specialists even more.
- People are living longer; fastest growing group are old people, who also happen to have the highest disposable incomes (i.e. they don't have the burdens younger people have, and they already filled up retirements and other investment holdings). Just look at TV and magazine ads, what audience do they target? This is an indicative of most lucrative demographic in our career. Did I mention that older people want to work longer than retirement age? The age wave alone makes dentistry a secure and profitable profession.
- Dentistry will get easier to do for dentists as technology in dental settings evolve, which could increase number of patients a dentist can see per day = more $$$.

I'm currently a DS1, and I share the concerns of the OP. By the time we graduate, I believe that rural areas will continue to be more lucrative than urban areas, but finding areas of growth may be more difficult to locate. As you stated above...older people want to work longer than retirement age. I also believe that many dentists, who are retirement age now, may be required to work longer to offset the monetary losses of the last couple of years.

Does the average private practice actually produce $1M? That sounds pretty high. I doubt we will have difficulty making a good living, but the structure of revenues and expenses may be different than current levels. In other words, we may have to run much leaner practices in order to attain the level of income we previously expected (i.e. lower grossing practices with lower overhead, etc).

Personally, I think we might be heading for the 2nd great depression. Hopefully, I'm wrong...all we can do is work hard and weather the storm.

Good luck.

 

[Cold Front]

Are you sure this is the average for 1 doctor office? 1mil/year = $83,333/month = $3787/day (assuming that you are working 22 days/month… no vacation). This means you have to cut at least 5-6 crown preps every day.

There are a lot of surveys out there that discuss the production numbers for a GP private practice, the most recent one I have seen is the 2008 DE-Levin Group Practice Survey and was published in last month's Dental Economics magazine. I think $1mil is based on 1 GP ($600-700k) + 2 hygienists (about $300-350k combined), with average overhead of 57%. These are averages, a lot of dentists are above and below those figures. A recent graduate on DentalTown has a practice that produces $3.5 mil, but he has 2 associates + hygienists.

 

[Cold Front]

I'm currently a DS1, and I share the concerns of the OP. By the time we graduate, I believe that rural areas will continue to be more lucrative than urban areas, but finding areas of growth may be more difficult to locate. As you stated above...older people want to work longer than retirement age. I also believe that many dentists, who are retirement age now, may be required to work longer to offset the monetary losses of the last couple of years.

I see what you are saying, but when the economy recovers (maybe in the next couple of years), majority of dentists who were planning to retire will retire or work part-time (i.e. become consultants, teach CE courses, or what not). Besides, at that age, they will not be as productive as dentists in their 30's, 40's or 50's. So their plans of retirement will be in the form of doing less dentistry and other things, how many full time 60+ yr old dentists do you know?

Does the average private practice actually produce $1M? That sounds pretty high. I doubt we will have difficulty making a good living, but the structure of revenues and expenses may be different than current levels. In other words, we may have to run much leaner practices in order to attain the level of income we previously expected (i.e. lower grossing practices with lower overhead, etc).

See my previous post. As long as there is demand, there will be an opportunity to make money.

 

[MONKEYBOY]

My impression is that the only decrease in dentist income will result from non-dentist midlevel care providers gaining more permission to do procedures.

This decreases the 'practice turf' for every single dentist, and compromises (read: decreases) care quality for patients.

This is inevitable if more graduating dentists are not produced. The enormous numbers & rate of geezer dentists retiring will leave a void. Patients not being cared for will open holes that 'more hungry' midlevel providers will lobby to get practice rights to.

The popular scenario and analogy of this trend began in Alaska: resulting from dentists not taking care of patient demands.

As is often the case, when Uncle Sam starts making decisions about healthcare -- instead of doctors specializing in that area -- usually the band-aids that Uncle Sam comes up with are insufficient and permanent.

Encourage dentists to stick together and take care of patients. This is the way to minimize the invasiveness of non-dentists taking over and compromising care.

Just look at medical schools:
(1.) Insufficient rate of producing medical graduates.
(2.) Poor supply in underserved areas over many years.
(3.) They have red-taped themselves into a sort of casket!
Solution: Doctor of Nurse Practitioner making similar wages in much less education years. Yes, Doctor of Nurse Practitioner can practice independently with a sign out from that says "DOCTOR OFFICE."

This is the mechanism. Let us keep ahead of it.

 

[Rube]

My impression is that the only decrease in dentist income will result from non-dentist midlevel care providers gaining more permission to do procedures.

exactly. Its already started. the first class of mid levels will graduate from MN in 2013 and there will be like 100 of them. More states will start up programs and the ADA will fight to get some control and it should take 5 years from legislature to graduation so that delays this plague a little. I figure it will take 12-15 years before they are really everywhere but make no mistake that train has already left the station.

As far as Alaska it isn't that alaska dentists didn't care for native populations as much as the state is just so vast and there are no roads in 2/3 alaska so that dentists would actually have fly in in a prop airplane or live in the bush in 50 below winters to care for these populations. Truth be told, there are a gazillion vacancies in AK for dentists right now so the mid-level thing isn't working out like they promised it would... but that's all bull anyway...the point is it WILL work in the lower 48 and the insurance companies are huge supporters of it. They show up at all the legislative hearings to push for mid levels.

 

[Cold Front]

This is inevitable if more graduating dentists are not produced.

It's very tough to open new dental school(s); financially and administratively. Look at the last 5 new programs, they are all private institutions with high tuition, and have faculty crisis. So to produce new graduates you need to get around faculty recruitment and retention concerns first.

If schools offer competitive salaries to their faculty positions, more dentists would be willing to teach, more schools would open, more dentists would enter the profession, will keep the mid-level clowns hush-hush. But like everything else, there is a catch; very high tuition or some other significant funding to support this.

 

[desert rat]

Things have changed and will continue to change. We need to be real about this and not listen to the sales pitches about wealth and prosperity. Every time a person talks anbout making $$$ they are usually trying to sell their products or continuing education lectures.

12 years ago in Dental Economics the trend was practice management focuss. They were talking ways to make money. Technical things were trying to get dental offices to have a computor for their office management.

10 years ago things started to change because economy was getting better and now we saw implants, and ortho, and COSMETICS coming of age. We saw a new association getting popular (cosmetics), LVI became big time and so did Dorfman. Everyone was trying to be the cosmetic dentist because big money and it made you feel good. Tons of new CE providers charging big $$ for their knowledge (way over priced).

5 years ago people stared to push towards CEREC and also overseas labs. It hurt the lab profession in America and increased the amount of money made by CE providers. We saw dentists dolling out hundreds of thousands for lasers and CEREC to try and bring their level of care modern and also to gain the increase in $$$. At the same time each operatory was being equiped with computors and monitors, and digital XRAY.

Last year we started seeing continuing education starting to hurt. More dentists going to free lectures than wanting to pay $$$$. Cosmetics starting to take a back seat to bread and butter dentistry. A re-amergence of the dentures and partials being sought out. Dentists started hurting for $$$$. Alot of cosmetic practices had to re-invent themselves. Insurance free practices started taking insurance.

This year, look to see the western states dentists struggle as forclosures hit them. Many businesses are no longer offering dental insurance or people are losing insurance because of job loss. Gov. employees are losing jobs. Retirees are no longer sitting on large amounts of disposable income. Social Security is not keeping up with inflation. Dr.s that planned to retire keep working because their retirment plans lost too much income. Dr's work to keep up with the cost of medical insurance.

Consumers start going overseas more and more for their dental needs where it is cheeper. Dental labs in America start collapsing due to overseas competition. Dental retailers have a harder time cutting costs and try to reduce sales visits, and free items. Fewer dental retailers to chose from.

You see the picture. It is getting tougher, both from an economical and technical aspect for the whole dental industry.

Now you will see within 5-10 years some type of healthcare reform. It will affect dentists.

 

[mirk3]

Although I tend to think that the above post is correct, at the end of the day I feel that dentists will always be needed regardless of any health care reform, and once the new administration starts to stimulate and essentially re-build the economy, you will see dentists continue to prosper.

The health care system in Canada for example, which is a national plan, does not cover dental care. I think that once people have money in their pockets again and their retirement plans tend to recover, things will be pretty similar to how they've been for a while. I think it all depends on the state of the economy.

 

[JamieMac]

Consumers start going overseas more and more for their dental needs where it is cheeper.

Can you please elaborate on this statement? Besides placing a mouth full of implants, exactly what types of procedures would make it worthwhile for people to flock overseas? It doesn't seem that the difference in cost would be beneficial to embark on a journey elsewhere.

 

[Daurang]

Can you please elaborate on this statement? Besides placing a mouth full of implants, exactly what types of procedures would make it worthwhile for people to flock overseas? It doesn't seem that the difference in cost would be beneficial to embark on a journey elsewhere.

Removeable complete dentures are usually worthwhile. I tell half of my patients to take a vacation to their country and get it done there for $100-$300. It saves me the headache and them a lot of money; and we're both happy regardless of the outcome.

 

[charlestweed]

Can you please elaborate on this statement? Besides placing a mouth full of implants, exactly what types of procedures would make it worthwhile for people to flock overseas? It doesn't seem that the difference in cost would be beneficial to embark on a journey elsewhere.

Mexico is only 2 hour drive from my office. I know a couple of my patients who drive there to get all the cavities filled before getting braces.

 

[Daurang]

Mexico is only 2 hour drive from my office. I know a couple of my patients who drive there to get all the cavities filled before getting braces.

Why drive so far? I was just in OC last week and saw a bunch of ads for $200 root canals, $325 crowns w/$25 cashback, $999 implants, free bleaching, $20 exam/prophy! My brother's friend had composites done for only $20 each. There's even this garage in San Diego making dentures for $300 each. Are things that desperate out there?

 

[charlestweed]

There are a lot of surveys out there that discuss the production numbers for a GP private practice, the most recent one I have seen is the 2008 DE-Levin Group Practice Survey and was published in last month's Dental Economics magazine. I think $1mil is based on 1 GP ($600-700k) + 2 hygienists (about $300-350k combined), with average overhead of 57%. These are averages, a lot of dentists are above and below those figures. A recent graduate on DentalTown has a practice that produces $3.5 mil, but he has 2 associates + hygienists.

Thanks, Cold Front for the info. Most dentists I know are not that lucky… they should really move out of CA. The only person I know who makes more than the average is my wife's boss.

 

[charlestweed]

Why drive so far? I was just in OC last week and saw a bunch of ads for $200 root canals, $325 crowns w/$25 cashback, $999 implants, free bleaching, $20 exam/prophy! My brother's friend had composites done for only $20 each. There's even this garage in San Diego making dentures for $300 each. Are things that desperate out there?

Yes, but the owner dentists still do OK. They overbook the patients and let the new grad dentists do all the hard works.

 

[cookand]

Although I tend to think that the above post is correct, at the end of the day I feel that dentists will always be needed regardless of any health care reform, and once the new administration starts to stimulate and essentially re-build the economy, you will see dentists continue to prosper.

The health care system in Canada for example, which is a national plan, does not cover dental care. I think that once people have money in their pockets again and their retirement plans tend to recover, things will be pretty similar to how they've been for a while. I think it all depends on the state of the economy.

Now that's rich.

 

[Cold Front]

Thanks, Cold Front for the info. Most dentists I know are not that lucky… they should really move out of CA. The only person I know who makes more than the average is my wife's boss.

They should.

According to ADA, there are more than 3,700 geographical locations across the country without enough dental health professionals. In fact, an estimated 46 million Americans are living in identified Dental Health Profession Shortage Areas and 9,000 additional dentists are needed to fill this gap in care.

If dentists stopped saturating OC, Salt Lake City, Fairfax VA, or some other "every one wants to live there" city - and instead worked in shortage areas, half of the access to dental care problems would be solved.

Look at Iowa, 88 of Iowa's 99 counties are designated dentist shortage areas. If you distributed the dentists in those 11 counties to the others, access would not be as bad. More dentists practice in Boston than the entire western Massachusetts area. Same story applies everywhere else.

 

[mirk3]

Now that's rich.

Yes Bush and the republicans have pushed every policy that encouraged outsourcing of manufacturing jobs and punished the middle class, while spending billions on wars. Meanwhile our infrastructure, universities and research labs are crumbling and running out of money.

The economy was way better under Clinton and the new administration will have a lot of work to do to clean up the mess (once again).

 

[Daurang]

Yes Bush and the republicans have pushed every policy that encouraged outsourcing of manufacturing jobs and punished the middle class, while spending billions on wars. Meanwhile our infrastructure, universities and research labs are crumbling and running out of money.

The economy was way better under Clinton and the new administration will have a lot of work to do to clean up the mess (once again).

The election is over dude! Go find the election thread and argue your point.

 

[montag925]

to me, a senior in college who will be going to dental school, the information on this thread is very informative. thanks.

 

[Rube]

...and once the new administration starts to stimulate and essentially re-build the economy, you will see dentists continue to prosper...

hilarious. ... seriously I couldn't stop laughing. There should be a name for Obama-love syndrome. I mean I wish him luck-**** he's our guy now, but you guys put waaaayyy tooo much faith in a guy who hasn't ever really done anything. 4 years ago he was a community center volunteer... now he is going to single-handedly rebuild the entire US economy... Good luck with the "change" fairy.

On a real note, this could be a good year for young grads to venture out of the suburbs and go where there is need and where they will be truly appreciated as professionals.

 

[Lurchdubious]

hilarious. ... seriously I couldn't stop laughing. There should be a name for Obama-love syndrome. I mean I wish him luck-**** he's our guy now, but you guys put waaaayyy tooo much faith in a guy who hasn't ever really done anything. 4 years ago he was a community center volunteer... now he is going to single-handedly rebuild the entire US economy... Good luck with the "change" fairy.

Serious. My favorite answer to the "Change" fairy is: "I'll keep my Freedom, my Guns, and my Money. You can keep your CHANGE."

As far as the future of dentistry, I don't think we have too much to worry about, at least not for the next 20 years (beyond that, who knows?). I think the next few years will see some pretty cool advances in technology, much like the last decade 'er two. My $0.02.

 

[OceanDMD]

Serious. My favorite answer to the "Change" fairy is: "I'll keep my Freedom, my Guns, and my Money. You can keep your CHANGE."

As far as the future of dentistry, I don't think we have too much to worry about, at least not for the next 20 years (beyond that, who knows?). I think the next few years will see some pretty cool advances in technology, much like the last decade 'er two. My $0.02.

Lets see, 1.2 trillion deficit, unemployment projected to approach 10% in 2009, Most "approaching retiring dentists" retirement funds down 30-40%, Housing sales and values slaughtered, and your comment is "I dont think we have too much to worry about, at least not for the next 20 years". Are you frickin clueless about whats going on right now? Cool advances in technology doesnt get you a job, bring patients in the door, or pay your student loans. Oh, and by the way, with potential inflation occurring in the next 5-10 years(our 'bailouts' are infusing/printing more money into the economy in the last 6 months than the history of the USofA) I would hope on average dentist salaries to be around 250-300k(which they are currently around 180k).

Get out of your cupcake worlds. It would be wise to get through d-school on as little money as possible. Just my opinion for what its worth.

 

[Lurchdubious]

Lets see, 1.2 trillion deficit, unemployment projected to approach 10% in 2009, Most "approaching retiring dentists" retirement funds down 30-40%, Housing sales and values slaughtered, and your comment is "I dont think we have too much to worry about, at least not for the next 20 years". Are you frickin clueless about whats going on right now? Cool advances in technology doesnt get you a job, bring patients in the door, or pay your student loans. Oh, and by the way, with potential inflation occurring in the next 5-10 years(our 'bailouts' are infusing/printing more money into the economy in the last 6 months than the history of the USofA) I would hope on average dentist salaries to be around 250-300k(which they are currently around 180k).

Get out of your cupcake worlds. It would be wise to get through d-school on as little money as possible. Just my opinion for what its worth.

You're right. That's it, I'm dropping out of school. Heck, I'm only in this for the money anyways. Besides, you've watched enough CNN for the both of us.

I meant DENTISTRY will be around for quite a while.

I'm gonna go back underneath my rock. (That's where I keep my cupcakes)

 

[JamieMac]

Lets see, 1.2 trillion deficit, unemployment projected to approach 10% in 2009, Most "approaching retiring dentists" retirement funds down 30-40%, Housing sales and values slaughtered, and your comment is "I dont think we have too much to worry about, at least not for the next 20 years". Are you frickin clueless about whats going on right now? Cool advances in technology doesnt get you a job, bring patients in the door, or pay your student loans. Oh, and by the way, with potential inflation occurring in the next 5-10 years(our 'bailouts' are infusing/printing more money into the economy in the last 6 months than the history of the USofA) I would hope on average dentist salaries to be around 250-300k(which they are currently around 180k).

Get out of your cupcake worlds. It would be wise to get through d-school on as little money as possible. Just my opinion for what its worth.

Very blunt, but I do agree with you. As a former business owner and non-traditional student, my views are somewhat different than some of my classmates. Based on our many conversations regarding the economy, I don't believe many of my classmates have a grasp on how dire the national economic situation is. There is no such thing as a savior in these conditions...the foundation of our economy is in shambles. Sorry to sound doom and gloom, but the second great depression could be on the horizon.

Luck to all of us.

 

[Cold Front]

Very blunt, but I do agree with you. As a former business owner and non-traditional student, my views are somewhat different than some of my classmates. Based on our many conversations regarding the economy, I don't believe many of my classmates have a grasp on how dire the national economic situation is. There is no such thing as a savior in these conditions...the foundation of our economy is in shambles. Sorry to sound doom and gloom, but the second great depression could be on the horizon.

Luck to all of us.

There always will be economic swings and cycles. It is inevitable. During recession, business will be slow, patients will be reluctant to get certain procedures; whiten their teeth, get veneers, get ortho or any other elective service an office has to offer. But that is not to say they will never need it, or dentists will not have a plan in place when economy slows. Adjustments happen all the time, at least for dentists who take practice management seriously.

In terms of private practice, dentistry is considered a small business, and I remember reading somewhere that only 2/3 of small businesses in this country survive the first 2 years, and less than 1/2 make it into 4 years. Dental office failure rates are like... less than 1%, and are usually economic-crisis proof. People will always need healthcare even if they lose their homes and cars. Yes, you will not be doing as much crown and bridges as you would like to, but you should still do fine with the essentials to keep things floating and make a decent income. There are bunch of dentists out there that do just restoratives and do ok. Associates might not find competitive salaries now, but most of them do it as a transition to build their experience and learn how the system works.

Economy should start to recover by 2010.

 

[bwtucker83]

I think this is the BEST time to go to dental school in a long time.

Last year I was working as a real estate investor in Detroit, negotiating short sells for swindeled home owners in foreclosure. When the bottom dropped out of the sub-prime market, my job came to a stand still. At that time I decided to pursue dentistry, and it was one of the best decisions I have every made.

If you are worried about becoming a dentist - GO LOOK FOR A JOB with the degree you have right now, or step back and look where you would be in 4 years if you didn't go to dental school. Hands down, no matter what the economy's problems are, or the amount of mid-level practitioners are on the market - You made an excellent decision.

There is one great place to be during a recession and that is in school for higher education - What are your other options. I wouldn't be suprised if the number of applicants to dental/med/law/mba school spikes dramatically over the next 4 years.

When all is said and done - I don't feel like I could be in any better situation at this point in time. I know this recession is supposed to be bad, but I will be VERY surprised if it is not over by the time we graduate, and then we will be hired into a recovering and growing economy. Its going to be great.

 

[diplo123]

I think this is the BEST time to go to dental school in a long time.

Last year I was working as a real estate investor in Detroit, negotiating short sells for swindeled home owners in foreclosure. When the bottom dropped out of the sub-prime market, my job came to a stand still. At that time I decided to pursue dentistry, and it was one of the best decisions I have every made.

If you are worried about becoming a dentist - GO LOOK FOR A JOB with the degree you have right now, or step back and look where you would be in 4 years if you didn't go to dental school. Hands down, no matter what the economy's problems are, or the amount of mid-level practitioners are on the market - You made an excellent decision.

There is one great place to be during a recession and that is in school for higher education - What are your other options. I wouldn't be suprised if the number of applicants to dental/med/law/mba school spikes dramatically over the next 4 years.

When all is said and done - I don't feel like I could be in any better situation at this point in time. I know this recession is supposed to be bad, but I will be VERY surprised if it is not over by the time we graduate, and then we will be hired into a recovering and growing economy. Its going to be great.

I agree with this 100%. I feel very fortunate that the I will be in school for the next 4.5 years, and hopefully with the new administration this will be enough time turn around the economy. When I graduate the economy will hopefully be a lot better and things will be swinging again. It's a great time to be in school and out of the job market.

 

[HupHolland]

I think this is the BEST time to go to dental school in a long time.

Last year I was working as a real estate investor in Detroit, negotiating short sells for swindeled home owners in foreclosure. When the bottom dropped out of the sub-prime market, my job came to a stand still. At that time I decided to pursue dentistry, and it was one of the best decisions I have every made.

If you are worried about becoming a dentist - GO LOOK FOR A JOB with the degree you have right now, or step back and look where you would be in 4 years if you didn't go to dental school. Hands down, no matter what the economy's problems are, or the amount of mid-level practitioners are on the market - You made an excellent decision.

There is one great place to be during a recession and that is in school for higher education - What are your other options. I wouldn't be suprised if the number of applicants to dental/med/law/mba school spikes dramatically over the next 4 years.

When all is said and done - I don't feel like I could be in any better situation at this point in time. I know this recession is supposed to be bad, but I will be VERY surprised if it is not over by the time we graduate, and then we will be hired into a recovering and growing economy. Its going to be great.

took the words right out of my mouth

Hup

 

[JamieMac]

I think this is the BEST time to go to dental school in a long time.

I also agree with this statement 100%! It's a great time to be in school.

I wouldn't be suprised if the number of applicants to dental/med/law/mba school spikes dramatically over the next 4 years.

I also agree with this...BUT, it also concerns me. Will the greed of some schools cause tuition to rise (even more), and will more schools open creating more intense competition amongst new dental grads (leading to reduced pricing)?

I know this recession is supposed to be bad, but I will be VERY surprised if it is not over by the time we graduate, and then we will be hired into a recovering and growing economy. Its going to be great.

As a fellow Detroiter (and long time Michigan resident), I am surprised at your optimism regarding the economy...but I hope you are correct. Certain areas of the country definitely have an opportunity to recover by the time we graduate (not MI), but it is likely to be a VERY slow recovery. It will take several years for the global economy to establish an equilibrium that will allow for real growth in the US. We are in uncharted territory.

Hopefully, the career of dentistry will be good to all of us.

 

[pietrodds]

I wish I had the optimism that you students do. This economy is in uncharted waters. We hopefully will pull out of this thing by the time the starting class gets out in 4 years but you can count on the upper middle class will get HAMMERED with taxes. To most in this country 100K seems like a ton of money and you will be the ones to carry the burdon of all the gross overspending and bailing out going on recently with skyhigh taxes. Noone cares if you have put your life on hold for 8-9 years to get your degree and have spent 300-400K at 8.5% interest to get it. Also, as the economy tanks, the socialists will push hard for cheaper access to dental care which means you will see the rise of mid-level providers who can do much of what a GP can do.

Keep wearing the rose-colored glasses... where can I get me a pair of those? I do admire the positive thinking but I do hope you balance it with a sense of realism. Good luck.

 

[DrNehalemChips]

. Also, as the economy tanks, the socialists will push hard for cheaper access to dental care which means you will see the rise of mid-level providers who can do much of what a GP can do.

Then wouldn't this mean that GPs will start doing more specialty procedures? Wouldn't future GPR programs start emphasizing more on surgical perios and endo and ortho? ( eventually putting the squeeze on specialists ? )

I can see the future GPs whooing over dental therapists for patient referrals.

Depending on how this turns out, I think GPs can use this to their advantage. I think it's ridiculous to have so many specialties in dentistry. One of glamours of dentistry is that GPs can do everything dental related. I'm not seeing many of these folks right now but maybe the future GP will be more independent and less reliant on specialists. Simple restoratives and exos aren't profitable in my book anyway.

 

[Guy Smiley]

Then wouldn't this mean that GPs will start doing more specialty procedures? Wouldn't future GPR programs start emphasizing more on surgical perios and endo and ortho? ( eventually putting the squeeze on specialists ? )

I can see the future GPs whooing over dental therapists for patient referrals.

Depending on how this turns out, I think GPs can use this to their advantage. I think it's ridiculous to have so many specialties in dentistry. One of glamours of dentistry is that GPs can do everything dental related. I'm not seeing many of these folks right now but maybe the future GP will be more independent and less reliant on specialists. Simple restoratives and exos aren't profitable in my book anyway.

Since when aren't simple exos profitable? If you are good, you spend 5-10 minutes actually working and earn a decent chunk of change with minimal overhead i.e. minimal supply costs, etc. If you are taking out multiple teeth in one sitting, the profit goes up.

 

[AggieDDS]

Depending on how this turns out, I think GPs can use this to their advantage. I think it's ridiculous to have so many specialties in dentistry. One of glamours of dentistry is that GPs can do everything dental related. I'm not seeing many of these folks right now but maybe the future GP will be more independent and less reliant on specialists. Simple restoratives and exos aren't profitable in my book anyway.

You could say the same thing in medicine. Im hearing about medical specialities ive never heard of before/never thought they existed in the pre-health writing class im taking.

 

[jfitzpat]

I wish I had the optimism that you students do. This economy is in uncharted waters. We hopefully will pull out of this thing by the time the starting class gets out in 4 years but you can count on the upper middle class will get HAMMERED with taxes. To most in this country 100K seems like a ton of money and you will be the ones to carry the burdon of all the gross overspending and bailing out going on recently with skyhigh taxes. Noone cares if you have put your life on hold for 8-9 years to get your degree and have spent 300-400K at 8.5% interest to get it. Also, as the economy tanks, the socialists will push hard for cheaper access to dental care which means you will see the rise of mid-level providers who can do much of what a GP can do.

Keep wearing the rose-colored glasses... where can I get me a pair of those? I do admire the positive thinking but I do hope you balance it with a sense of realism. Good luck.

Go look at articles written in the early 1980s and late 1990s about the collapse of dentistry and how the sky was falling. It is all cyclical. While I agree that this is an especially harsh adjustment, it isn't the end of the world.

There are a lot of unreasonably high expectations on this board and I agree that people shouldn't expect someone to hand them a 125k check the day they graduate, but I also think that dentistry will continue to maintain its place as a protifitable profession. Every other profession is getting hammered by this economy too (some much harder than dentistry), so you should just do what makes you happy and in the end it will all work out.

 

[DrNehalemChips]

You could say the same thing in medicine. Im hearing about medical specialities ive never heard of before/never thought they existed in the pre-health writing class im taking.

Not the same thing. You're already a specialist of the mouth when you become a dentist.

Have you ever been to a dental school that accepts AP or international dentists? And have you ever worked alongside a dentist who also has a dental degree from an outside country?

From what I've personally gathered, the typical foreign-trained GP has strong OS skills and can even do surgical perio and some ortho. I've seen mixed results for pedo because dealing with kids isn't for any competent dentist. I've also met some skilled GPs who were only trained in the US but their abilities are like guppies when you compare them to foreign-trained ones. US-trained GPs refer out too much and the types of specialties we have are ridiculous. Let's start with prosthodontics. What type of normal GP doesn't do pros? I know prosthodontists are 'better' than GPs due to their extra 3 yr training but what are GPs then qualified to perform? Just prophies and fillings?

Foreign dental schools aren't any longer in duration than their US counterparts. Heck, US dental schools are perhaps the most expensive education you can buy in the world.

So why the disparity in skills between the US and foreign-educated?

Must be some type of political issue, huh?

 

[Goggletard]

Yes, but the owner dentists still do OK. They overbook the patients and let the new grad dentists do all the hard works.

I had to quote this for the epic truth it conyeys.....is it a major bummer, of course it is, but it is accurate for other grads in my situation. It seems that I will always be trying to climb out from under the giant cloud of debt I accrued pursuing this profession. When the time comes to finally buy out one of the old dinosaurs who is finally ready to go play some golf and chase pretty girls , where is the 1.8 or hell, make it 10.8 ( ha, it doesnt even matter) million dollars going to come from? Hopes and dreams will get us so far, then we just get bitter that dental school wasnt just "a couple grand" like it was for our white haired buddies back in the stone age ! I dont think I'll quite be able to finance that with my dashing good looks and getting ultra jiggy with my totally rad happy dance....

Just the stress of thinking about it gives me an ulcer..

 

[Cold Front]

I think this is the BEST time to go to dental school in a long time.

There is a new reality that will affect the dental industry for years to come. The offices that adapt will thrive, while those who go along as if nothing has happened will struggle to survive. Now is the best time to prepare for the future, whether you are in school or not.

 

[robhmnt]

Assuming the worst case to happen, always try to put things in perspective (That is what I do). Here is an example: My uncle's house on the west coast cost 900k in 2004, but it costs 400k right now because of this economic meltdown. I'm sure many of you would agree that this mess is not going to be covered in less than a decade, and much more is to come for our country which has major problems to solve. Now, if the house prices had stayed right where they were (and not even risen), you would be buying that house for 900k in future. However, you will be able to buy it for 400k (or even 500 or 600k assuming that will be the price in 2015), although you will be making 20k less because of this economic slow down, difficulty in finding a job, and many other reasons which can still be tackled by good strategies. Which one would you prefer? Buying the same house for a mil five years later while you will be making 120k a year, or buying it for 500k while you will be making 90k/ year? I bet the difference is still big. This is just an example to put things in perspective, unless the situation gets to a point where we won't be able to find a job ANYWHERE in this country. "When there is a will, there is a way". Try to focus on D-school, studying hard, and becoming a good dentist. The rest will take care of itself. Overall, do we have another choice? I certainly wouldn't want to swap places with the med students, pharmacy students, accountants, dental hygienists, and etc. If you can get in the market and gross 100k a year, it might not be a bad idea to ignore pursuing a career in dentistry, and making the cash right now hoping to develop the business, but if that's not a choice, welcome to the club.

 

[robhmnt]

Mexico is only 2 hour drive from my office. I know a couple of my patients who drive there to get all the cavities filled before getting braces.

Last summer, my friend told me about his mom traveling to middle east to get 9 crowns + two perio surgeries done for 1,500 dollars + 1,500 for a plane ticket, which adds up to 3k. I was shocked to a degree that it made the entire details stick to my mind. How good of a deal is that, doc?

 

[OceanDMD]

Last summer, my friend told me about his mom traveling to middle east to get 9 crowns + two perio surgeries done for 1,500 dollars + 1,500 for a plane ticket, which adds up to 3k. I was shocked to a degree that it made the entire details stick to my mind. How good of a deal is that, doc?

You would be surprised what you see in private practice as far as dental work from middle east/eastern Europe. Some of that stuff I wouldn't put in my rottweiler's mouth, let alone a human. You get what you pay for. Good dentistry is expensive.

 

[Daurang]

Assuming the worst case to happen, always try to put things in perspective (That is what I do). Here is an example: My uncle's house on the west coast cost 900k in 2004, but it costs 400k right now because of this economic meltdown.

What city is your uncle place in? Riverside/Temecula or somewhere along the coast?

 

[robhmnt]

What city is your uncle place in? Riverside/Temecula or somewhere along the coast?

La Can~ada.

 

[Guy Smiley]

I think dentists are more hard hit than a lot of other medical professions (like doctors)... People fear going to a dentist (its not a pleasant experience, most of the time) and by having a recession in the background, that further keeps them from seeing the dentist. Also, dental work is conceived as more of a "luxury" service than medicine is. Plus, with the advent of better dental products (rinses, water fluoridation, better toothbrushes), the general population probably will not have as many dental-related problems in the future. Almost everyone brushes their teeth, but not everyone really takes care of their general health.

You will be surprised at how untrue this is once you get out there.

 

[Cold Front]

I think dentists are more hard hit than a lot of other medical professions (like doctors)... People fear going to a dentist (its not a pleasant experience, most of the time) and by having a recession in the background, that further keeps them from seeing the dentist. Also, dental work is conceived as more of a "luxury" service than medicine is. Plus, with the advent of better dental products (rinses, water fluoridation, better toothbrushes), the general population probably will not have as many dental-related problems in the future. Almost everyone brushes their teeth, but not everyone really takes care of their general health.

Although I agree that dentistry will become more prevention based as people get more educated about oral health in the future, you are wrong about dental products reducing the demand for the dental profession.

Teeth are among the most distinctive (and long-lasting) features of our bodies. As long as there are cavities, periodontal disease and the other million conditions that affects the oral cavity - dentists will be around for a very long time.

You will see what I mean when you start dental school, or visit an office in under-served communities.

 

[robhmnt]

I think dentists are more hard hit than a lot of other medical professions (like doctors)... People fear going to a dentist (its not a pleasant experience, most of the time) and by having a recession in the background, that further keeps them from seeing the dentist. Also, dental work is conceived as more of a "luxury" service than medicine is. Plus, with the advent of better dental products (rinses, water fluoridation, better toothbrushes), the general population probably will not have as many dental-related problems in the future. Almost everyone brushes their teeth, but not everyone really takes care of their general health.

You forgot that less than 10% of the U.S population floss on a daily basis ----> Lots of proximal caries + periodontal disease
Your argument about the depression kinda makes sense, but your argument about fluoridation, better toothbrushes, and rinses is not valid at all. We are far behind the point when people's scruplulous care of oral health will affect the income of dentists.