"There are lots of better careers if you want to make money"

[notdeadyet]

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MOST of the physician jobs out there are primary care. You cannot assume that won't be you. But by contrast, most of the folks in the lower end jobs in corporate america didn't have the credentials to get into med school. So you also cannot assume that would be you.

MOST of the business jobs out there are not six figures. The assumption that somehow a premed would be destined to be one of the movers and shakers in business just because they got in to medical school is as bad logic as assuming someone will get the neurosurgery because they got in to medical school.

Anyway, we agree to disagree. These conversations never seem to be fruitful because folks like the "I know a guy..." approach (not saying you, L2D). Let's look at data.

Find me a list of jobs with average starting salaries in the six figures with the security and availability of a physicians jobs, jobs that are pretty much guaranteed to anyone who gets their degree. Or even close to it. Talk of great $80K jobs don't pan out because even with debt, math will show that a physician will be better off by the end of his career.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but please do not go up to firemen, plumbers, mechanics and whatnot and complain about how they're lucky they're not in a low paying field like medicine. This is exactly why so many people hate doctors. Really.

 

[Perrotfish]

You just have to take the right steps... you have to jump through the hoops and go through the "prerequisites." Interesting. Another job that requires hard work and a logical progression? Not possible.

Not so much ´not possible´as ´less probable´. For me what separates medicine from other career fields, financially, is that medicine in the only field where you can get a high salary by just meeting the requirements. In other fields talented, capable applicants can and often are passed over or even out and out fired, while other less talented people are promoted on the basis of brown nosing, nepotism, or sometimes just plain luck. Engineering is the extreme example of this, but I know it happens in investment banking as well.

Medicine is the only field where those talented individuals not only can do well, but will do well. It´s an IF THEN equation. IF you have the high MCAT and grades THEN you go to a good medical school (really at this point you´ve already landed a 150K/year job). IF your grades and step 1 are high THEN you get the good residency. IF you show up to the residency and don´t kill an erroneous number of people THEN you complete the residency. The first time that the darker side of business starts to affect your salary is when you start trying to get recommendations for a fellowship/make partner, and by then you have secured a lifelong job worth at least 150K/ year, and maybe as much as 600K/year in the case of combined plastics. That, to me, is not equal to a potential and of course even if you can get it you can still be fired at any time high IB salary.

 

[Drogba]

Not exactly true. A lot of people at that other school in New Haven, CT gun for those jobs and make it. I don't see why it would be different at Harvard. That aside, though... you don't have to land a job at a bulgebracket bank right out of the gate. Do a couple years at one of the smaller guys and then move on up. There's fluidity. You're not locked into one school, one residency for 4-7 years.

I don´t understand what you are saying in the bolded part.

The fact that you are "locked" in medicine is part of the appeal. You start at the beginning and end at the end with a job waiting for you. You don't do souless work year after year chasing promotions that you may or may not get. The competition for high finance is extreme as you probably know and the pool of students firms select from is very limited. The medical admissions process is far more egaletarian.

 

[Perrotfish]

The medical admissions process is far more egaletarian.

Or at least more predictable.

 

[Law2Doc]

Find me a list of jobs with average starting salaries in the six figures with the security and availability of a physicians jobs, jobs that are pretty much guaranteed to anyone who gets their degree. Or even close to it. Talk of great $80K jobs don't pan out because even with debt, math will show that a physician will be better off by the end of his career.

This is circular. Once you put the word security in there, it ceases to be a a fair comparison or responsive to OP's question. The notion of maximizing wealth and maximizing security are DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED concepts, for reasons I described higher in the thread. So you either want to make more money, or you want security. You don't get both. Medicine isn't maximizing wealth, but you get decent salary and great security. Other fields have crummy security but the SKY is the limit on wealth. Pick your poison. The point of these threads, I think, is whether you should go into medicine for the money. The answer is simply no, there is more money elsewhere. If you are asking should you go into it for relative security, then sure. But nobody gets excited about job security. They get excited about money. And so this is not for them.

 

[dienekes88]

I don´t understand what you are saying in the bolded part.

I may have read your post a little too fast. I thought you were saying that a lot of Harvard kids get rejected from these jobs. I was saying that I didn't know if that was the case. However, I know that it's the case that many Yale students are successful in landing these jobs.

I apologize for reading too quickly.

I do understand that it's extreme. I just don't think it's as extreme as trying to match Integrated Plastics, Dermatopathology, or NSG.

 

[Drogba]

Well it's egaletarian in the sense that if you the work you are expected your background is not that important. The fact that you graduated from a satellite of the University of Montana doesn't mean you can't make it into harvard, and certainly says nothing about your likelihood of making it in to med school. Good luck landing a job in high finance with that academic pedigree.

 

[halekulani]

The ONLY people that think medicine is a great place to make money are $9 an hour undergrads who say things on this forum like "If I can make 90,000 as a physician, I'll be happy". But those people have never worked a real job and have no idea how much money others are actually making.

this is SO true.

 

[Law2Doc]

The assumption that somehow a premed would be destined to be one of the movers and shakers in business just because they got in to medical school is as bad logic ...

Just FYI it's not just my assumption. I agree with it, but first saw it in print in an article by Atul Gawande (talking about law). Other pundits have echoed this as well. You aren't average, so you can't compare yourself to average in other fields. You have to look at what similarly competitive types have achieved. So I think you really can look at the top 20% of folks starting out in various fields (or whatever is a good rough estimate of folks who would have been able to choose that path or medicine) and consider that a fair comparison.

 

[Drogba]

This is circular. Once you put the word security in there, it ceases to be a a fair comparison or responsive to OP's question. The notion of maximizing wealth and maximizing security are DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED concepts, for reasons I described higher in the thread. So you either want to make more money, or you want security. You don't get both. Medicine isn't maximizing wealth, but you get decent salary and great security. Other fields have crummy security but the SKY is the limit on wealth. Pick your poison. The point of these threads, I think, is whether you should go into medicine for the money. The answer is simply no, there is more money elsewhere. If you are asking should you go into it for relative security, then sure. But nobody gets excited about job security. They get excited about money. And so this is not for them.

There seems to be a semantic misunderstanding here. From my perspective "the money" isn't there if... well... it isn't there, existing only in the realm of potential. A high (or nonexistant) earnings ceiling is great and all but someone could choose to sacrifice earning potential for income stability even if their number one concern is money. It doesn't mean they aren't doing it for the money, it just means they are risk averse.

 

[Perrotfish]

The notion of maximizing wealth and maximizing security are DIAMETRICALLY OPPOSED concepts, for reasons I described higher in the thread.

I´m not sure that anyone else in this thread considers ´making money´and ´maximizing wealth´equivalent concepts. The poster wasn´t talking about the maximum salary he could make, he was talking about the salary he was likely to make, and security enters in to that. If you want the highest probablility of ´maximizing wealth´ with no concern whatsoever for security your best bests are playing the market and starting a small business. As long as you ignore the bottom 90% of people who tried this, these seem like great options.

 

[Law2Doc]

As long as you ignore the bottom 90% of people who tried this, these seem like great options.

Yeah, it's all about risk vs reward, as I mentioned above. If your goal is to "make money" you have to be willing to take whatever risk justifies the potential reward. The folks driving Bentleys and living in mansions all do this. And they aren't physicians. So yes, if your primary goal is to make money, and lots of it, you have to pick a path without low ceiling. If however your goal is job security, and you are happy with the notion of possibly barely making six digits with no real upside (as some primary care folks do) so long as there will be constant demand and you will probably never be fired, then medicine definitely fits the mold.

Sure you can make middle ground arguments, like I want to make the most money I can with great security, but you don't really need a "money" thread for that. Playing it safe means being comfortable, but not rich. Which is why most of us will continually harp on the fact that you don't go into medicine for the money. If money is your goal, there are better routes. If enough to be comfortable and good security is your goal, then money really isn't the primary goal, is it?

 

[Perrotfish]

If enough to be comfortable and good security is your goal, then money really isn't the primary goal, is it?

Um, yes it is. If your primary goal is financial, then money is the primary goal. Money is not your primary goal if you´re Paul Farmer, off in the third world because you went in to medicine to help society, rather than your bank account. However if your goal is a financial security, the key word is financial and you´re going into medicine for the money. There are lots of people out there than at one point or another have had to make due with very little, for example anyone who got to watch one of their parents get ****canned from one of those higher-risk jobs you mentioned, who might be interested in a career for mainly financial reasons but just very risk averse. They´re in medicine for financial security, which means they´re in it for the money.

 

[wisconsindoctor]

Um, yes it is. If your primary goal is financial, then money is the primary goal. Money is not your primary goal if you´re Paul Farmer, off in the third world because you went in to medicine to help society, rather than your bank account. However if your goal is a financial security, the key word is financial and you´re going into medicine for the money. There are lots of people out there than at one point or another have had to make due with very little, for example anyone who got to watch one of their parents get ****canned from one of those higher-risk jobs you mentioned, who might be interested in a career for mainly financial reasons but just very risk averse. They´re in medicine for financial security, which means they´re in it for the money.

People who do the most for this world have the most money. Who do you think pays for having all of the worlds seeds sent to the pole for storage? Do you think some primary care doctor in New York or Los Angeles pays for this service? HECK NO! The richest of the rich get asked to pay for this type of expense.

 

[Law2Doc]

However if your goal is a financial security, the key word is financial and you´re going into medicine for the money. ... They´re in medicine for financial security, which means they´re in it for the money.

No you are misconstruing the terms. not financial security, job security. I agree you get the latter, not the former. They aren't the same thing at all, and I would argue that medicine doesn't offer financial security (esp at its low end), as reimbursements continue to decline. The FPs selling stuff on e-bay to get by (highlighted in a recent NYTimes Magazine) have no financial security, but their job security is fine. If your primary goal is job security then money is not your primary goal. You can be comfortable with great job security in medicine, or you can choose something else with no job security but have better financial upside.

 

[45408]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but please do not go up to firemen, plumbers, mechanics and whatnot and complain about how they're lucky they're not in a low paying field like medicine. This is exactly why so many people hate doctors. Really.

I love the awkward silences when people decide to mention to me that doctors make tons of money. What am I supposed to say? 🙄 Unlike SDN, they actually believe anything over $100K is a lot of money, and $200K/year might as well be winning the Powerball.

 

[notdeadyet]

So you either want to make more money, or you want security. You don't get both.

Sorry, I didn't know folks were taking such a theoretical, black and white look at the issue. If that's the case, business is a bad bet too. The best, really, is the lottery. The odds are long in Powerball, but you have the biggest money. A few steps down from that is starting an Internet start-up.

I took the OPs question to be the more common and sensical one, which is which is the best job to make good money. I don't think he's looking at maximizing revenue, risks be damned.

Everything is a matter of comprimise between money and security. Only a fool would take either extreme. In the middle of that comprimise is work as a doctor. I can't think of any other job on average that reliably pays you as well.

Lottery= better money. DMV= better security. Best money for a reliable career path= physician.

Anyway, I'll sign off. This started out as a discussion about professional prospects but now the conversation is starting to approach college dorm philosophy discussions...

 

[notdeadyet]

I love the awkward silences when people decide to mention to me that doctors make tons of money. What am I supposed to say? 🙄 Unlike SDN, they actually believe anything over $100K is a lot of money, and $200K/year might as well be winning the Powerball.

Yeah, there's no way to get in to interest rates, lost opportunity, etc. Folks tend to just look at the W-2. Can't win.

 

[45408]

If enough to be comfortable and good security is your goal, then money really isn't the primary goal, is it?

I disagree. I think money can be your primary motivator without wanting hoards of cash. Someone's goal could easily be to make at least $100K/year but anything above that is just a perk.

 

[45408]

Yeah, there's no way to get in to interest rates, lost opportunity, etc. Folks tend to just look at the W-2. Can't win.

The last few times it's come up was while I was talking to someone making under $10/hr as an ambulance driver, so relative to them, doctors are making tons of money.

 

[45408]

Anyway, I'll sign off. This started out as a discussion about professional prospects but now the conversation is starting to approach college dorm philosophy discussions...

Does everybody see the same colors? Like REALLY the same? How do you know that your green is the same as my green? Hey, let me take another hit.

 

[dienekes88]

Sorry, I didn't know folks were taking such a theoretical, black and white look at the issue. If that's the case, business is a bad bet too. The best, really, is the lottery. The odds are long in Powerball, but you have the biggest money. A few steps down from that is starting an Internet start-up.

I took the OPs question to be the more common and sensical one, which is which is the best job to make good money. I don't think he's looking at maximizing revenue, risks be damned.

Everything is a matter of comprimise between money and security. Only a fool would take either extreme. In the middle of that comprimise is work as a doctor. I can't think of any other job on average that reliably pays you as well.

Lottery= better money. DMV= better security. Best money for a reliable career path= physician.

Anyway, I'll sign off. This started out as a discussion about professional prospects but now the conversation is starting to approach college dorm philosophy discussions...

Expected value. Lottery = terrible. When Powerball or Megamillions hits $300 or $350 Million... you're getting a $2 expected value. However, I've lost $26 this way. Grrr...

 

[dienekes88]

Does everybody see the same colors? Like REALLY the same? How do you know that your green is the same as my green? Hey, let me take another hit.

Dude. That's deep. That's way deep. Pass the bong.

Maybe it's not the colors we see... but the colors that we think we want to see that we actually see.

Or maybe... it's just the government trying to tell us to see colors...

 

[notdeadyet]

Does everybody see the same colors? Like REALLY the same? How do you know that your green is the same as my green? Hey, let me take another hit.

That's such a white capitalist male interpretation of the word "color", dude. Like, get off of my cloud...

 

[45408]

That's such a white capitalist male interpretation of the word "color", dude. Like, get off of my cloud...

dude, you totally forgot the "misogynist and homophobic" aspect of my viewpoint

 

[Law2Doc]

Sorry, I didn't know folks were taking such a theoretical, black and white look at the issue. If that's the case, business is a bad bet too. The best, really, is the lottery. The odds are long in Powerball, but you have the biggest money.

You are being sarcastic, but actually this is not as far off as you might think. The notion of risk and reward is that you have to weigh risks versus rewards. If the reward is big enough, it will justify greater risk. So eg. when the powerball gets to a big enough pot, more people play, because suddenly the potential reward is worth those long odds to them. (They might be wrong, statistically, but they are making the analysis in terms of whether the reward outweighs the risk of investment). So too with business. If the upside is good enough and the odds of success are reasonable (better than powerball but hardly what you would call security), then folks will put their money where their mouth is. This is what venture capital is all about. You pitch an idea, and if it sounds like a viable business, and if the demand for the product/services is sufficient to make good return on investment, VC folks will put capital into the idea.

And it is also how many people evaluate their career paths. If an opportunity has high upside and if the risk of failure is appropriate based on the degree of confidence the person has in their own abilities, then they may choose to invest their human capital toward the effort. If they choose a lower income with less risk, they are not leaning toward the reward aspect of the equation, and hence are not "doing it for the money". Medicine is such a decision. If they choose more risk, because the reward is greater, then they are "doing it for the money". Medicine is not such a career choice, but many things in business would be.

 

[Doublecortin]

In my prior career, I've worked on financial restructurings and bankruptcies of physicians, who were financially ruined. These folks were circling the drain financially for quite a while before they pulled the plug. Nothing is guaranteed.

I am curious, Law2Doc, if those physicians were of a particular specialty(s)

 

[Drogba]

Does everybody see the same colors? Like REALLY the same? How do you know that your green is the same as my green? Hey, let me take another hit.

 

[189362]

money money money, who cares I want happiness

 

[coldweatherblue]

If they choose a lower income with less risk, they are not leaning toward the reward aspect of the equation, and hence are not "doing it for the money". Medicine is such a decision. If they choose more risk, because the reward is greater, then they are "doing it for the money". Medicine is not such a career choice, but many things in business would be.

It's amusing that a career that has an average salary of around 150k/year with many specialties making easily 2-300k/year + benefits is described as "lower income". Yes I know there is an opportunity cost.

Medicine offers a very stable career with excellent compensation and low risks (assuming that one actually becomes an attending).

Business offers great rewards for a select few and lots of risk and low rewards for the great majority. Most of my friend's in undergrad were in business/marketing/etc and after graduating they are looking at $50k/year jobs. There's the possibility that they'll move up the ladder and MAYBE make $150k after 15 years; there's also the possibility that after 10 years they'll be passed over and eventually canned.

 

[smsc2009]

I'm sure most of you have heard this quote many times and plenty of you here have said it. However, nobody that says it ever seems to have any clue what these other careers are. Common sense tells you this is not true, even when you factor in the debt; just about every single top 10 list of average salaries out there is all physicians.

So, defend yourselves people, what exactly are these career paths.

And don't say law if you have any clue what you're talking about.

No matter how you look at it, this is true. If you talk to physicians today who practiced in the "good ole days" they will tell you they do not make as much as they once did. Medicine as a business has declined so much since then. Not to mention the fact that the hours that doctors work are insane. They are plenty of other careers one could go into if they just wanted money. If you want to suceed in medicine you must have a passion.

 

[SurferDocAli]

The logic of my heart cannot begin to understand why ANYONE would go into medicine for anything (money, prestige, etc.) but the sake of medicine and helping people.

I understand many people do it or try to, but really, really? Are you serious? If God allows me to become a Dr, I really hope I am working with other doctors who want to be there for the same (if not better or just more personalized) reason as I do! I eventually want to work with Médecins Sans Frontières aka Doctors Without Borders, so I probably will. Plus, I think Ill be blessed to be with some good drs before then...FOR SURE. So far, so good.

 

[Quadratic]

It's amusing that a career that has an average salary of around 150k/year with many specialties making easily 2-300k/year + benefits is described as "lower income". Yes I know there is an opportunity cost.

Medicine offers a very stable career with excellent compensation and low risks (assuming that one actually becomes an attending).

Business offers great rewards for a select few and lots of risk and low rewards for the great majority. Most of my friend's in undergrad were in business/marketing/etc and after graduating they are looking at $50k/year jobs. There's the possibility that they'll move up the ladder and MAYBE make $150k after 15 years; there's also the possibility that after 10 years they'll be passed over and eventually canned.

It's not about the amount made. It's about the efficiency. Payoff, if you will. Your argumen tis kind of like the argument for electric cars. They're pretty efficient if you ignore that the efficiency in generating electricity itself is around 30%. The truth is that most doctors are going to graduate with 150-200K in debt, invest incalculable sums of energy into studies (energy which could've been directed somewhere else, perhaps another job making money. That makes your efficiency zero during these times). After eight years of hard labor, you are rewarded with <50K. For most, after 6 years of school, they are already at this point (i.e. engineers). Finally, after a decade, you might be able to breach the 100K mark.

Even with that, the payoff won't be realized until years later. It's kind of hard to see your friends who graduated with less debt and suffering making twice your salary (and don't forget their salaries will probably be increasing with time too).

 

[coldweatherblue]

The truth is that most doctors are going to graduate with 150-200K in debt, invest incalculable sums of energy into studies (energy which could've been directed somewhere else, perhaps another job making money. That makes your efficiency zero during these times).

fwiw, I addressed this issue in my post by stating, "Yes I know there is an opportunity cost."

I understand what you're saying, but personally I would much rather spend all my energy studying and learning what I consider to be useful skills than investing energy into making money for the sake of making money (which I find unnatural). orking at a desk job in a corporate office for the best years of my life trying to sell people crap they don't need would be a complete waste, no matter how much money I made. If I won a million dollars right now I am sure that at 90 years old I would look back on it as the worst thing that ever happened to me. Money buys a lot of random stuff, but for one who is both idealistic and ambitious it does not buy anything resembling self-respect. Anything worth doing is difficult. Anyway I don't mean for this to be a "Why do you want to be a doctor?" reply, I just completely disagree that "efficiency is zero" for anyone pursuing education, much less a medical student. Feeling that one is successfully applying oneself towards ones full potential while pursuing a socially important career (that happens to highly compensate) is priceless. And yes I am MS0 at the moment and I know med school will beat a lot of this out of me.

 

[jamesgatz4]

This discussion is bordering on insane. Assuming that intelligent and driven individuals would be equally successful in professions as disparate as medicine and IB/law (I can see IB and law being compared), is ridiculous.

To the person that insinuated an average med student could get into the type of law school that would virtually guarantee a big law position (there are 10, maybe 14 of these types of schools), that's simply incorrect. There are plenty of individuals that could study extensively and do well on the MCAT, but even with a high-priced prep course not crack 160 on the LSAT, not to mention the 170 that the top 10 law schools require. In contrast, there are students able to score high 170s with no prep that would never have the work ethic to prepare for the MCAT.

Even if one does obtain a big law position, most end up leaving after 3-5 years and make $150k/year, maybe $200k with stock options, as an assistant general counsel or, if they're lucky, $200k as a partner at a smaller firm. Assuming partner at an AmLaw or Vault firm is like assuming a wildly successful specialist.

After all this, it's important to note that very few individuals would be successful both in the operating room and in a windowless office doing document review 16 hours/day. Very different people go into medicine and law.

Investment banking is even more dissimilar when compared to medicine. I interviewed at multiple bulge brackets as an undergrad and have quite a few colleagues in IB, so I know the industry well. Most investment bankers would not have the intelligence for med school, and most physicians would never consider making pitchbooks and modeling in Excel for 100+ hours/week. Not to mention the fact that IB limits you to a select few cities worldwide. Finally, most IBers burn out in a matter of years and up in the strategy (if they're lucky) or finance (if they're not) groups at F500s making $150k for the remainder of their careers. The small fraction that end up in private equity or hedge funds would best be compared to a superstar CT surgeon or something similar. For every Bruce Wasserstein or Stephen Schwartman there are hundreds, if not thousands, of Wall Streeters that burn out and never see big money.

Comparisons to fields like dentistry are valid ... comparisons to big law and Wall Street are simply foolish.

 

[skyeblue0610]

I'm sure most of you have heard this quote many times and plenty of you here have said it. However, nobody that says it ever seems to have any clue what these other careers are. Common sense tells you this is not true, even when you factor in the debt; just about every single top 10 list of average salaries out there is all physicians.

So, defend yourselves people, what exactly are these career paths.

And don't say law if you have any clue what you're talking about.

Anything business😱 I'd rather be a kindergarten teacher over a business person.....I love hospitals just because. So it's so not just about the money

 

[Perrotfish]

The logic of my heart cannot begin to understand why ANYONE would go into medicine for anything (money, prestige, etc.) but the sake of medicine and helping people.

I understand many people do it or try to, but really, really? Are you serious? If God allows me to become a Dr, I really hope I am working with other doctors who want to be there for the same (if not better or just more personalized) reason as I do! I eventually want to work with Médecins Sans Frontières aka Doctors Without Borders, so I probably will. Plus, I think Ill be blessed to be with some good drs before then...FOR SURE. So far, so good.

If you do, God Bless. However we´ve all watched the 95% of premeds lose this ambition the day that acceptance letters are mailed out, and 95% of whats left lose the ambition when they get married/have kids/get jaded by their internship.

Also, to be honest, you might want to save the self rightous attitude until you´ve actually, you know, sacrificed something for these goals. It grates, it really does. When you´ve survived temptation and you´re out there working with Paul Farmer and sleeping on dirt floors, THEN start lecturing people.

 

[SurferDocAli]

If you do, God Bless. However we´ve all watched the 95% of premeds lose this ambition the day that acceptance letters are mailed out, and 95% of whats left lose the ambition when they get married/have kids/get jaded by their internship.

Also, to be honest, you might want to save the self rightous attitude until you´ve actually, you know, sacrificed something for these goals. It grates, it really does. When you´ve survived temptation and you´re out there working with Paul Farmer and sleeping on dirt floors, THEN start lecturing people.

I am not going to that extreme with what I said. I am saying I dont see how people who want money and prestige (alone) pursue medicine for it. I do see...but I dont see...as in I dont see myself doing that. I work with mentally challenged people right now and have felt some of the pressure of life, for sure. I am sure you misunderstand me. I am lecturing no one. I have worked with people in healthcare who do not care...and I have the same exact job as them. I and some of my coworkers will go the extra mile...because that is why we are there...not for our crappy paychecks.

 

[SurferDocAli]

Oh, yes. As for family and all that, I am an exception. I know the feeling of wanting to get home right away to loved ones but if you do your job right and take care of the person you are working with...you will be late to get home sometimes. When it comes to kids and I have no one to watch them but myself, I have to put it on someone else at work...but pretty much everyone outside of that comes second...even tho I rather be with whoever. I am the person I am taking care of's family. If they are having problems, I need to help them now. Anyway, I am scrooge.... Working in healthcare has proved more important than bfs. In fact, work has gotten me through a lot. I can put my care toward someone who deserves it. For me, if my beau doesnt understand that...they are not for me.

BTW, I am a nontrad old woman. None of my family is over here. I have my dog...and my friends and family at work. I am a hag who will eventually and probably one day work with MSF...I know I will work here first...likely...whether as a doctor or not...but again that totally wasnt the point. I was talking about people who dont even really like medicine. That is like someone who is horrible with numbers wanting to be an accountant. orrr someone who doesnt like animals being a vet! = it make-uh no sense!

 

[Perrotfish]

I was talking about people who dont even really like medicine. That is like someone who is horrible with numbers wanting to be an accountant.

The part in bold is not equivalent to the part not in bold. You can be good at something, find it tolerable, consider it a good living, and not be particularly enamored with it. The part in bold IS equivalent an accountant who doesn´t particularly like being an account, even though he is good with numbers. Most accountants don´t particularly like being accounts. The might be good with numbers, and find the work tolerable, but very few people declare that they would remain accountants if they won powerball tomorrow. Same with sales reps, invetment bankers, and most kinds of lawyers. Only doctors feel this strange need to declare that they would do it for free. Which, in general, the wouldn´t.

 

[SurferDocAli]

The part in bold is not equivalent to the part not in bold. You can be good at something, find it tolerable, consider it a good living, and not be particularly enamored with it. The part in bold IS equivalent an accountant who doesn´t particularly like being an account, even though he is good with numbers. Most accountants don´t particularly like being accounts. The might be good with numbers, and find the work tolerable, but very few people declare that they would remain accountants if they won powerball tomorrow. Same with sales reps, invetment bankers, and most kinds of lawyers. Only doctors feel this strange need to declare that they would do it for free. Which, in general, the wouldn´t.

bad comparison the vet one was better

u must be bored!! Do you understand what I mean tho? yes? no?

 

[veggieswirl]

... which is an actuarial speciality, and most actuarial fellows make at least 200K when they hit 40... casualty fellows make at least as much as primary care doctors with no debt. A casualty fellow is the guy who sets the rates on insurance... the guys setting the rates on malpractice insurance make 420K a year at the very very minimum. If you don't be believe me, look at malpractice insurance. Ask hospital administrators how much a hospital spends on risk analysis. A Ferrari Enzo is not cheap. Go look at the special Aon lot in downtown LA. There's a movie out tomorrow called 21... some of those guys are casualty actuaries now. Actuaries cheat on their taxes on swear. No way they only bring home 130K like the BLS(bls.gov) tells you. They don't want people to think that all the money they pay in insurance goes into someone's pocket. It does, i'm damn sure of it.

 

[wisconsindoctor]

... which is an actuarial speciality, and most actuarial fellows make at least 200K when they hit 40... casualty fellows make at least as much as primary care doctors with no debt. A casualty fellow is the guy who sets the rates on insurance... the guys setting the rates on malpractice insurance make 420K a year at the very very minimum. If you don't be believe me, look at malpractice insurance. Ask hospital administrators how much a hospital spends on risk analysis. A Ferrari Enzo is not cheap. Go look at the special Aon lot in downtown LA. There's a movie out tomorrow called 21... some of those guys are casualty actuaries now. Actuaries cheat on their taxes on swear. No way they only bring home 130K like the BLS(bls.gov) tells you. They don't want people to think that all the money they pay in insurance goes into someone's pocket. It does, i'm damn sure of it.

Oh oh, the pre-meds have just learned some inside information. Many of the might blow a head of steam reading this. They might be thinking, how dare does a person, with no medical training and education, determine risk analysis in the healthcare industry. Guess what folks, the work done for casualty actuaries is not easy. I find this work much harder than reading a CT scan to see if a patient has a tumor or not, or even reading an x-ray to show if there is fluid in the chest area or to see what type of facture the person has.

 

[wisconsindoctor]

The subject matter covered on each of the nine CAS examinations is as follows:
1Probability2Financial Mathematics3Statistics and Actuarial Models4Construction and Evaluation of Actuarial Models5Introduction to Property and Casualty Insurance Ratemaking;6Reserving, Insurance Accounting Principles, Reinsurance, and Enterprise Risk Management7Nation-specific Examination (either Canada version or United States version): Annual Statement, Taxation, and Regulation8Investments and Financial Analysis9Advanced Ratemaking, Rate of Return, and Individual Risk Rating Plans

 

[lacesoutdan]

Oh oh, the pre-meds have just learned some inside information. Many of the might blow a head of steam reading this. They might be thinking, how dare does a person, with no medical training and education, determine risk analysis in the healthcare industry. Guess what folks, the work done for casualty actuaries is not easy. I find this work much harder than reading a CT scan to see if a patient has a tumor or not, or even reading an x-ray to show if there is fluid in the chest area or to see what type of facture the person has.

When I read your first post in this thread a couple days ago, I thought you made some good points. But after checking back today and reading more posts like this one, I wonder if someone is being a bitter little beaver because he couldn't get into medical school.

 

[veggieswirl]

... and you weren't directing it at me. I'm just going to say if you're smart enough to be going to medical school or seriously considering it, there's lots of other cool jobs open to you as well. Actuary has to be one of the most overlooked professions out there. Not everyone is a millionaire or anything in it, but like some one said earlier it's a solid profession and most make very decent money by 30. Before i'd consider applying to med school, and i have to be rejected from vet school ten times... i used to be pre-med though... then i was looking at pt or ot, and i seriously still am, but i passed the first SOA exam, I COULD NEVER DO CASUALTY THOUGH. Vet school would rock... i don't like naked people so i don't think i'd even like being a doctor.

 

[wisconsindoctor]

When I read your first post in this thread a couple days ago, I thought you made some good points. But after checking back today and reading more posts like this one, I wonder if someone is being a bitter little beaver because he couldn't get into medical school.

Sarcasm, son, sarcasm. Yes risk analysis is more complicated than reading a test result. I'm a realist.

 

[chaicos]

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Emergency_Medical_Technician_(EMT)_/_Paramedic/Salary

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Fire_Fighter/Salary

According to these links, median paramedic starting salary is $29,871 and $49,495 after 20 or more years. For firefighters, it's $38,667 and $63,927 respectively.

And according to salary.com, 2.9% of EMTs get pensions (couldn't find firefighters). So your numbers sound a little weird. They certainly don't reflect the norm for that profession.

I have no reason to lie. Double certified Paramedic/ Firefighters in BIG cities make this kind of money. YES, WE DO GET EXPOSED TO A LOT OF STUFF...
Still, I make the same amount of money that my brother makes as an engineer.
Those surveys are nothing more than AVERAGES. Many rural areas have volunteer fire departments and EMS.
Also, two 24 hours shifts on a week leaves you with plenty of time to make more money on a side job or with your own company. Finally, going to the firehous is like hanging out with all your best friends. If I did not get accepted I would stay as a happy Fireman.

Good luck .

 

[veggieswirl]

The guy who founded the Casualty Actuarial Society was a doctor... i'm too busy to do the search and get his name, but yeah a doctor. And i found SDN by googling a certain medical school in St. Louis and its stereotypes. You see, actuaries are stereotyped as being about as lively as a corpse. There's a bunch of jokes like how do actuaries liven up parties? invite accountants. There's a young stud who went to that medical school making a ton as an actuary at my dads friends work... and i met him at a party about a year ago and he will put you in a coma with one sentence.

 

[DescentFan]

The best way to make money is to join a crime family (I'm reading The Godfather right now, so hence...). 😀

But in all seriousness, I think personal investing is a necessary knowledge for professionals to have. I myself intend to invest and understand capitalism a bit better to protect my investments and interests.