The so called "sexual revolution"/"freedom" of modern day women

[Smilemaker100]

I thought I would start a new thread with this topic as it is pretty relevant, especially to women and children. In my last thread, the topic sort of sidetracked from a woman's singlehood to woman's sexual freedom. This is what I wrote as a reply...

Regarding "respecting women's sexuality"... that only means 1) not forcing unwanted advances and 2) being sincerely interested in her pleasure. That doesn't mean be can't want sex before marriage.

I totally agree that it's shame our culture has taken the anticipation and suspense out of sex, but I'm glad that in other ways it's given us all more sexual freedom. In the old days, it was considered sinfull to want to have sex, even if it was with your husband! So sure, you got men who would only hold your hand until you were married... but the trade off was that even after you were married, your desires and your pleasures were either condemned or ignored.

WOMEN ARE NOT SEXUALLY FREE! THEY ARE THE VICTIMS OF THE MEDIA AND POP CULTURE!

You make some valid points. However, our society has become too "sexualized" and dare I say, perverted ? Sex is used in the media to sell just about everything. The innocense of our children has even been lost with youngsters participating in sexual acts at younger and younger ages. We don't let kids be kids anymore but push them earlier into their adolescense. Just look at the "tweenie phenomenon"- I am referring to preteens or girls in the 9-12 years of age bracket starting to use makeup and dressing way too provocatively for their age who idolize indecent entertainers like Britney Spears.

With girls being sexualized by culture at an earlier age, child pornography seems to have risen and sadly, a lot of young girls as young as 8 years old in third world countries such as Thailand are selling their bodies on the streets. I've even read of young boys (pre-teens) crossdressing as girls in Russia and selling their bodies to men too. What is even more disgusting is that there is evidently a market for this perversion otherwise these children wouldn't be doing it.

So much exposure puts ideas in mens' minds and leads them to expect sex from women earlier in the relationship than they should be. And women feel pressured to give in because they have been fed so much garbage by the media. When a woman won't submit, men think there is something wrong with the woman, whereas in olden days, men would think it is respectable to be celebate and would not think it odd.

Do you really think we really have gained our "sexual freedom"? Sure, it is great that women can now speak openly about their sexual experiences with their husband but are we really more "free" when more and more preteenaged girls are becoming sexualized and the child sex industry seems to be booming? I believe that women are now facing a new type of "hidden victimization" and I am not blind to it. If anything, it worries me because little girls are not allowed to be children anymore and men are expecting far too much from women too early on. I don't think women have really found their sexual freedom but they have been deluded to believe so.

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[relatively prime]

Are we talking about teenage girls here? or adult women? Because, honestly, once a woman is 19/20 she really should have her own mind about her and not still be hung up on what glamour magazines are telling her to do. An adult woman should be comfortable telling a guy when she wants to have sex and when she doesn't. Just because a guy might expect sex, that doesn't mean she has to give it to him.

I think you must have read the book "Reviving Ophelia." A lot of the words and phrases you use seem pulled right out of the book. But that book was about how our culture affects adolescent girls.

I think the sexual revolution has been GREAT for adult men and women. However, unfortunately, aspects of it that should have been kept from children and adolescents have not been. People allowed the sexual revolution to penetrate too much of the media... such that now it's ok to sexualize anything and anyone. And when that happens, it becomes difficult to keep children from being exposed to the wrong messages.


But OVERALL... I think the sexual revolution has given great freedom to women!

 

[Smilemaker100]

Are we talking about teenage girls here? or adult women? Because, honestly, once a woman is 19/20 she really should have her own mind about her and not still be hung up on what glamour magazines are telling her to do. An adult woman should be comfortable telling a guy when she wants to have sex and when she doesn't. Just because a guy might expect sex, that doesn't mean she has to give it to him.

I think you must have read the book "Reviving Ophelia." A lot of the words and phrases you use seem pulled right out of the book. But that book was about how our culture affects adolescent girls.

I think the sexual revolution has been GREAT for adult men and women. However, unfortunately, aspects of it that should have been kept from children and adolescents have not been. People allowed the sexual revolution to penetrate too much of the media... such that now it's ok to sexualize anything and anyone. And when that happens, it becomes difficult to keep children from being exposed to the wrong messages.

But OVERALL... I think the sexual revolution has given great freedom to women!

No, I have never heard of the book "Reviving Ophelia". My opinion mostly stems from reading magazine and newspaper articles and some TV programs. But one doesn't even have to read all that much to get the deductions I have made if one simply looks at how women are portrayed in magazines, TV shows and the movies.

Sure a woman at a certain age should have a "mind of her own" but when a woman is raised surrounded with so much negative imagery and sexualization, you cannot deny that that will influence how she relates to men sexually...not all women are influenced by this but a like a lot of things, women are affected by the cultural "norms" reflected in the media.

It takes an intelligent and educated woman to realize what is wrong with the media and how she is going to/not going to let it influence her opinions and decisions in life. But I think it is mostly how a woman is raised which will influence how she relates to men. Unfortunately, more and more women are not being raised by their own parents but by nannies and nurseries.

Parents really have to get involved in raising their children, especially their daughters, so that they can arm them with the ability to decide what is wrong and what is right. A lot of parents are lazy and are handing over the responsibility of raising their children to the childcare sector and schools. This is what worries me...parents don't take the time to talk to their kids anymore but are more preoccupied with earning big bucks. With no parents to talk to, children are forming their opinions and values based on what they see on TV, movies and what their peers tell them. I was lucky in that I had a stay-at-home mom and if I ever have kids, I would want to be as present as much as possible to guide them.

I tend to be half-way in agreement with your statement that "overall the sexual revolution has given great freedom to women"...remember we are only referring to the industrialized world here. The majority of women in the world live in underdeveloped countries and are still considered as property and as being inferior to men.

 

[relatively prime]

I forgot to note that a big part of the sexual revolution was the acceptance of birth control... and birth control afforded a never-before-possible amount of freedom to women!! Before birth control, women would just have one child after another. There was no time for a career or any life of her own. And that wasn't anyone's fault but nature's.

 

[delchrys]

a couple of things...

first, we need to clarify something. some of us are coming from a totally different set of moral premises than others. for example, one writer in this thread expressed that society is becoming "too sexualized" or "perverted". This is by your subjective standard that you make this judgment. americans have historically struggled with their dualistic (and self-contradictory) nature of being very sexual and sex-oriented while simultaneously trying to be very puritanical. this leads to enormous guilt, particularly in women. where does this guilt come from? well, one big source is the social pressure that certain factions put on women, because they see sex as "dirty" or "perverted" and thus, a woman engaging in sex acts is dirty and perverted. a child exploring his or her sexuality is bad and to be chastised. WHY?

please explain what is inherently "bad" or "dirty" about sex? oh, yes, STDs can be passed. So can colds and numerous bacterial and viral nasties that are not sexually transmitted, which is why we wash our hands after we poop. the solution to STDs isn't to pretend like sex isn't going to happen, nor is it to actually develop real feelings of disgust towards sex, sexuality, or sexual beings (which humans are, by the way). so keep the STD excuse, and please, offer some valid, rational explanations as to why sex is a bad thing.

as far as the comments about "child pornography seems to be increasing"...how do you come to such a conclusion?

i live in a society (the united states) where virtually every woman is scarred at some level by the hypocritical nature of the "norm" that oozes sexuality at every turn yet simultaneously screams at each and ever woman that sex is bad and will make them dirty if they do it, that they are somehow "used" by engaging in consesual sexual behavior. do you have any idea how disgusting that is? not the sex, but the scarring that is done to women as a result of judgmental people who live in little worlds where sex is bad and dirty and only something done by bad and dirty girls? do you have any idea the psychological acrobatics a woman will put herself through just to rationalize herself into being able to have a one-night stand? i've lived through the process and the aftermath more times than i care to count. i've had women tell me how they "aren't like that" only to find out that they've given plenty of one-night-stand BLOWJOBS, but since they never had their vagina penetrated by a penis, it "didn't count".

openness. open-mindedness. treating people with respect. and treating sex as it deserves to be treated--like a fun physical activity with certain risks rather than a filthy depraved act. these are all things that make a strong and positive environment, and breed strong and positive people. treating sex and sexuality as "bad morals" is not only ineffective, but is destructive.

 

[Smilemaker100]

a couple of things...

first, we need to clarify something. some of us are coming from a totally different set of moral premises than others. for example, one writer in this thread expressed that society is becoming "too sexualized" or "perverted". This is by your subjective standard that you make this judgment. americans have historically struggled with their dualistic (and self-contradictory) nature of being very sexual and sex-oriented while simultaneously trying to be very puritanical. this leads to enormous guilt, particularly in women. where does this guilt come from? well, one big source is the social pressure that certain factions put on women, because they see sex as "dirty" or "perverted" and thus, a woman engaging in sex acts is dirty and perverted. a child exploring his or her sexuality is bad and to be chastised. WHY?

please explain what is inherently "bad" or "dirty" about sex? oh, yes, STDs can be passed. So can colds and numerous bacterial and viral nasties that are not sexually transmitted, which is why we wash our hands after we poop. the solution to STDs isn't to pretend like sex isn't going to happen, nor is it to actually develop real feelings of disgust towards sex, sexuality, or sexual beings (which humans are, by the way). so keep the STD excuse, and please, offer some valid, rational explanations as to why sex is a bad thing.

as far as the comments about "child pornography seems to be increasing"...how do you come to such a conclusion?

i live in a society (the united states) where virtually every woman is scarred at some level by the hypocritical nature of the "norm" that oozes sexuality at every turn yet simultaneously screams at each and ever woman that sex is bad and will make them dirty if they do it, that they are somehow "used" by engaging in consesual sexual behavior. do you have any idea how disgusting that is? not the sex, but the scarring that is done to women as a result of judgmental people who live in little worlds where sex is bad and dirty and only something done by bad and dirty girls? do you have any idea the psychological acrobatics a woman will put herself through just to rationalize herself into being able to have a one-night stand? i've lived through the process and the aftermath more times than i care to count. i've had women tell me how they "aren't like that" only to find out that they've given plenty of one-night-stand BLOWJOBS, but since they never had their vagina penetrated by a penis, it "didn't count".

openness. open-mindedness. treating people with respect. and treating sex as it deserves to be treated--like a fun physical activity with certain risks rather than a filthy depraved act. these are all things that make a strong and positive environment, and breed strong and positive people. treating sex and sexuality as "bad morals" is not only ineffective, but is destructive.

Excuse me? NOWHERE did I say sex was bad! What is wrong is men pressuring women to have sex and not loving a woman for her "person. Sex is not dirty if it is an act of love between two people who are committed to one another. It is the ultimate act of intimacy.

As for children and teenagers exploring their sexuality...that's not the problem. The problem I see with that is them being exposed to TOO much sexuality. If I have a daughter under the age of 12 who wears makeup, wears short skirts and tight tops which reveal her belly button and her developing breasts, I would be very much concerned...for goodness sake! Look around...look at all these pre-teens! What has happened to childhood?

Beauty contests such as Miss America also concern me because they focus so much on a woman's sexual appeal...all that talk about a contestant's talents and eloquence is a load of bulls**t used to cover up the true aim of those contests: women as sexual objects. And just look at the growing phenomenon of "little" Miss America contests where little 5 year old girls are masquerading/parading as older women- wearing makeup, & dressing provocatively in high heels! Remember JonBennet Patricia Ramsey? That is perversion!

When you see young girls portrayed in a sexualized manner, it normalizes it and people start to look at children as sexual beings.And then you look at the incidence of child sexual abuse and child pornography and you have to wonder whether there is a link.

As for how do I arrive at the conclusion that child pornography is on the rise? Well, you don't have to have much intelligence to figure that one out...with the internet, there is more widespread access to child porno material...just read this article
http://www.crime-research.org/articles/536/

 

[Smilemaker100]

I forgot to note that a big part of the sexual revolution was the acceptance of birth control... and birth control afforded a never-before-possible amount of freedom to women!! Before birth control, women would just have one child after another. There was no time for a career or any life of her own. And that wasn't anyone's fault but nature's.

Yes, I agree. But again, let's think GLOBALLY! On a global basis, the majority of women are not "sexually free or liberated" nor do they have access to birth control. It is for this very reason why I think one of the greatest challenges facing humanity is on how to control the growing populations in third world countries where there are famines and other problems. Giving women an education is the key- as early as possible.

 

[delchrys]

okay, so you didn't come out and say "sex is dirty and bad." in your reply, however, you stated, "Sex is not dirty if it is an act of love between two people who are committed to one another."

so, are you saying that it is dirty if two people don't love each other and just want to screw each other's brains out for a few hours and then part company forever?

if you are, then i stand by my comments. if you are NOT saying that, then please explain why your comment (quoted here in the first paragraph of this response) qualified the statement "sex is not dirty" with an "if" clause that essentially says exactly what i said you said.

 

[Smilemaker100]

okay, so you didn't come out and say "sex is dirty and bad." in your reply, however, you stated, "Sex is not dirty if it is an act of love between two people who are committed to one another."

so, are you saying that it is dirty if two people don't love each other and just want to screw each other's brains out for a few hours and then part company forever?

if you are, then i stand by my comments. if you are NOT saying that, then please explain why your comment (quoted here in the first paragraph of this response) qualified the statement "sex is not dirty" with an "if" clause that essentially says exactly what i said you said.

I am entitled to my own opinion and feel like I don't need to defend myself in this case. Everyone else can do what they feel is right.

 

[delchrys]

right. you're 100% right. you can call people like me dirty and bad and then run and hide when we ask you to explain why, or at least to acknowledge that you've done that.

 

[Smilemaker100]

right. you're 100% right. you can call people like me dirty and bad and then run and hide when we ask you to explain why, or at least to acknowledge that you've done that.

I agree to disagree.

 

[relatively prime]

Yes, I agree. But again, let's think GLOBALLY! On a global basis, the majority of women are not "sexually free or liberated" nor do they have access to birth control. It is for this very reason why I think one of the greatest challenges facing humanity is on how to control the growing populations in third world countries where there are famines and other problems. Giving women an education is the key- as early as possible.

Well, the sexual revolution was not a global phenomenon...

 

[relatively prime]

right. you're 100% right. you can call people like me dirty and bad and then run and hide when we ask you to explain why, or at least to acknowledge that you've done that.

lol... oh come on... it's more fun when you think it's dirty. j/k

 

[CoffeeMug]

"It is one of the superstitions of the human mind to have imagined that virginity could be a virtue." - Voltaire

 

[Smilemaker100]

"It is one of the superstitions of the human mind to have imagined that virginity could be a virtue." - Voltaire

"If passion drives you, let reason hold the reins." ~Benjamin Franklin

"Passions are vices or virtues in their highest powers."
- Johann Von Goethe

"The soul of man is divided into three parts, intelligence, reason, and passion. Intelligence and passion are possessed by other animals, but reason by man alone."
-Pythagoras

Sacrificing
Sacrificing hours,
Sacrificing heart,
Sacrificing herself for love of a new start.

Sacrificing todays,
Sacrificing time,
Sacrificing tongue for love of endless rhyme.

Sacrificing somedays,
Sacrificing soul,
Sacrificing sanity for love of the whole.

Sacrificing present,
Sacrificing past,
Sacrificing prophecy for love of he who'll last.

Sacrificing moments,
Sacrificing me,
Sacrificing memories for love of what could be.
~Author Unknown

Reason and Passion

And the priestess spoke again and said: 'Speak to us of Reason and Passion.'
And he answered saying:
Your soul is oftentimes a battlefield, upon which your reason and your judgment wage war against passion and your appetite.
Would that I could be the peacemaker in your soul, that I might turn the discord and the rivalry of your elements into oneness and melody.
But how shall I, unless you yourselves be also the peacemakers, nay, the lovers of all your elements?
Your reason and your passion are the rudder and the sails of your seafaring soul.
If either your sails or our rudder be broken, you can but toss and drift, or else be held at a standstill in mid-seas.
For reason, ruling alone, is a force confining; and passion, unattended, is a flame that burns to its own destruction.
Therefore let your soul exalt your reason to the height of passion; that it may sing;
And let it direct your passion with reason, that your passion may live through its own daily resurrection, and like the phoenix rise above its own ashes.
I would have you consider your judgment and your appetite even as you would two loved guests in your house.
Surely you would not honour one guest above the other; for he who is more mindful of one loses the love and the faith of both.
Among the hills, when you sit in the cool shade of the white poplars, sharing the peace and serenity of distant fields and meadows - then let your heart say in silence, 'God rests in reason.'
And when the storm comes, and the mighty wind shakes the forest, and thunder and lightning proclaim the majesty of the sky, - then let your heart say in awe, 'God moves in passion.'
And since you are a breath In God's sphere, and a leaf in God's forest, you too should rest in reason and move in passion.
Kahlil Gibran

 

[lessismoe]

Smilemaker, could you please clarify your stance on something for me?

I've been reading your comments about early sexualization of tween girls, and I'm not sure if you are blaming the society's portrayal of sexed-up girls in the media, the general sexed-up-ness of the media, or the parents for not shielding their daughters from it/educating them correctly about their sexuality.

And I agree with relatively prime, that you can't look at something cultural with a global perspective. You definitely see regional pockets of the things you mention (child prostitution, etc.), and it often seems to do more with economic desperation and urban isolation (which makes doing things like, say, raping a child, easier to rationalize and accomplish than if one was more socially connected-- but not in all instances, I know) than what is playing at the local theater.

 

[Smilemaker100]

Smilemaker, could you please clarify your stance on something for me?

I've been reading your comments about early sexualization of tween girls, and I'm not sure if you are blaming the society's portrayal of sexed-up girls in the media, the general sexed-up-ness of the media, or the parents for not shielding their daughters from it/educating them correctly about their sexuality.

And I agree with relatively prime, that you can't look at something cultural with a global perspective. You definitely see regional pockets of the things you mention (child prostitution, etc.), and it often seems to do more with economic desperation and urban isolation (which makes doing things like, say, raping a child, easier to rationalize and accomplish than if one was more socially connected-- but not in all instances, I know) than what is playing at the local theater.

Good question, lessismoe. According to me, this early sexualization of tween girls is a combination of all three things you mentioned...

1)society's portrayal of sexed-up girls...do you remember the controversy when there were billboards of Britney Spears as a 17 year old posing in a rather suggestive pose? Or what about a few months ago when there were countdowns to the Olsen twins turning 18 years old and becoming "legal"? What about the media's portrayal of Lindsay Lohan and all those other under-18 year old pop stars? All the talk about Lohan having breast implants etc. There seems to be all this anticipation in the media of these former child stars getting to be the "legal" age to consent to sex.

2)general sexed-up-ness of the media...definitely!

3) parents not shielding their daughters/educating them properly about their sexuality...I think this is is the BIGGEST factor. In my case, I had a stay-at- home mom who was "extravigilant" with me, perhaps too overprotective, but in any case, I think that because of that I had a healthy childhood and adolescence. My mom was definitely more vigilant with me than with my brothers-especially when I dated (more so than my dad!!!!). Whether we like it or not, we live in a world where little girls do have to be more protected. When I was growing up, I didn't understand why my mother was so overprotective and as I had a rebellious nature, it would sometimes be a source of conflict between us. But now that I'm older, I understand and appreciate the way my mother raised me. I was lucky to have had her as my mother. I would behave the same way my mom did if I had a daughter of my own.

My parents really monitored everything I watched on TV as well as the music I listened to. And of course, not to forget, they wanted to know what sort of friends I had as well as the family backgrounds of these friends so they made sure I wasn't hanging out with the "wrong crowd". But I think that as youngsters, you more or less mimic your parents so if your parents aren't too influenced by the media you sort of pick up on that too. My parents raised me to question the media and to have a mind of my own. As a result, I don't give a s**t about cultural fads etc. I am my own person whether anyone else likes it or not!

I think the key to properly raising daughters in this modern age is COMMUNICATION. My parents were very involved with my rearing and we talked openly about everything. Everday after school, there was someone at home who was there to hear me out or console me or advise me. Sadly, a lot of parents have handed over this function to the nurseries and schools. I am not necessarily implying that nurseries and schools don't do an adequate job in monitoring childrens' behavior but it can't compare to one's own parents. What has happened to active parenthood?

 

[relatively prime]

While I do believe it is very important to censor and monitor what your kids are doing/seeing/hearing, it's equally important that parent instill a high amount of genuine self-respect in their kids. That gives a child (and young adult) the strength they need to not give into social pressures that might hurt them. It gives them the confidence to preserve their own personalities, values, and beliefs when the pressure to just join the crowd is everywhere.

 

[Smilemaker100]

While I do believe it is very important to censor and monitor what your kids are doing/seeing/hearing, it's equally important that parent instill a high amount of genuine self-respect in their kids. That gives a child (and young adult) the strength they need to not give into social pressures that might hurt them. It gives them the confidence to preserve their own personalities, values, and beliefs when the pressure to just join the crowd is everywhere.

Absolutely! Can't argue with that.