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air bud said:
Don't worry bro gonna move in a few years when the associate job keeps you from bonusing and maxing out at 120k a year. Family will beg you to move.
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Yeah, if new grads take an associate job, the income's not enough. They will get fired or quit when asking for a raise 15 different ways doesn't work out.

If they take a rural/IHS type job to get decent money or cases, family (and doc) will usually hate the area and isolation, no good schools, nothing to do.

Either way, young DPMs, 90% that you're moving on from first job fairly fast. It's statistical factual podiatry accociate-ology. :pompous:
 
Feli said:
Yeah, if new grads take an associate job, the income's not enough. They will get fired or quit when asking for a raise 15 different ways doesn't work out.

If they take a rural/IHS type job to get decent money or cases, family (and doc) will usually hate the area and isolation, no good schools, nothing to do.

Either way, young DPMs, 90% that you're moving on from first job fairly fast. It's statistical factual podiatry accociate-ology. :pompous:
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Sir we don't use statistics or data in podiatry. We don't contribute to the research involved in developing them so can't trust them. Authored by MDs? Going in the trash. We are PODIATRISTS. We eat breathe sleep the foot and ankle. Experts. Sorry I don't make the rules.
 
air bud said:
Don't worry bro gonna move in a few years when the associate job keeps you from bonusing and maxing out at 120k a year. Family will beg you to move.
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Good point for some. I gladly accepted a decent paying gig (mid 200s) with a tribal IHS site recently. Also it’s within 20-30 minutes of a large city.
 
Dean’s Chat said:
Here’s an interview with the CORE Institute Fellowship director, Dr. Ryan T. Scott. Not everybody grows up with Dr. Gerard Yu as a neighbor…..
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Can we get a video that discusses more pertinent concerns such as the high risk of residency shortage with 2 new schools as documented by Western’s history, the concern of enforcing and maintaining standardized training across all 3 year programs versus what a fellowship may actually provide and/or supplement that a strong program already does not cover, decreasing enrollment reasons in relation to the ROI based on factual job posting salaries, the role SDN has played in the profession?

I believe these topics are far more important than a fellowship talk because without this solid foundation to build upon, skipping to a fellowship still results in a poorly trained podiatrist.
 
wakaflocka88 said:
Can we get a video that discusses more pertinent concerns such as the high risk of residency shortage with 2 new schools as documented by Western’s history...
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That goes against the narrative that podiatry is awesome and the profession is great and we need more schools and more fellowships, sir.
 
It’s a fellowship video posted in a fellowship thread. He lightly addressed the job outlook issue post fellowship at the 09:20 mark which is something that gets talked about here a lot.

Can’t make EVERY thread or convo about the obvious problems.
 
CleanDryandIntact said:
It’s a fellowship video posted in a fellowship thread. He lightly addressed the job outlook issue post fellowship at the 09:20 mark which is something that gets talked about here a lot.

Can’t make EVERY thread or convo about the obvious problems.
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Correct. My and our collective concerns parlay into the idea of a fellowship because without a standardized, reputable foundation - how can a fellowship correct all of the other shortcomings? All this narrative is just a distraction from the obvious problem that was lightly touched on the talk….cmon bro.
 
wakaflocka88 said:
Can we get a video that discusses more pertinent concerns such as the high risk of residency shortage with 2 new schools as documented by Western’s history, the concern of enforcing and maintaining standardized training across all 3 year programs versus what a fellowship may actually provide and/or supplement that a strong program already does not cover, decreasing enrollment reasons in relation to the ROI based on factual job posting salaries, the role SDN has played in the profession?

I believe these topics are far more important than a fellowship talk because without this solid foundation to build upon, skipping to a fellowship still results in a poorly trained podiatrist.
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Nah.
 
Some derailment but nothing crazy yet.
Asking everyone to stay on topic as much as possible (which to be fair you guys have been even if it hasn't strictly been fellowship opportunities only) so we don't have to delete comments or lock thread.
 
Dean’s Chat said:
Here’s an interview with the CORE Institute Fellowship director, Dr. Ryan T. Scott. Not everybody grows up with Dr. Gerard Yu as a neighbor…..
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That was a good interview I liked it and sounds like a good program. Probably an exception to many of the fellowships out there
 
Hybrocure said:
That was a good interview I liked it and sounds like a good program. Probably an exception to many of the fellowships out there
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Smart, nice guy. Well trained enjoys teaching. But very unique situation. It's just not what podiatrists do these days and doing forward.
 
Hybrocure said:
That was a good interview I liked it and sounds like a good program. Probably an exception to many of the fellowships out there
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He is a hard worker; I met him on clerkships. A lot of these guys really live their whole life F&A surgery: reading, seeing pts, lecturing to gain refers, consulting, teaching, hustling. His (CORE) and Hyer (OFAC)and a small handful of others are the podiatry fellowships actually worth doing (unique cases, many cases, connects for jobs that probably justify losing a year of $ and practice).

CORE was stronger when McAlister was there, but it's still one of the elite ones. It would be worth doing (if fellowship-minded and gunning for org hospital/ortho type jobs). Like nearly all top fellowships, they've watered down CORE from 1/yr to 2/yr fellows, though.

Just like elite residency program alums, you will start to see a difference in results... their first couple alums got ortho gigs, highly variable since they went to 2/yr. Elite fellowship alums will go from most/all grads get ortho jobs to most get MSG/org jobs to lower %s and more taking normal PP podiatry jobs. It's partly that they have more fellowship grads to place by diluting, but it's also just due to more overall saturation of F&A surgeons... the demand is not unlimited.

...I agree with 90% of what he said, but he is only considering what elite fellowships do for their grads/alums (who also happen to have done elite residency before the fellow year). The elite podiatry programs absolutely are the exceptions. We have 100+ fellowships that do almost nothing; that was sad when he said "there is not a standard curriculum for fellowship." Podiatry residency is still the foundation... and over half of 'accredited' podiatry residencies are sadly inadequate.

air bud said:
Smart, nice guy. Well trained enjoys teaching. But very unique situation. It's just not what podiatrists do these days and doing forward.
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Bingo.

Even if you get the xtra time/skills/connects, you will have few, if any, location choices to use your full skill set.
That is why we now see a few of the elite DPM fellows taking PP jobs you sure don't need fellowship for. That wasn't seen much 10 years ago (they'd get ortho or hospital or at least MSG gigs), but it's far more saturated now. The same goes even for good 3yr training without fellowship: unlikely to use whole skill set - and harder to find good org jobs.

It's always better to be over-trained, but there are financial and economic and competitive biz realities also.
There are just not a ton of high volume bone/joint F&A surgery jobs (for DPMs) out there - but there are a tooon of DPM applicants wanting them. That is essentially why the supply of $50k-$75k/yr podiatry fellows (associates?) exists and that supply grows: hope.
 
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wakaflocka88 said:
Can we get a video that discusses more pertinent concerns such as the high risk of residency shortage with 2 new schools as documented by Western’s history, the concern of enforcing and maintaining standardized training across all 3 year programs versus what a fellowship may actually provide and/or supplement that a strong program already does not cover, decreasing enrollment reasons in relation to the ROI based on factual job posting salaries, the role SDN has played in the profession?

I believe these topics are far more important than a fellowship talk because without this solid foundation to build upon, skipping to a fellowship still results in a poorly trained podiatrist.
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Wakaflock, for sure, want to join me on Dean’s Chat? I think you’ll find we aren’t that far apart on the subjects. Worthy of discussion for sure.
Dr. Jensen

Edit: Feli, you’re welcome too, of course!
 
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Dean’s Chat said:
Wakaflock, for sure, want to join me on Dean’s Chat? I think you’ll find we aren’t that far apart on the subjects. Worthy of discussion for sure.
Dr. Jensen

Edit: Feli, you’re welcome too, of course!
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I think Feli would be a good guest. He tends to have one of the most level headed takes on here. Maybe we could eventually televise a cage match between him and Lee (even though I’m team Lee sorry Feli)
 
Dean’s Chat said:
Wakaflock, for sure, want to join me on Dean’s Chat? I think you’ll find we aren’t that far apart on the subjects. Worthy of discussion for sure.
Dr. Jensen

Edit: Feli, you’re welcome too, of course!
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How about we do a Dean's chat with the SDN regulars? Lets hash it out. It will probably be your most viewed podcast.
 
Feli said:
I replied to Lee R's "offer" of same maybe a month ago. My reply was deleted, likely at his request.

Similar reply here (tldr = no):

I have no interest in being involved with podiatry fluff pieces. None.
I think it's fairly atrocious to be opening podiatry new schools, expanding spots at existing ones without high quality residencies to support it. Podiatry seems to love adding school seats right up to and past the limit of training program spots. We've had residency shortages literally. We have a perpetual shortage of quality programs that is no secret to anyone who has done podiatry clerkships - or even just conversed a bit with those who have. It's plainly obvious to anyone who has done a rotation in a MD/DO residency program that DPM ones are generally not on par.

We put podiatry kids into roughly $400k debt now, and half get a low-quality residency at a small or VA type hospital where there aren't even teaching MD/DO programs or real research or GME or off-podiatry rotations with legit teaching attendings. There is also subpar surgical volume and diversity. It's no wonder most of them fail ABFAS. Even assuming the DPM student runs that gauntlet and secures one of our great or good residencies, pass ABFAS qual, works hard.... they still eject into a crowded DPM job market (now with fellowship grads grasping at straws also) where they are lucky and far above average if they find a $200k position with their $400k debt (1:2 ratio ROI). Can you imagine that tragedy happening to a MD/DO specialist? It does not - even a MD/DO generalist or lower-tier residency grad is still in comparatively GREAT shape versus the podiatrist.

Podiatry has been good to me as I was "lucky" to work hard, graduate high, matched my top choice, and grinded and learned at low-paid jobs to save up and become an owner. It was really more necessity than choice. The vast majority of DPMs aren't so lucky. I worked for very low pay and ROI for years, went to undesirable locations to find fair pay. My reward is now "king" of a place with still 3x as many DPMs it really needs (since any place on Google Maps will have about 2-10x as many DPMs as really needed). Last, the student debt also is doubled and schools went from 7 to 11 schools in that ~15yrs ago when I was in pod school.

-I am a simple man. I try to be a reasonable man.
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-I have no interest in being a part of that promotional social media stuff. I'm not a podo-politician. At all.
-I am a smallish fish in a smallish pond and happy with that: simply seeing my patients and my community (and still paying off student loans).
-I think podiatry can be good. It is not for the majority of DPMs, particularly recent grads with high debt and low organizational job options, but it can be good. I have always though that if you look at my very old SDN posts, old, newer, new.
-I'm on the list for pre-pod shadowing, did student orgs, I've taught tons of students when I was a student and resident, taught some residents as an attending, and have exchanged messages with dozens of young DPMs or pre pods or even family of such over the years about jobs, contracts, resident match or whatever.

...so, I think it's fine that people make the podiatry fluff pieces, and that'd be FULLY expected when they profit personally from more podiatry school$, podiatry student$, podiatry resident$, podiatry fellow$, podiatry associate$, podiatry org members' due$, more corporate sponsor$, or whatever else.

At the end of the day, if the ROI, job market, and post-grad training of podiatry were better, it would sell itself (just like MD, CRNA, etc do).

The answer is to close some DPM schools/seats (or at minimum freeze them), improve podiatry residencies (put them in teaching hospitals, well-trained attendings, good academics, labs, board prep, research... basically all the things MD programs universally do) to have GOOD post-grad residency spots for all of the DPM grads. Podiatry does basically the opposite of all of those things. It's too bad.

Podiatry is a joke because we make it a joke. This is what I do and how I make a living, and I won't support that joke. The "recruitment crisis" of low quality podiatry school apps and matriculants, the attrition rates, the terrible job market saturation and pay, the low ABFAS pass rates, the lack of insurance reimbursements, and other issues solve themselves if DPMs are well-trained and in demand. Do we see ENT and Derm and Ortho having those problems??? No way! But... tightening the podiatry quality and supply/demand belt does not help university revenues or create more dues-paying members or more associates for the supergroups. C'est la vie... enjoy your weekend.

The last word is yours, if you choose.


Nope. Anyone who does Dean's chat or other fluff pieces is giving credibility and visibility to a promo piece for schools and seats and status quo. I don't think anyone not in agreement with the program's narrative should engage in it.

Likewise, this is exactly why ABFAS wouldn't meet with ABPM :
Why give attention to something you disagree with wholeheartedly?
(in this case new podiatry schools, more students, more DPMs without quality residency spots, fellowships as a byproduct of dysfunctional residency training and saturated and low-paid DPM job market)
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Def just looked at the TLDR and skipped the dissertation 😇😇😇
 
nobody who isnt trying to commit financial suicide should take 400k in loans to make 120k. and it’s showing as less and less students are applying to schools. More students/prospective students need to understand that the 120k job offers are REAL! Wanna live somewhere even remotely desirable and earn a livable wage to pay your loans back comfortably? Not the career for you.
120k is a great salary, not with 400k of loans and 11 years of lost income though.
How can you pay back 400k of loans with an 120k salary? You’ll be in debt forever. the best thing that could happen for the professions would be a decline in the number of graduating podiatrists every year. since the organizations that be won’t limit seats, I hope student applicants continues to plummet.
 
bigf00t1989 said:
nobody who isnt trying to commit financial suicide should take 400k in loans to make 120k. and it’s showing as less and less students are applying to schools. More students/prospective students need to understand that the 120k job offers are REAL! Wanna live somewhere even remotely desirable and earn a livable wage to pay your loans back comfortably? Not the career for you.
120k is a great salary, not with 400k of loans and 11 years of lost income though.
How can you pay back 400k of loans with an 120k salary? You’ll be in debt forever. the best thing that could happen for the professions would be a decline in the number of graduating podiatrists every year. since the organizations that be won’t limit seats, I hope student applicants continues to plummet.
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This is the unfortunate truth. The bulk of new grads are making 100-150k with 350k+ in debt. You don’t see people talking about it publicly because those graduates are employed and don’t want to lose their jobs. Likely also working towards ABFAS and don’t want to ruin their chances in an already secretive way of board certification.
 
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Yes, Dr. Pehde is the Director of the Amputation Prevention and Research Fellowship, 2 per year. It's more about leadership and clinical/surgical-based. That's full for 2024/5. It's currently undergoing application for CPME approval.

This is a separate fellowship and Dr. Lavery is the director.

We are looking to start a Trauma and Recon fellowship with Dr. Hamilton in 2025 and maybe a Sports Med fellowship with the Spurs after that.

Fellows have a primary responsibility for teaching and don't take cases from the residents. They are junior faculty at UT and have independent privileges (called a "specialist", level below Assistant Professor).

We currently have 8 faculty, but I hired 5 more starting September 1.

Dr. Hamilton is applying for a compliment increase in the residency program from 3/yr to 5/yr.

fishman2007 said:
Is this different from the fellowship Dr. Peadhe runs at UTSA?
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diabeticfootdr said:
Yes, Dr. Pehde is the Director of the Amputation Prevention and Research Fellowship, 2 per year. It's more about leadership and clinical/surgical-based. That's full for 2024/5. It's currently undergoing application for CPME approval.

This is a separate fellowship and Dr. Lavery is the director.

We are looking to start a Trauma and Recon fellowship with Dr. Hamilton in 2025 and maybe a Sports Med fellowship with the Spurs after that.

Fellows have a primary responsibility for teaching and don't take cases from the residents. They are junior faculty at UT and have independent privileges (called a "specialist", level below Assistant Professor).

We currently have 8 faculty, but I hired 5 more starting September 1.

Dr. Hamilton is applying for a compliment increase in the residency program from 3/yr to 5/yr.
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Thought Lawrence Lavery was in Dallas?
 
I think it is ridiculous that @Dean’s Chat gets to flood the threads with their podcast unabated.

Fellowship training in podiatry is reaching dangerous territory.

Podiatry residents are graduating from bad residencies and then are getting fellowship positions (since there are so many) and the end product is still a bad podiatrist.

Fellowships are unregulated and new programs are being generated annually. Mostly because doctors are not interested in training residents (too much work for them). They want a more polished product to take advantage of for their own gain such as financial or even just helping promoting their brand (pumping out research articles).

Some of the most historically prominent fellowship programs are now accepting more fellows than before which is watering down the training.

Again very dangerous territory.

Nothing replaces a smart student who gets great residency training. Bad residency and 1 year of fellowship training is not better.
 
Again, there needs to be mandatory reporting to ACFAS about where fellows are placing afterwards....when the data comes out how many are going to PP maybe it will make students think twice....so many just get it in their head so early on they never truly job search 3rd year...then fellowship is the only option and they are taking risky ones with no track record.
 
air bud said:
Again, there needs to be mandatory reporting to ACFAS about where fellows are placing afterwards....when the data comes out how many are going to PP maybe it will make students think twice....so many just get it in their head so early on they never truly job search 3rd year...then fellowship is the only option and they are taking risky ones with no track record.
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It is because they are sold this idea even while in school that fellowship training is the best option.

The only ones who benefitted from fellowship training were some of the first fellows from 10-15 years ago when there were only a handful of fellowships. Because it did open up doors. Those doors are less and less due to saturation from too many graduating podiatrists and the abundance of new fellowships being generated every year.

It's a fact.

Most graduating fellows are joining private practices these days or just opening up their own practices.
 
air bud said:
Again, there needs to be mandatory reporting to ACFAS about where fellows are placing afterwards....when the data comes out how many are going to PP maybe it will make students think twice....so many just get it in their head so early on they never truly job search 3rd year...then fellowship is the only option and they are taking risky ones with no track record.
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Exactly. There should also be reporting of how many residents end up ABFAS certified for residencies (especially now since RRA is easier than ever.)
 
Retrograde_Nail said:
I think it is ridiculous that @Dean’s Chat gets to flood the threads with their podcast unabated.

Fellowship training in podiatry is reaching dangerous territory.

Podiatry residents are graduating from bad residencies and then are getting fellowship positions (since there are so many) and the end product is still a bad podiatrist.

Fellowships are unregulated and new programs are being generated annually. Mostly because doctors are not interested in training residents (too much work for them). They want a more polished product to take advantage of for their own gain such as financial or even just helping promoting their brand (pumping out research articles).

Some of the most historically prominent fellowship programs are now accepting more fellows than before which is watering down the training.

Again very dangerous territory.

Nothing replaces a smart student who gets great residency training. Bad residency and 1 year of fellowship training is not better.
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I get that but unfortunately, many jobs are hiring fellowship-trained podiatrists over non fellowship trained. Many places on the west coast are doing the same as I have looked them up.
 
Retrograde_Nail said:
I think it is ridiculous that @Dean’s Chat gets to flood the threads with their podcast unabated.

Fellowship training in podiatry is reaching dangerous territory.

Podiatry residents are graduating from bad residencies and then are getting fellowship positions (since there are so many) and the end product is still a bad podiatrist.

Fellowships are unregulated and new programs are being generated annually. Mostly because doctors are not interested in training residents (too much work for them). They want a more polished product to take advantage of for their own gain such as financial or even just helping promoting their brand (pumping out research articles).

Some of the most historically prominent fellowship programs are now accepting more fellows than before which is watering down the training.

Again very dangerous territory.

Nothing replaces a smart student who gets great residency training. Bad residency and 1 year of fellowship training is not better.
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DexterMorganSK said:
The videos are on topic with the OPs. It may help those interested in obtaining a fellowship. No TOS is being broken here.
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The YT video links are deleted by other SDN mods (non-podiatry) when used to start or bump a thread... many times over, in this pod forum and in general. I'd say it's a gray area, to say the least (self-promo videos with naked YT links, no convo). If all 11 pod schools linked to their promo videos and social media, SDN podiatry would be flooded. You very seldom see dean make a post or converse unless it's to link to his video content? Other accounts have posts deleted or are banned for same? Again, not suggesting that... just saying naked vid links are not necessarily kosher just because they're somewhat related to the thread topics.

That said, I like the one vid above. Fwiw, I grad the same year as the doc in the link dean put in the video (from pod school... he did longer than norm residency and fellow year).
He's a nice guy and aims well. It's a shame he is doing his cases/pubs with fellows and not the crummy local residency that could seriously benefit from them, but that's the state of podiatry overall nowadays. It's the norm. I can't say I blame him (or other fellowship directors): why work with various junior residents from a below avg program when you can work with basically 4th or even 5th year residents (grads of avg/good program) as your same fellow(s) daily instead?

...As for podiatry fellowships overall, they're a sad byproduct of the highly saturated "foot and ankle surgeon" DPM job market.
This has been covered 100x over. What started out as a way to get unique skill and stand out is now pretty common - and often just a way for fellowships to have cheap labor. There are more fellowships ever year.. and more expanding of the spots at them than ever before. Even the 10 or so fellowships actually worth doing are all watered down with multiple fellows per year now. It's too bad because it removes those surgery cases from residencies and makes more compound student debt for the fellows, but they choose to apply... choose to do them. At some point, people will realize ROI matters and a lot of the bogus pod fellowships that lead to no new cert or skill will go unfilled.

After awhile into the podiatry career, it's mostly ABFAS cert and CV and connections (and persistence cold calling and searching) for finding jobs, but early on, people mostly have ABFAS qual and try to add any edge they can use to get a foothold (connects, fellowship on CV, fellowship connects, another year of looking, etc) to try to find a MSG or hospital gig and avoid the job search or a typical DPM supergroup or PP group job. It's not really better or worse... it just is.

Just like the unnecessary new podiatry schools and surplus of podiatry student seats, the ridiculous number of DPM fellowship spots will either succeed or fail based on demand for those spots/seats. The increase in DPMs overall lowers our income potential, and the fellowships trend adds to average debt load overall. As long as people keep applying and doing them, they'll exist and expand. Time will tell. 🙂
 
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DexterMorganSK said:
The videos are on topic with the OPs. It may help those interested in obtaining a fellowship. No TOS is being broken here.
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I think it provides a one sided perspective of fellowship training. It also pushes a particular person's channel, drives traffic to that channel for possible monetary gain. They can do that on other social media platforms for marketing. They should not be allowed to market on SDN as this is not social media. It is a medical platform to share information, opinions, etc.
 
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Please refer to the meme thread since meme not allowed in here
 
I think there are still only 3-4 fellowships that are worth doing. The rest you are a glorified resident doing terrible cases and getting paid poop
 
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Retrograde_Nail said:
I think it provides a one sided perspective of fellowship training. It also pushes a particular person's channel, drives traffic to that channel for possible monetary gain. They can do that on other social media platforms for marketing. They should not be allowed to market on SDN as this is not social media. It is a medical platform to share information, opinions, etc.
Click to expand...
The counter-arguments for podiatric fellowships are repeated ad nauseum on the forums. I don’t think you have to worry about your message being drowned out by posting a few interviews with accomplished podiatrists.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Retrograde_Nail said:
I think it provides a one sided perspective of fellowship training. It also pushes a particular person's channel, drives traffic to that channel for possible monetary gain. They can do that on other social media platforms for marketing. They should not be allowed to market on SDN as this is not social media. It is a medical platform to share information, opinions, etc.
Click to expand...
100%... it's not a problem for one account to be posting all their vids, but if every school or person with a podiatry YouTube posts theirs, that obviously gets crazy.

I think that's the general reason Sdn has the policy (as do most forums). It gets to be all links if everyone can advertise. It'd just be everyone posting like to their social to get views and attention.
 
Does anyone have any scoop on Siddique's fellowship in Baltimore? I have heard mixed things that he doesn't let fellows be hands-on but I don't know how much truth is there to it?
 
Aresnebula said:
Does anyone have any scoop on Siddique's fellowship in Baltimore? I have heard mixed things that he doesn't let fellows be hands-on but I don't know how much truth is there to it?
Click to expand...
Would be contradictory to his social media persona where he always posts his cases and about his fellowship.
 
Aresnebula said:
Does anyone have any scoop on Siddique's fellowship in Baltimore? I have heard mixed things that he doesn't let fellows be hands-on but I don't know how much truth is there to it?
Click to expand...
i have heard its 50/50 if you get to be hands on. those other fellowships in that area are also like that if not worse. Wynes and Salomon/Fleming. Fellowships should be designed to advance your education and you should be doing as much of the case as possible, not riding handlebars. Be careful about just doing a fellowship to do one. There are a lot out there that you are a cheap associate.
 
5andten said:
i have heard its 50/50 if you get to be hands on. those other fellowships in that area are also like that if not worse. Wynes and Salomon/Fleming. Fellowships should be designed to advance your education and you should be doing as much of the case as possible, not riding handlebars. Be careful about just doing a fellowship to do one. There are a lot out there that you are a cheap associate.
Click to expand...

Random posters coming on here saying the same stuff that the core posters HAVE BEEN SAYING FOR YEARS.

We are not trying to hurt profession. We are here to help YOU.

Don't be a sucker
 
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