PhD/PsyD Third LOR Advice

[PsyHike]

Hello, everyone.

I have finished my Master's degree last year and will be applying (again) for clinical Ph.D. programs next Fall. As of now, I have two tenured professors who agreed to write letters of recommendation, but my third choice said she will be way too busy for this during the next application season. I am now applying for volunteer research assistant positions to gain more experience and hopefully ask for the letter of recommendation when the time comes. Right now I have an opportunity to work for a Ph.D. student on a very interesting project. As far as I know, letters of recommendations from Ph.D. students don't really count in the admission process. My question is: Should I mention to this student that I am ultimately looking for LOR during next application cycle, or should I start the project and hope that I'll be able to secure a LOR with the student's supervisor next Fall?

Thank you!

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[psych.meout]

Why can't this person just write the letter now and make little updates (if necessary) later on?

One of my letter writers was a tech-naive older adult who submitted everything to 16 programs in a single afternoon, not including actually writing my LOR.

 

[PsyHike]

Why can't this person just write the letter now and make little updates (if necessary) later on?

One of my letter writers was a tech-naive older adult who submitted everything to 16 programs in a single afternoon, not including actually writing my LOR.

I guess they think that it takes too much time to send everything out – I won't argue with them, as this is really not the time or the place. They have been graceful enough to write me LORs for the previous two cycles, so I am grateful for that

 

[psych.meout]

I guess they think that it takes too much time to send everything out – I won't argue with them, as this is really not the time or the place. They have been graceful enough to write me LORs for the previous two cycles, so I am grateful for that

I'm skeptical that someone who already was your LOR couldn't find an afternoon somewhere within September through December to submit a LOR again, but whatever.

 

[PsyHike]

I'm skeptical that someone who already was your LOR couldn't find an afternoon somewhere within September through December to submit a LOR again, but whatever.

I share your skepticism, but arguing about it with that person won't do any good at this point.

 

[jdawg2017]

Is there anyone else who can write your third letter? Someone who will know you for less than 6 months by the time you are applying cannot possibly give you a solid letter of recommendation (I know I would not feel comfortable with writing such a letter in the future, much less asking for one from someone who has known me less than 1 year).

Unless your previous third is refusing because she is trying to politely say she cannot give a strong letter, I would honestly say to ask again and even propose that you can draft a major body of it (e.g., putting all your CV stuff into a letter form) and she can add her take. Though its weird to draft a letter for yourself, this is becoming increasingly more common given PIs time demands.

 

[PsyHike]

Is there anyone else who can write your third letter? Someone who will know you for less than 6 months by the time you are applying cannot possibly give you a solid letter of recommendation (I know I would not feel comfortable with writing such a letter in the future, much less asking for one from someone who has known me less than 1 year).

Unless your previous third is refusing because she is trying to politely say she cannot give a strong letter, I would honestly say to ask again and even propose that you can draft a major body of it (e.g., putting all your CV stuff into a letter form) and she can add her take. Though its weird to draft a letter for yourself, this is becoming increasingly more common given PIs time demands.

I wish there was someone else, but no. My only bet is to find someone to work with right about now (have been searching since February).

My third recommender was already peeved that I asked her to write me a letter the second time and stated numerous times that she is very busy. While I worked for her, she was very pleased with my performance and praised me numerous times, so I don't think it's a matter of not being able to write me a strong letter. Circumstances change. If I will have no other options, I will try to ask her again, but it's the very last resort at this point.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Sounds like the previous third writer is a no-go, so I would consider that option exhausted and move on (as you've done).

A letter from a Ph.D. student isn't great, but it'd be better than no letter at all. I disagree that you can't get a relatively solid rec letter after 4-6 months of contact, as this happens on internship (and even in grad school) fairly frequently. The crux will be how much contact you have during that time with the person writing the letter. It's of course an abbreviated time frame, so the more contact you can work in, the better.

If, as you've said, you could get a letter from the student's advisor (with whom you'll hopefully also have contact), even better. I would definitely let the student know that you'll be applying to programs in the fall and ask if a recommendation at that point would be a possibility. If they're against it from the start, you'll have that information going in and won't need to scramble upon finding it out at the last minute. And if they know you'll be wanting a rec, it gives them time to prepare, and to potentially evaluate you in that context in the interim.

 

[PsyHike]

Sounds like the previous third writer is a no-go, so I would consider that option exhausted and move on (as you've done).

A letter from a Ph.D. student isn't great, but it'd be better than no letter at all. I disagree that you can't get a relatively solid rec letter after 4-6 months of contact, as this happens on internship (and even in grad school) fairly frequently. The crux will be how much contact you have during that time with the person writing the letter. It's of course an abbreviated time frame, so the more contact you can work in, the better.

If, as you've said, you could get a letter from the student's advisor (with whom you'll hopefully also have contact), even better. I would definitely let the student know that you'll be applying to programs in the fall and ask if a recommendation at that point would be a possibility. If they're against it from the start, you'll have that information going in and won't need to scramble upon finding it out at the last minute. And if they know you'll be wanting a rec, it gives them time to prepare, and to potentially evaluate you in that context in the interim.

Thank you for your reply and advice! I will try the direct approach with the Ph.D. student (as you suggested), and we'll see how it goes.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Thank you for your reply and advice! I will try the direct approach with the Ph.D. student (as you suggested), and we'll see how it goes.

Although keep in mind that I'm not in academia, so folks more integrated into that culture may have a more informative take than mine.

 

[Seven_Costanza]

I’m a PhD student who has written a number of letters for students who got into awesome clinical programs (USC, UCSD, UT Austin, etc). I don’t imagine my letters were a major influence, but they certainly didn’t hurt. Point is that if the other 2 letters are solid, and you do excellent work for the PhD student, the student letter shouldn’t hurt you.

 

[PsyHike]

I’m a PhD student who has written a number of letters for students who got into awesome clinical programs (USC, UCSD, UT Austin, etc). I don’t imagine my letters were a major influence, but they certainly didn’t hurt. Point is that if the other 2 letters are solid, and you do excellent work for the PhD student, the student letter shouldn’t hurt you.

Thank you for your reply! It's certainly reassuring

 

[WisNeuro]

I was in charge of the undergrads for the most in our labs in grad school. What happened was that I usually wrote the letter of rec, sent it to the faculty advisor, and she maybe added something here or there and sent it off with her name on it. Depends on the lab and how they function, but just because you interact with the student 95% of the time, doesn't always mean that the faculty will not sign off on it. As @AcronymAllergy said, be up front about your future plans and hopes for this lab, it may lead to more interactions with the faculty and a more nuanced letter....as long as you go above and beyond. You'd be surprised at how many students think they'll get an amazing letter for doing the bare minimum.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I was in charge of the undergrads for the most in our labs in grad school. What happened was that I usually wrote the letter of rec, sent it to the faculty advisor, and she maybe added something here or there and sent it off with her name on it. Depends on the lab and how they function, but just because you interact with the student 95% of the time, doesn't always mean that the faculty will not sign off on it. As @AcronymAllergy said, be up front about your future plans and hopes for this lab, it may lead to more interactions with the faculty and a more nuanced letter....as long as you go above and beyond. You'd be surprised at how many students think they'll get an amazing letter for doing the bare minimum.

+1 to this. If you're hoping for a letter, go above and beyond whenever you can.