Thoughts on Fellowship given job market

[FutureDPM323]

The job market sucks so bad that I’m considering doing a fellowship. I’m currently at a pretty good program. I’m getting good training or what I feel to be is good training. So I don’t feel like I need to do a fellowship from that perspective.

Having said that, the job market is so god awful in talking with friends around the country and even when I’ve been searching, that I’m considering applying to them. I guess my correct thought process is what’s another year of ****ty pay when i’m going to be out practicing with ****ty pay but with a fellowship I’ll be doing cases and maybe getting another mentor out of it? Additionally, I feel like with the job market being sooooooo saturated that at some point a fellowship will be used to distinguish applicants in the future. That time isn’t there yet and who knows if it’ll ever happen given our field is so small and jobs are usually via word of mouth so it probably won’t ever even matter.

I know there’s only a few that are even worthwhile and those are the ones i’d be applying to but I just feel so defeated 🙁 I worked hard in school, got a really good residency and know I’m getting good training yet my job prospects/future in this field are looking abysmal.

What do you guys think about this? Or should I just hunker down and try to find the best job possible instead of delaying the inevitable by a year…

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[Hybrocure]

A fellowship never hurts you. I was personally just fed up and exhausted with resident life by the time I finished I had no desire to endure another year of it.

As with good residencies, a good fellowship means good training. Those who get into good fellowships also likely graduated from good residencies. For every fellow with an ortho job there’s another fellow at entry level PP job too so do keep that in mind. Going to a top fellowship will almost always get you a great job but those types of people would’ve landed a great job regardless because they’re confident and well trained straight out of residency.

Going to a middle of the road or first assist type fellowship will not guarantee a good job

 

[Pronation]

That’s a tough choice. 5 years ago I would have said definitely not to a fellowship in this scenario. The saturation today is insane. I’m still leaning towards no fellowship though. Better to get the extra year of experience and get closer to become board certified with a real surgical board vs hoping that a hospital doesn’t know any better when trying to use a back door surgical board cert.

 

[air bud]

How good of a program are you going to? Are others from there doing fellowships already? It's a good ole boys network. There is no doubt that being in the circle of trust can help find jobs. It's a risk if only doing it for job prospects.

 

[GreenHousePub]

Fellowship is a must. I'd actually recommend a fellowship after your fellowship as well. Make sure to put on your LinkedIn that you are fellowship trained as well.

 

[Shiyuan]

Fellowship is a must. I'd actually recommend a fellowship after your fellowship as well. Make sure to put on your LinkedIn that you are fellowship trained as well.

Also be sure it says foot and ankle surgeon.

 

[wakaflocka88]

Also be sure it says foot and ankle surgeon.

****fellowship-trained reconstructive foot and ankle surgeon. Not even the letter P is visible anymore.

 

[HardRoadPaved]

I'd do that 2 week one from Bako so you can get back to the job market ASAP and say you are fellowship trained

 

[Prehealth1011]

If you're okay with 1-2 additional years, you can become an anesthesiology assistant or a PA

 

[PTPuser]

If you're okay with 1-2 additional years, you can become an anesthesiology assistant or a PA

You beat me to it. I was gonna say this. Was gonna get an RN part time while I clip nails from my van.

 

[FutureDPM323]

A fellowship never hurts you. I was personally just fed up and exhausted with resident life by the time I finished I had no desire to endure another year of it.

As with good residencies, a good fellowship means good training. Those who get into good fellowships also likely graduated from good residencies. For every fellow with an ortho job there’s another fellow at entry level PP job too so do keep that in mind. Going to a top fellowship will almost always get you a great job but those types of people would’ve landed a great job regardless because they’re confident and well trained straight out of residency.

Going to a middle of the road or first assist type fellowship will not guarantee a good job

Yea if I were to apply, it would be to the fellowships that people consider “top” or at least ones where I know Id be getting surgical training. Only considering it so I would do another year of quality surgery/training. Would go suffer at some PP job otherwise.

That’s a tough choice. 5 years ago I would have said definitely not to a fellowship in this scenario. The saturation today is insane. I’m still leaning towards no fellowship though. Better to get the extra year of experience and get closer to become board certified with a real surgical board vs hoping that a hospital doesn’t know any better when trying to use a back door surgical board cert.

The job market sucks so bad. If there were decent jobs out there, I wouldn’t even think of doing one because there really is no need for it what’s so ever. When I was a student and even when I interviewed for residency, fellowship was not on my mind. In fact, I worked hard to get the past residency I could so I didn’t feel like I needed any additional training and yet here I am anyways…all because i don’t want to face my reality and would rather do another year of training all because that sounds more appealing than whatever crappy job awaits me 🙃

How good of a program are you going to? Are others from there doing fellowships already? It's a good ole boys network. There is no doubt that being in the circle of trust can help find jobs. It's a risk if only doing it for job prospects.

My residency program? Yes people here have gotten fellowships if they want one. I’d say they’ve gotten strong ones too. Most don’t feel like they need one though. I would never suggest to do it for job prospects. But I do agree the fellowships are feeling like a boys club and residents from the same programs end up at the top fellowships.

 

[FutureDPM323]

If you're okay with 1-2 additional years, you can become an anesthesiology assistant or a PA

I wish I had left sooner to pursue a different career path but now feel like it’s too late. Unless I finish off residency and go back to school. I mean whats another year on top of the additional year im considering. Maybe by the time I’m 40 i’ll finally have a steady job with good income…because podiatry

 

[Feli]

It's not worth doing fellowship for the job prospects.

As was said, very dicey... but it's sure to compound loans/interest and delay you further from ABFAS.
"Pretty good program" won't match you into one of the 5 or 10 DPM fellowship spots (spots, not programs) worth doing. Sorry.
Mediocre or good-not-great fellowship won't help much in job search (mostly personal enrichment... which you don't need). Your good residency connect/alumni is obviously not helping much, and fellowship has fewer connects. With any fellowship you can get into, you are just kicking the can down the road, and you will have to face the same job market anyways.

If you did a good residency, you can take a job that's ok as pay and temp bridge (supergroup or med/large DPM group with 150-200k base, rural hospital, VA/IHS, cold call MSGs and small hospitals, etc). You should be competitive for any of those, especially DPM groups and IHS, with a good 3yr program and in-training that prove you'll pass ABFAS BQ for RRA. That will get you some income, some ABFAS numbers, some experience on your CV, some vacation days to look for better jobs.

Good luck... I know it sucks to see nearly 11yrs of work turn out this way.
I was in the same boat (a few times), but I was fortunate to only have half the loans of grads today.

 

[billBOB213]

Also be sure it says foot and ankle surgeon.

And make sure you have a stethoscope around your neck!
Always looks legit IMO

 

[Prehealth1011]

I wish I had left sooner to pursue a different career path but now feel like it’s too late. Unless I finish off residency and go back to school. I mean whats another year on top of the additional year im considering. Maybe by the time I’m 40 i’ll finally have a steady job with good income…because podiatry

Would a fellowship guarantee a job/better job though? In a field where it seems like nothing is guaranteed, fellowship sounds like you're digging yourself into a further hole

 

[Feli]

Would a fellowship guarantee a job/better job though? In a field where it seems like nothing is guaranteed, fellowship sounds like you're digging yourself into a further hole

Fellowship for podiatry leads to nothing... no additional cert or sub-speciality or skill that couldn't have been had in residency.

It's a bit like how PharmDs were doing residency when their field was getting highly saturated. It could work for a better job or connections to get one, but more likely just another year of debt and low income... only to face the same dismal job market. That latter is how it ended up for most of them... just as fellowship is proving to be for most DPMs.

For MD and DO, fellowship makes total sense if you want to go from IM to Endo, ortho to Spine, gen surg to vasc, etc.

 

[icebreaker32]

I would listen to Feli

Some also apply to both jobs and fellowships, doing the fellowship only if they don’t get a good enough job (whatever that means salary/location etc). Realistically if they apply for jobs again the following year they will have to be less picky and cast a wider net.

There may come. a point eventually where you need a fellowship for many of the better jobs, but working towards and eventually getting ABFAS RRA should separate you for now.


Things out of your control

Connections and brand name residencies go a long way when another podiatrist is reviewing you residency. Out of your control.

What the jobs use to filter. Out of your control.


What is in your control?

Working towards ABFAS RRA.

Being geographically open

Cold calling…..it is not only the work of a whole life insurance salesman, but a young podiatrist also

Improving interviewing skills (to an extent....body language and acting confident and friendly are often more important than any answer to any question they ask).

A good CV and a good cover letter, that really talks up your training, good letters of recommendation, good references, copies of logs (maybe hold back a bit if another podiatrist will be seeing it). You can usually send in more than just your CV if they only ask only for CV. Have a couple different versions of CV and cover letters depending what setting you are applying to and modify slightly for each job you apply. You would be surprised how many send in a horrible CV horrible and no other optional documents. Some shockingly don’t put in the effort on this part.

 

[PeaJay]

It's a bit like how PharmDs were doing residency when their field was getting highly saturated. It could work for a better job or connections to get one, but more likely just another year of debt and low income... only to face the same dismal job market. That is how it ended up for most of them... just as fellowship is proving to be for most DPMs.

I understand your point. It has actually transitioned to a point where most hospital pharmacy positions require a residency. The transition to the era of Pharmacy residencies also came shortly after the transition to pharmd, which complicates things. Hopefully this isn’t foreshadowing of hospital podiatry requiring fellowship.

 

[FutureDPM323]

Would a fellowship guarantee a job/better job though? In a field where it seems like nothing is guaranteed, fellowship sounds like you're digging yourself into a further hole

Right now most likely not. But given how quickly saturated this field is coming i don’t know who’s to say that fellowship isn’t a way to filter people out 5 years from now or so.

I would listen to Feli

Some also apply to both jobs and fellowships, doing the fellowship only if they don’t get a good enough job (whatever that means salary/location etc). Realistically if they apply for jobs again the following year they will have to be less picky and cast a wider net.

There may come. a point eventually where you need a fellowship for many of the better jobs, but working towards and eventually getting ABFAS RRA should separate you for now.


Things out of your control

Connections and brand name residencies go a long way when another podiatrist is reviewing you residency. Out of your control.

What the jobs use to filter. Out of your control.


What is in your control?

Working towards ABFAS RRA.

Being geographically open

Cold calling…..it is not only the work of a whole life insurance salesman, but a young podiatrist also

Improving interviewing skills (to an extent....body language and acting confident and friendly are often more important than any answer to any question they ask).

A good CV and a good cover letter, that really talks up your training, good letters of recommendation, good references, copies of logs (maybe hold back a bit if another podiatrist will be seeing it). You can usually send in more than just your CV if they only ask only for CV. Have a couple different versions of CV and cover letters depending what setting you are applying to and modify slightly for each job you apply. You would be surprised how many send in a horrible CV horrible and no other optional documents. Some shockingly don’t put in the effort on this part.

hmm maybe applying to both is the way to go. I’ll spend the year cold calling places and apply to fellowships when the cycle starts again and see what the best options i get are 😅

 

[Feeter]

I don't think it would be good to do a fellowship if you don't need it to add more skills.

So many of the fellows are also taking the same crappy jobs even the top programs graduates

 

[Feli]

Right now most likely not. But given how quickly saturated this field is coming i don’t know who’s to say that fellowship isn’t a way to filter people out 5 years from now or so. ...

After a few years out, exp and ABFAS status are what matters (for most of the good employed jobs) as @icebreaker32 said. Any hospital job worth anything will tend to take a ABFAS cert, esp RRA, grad over anyone fresh out of any residency or any fellowship. Anyone can do a fellowship; ABFAS qual shows intelligence and the cert shows exp. That is, bar none, the dominant rule in/out criteria for DPM jobs. For private practice, it's obviously biz skill and being likable and the overall ability to get financing and referrals.

Fellowship might sound impressive to the cold call HR people or randos or the DPM themself while they type it onto their CV, but experienced DPMs are still your decision makers at the majority of jobs. That remains. Know that well. A big misconception among residents/students is that HR and office mgrs control or MDs control hiring. Those are your sources for myths that Ivy league name on the CV or doing fellowship will make up for core deficiency of good residency and ABFAS qual/cert. Well, there is a DPM in control way more often than not.
Very few will be impressed by any fellowship outside the few top flight ones (which take doing a top residency first). Most of them know Inova residency 3yrs is 100x better than St. Rita residency + Silicon Valley or some random fellowship afterwards. The former is called to set up interview, and the latter is junked for any job that got many apps. Fellowships are usually just a way of making up for something (again, exception to the top flight ones)... to some jobs, esp PP, fellowship can actually hurt a bit and say the person might have confidence issues or residency deficiecies - and will probably expect to get paid more for same work.

The only place a DPM fellowship really matters right now is what @PeaJay said: pod groups or hospitals that hire mostly/only their own fellows. There are those "sponsors" which basically make the "fellowship" be a 1yr internship so they can try-it-before-you-buy-it on the hire of their grad fellow. Those might sadly become more popular, but it's hard to say. They'd only be worth it if it were a very desirable job and had some good attendings/cases you needed also.
...Likewise, some of the bogus hospital jobs with 'academic' places might value the word fellowship on your CV, but those jobs are a fairly longshot without exp... and you sure don't need a fellowship to do research and wound center HBO refers while ortho does the good cases, lol.

...Basically, in 5 years out of training (or sooner), you should be applying for jobs mainly with ABFAS and your case logs and exp - or your cash if trying PP owner... not any fellowship certificate. Hospital privileges also go by case logs. Your reasoning for considering fellowship are not solid. There is the financial loss, but also the loss of the year in your 25 or 30 or whatever years of practicing... very possibly for little/no gain.

But hey, do what you want. A few grads from my own program and the programs I did my cases with did fellowships (I wrote some of them LORs for it) in they years following me, typically since they couldn't find a job they liked and needed to buy time. One told me flat out he hoped to work at the fellowship group after (and he did... for about 2 years, lol). Prior to that ~2014, my alumni program one of the longest running 3yr surgical programs where no alumni had ever done actual fellowship (besides AO mini or something like that). They're all doing fine with post-fellowship career... MSGs or good pod groups or hospital jobs, which they could've gotten same/similar without fellowship. A couple worked for their fellowship hospital/system awhile. Most of the alums who got ortho group gigs, and best hospital jobs (bone/joint) or who are residency directors or PP owners/partners now didn't do fellowship... just networked and planned for those jobs. Do good work and pick a spot where you get some cases you like, maybe a mentor for billing/office or MSG/ortho ideas if that's interesting to you, and to track toward ABFAS.

 

[Boba Foot]

hmm maybe applying to both is the way to go. I’ll spend the year cold calling places and apply to fellowships when the cycle starts again and see what the best options i get are 😅

Just take the best job you can find. A fellowship if you don't need one is a waste of your time and it's taking a spot from someone who might actually need the experience. If you get stuck with a job you hate, at worst it just lights a fire under your ass to put in the time and either better qualify for upcoming jobs due to better experience, or gives you cred in banks eyes to take a loan for your own practice.

 

[diabeticfootdr]

SDN = constant disinformation campaign

No evidence.

 

[Retrograde_Nail]

Fellowship training is the biggest lie in podiatry. I remember going to ACFAS my 2nd year in residency and going to the fellowship fair. I remember listening to Lowell Weil get up there and say how fellowship training would put podiatry on par with orthopedics. That orthopedics would recognize our training because podiatrists were doing fellowships. I remember buying into it.

I did apply for fellowships. Only a handful. Hyer, Anderson (New Mexico), CORE (when McAlister was still there). That was it. All were super competitive. I did not get one. But at the same time I was applying for jobs and luckily sold my skills (on paper) to a hospital that I cold called and who did not have a podiatrist on staff.

Not getting a fellowship was disappointing but getting a hospital job right out of residency with only being ABFAS qualified was like winning the podiatry lottery. I got incredible experience starting a hospital based podiatry practice out of residency. I went through all the growing pains of doing surgery on your own with ortho breathing down your neck. I got an idea of what podiatry comradery is really about (there is none). The local pods were furious I got the only hospital job in the area. Yes I learned a lot. I ended up getting board certified too because of all the cases I did.

Then I left. I got another hospital job rather easily because of my previous experience and board certification. If I left this job I could probably get another hospital job because I've got more experience and I am board certified compared to the newly graduated fellowship trained podiatrist.

These are the cold hard facts. Fellowship training has accomplished nothing because there are like 3x the amount fellowship programs out there when I was interviewing for them and that was like 7 years ago. There are new fellowship programs opening every year. Fellowship training is supposed to be special now it is turning into a circus. You have very bad podiatry resident graduates doing fellowships and they are still terrible.

Somebody should count the number of AOFAS fellowship programs around the USA then count the amount of podiatry fellowships. I wouldn't be surprised if podiatry has more which again makes this narrative incredibly sad and disingenuous to the poor souls who buy into that fellowship training will actually do something for you.

 

[icebreaker32]

If we are being honest we have way too many fellowships....buy hey we have too many podiatrists also so it is not surprising.

How many more posts now until we have a locked thread?

 

[Retrograde_Nail]

If we are being honest we have way too many fellowships....buy hey we have too many podiatrists also so it is not surprising.

How many more posts now until we have a locked thread?

We have all been reported by Lee Rogers so I am guessing it is coming rather soon. SDN podiatry is censored....sponsored by the APMA

 

[wakaflocka88]

SDN = constant disinformation campaign

No evidence.

You can’t be serious right……posters here are literally positing their own personal experiences with the whole process all while evaluating the pros and cons from a financial standpoint as well. Pretend this isn’t podiatry and is another type of investment in life. Is that still disinformation? From our standpoint, what do we have to lose if most of us regular posters are fortunate to have a good job?

 

[MoostashPod]

I had a friend/colleague that did a fellowship, thinking it would help him land a better job and be in better position in finding a job. He came out searching and competing for a position with the rest of the world of graduated podiatrists. All in the same boat. I remember my residency director saying fellowships are a waste of time and I believe he's right. It's who you know that matters more in the real world. You can either try your luck or know someone that gets you in the door. This can apply to everything else.

 

[FutureDPM323]

I appreciate everyone who’s responded and given me some insight. For what it’s worth, I did already start job searching. Actually started several months ago. The bleak job prospects is what prompted me to start this thread. I’ll definitely keep you guys posted on what I decide to do and what kind of job I end up with after more than 2 years of job searching.

As for disinformation…there is no disinformation. The word keeps getting thrown around anytime someone talks about the poor job market or says something negative about podiatry. I didn’t make this thread to be negative about my profession. This is the reality I and I know all my other colleagues are facing right now. If there’s some magical job posting listing website me and all my friends are missing that has high paying jobs in livable areas please let me know. I would love nothing more than to know after all the hard work I’ve put in, I know there’s a nice job waiting for me on the otherwise of residency. But that’s not the case what’s so ever. So it’s not disinformation to say the job market sucks. A quick google search shows that. A quick talk with any resident at any program will tell you that. I actually don’t think there’s a single podiatric resident who will tell you that the job market is even average let alone good or great. I’d be hard pressed to find one who doesn’t say it’s anything but god awful. And it doesn’t matter what residents you talk. They can be at the “top” programs or the “average” programs or the “bad” programs and all of them have the same $100k (that’s considered good) job offers waiting for them.

And say you’re lucky and do end up
with a decent let’s say hospital or MSG gig…most people on here that have those jobs will tell you they’re not even sure they could get another one if they had to move or they were fired! How is that “disinformation.” Reality is not disinformation.

Again if i’m missing something or missing a magic place I can go to that will provide great job opportunities, please let me know.

 

[msion]

And it doesn’t matter what residents you talk. They can be at the “top” programs or the “average” programs or the “bad” programs and all of them have the same $100k (that’s considered good) job offers waiting for them.

Can confirm. My program was considered strong and well-known. Residents pretty much all got hospital/multi-specialty group jobs in the past with starting salary in the 200k range few years back.
Now the recent graduated class is either working for small pod group/practice, or doing a fellowship.

It's just sad. In fact I don't even have residents do any work for me now. I round on my own and do my own notes. I can feel their stress, and I really don't know what to say when they ask me questions about future employment.

 

[Pronation]

SDN = constant disinformation campaign

No evidence.

Liar.

 

[Feeter]

After a few years out, exp and ABFAS status are what matters (for most of the good employed jobs) as @icebreaker32 said. Any hospital job worth anything will tend to take a ABFAS cert, esp RRA, grad over anyone fresh out of any residency or any fellowship. Anyone can do a fellowship; ABFAS qual shows intelligence and the cert shows exp. That is, bar none, the dominant rule in/out criteria for DPM jobs. For private practice, it's obviously biz skill and being likable and the overall ability to get financing and referrals.

Fellowship might sound impressive to the cold call HR people or randos or the DPM themself while they type it onto their CV, but experienced DPMs are still your decision makers at the majority of jobs. That remains. Know that well. A big misconception among residents/students is that HR and office mgrs control or MDs control hiring. Those are your sources for myths that Ivy league name on the CV or doing fellowship will make up for core deficiency of good residency and ABFAS qual/cert. Well, there is a DPM in control way more often than not.
Very few will be impressed by any fellowship outside the few top flight ones (which take doing a top residency first). Most of them know Inova residency 3yrs is 100x better than St. Rita residency + Silicon Valley or some random fellowship afterwards. The former is called to set up interview, and the latter is junked for any job that got many apps. Fellowships are usually just a way of making up for something (again, exception to the top flight ones)... to some jobs, esp PP, fellowship can actually hurt a bit and say the person might have confidence issues or residency deficiecies - and will probably expect to get paid more for same work.

The only place a DPM fellowship really matters right now is what @PeaJay said: pod groups or hospitals that hire mostly/only their own fellows. There are those "sponsors" which basically make the "fellowship" be a 1yr internship so they can try-it-before-you-buy-it on the hire of their grad fellow. Those might sadly become more popular, but it's hard to say. They'd only be worth it if it were a very desirable job and had some good attendings/cases you needed also.
...Likewise, some of the bogus hospital jobs with 'academic' places might value the word fellowship on your CV, but those jobs are a fairly longshot without exp... and you sure don't need a fellowship to do research and wound center HBO refers while ortho does the good cases, lol.

...Basically, in 5 years out of training (or sooner), you should be applying for jobs mainly with ABFAS and your case logs and exp - or your cash if trying PP owner... not any fellowship certificate. Hospital privileges also go by case logs. Your reasoning for considering fellowship are not solid. There is the financial loss, but also the loss of the year in your 25 or 30 or whatever years of practicing... very possibly for little/no gain.

But hey, do what you want. A few grads from my own program and the programs I did my cases with did fellowships (I wrote some of them LORs for it) in they years following me, typically since they couldn't find a job they liked and needed to buy time. One told me flat out he hoped to work at the fellowship group after (and he did... for about 2 years, lol). Prior to that ~2014, my alumni program one of the longest running 3yr surgical programs where no alumni had ever done actual fellowship (besides AO mini or something like that). They're all doing fine with post-fellowship career... MSGs or good pod groups or hospital jobs, which they could've gotten same/similar without fellowship. A couple worked for their fellowship hospital/system awhile. Most of the alums who got ortho group gigs, and best hospital jobs (bone/joint) or who are residency directors or PP owners/partners now didn't do fellowship... just networked and planned for those jobs. Do good work and pick a spot where you get some cases you like, maybe a mentor for billing/office or MSG/ortho ideas if that's interesting to you, and to track toward ABFAS.

This has not been my experience.

My first hospital job was ABPM or ABFAS

My second is ABPM

I was offered several other hospital jobs during my job search that were ABPM or ABFAS and did not care which one applicant had.

All of these jobs were focused on limb salvage work with general podiatry (bunions etc).

Almost all job postings that have ABFAS requirements are PP associate jobs. Most hospital job postings state board certification reqiired but do not clarify ABPM or ABFAS.

I don't think you should take a job so you can meet ABFAS requirements. Take a job that you'll enjoy, pays well and is in a place where you wish to live. Obviously that hasn't been easy for any new graduates. Several here have advocated to start your own practice. I am surprised that hasn't been recommended here in this thread yet.

 

[Shiyuan]

This has not been my experience.

My first hospital job was ABPM or ABFAS

My second is ABPM

I was offered several other hospital jobs during my job search that were ABPM or ABFAS and did not care which one applicant had.

All of these jobs were focused on limb salvage work with general podiatry (bunions etc).

Almost all job postings that have ABFAS requirements are PP associate jobs. Most hospital job postings state board certification reqiired but do not clarify ABPM or ABFAS.

I don't think you should take a job so you can meet ABFAS requirements. Take a job that you'll enjoy, pays well and is in a place where you wish to live. Obviously that hasn't been easy for any new graduates. Several here have advocated to start your own practice. I am surprised that hasn't been recommended here in this thread yet.

Agree 100%. The “get ABFAS!!!!! Suffer at a crap job to get dem cases!!!!” rah rah is a bunch of bologna outside of the podiatry world and bigger hospital systems IMO. The places i’ve interviewed this job search and my previous didn’t care which cert, just that you HAD a cert.

 

[Weirdy]

We have all been reported by Lee Rogers so I am guessing it is coming rather soon. SDN podiatry is censored....sponsored by the APMA

The content in real world practice/applications has been beneficial.

No reason to lock this thread right now.
May start deleting mean comments though.

 

[DYK343]

Agree 100%. The “get ABFAS!!!!! Suffer at a crap job to get dem cases!!!!” rah rah is a bunch of bologna outside of the podiatry world and bigger hospital systems IMO. The places i’ve interviewed this job search and my previous didn’t care which cert, just that you HAD a cert.

Im telling you. When I was ABFAS qualified it was not impossible but hard to get a good job.

I was recently in the job market with ABFAS foot/RRA cert. I got about an 80% callback rate for the hospitals/MSG I contacted.

I had 8 interviews in 1 week. Multiple offers.

Without ABFAS/RRA it I got about a 5% callback rate (also coming directly out of residency - so admittingly less experience which is also desired).

Thats my experience. I dont want to speak for Airbud but he shares the same experience. If you can get ABFAS with RRA it will open up a lot of opportunities. Recruiters look for it.

I dont have experience with fellowship and job market opportunities so I cant comment much on that.

- - - -

Edit To expand:

The hospital I am employed at asked me to sift thru the stack of applications for an associate. I pulled out the ones that looked good on paper and recommended interviews for. The recruiter called me back about an applicant that was ABPM only certified. They asked what the difference was. I didn't say much as I honestly don't care what someone's board stat is as long as they can do the work.

But they pushed it a bit and asked "which board is the better board" and I told them ABFAS because... well it is - at least in my opinion.

I dont think that stopped the person from getting an offer as I kind of defended them (this applicant looked good on paper/good training/top program which I care more about) but ultimately this person did not get an interview.

TLDR: The recruiter didnt like ABPM and wanted my opinion on it. They wanted ABFAS. I was approached by recruiter and asked what was going on. I told recruiter this person would likely be a good candidate. Still didnt get an offer. Application went in trash.

This is my personal experience with the two boards for a hospital level job.

 

[Shiyuan]

Im telling you. When I was ABFAS qualified it was not impossible but hard to get a good job.

I was recently in the job market with ABFAS foot/RRA cert. I got about an 80% callback rate for the hospitals/MSG I contacted.

I had 8 interviews in 1 week. Multiple offers.

Without ABFAS/RRA it I got about a 5% callback rate (also coming directly out of residency - so admittingly less experience which is also desired).

Thats my experience. I dont want to speak for Airbud but he shares the same experience. If you can get ABFAS with RRA it will open up a lot of opportunities. Recruiters look for it.

I dont have experience with fellowship and job market opportunities so I cant comment much on that.

Wonder if this is regional?

In any case I don’t want to dis ABFAS or those with that cert, it’s just interesting to read we all have different experiences job searching.

 

[DYK343]

Wonder if this is regional?

In any case I don’t want to dis ABFAS or those with that cert, it’s just interesting to read we all have different experiences job searching.

I dunno if its regional or not. Im sure a small podunk hospital might not care as they are desperate for anyone to join them (these hospitals probably try to recruit ortho or general surgeon for years before getting one so they think a DPM application is a big deal).

Just laying out a formula that has worked well for me and people I know to get the 400k a year jobs with full benefits and PTO.

The hard part is getting the case volume for RRA in private practice right out of residency.

 

[FutureDPM323]

A fear of mine is that I end up at some crappy job where there’s not even enough volume to get abfas certified especially in RRA.

For those of you who have been through this process, realistically when I’m looking for a job, what things should I be looking for that would indicate i’d be busy enough there to not only make money but get surgical patients to meet numbers?

 

[msion]

A fear of mine is that I end up at some crappy job where there’s not even enough volume to get abfas certified especially in RRA.

For those of you who have been through this process, realistically when I’m looking for a job, what things should I be looking for that would indicate i’d be busy enough there to not only make money but get surgical patients to meet numbers?

Surgeries stem off clinic patients, so you will need to have a busy clinic first. PP offices sometimes hire new grads to "build" the practice, rather than being truly busy enough to hire an associate.

If you have a guaranteed busy clinic to start from Day 1, meeting your surgical numbers won't be a problem. You will likely get the bread and butter forefoot stuff in your first week, and then these walk-in delayed Lisfranc/missed calcs/achilles that you can operate on to get your hindfoot numbers.

What you don't want is to start your first day with only 2 patients on the schedule, and then forced to take free call for the group at the hospitals to do pus work, and then doing your own marketing to get more patients.

 

[Susitna]

Do the fellowship, invest in yourself, have a great career. Do research, write a paper, give some lectures, provide service to the profession, do some mission work, start or contribute to a residency program. Then, great opportunities will find you. The profession has so much to offer!

 

[Pronation]

What you don't want is to start your first day with only 2 patients on the schedule, and then forced to take free call for the group at the hospitals to do pus work, and then doing your own marketing to get more patients.

Welcome to pod private practice expansion standard operating procedure. Hire a new associate and screw them while they build a patient base for the practice. Pro tip: if the other provider(s) are not booking new patients at least 3-4w out then you are going to have a typical slow painful ramp up.

 

[Pronation]

Do the fellowship, invest in yourself, have a great career. Do research, write a paper, give some lectures, provide service to the profession, do some mission work, start or contribute to a residency program. Then, great opportunities will find you. The profession has so much to offer!

Great 100k associate opportunities. So much to offer!

 

[Prehealth1011]

Do the fellowship, invest in yourself, have a great career. Do research, write a paper, give some lectures, provide service to the profession, do some mission work, start or contribute to a residency program. Then, great opportunities will find you. The profession has so much to offer!

Makes sense. I imagine it might be difficult to invest in anything else following this route

 

[Retrograde_Nail]

Do the fellowship, invest in yourself, have a great career. Do research, write a paper, give some lectures, provide service to the profession, do some mission work, start or contribute to a residency program. Then, great opportunities will find you. The profession has so much to offer!

When do you pay off your loans from doing any of this?

 

[Hybrocure]

Welcome to pod private practice expansion standard operating procedure. Hire a new associate and screw them while they build a patient base for the practice. Pro tip: if the other provider(s) are not booking new patients at least 3-4w out then you are going to have a typical slow painful ramp up.

Wait, let him cook.

100k base for 2 patients a day not such a bad gig.

 

[icebreaker32]

Do the fellowship, invest in yourself, have a great career. Do research, write a paper, give some lectures, provide service to the profession, do some mission work, start or contribute to a residency program. Then, great opportunities will find you. The profession has so much to offer!

Is this sarcasm or an APMA infomercial?

 

[air bud]

Is this sarcasm or an APMA infomercial?

I just assume wrong forum meant for MD

 

[FutureDPM323]

Do the fellowship, invest in yourself, have a great career. Do research, write a paper, give some lectures, provide service to the profession, do some mission work, start or contribute to a residency program. Then, great opportunities will find you. The profession has so much to offer!

I’ve done nothing but invest in myself since i got into this career. what else am i supposed to invest in exactly? And yet look where thats gotten me.

I mean you don’t think any single person who’s gotten to this point hasn’t invested in themselves? Especially those that worked hard in school and matched at a “top” residency. I seriously wish I could disclose the kinds of offers residents at top programs (i’m talking about the top programs routinely mentioned on here) are getting…for the last several years.

I know i keep belaboring that point but I’ll never get over the fact that you can graduate near the top of your class, match into a great residency, even do a top fellowship and still end up with the crappy $100k job offers. I tell that to students now too. You can go to a top residency, mid residency or a bottom tier residency but we will all end up the same. Only difference is some of us will know how to do surgery and others won’t but we will all wind up at the same jobs!

That’s honestly unheard of. Any other MD/DO profession where a person graduates near top of their class, gets a great program, and snags a good fellowship ends up with a plethora of job opportunities, all high paying salary right out of residency and obviously throughout their career.

But not podiatry. Sad.

 

[icebreaker32]

That’s honestly unheard of. Any other MD/DO profession where a person graduates near top of their class, gets a great program, and snags a good fellowship ends up with a plethora of job opportunities, all high paying salary right out of residency and obviously throughout their career.

But not podiatry. Sad.

Fixed below

Any other MD/DO profession where a person graduates at BOTTOM of their class, ends up with a plethora of job opportunities, all high paying salary right out of residency and obviously throughout their career.

But not podiatry. Sad.

 

[Adam Smasher]

We're recycling some old talking points here but here's my $0.02.

Fellowship training is good for some, wasteful for many, and overall bad for podiatry. As it stands, 7 years is too much training for fungus, heel pain, and forefoot surgery. We can romanticize that "oh some of us will choose to do fellowship and some of us will choose not to" but there's so much one-upmanship in this profession that fellowship training, or at least applying for fellowship, is going to become the norm if it has not already. Just as schools prepare us for residency and not for practice, residencies will prepare us for fellowship and not for practice.

Here's why this is bad for podiatry: pre-health students aren't stupid. They want to know how many years are they going to spend before they hit that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. They'll vote with their feet.

It hasn't even been that long since our last fellowship thread, lol