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how so?
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bigtymer, you're saying it's better to do an elective at a location than in the specialty of your choice?? (Except gen surg and family med....) That doesn't make sense and seems the opposite. Wouldn't it be better to rotate through the specialty OVER the location? Which Jnuts claims. Clearly, people apply to more programs than they get the opportunity to do electives at. Further, more people probably rotate through on electives at one location than residency spots are available...do you have anything beyond personal anecdotes to base this off?
I thought most schools did not consider your USMLE scores. Do they?
The whole thing feels like such a crapshoot.....
To be fair, I'm only looking at surgical specialties so that may bias me to specialty over location. I've heard that it doesn't matter as much for the medical side.
I'd really suggest going over to CaRMS and looking at the program you're interested in. If it mentions that they're looking for a student dedicated to the specialty then I'd try much harder to get an elective in that specialty.
How hard is it for an american (no canadian pr/passport) to match family medicine in canada (in particular McGill) after attending an Irish school?
Are you bilingual? If not, don't bother dreaming of McGill. Yes, it is an English speaking Uni, but it is located in La Belle Province, so you need to be able to speak French (there are provincial rules to that effect, which is why the mostly anglos on this list don't ever mention Quebec as a viable prospect).
You would have to apply to become a permanent resident of Canada before you could apply. Many programs would have questions about why you weren't applying in the US. Cheers,
M
Residencies in Canada are much of a muchness. The training is equivalent pretty much no matter where you go as the colleges review the programs every 4-5 years, and if they are underperforming or there are major problems they are required to clean up their act. I just participated in the internal review process at Dal, preparing for these external audits, and it's very thorough. You can do residency pretty much anywhere in Canada and be confident that you are getting the training you are supposed to be getting.
That being said, there may be parts of the country that you can't see yourself living. That does have to be factored in when you are applying to programs in the match, but if you limit yourself too much geographically, you very likely won't match.
Family medicine is a good deal in Canada. I sat down with a financial advisor a few months ago and we worked out a plan where I can pay off my not inconsiderable debts in 6-8 years and still live quite comfortable, without working all the hours God made. My schedule is a little mental right now (it's a long weekend and I am working 2 of the 3 days, and I have a stretch at the end of the month where I am effectively holding down 2 full time jobs) but this is more due to my chronic inability to say no than because FM in Canada is crazy. If you live in a smaler area you can pick up extra money working emerg, and there is always the possibility of branching out in to gerries or palliative care (or anaesthetics or obs or psych or pretty much anything these days )if you get bored with your office practice. You can also structure your office practice to suit yourself. i know one doc locally who does a day in addiction services, a day in emerg, a day doing well woman clinics, a day assisting and a day in the office. She shares a practice with another doc who likes to do more in the office. It works well for both of them. Look around a bit - family medicine does not mean on call all day every day and endless hours in the office listening to tales of woe (or it doesn't have to).
Anyway, just my 2 cents worth. Cheers,
M
That's very interesting, how Canada is more flexible than the US. Is this only for FM or is IM also flexible....I'm really into EM but I doubt I will be able to apply for that to Canada, it's too risky (I don't want to use US as a backup). So can I still do emergency while in IM?
Also, I looked at some figures of salaries (which are important if you have a huge debt) for IM in Canada...and they were over $200k. Is that realistic? It is way more than the US average!
Just a question about medical school in Ireland. Does the school one attend matter at all. I know RCSI is a well reputable school, whereas limerick for instance is consider the most innovative due to its PBL format. So when matching in Canada, if you have an applicant from each of these schools, which would a residency director prefer if any? Will it just depend on the fact that both students, nothing else, are from Ireland or will school reputation/curriculm matter?
Also one other question, does having a domestic degree help? For instance, when looking at high school grads who attend med school directly from high school in comparison to those who get their undergrad or maybe even a masters degree before starting school in Ireland, does it help. Do prog directors acknowledge the fact that such students have proved that they can study in a Canadian model (if they have been successful academically), or are such factors irrelevant?
Thanks
There were 900+ applications for 9 spots in Regina, for example.
Just a question about medical school in Ireland. Does the school one attend matter at all. I know RCSI is a well reputable school, whereas limerick for instance is consider the most innovative due to its PBL format. So when matching in Canada, if you have an applicant from each of these schools, which would a residency director prefer if any? Will it just depend on the fact that both students, nothing else, are from Ireland or will school reputation/curriculm matter?
Also one other question, does having a domestic degree help? For instance, when looking at high school grads who attend med school directly from high school in comparison to those who get their undergrad or maybe even a masters degree before starting school in Ireland, does it help. Do prog directors acknowledge the fact that such students have proved that they can study in a Canadian model (if they have been successful academically), or are such factors irrelevant?
Thanks
Curious to see the SDN perspective as well. Check out the Canadian premed forum as there are like a whole bunch of people against DO and one individual who is going to california for it. At the end of the day: DO-stigma will always be there to some degree(you will be a DO for life), you may become frustrated having to constantly prove you are as good as an MD(even an IMG MD), some prog directors may be biased towards DOs, you have to like OMM and the philosophy of the profession but you have a little more security for residency. MD for Ireland means a really good shot at matchin back into Canada and if not that then the states. You have your degree (MD-MBBS) from a well established university but you have to be okay with the risk. Tuition wise both routes are the same (50,000 tuition each way).
I was in your boat, but prefer the MD, something I have worked towards my entire life.
your definitely trolling now
For those who have completed their training in Ireland, please respond to the image posted by Mashmetoo. Canadian directors like Irish grads, Carms goes to Ireland to tell them of the success of past years grads, provinces like Sask send their premier to Ireland, in the hopes of recruiting grads to come back to their province. Numbers are hard to come by, I have spoken to representatives that say it is very high but on paper, they don't publish it, just like no one knows the exact number of students who have done DO and then residency in Canada but the numbers floating around are 1-2.
Yes we understand that DO is very similar to MD in USA. To pursue DO you have to have a passion for alternative medicine to some degree to do and love the manipulations part of the profession that makes it distinct. The perception is just not there in Canada and it wouldn't feel good for many to have to defend their degree everyday, in the states it is very different. Students who go to Ireland want to come home and realize if they want to specialize they can always pursue the states.
Just remember, keep conversations civil. There are reasons some people choose to go IMG vs. earning a DO. There are very good MDs, IMGs and DO's out there the same as there are some bad ones.
Also note that the MD degree does exist in Ireland and the UK. It's like a PHD for doctors. The MD is conferred when a doctor completes a post-graduate research program, usually at registrar level.
Does anyone know how Irish student prep for USMLE. Do you come back to Canada/USA for it? Are courses run there?
Ok, I agree with that (I got a little worked up before due to some misconceptions in your post regarding DOs). Also, DO isn't really "alternative medicine". Alternative medicine is the term used to describe Chiropractors, or naturopaths. DOs on the other hand is just a parallel branch of medicine to Allopathic medicine but with a different philosophy. - this is a subtle but very important distinction between "alternative medicine" and Osteopathic medicine.
The other thing is, yes, "common knowledge" states that Irish grads can come back to Canada more easily from personal anecdotes of Canadians who went there. But the published data really doesn't point to this conclusion. I'd also like to hear someone address the similar, if not GREATER numbers of Canadian IMG grads of Pakistan, Indian, Iran, etc. The published data points to a different story than the common stated "fact" that Irish grads have an easier time coming back to Canada.
Does anyone know how Irish student prep for USMLE. Do you come back to Canada/USA for it? Are courses run there?
The other thing is, yes, "common knowledge" states that Irish grads can come back to Canada more easily from personal anecdotes of Canadians who went there. But the published data really doesn't point to this conclusion. I'd also like to hear someone address the similar, if not GREATER numbers of Canadian IMG grads of Pakistan, Indian, Iran, etc. The published data points to a different story than the common stated "fact" that Irish grads have an easier time coming back to Canada.
Um, I am not sure where you got these statistics. The way you have stated this, you seem to think that these Iranian and Indian and Pakistani grads were Canadian citizens before they went to med school. I think you are confusing IMG's in general with the specifics of Canadians who go abroad to study. In the larger picture, yes, more Indian, Iranian and Pakistani grads match to Canada than Irish grads. This would be because, in general, more grads from these countries would like to come to Canada to live after they graduate, largely due to socio-economic circumstances. Ireland graduates relatively few Canadian citizens each year, the vast majority of whom match back to either Canada or the US. Very few Irish grads who are Irish citizens apply to come to Canada, Ireland being wealthier and nicer to live in than, say Pakistan, with fewer opportunities to have all your limbs blown off by a bomb (note, I did not say "No opportunities to have all your limbs blown off by a bomb - that can really happen just about anywhere, although where I am practicing it would be highly unlikely).
So, by raw stats it looks like Ireland is a worse bet than Pakistan or Iran or India. If you looked at it proportionally (i.e.how many people applied compared to how many matched) Ireland would win hands down.
Cheers,
M
PS: The stats I post regularly are not massaged or quoted out of context. They are hard facts - x number applied, y number matched. Canadians in Ireland have an almost 100% match rate. The CaRMS numbers look a little grimmer because they don't factor out the people who elect to stay in Ireland for a few years to work and those who elect to match to the US.
Also I want to mention a point that I think is worth mentioning about the "DO route".
I did not choose that route simple because it is NOT recognized WORLD WIDE.
You people keep talking about Canada and the US, believe it or not there is a whole world out there that needs doctors and has excellent health care.
I do not want to limit myself to Canada and the US if I get the DO. For example, I will not be allowed to practice in almost all of the Middle East. And not all of us wish to practice in Canada/US. That is why the DO is inferior to any other medical degree (MD, MBBS...etc) in this aspect.
Also, so far Canada has only opened its doors to DO mostly for FM only.
Again all the points being made are very valid and we don't want to debate the merits of IMG Ireland and DO because they are both good routes to a excellent profession. You have to understand that as a DO, the majority of individuals just won't understand the degree. As a Canadian who was admitted to several DO schools two years ago, I have spoken to doctors in Canada and they are very confused and think of osteopathic medicine as chiro. They can't understand if the professions are so similar, why aren't they merged? In the states doctors and residents of certain states are well aware of DOs but you will find areas where there is little understanding of it. Just don't become offended when some thinks of it as a profession with some aspects of alternative medicine as I am sure many others do too and it will be your job to spread the awareness of DO.
mash, are you trying to convince us? or convince yourself?
Nicely stated. I think everyone appreciates your candid responses in the DO debate and can appreciate that you are a pioneer in a field that up to this point, very few Canadian pursue. On a unrelated note does anyone know if irish med schools have white coat ceremonies. If so does anyone have the dates for schools like UCC, rcsi and University of Limerick.
Thank you
My apologies, didn't realise that was CAPER data being quoted.
Nevertheless, just because those people are Canadian citizens or PR's at the time or residency does not mean they were likewise Canadian citizens or PR's when they applied for med school. In order to get a residency position in Canada you have to be either a citizen or a PR, so by definition every IMG who matches is one or the other. Likewise, in no place does this table state they have no previous training. Canada takes lots of people into residency who have had previous training, either through alternate matching processes (health boards and individual hospitals sponsor them) or through the match for retraining. In the group that finished residency training the year I started in my program we had two Iranian gynacologists who retrained as FP's in Canada.
Irish grads match.
Cheers,
M
Mash you are copy pasting your posts from premed 101 to every single forum thread on the internet which has the phrase "D.O" in it. Being the loudest doesnt mean you are always right and that the world agrees with you. Although you sound like a bright guy with the best intentions, your posting behavior is what gave me the impression that you might be trolling us. I apologize if I offended you. Its also best to avoid categorical thinking (total success/failure) when debating an issue like this.
I researched the D.O route and talked to several physicians in my area to come to the conclusion that I would rather get an m.d in the end, mostly because I dont have the passion for the Osteopathic alternative take on medicine. Furthermore, I dont want to wind up defending my d.o degree in an m.d dominated hospital. D.O is a great route to take if you have a hard skin and enjoy the osteopathic manipulative medicine techniques. Some people fit the D.O category, some dont. It depends on the person you are, not which degree is superior. In regards to M.D, the Irish schools are respected and their match rate is excellent. Best of all, there is no stigma attached. Besides, think of all the Irish beer and whiskey !
I am not going to answer anyone specifically in order not to offend anyone.
1) Irish Medical School for Canadians is superior to all other IMG routes. Irish grads match very well in Canada (and in the USA).
2) In my opinion (not humble one), for Canadians wanting to practice in Canada should never do a DO degree.
3) I have been there, done that, and decided to do an MD degree. We had this discussion with some on the Canadian Premed forum. Sometimes we try really hard to convince ourselves of something that is not true.
Nicely stated. I think everyone appreciates your candid responses in the DO debate and can appreciate that you are a pioneer in a field that up to this point, very few Canadian pursue.
I talked to a few Canadians currently in DO schools, they are all applying back to Ontario and BC residencies (whether they'll get in is a different matter). They don't think that doing DO is a path of "no return" to Canada. I guess what happened with you (back in 2004? 2006) was that the DO route just became viable in Canada (DOs were recognized to be equivalent as the same as the MD only in 2002), so maybe there were still bureaucratic red tape? Whatever the reason, Osteopathic medicine is growing in the US. 1/5 med schools students starting med school today are DO, and in 2015, they anticipate the rate to become 1 in 4. Just saying, the DO profession isn't shrinking or going away anytime soon. And if history is a teacher, when the US does something, Canada is (usually) soon to follow. Personally, I didn't really care much for returning to Canada, so going DO was an added bonus for me. It really is like doing a US MD, then staying in the US to continue on in an ACGME residency afterwards.
You can pick what you want to believe. The DO degree in the USA has been going on for over 100 years. So it is not new and not going to catch on in Canada. There is a lot more to DO program then just finishing and going to an MD-residency program.
I don't care to tell you exactly what happened in 2006 and why changed paths. IM(NH)O, for Canadian with a faint desire to work in Canada, I would go to IRISH MED school over DO school any day. Again, I am sure if you go to the DO forum people will tell you something different.
PS. It is not really your life duty to defend the DO profession all over the internet. If you don't like what you read here on the Irish Med School forum you simply don't have to visit it. I question if you are simply using a reaction formation defence mechanism, as I did in the past.
I'll keep my personal beliefs, thank you. You can also believe in whatever you choose to believe regarding these paths, really makes no difference to me. I really don't care what happened to you back in 2006 or whatever year it was. If you read my previous post more carefully, I made a guess, but didn't really ask you about what happened, nor do I particularly want to know. In terms of personal beliefs, for instance, I personally believe that it's quite a hefty fee one would pay to do a 7-8? year MD/PhD program without any residency training with an additional one year and tuition worth of DO schooling wasted in a human life span. But that's just my personal opinion. As for DOs not catching on in Canada, well, that's your personal belief. Back 100 years ago, DOs were just osteopaths, not the docs in the sense we know them today. TWO Canadian provinces currently allow DOs to match in the first round along with CMGs (very recent development), that's progress imho and clearly a sign of DOs catching on in Canada. CPSO has an entire section on how US MDs and DOs can practice in Ontario with their 3rd pathway. Of course there's more to DOs than going to ACGME program, but being a practical Canadian studying DO in the US, I want to keep all my options open. In order to have even a slight hope of returning to Canada, I have to do ACGME residencies - this is the sole reason why I want to pursue ACGME. Mind you, if AOA residencies were ever accepted in Canada, I wouldn't mind doing those either. Every which way, you can't dispute the fact that 1 in 5 med students enrolling in med schools in the US are now DO, and the ratio will go to 1 in 4 by 2015.
Well, I don't usually post on SDN. I was doing my DO posts on premed101.com/forums when someone linked one of the posts to this page, so I read it. Then I came across some posts with some pretty wild misconceptions about DOs, so I thought I'd set the record straight. And please, it's more an issue of correcting wrong information than "defending" the DO profession. For instance, people here STILL think that Ireland offers a medical MD degree (not the PhD kind), so I set the record straight that they actually offer the MBBS. They said that the match rates are good, but offer limited publically published data, so I went and set the record straight with CAPER data, then questioned the entire premise of how it's "so" easy for Canadians to come back. etc etc etc. Lastly, no, I'm not secretly a MD lover and a DO hater. I've accepted the fact that I went to a DO school, and will be a DO for life. You won't see any stories floating around on these forums about a poster called "mashmetoo" who dropped out after 1 year of DO school, reapplied for MD schools, then went for a MD/PhD. No sirrie, I'm sticking with the DO ship
ad hominem
Well, I don't usually post on SDN. I was doing my DO posts on premed101.com/forums when someone linked one of the posts to this page, so I read it. Then I came across some posts with some pretty wild misconceptions about DOs, so I thought I'd set the record straight. And please, it's more an issue of correcting wrong information than "defending" the DO profession. For instance, people here STILL think that Ireland offers a medical MD degree (not the PhD kind), so I set the record straight that they actually offer the MBBS. They said that the match rates are good, but offer limited publically published data, so I went and set the record straight with CAPER data, then questioned the entire premise of how it's "so" easy for Canadians to come back. etc etc etc. Lastly, no, I'm not secretly a MD lover and a DO hater. I've accepted the fact that I went to a DO school, and will be a DO for life. You won't see any stories floating around on these forums about a poster called "mashmetoo" who dropped out after 1 year of DO school, reapplied for MD schools, then went for a MD/PhD. No sirrie, I'm sticking with the DO ship