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Don't worry bro gonna move in a few years when the associate job keeps you from bonusing and maxing out at 120k a year. Family will beg you to move.
Yeah, if new grads take an associate job, the income's not enough. They will get fired or quit when asking for a raise 15 different ways doesn't work out.

If they take a rural/IHS type job to get decent money or cases, family (and doc) will usually hate the area and isolation, no good schools, nothing to do.

Either way, young DPMs, 90% that you're moving on from first job fairly fast. It's statistical factual podiatry accociate-ology. :pompous:

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Yeah, if new grads take an associate job, the income's not enough. They will get fired or quit when asking for a raise 15 different ways doesn't work out.

If they take a rural/IHS type job to get decent money or cases, family (and doc) will usually hate the area and isolation, no good schools, nothing to do.

Either way, young DPMs, 90% that you're moving on from first job fairly fast. It's statistical factual podiatry accociate-ology. :pompous:
Sir we don't use statistics or data in podiatry. We don't contribute to the research involved in developing them so can't trust them. Authored by MDs? Going in the trash. We are PODIATRISTS. We eat breathe sleep the foot and ankle. Experts. Sorry I don't make the rules.
 
Don't worry bro gonna move in a few years when the associate job keeps you from bonusing and maxing out at 120k a year. Family will beg you to move.
Good point for some. I gladly accepted a decent paying gig (mid 200s) with a tribal IHS site recently. Also it’s within 20-30 minutes of a large city.
 
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Here’s an interview with the CORE Institute Fellowship director, Dr. Ryan T. Scott. Not everybody grows up with Dr. Gerard Yu as a neighbor…..
 
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Here’s an interview with the CORE Institute Fellowship director, Dr. Ryan T. Scott. Not everybody grows up with Dr. Gerard Yu as a neighbor…..


Can we get a video that discusses more pertinent concerns such as the high risk of residency shortage with 2 new schools as documented by Western’s history, the concern of enforcing and maintaining standardized training across all 3 year programs versus what a fellowship may actually provide and/or supplement that a strong program already does not cover, decreasing enrollment reasons in relation to the ROI based on factual job posting salaries, the role SDN has played in the profession?

I believe these topics are far more important than a fellowship talk because without this solid foundation to build upon, skipping to a fellowship still results in a poorly trained podiatrist.
 
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Can we get a video that discusses more pertinent concerns such as the high risk of residency shortage with 2 new schools as documented by Western’s history...
That goes against the narrative that podiatry is awesome and the profession is great and we need more schools and more fellowships, sir.
 
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It’s a fellowship video posted in a fellowship thread. He lightly addressed the job outlook issue post fellowship at the 09:20 mark which is something that gets talked about here a lot.

Can’t make EVERY thread or convo about the obvious problems.
 
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It’s a fellowship video posted in a fellowship thread. He lightly addressed the job outlook issue post fellowship at the 09:20 mark which is something that gets talked about here a lot.

Can’t make EVERY thread or convo about the obvious problems.
Correct. My and our collective concerns parlay into the idea of a fellowship because without a standardized, reputable foundation - how can a fellowship correct all of the other shortcomings? All this narrative is just a distraction from the obvious problem that was lightly touched on the talk….cmon bro.
 
Can we get a video that discusses more pertinent concerns such as the high risk of residency shortage with 2 new schools as documented by Western’s history, the concern of enforcing and maintaining standardized training across all 3 year programs versus what a fellowship may actually provide and/or supplement that a strong program already does not cover, decreasing enrollment reasons in relation to the ROI based on factual job posting salaries, the role SDN has played in the profession?

I believe these topics are far more important than a fellowship talk because without this solid foundation to build upon, skipping to a fellowship still results in a poorly trained podiatrist.
Nah.
 
Some derailment but nothing crazy yet.
Asking everyone to stay on topic as much as possible (which to be fair you guys have been even if it hasn't strictly been fellowship opportunities only) so we don't have to delete comments or lock thread.
 
Here’s an interview with the CORE Institute Fellowship director, Dr. Ryan T. Scott. Not everybody grows up with Dr. Gerard Yu as a neighbor…..


That was a good interview I liked it and sounds like a good program. Probably an exception to many of the fellowships out there
 
That was a good interview I liked it and sounds like a good program. Probably an exception to many of the fellowships out there
Smart, nice guy. Well trained enjoys teaching. But very unique situation. It's just not what podiatrists do these days and doing forward.
 
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That was a good interview I liked it and sounds like a good program. Probably an exception to many of the fellowships out there
He is a hard worker; I met him on clerkships. A lot of these guys really live their whole life F&A surgery: reading, seeing pts, lecturing to gain refers, consulting, teaching, hustling. His (CORE) and Hyer (OFAC)and a small handful of others are the podiatry fellowships actually worth doing (unique cases, many cases, connects for jobs that probably justify losing a year of $ and practice).

CORE was stronger when McAlister was there, but it's still one of the elite ones. It would be worth doing (if fellowship-minded and gunning for org hospital/ortho type jobs). Like nearly all top fellowships, they've watered down CORE from 1/yr to 2/yr fellows, though.

Just like elite residency program alums, you will start to see a difference in results... their first couple alums got ortho gigs, highly variable since they went to 2/yr. Elite fellowship alums will go from most/all grads get ortho jobs to most get MSG/org jobs to lower %s and more taking normal PP podiatry jobs. It's partly that they have more fellowship grads to place by diluting, but it's also just due to more overall saturation of F&A surgeons... the demand is not unlimited.

...I agree with 90% of what he said, but he is only considering what elite fellowships do for their grads/alums (who also happen to have done elite residency before the fellow year). The elite podiatry programs absolutely are the exceptions. We have 100+ fellowships that do almost nothing; that was sad when he said "there is not a standard curriculum for fellowship." Podiatry residency is still the foundation... and over half of 'accredited' podiatry residencies are sadly inadequate.

Smart, nice guy. Well trained enjoys teaching. But very unique situation. It's just not what podiatrists do these days and doing forward.
Bingo.

Even if you get the xtra time/skills/connects, you will have few, if any, location choices to use your full skill set.
That is why we now see a few of the elite DPM fellows taking PP jobs you sure don't need fellowship for. That wasn't seen much 10 years ago (they'd get ortho or hospital or at least MSG gigs), but it's far more saturated now. The same goes even for good 3yr training without fellowship: unlikely to use whole skill set - and harder to find good org jobs.

It's always better to be over-trained, but there are financial and economic and competitive biz realities also.
There are just not a ton of high volume bone/joint F&A surgery jobs (for DPMs) out there - but there are a tooon of DPM applicants wanting them. That is essentially why the supply of $50k-$75k/yr podiatry fellows (associates?) exists and that supply grows: hope.
 
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Can we get a video that discusses more pertinent concerns such as the high risk of residency shortage with 2 new schools as documented by Western’s history, the concern of enforcing and maintaining standardized training across all 3 year programs versus what a fellowship may actually provide and/or supplement that a strong program already does not cover, decreasing enrollment reasons in relation to the ROI based on factual job posting salaries, the role SDN has played in the profession?

I believe these topics are far more important than a fellowship talk because without this solid foundation to build upon, skipping to a fellowship still results in a poorly trained podiatrist.
Wakaflock, for sure, want to join me on Dean’s Chat? I think you’ll find we aren’t that far apart on the subjects. Worthy of discussion for sure.
Dr. Jensen

Edit: Feli, you’re welcome too, of course!
 
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Wakaflock, for sure, want to join me on Dean’s Chat? I think you’ll find we aren’t that far apart on the subjects. Worthy of discussion for sure.
Dr. Jensen

Edit: Feli, you’re welcome too, of course!

I think Feli would be a good guest. He tends to have one of the most level headed takes on here. Maybe we could eventually televise a cage match between him and Lee (even though I’m team Lee sorry Feli)
 
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Wakaflock, for sure, want to join me on Dean’s Chat? I think you’ll find we aren’t that far apart on the subjects. Worthy of discussion for sure.
Dr. Jensen

Edit: Feli, you’re welcome too, of course!
How about we do a Dean's chat with the SDN regulars? Lets hash it out. It will probably be your most viewed podcast.
 
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I replied to Lee R's "offer" of same maybe a month ago. My reply was deleted, likely at his request.

Similar reply here (tldr = no):

I have no interest in being involved with podiatry fluff pieces. None.
I think it's fairly atrocious to be opening podiatry new schools, expanding spots at existing ones without high quality residencies to support it. Podiatry seems to love adding school seats right up to and past the limit of training program spots. We've had residency shortages literally. We have a perpetual shortage of quality programs that is no secret to anyone who has done podiatry clerkships - or even just conversed a bit with those who have. It's plainly obvious to anyone who has done a rotation in a MD/DO residency program that DPM ones are generally not on par.

We put podiatry kids into roughly $400k debt now, and half get a low-quality residency at a small or VA type hospital where there aren't even teaching MD/DO programs or real research or GME or off-podiatry rotations with legit teaching attendings. There is also subpar surgical volume and diversity. It's no wonder most of them fail ABFAS. Even assuming the DPM student runs that gauntlet and secures one of our great or good residencies, pass ABFAS qual, works hard.... they still eject into a crowded DPM job market (now with fellowship grads grasping at straws also) where they are lucky and far above average if they find a $200k position with their $400k debt (1:2 ratio ROI). Can you imagine that tragedy happening to a MD/DO specialist? It does not - even a MD/DO generalist or lower-tier residency grad is still in comparatively GREAT shape versus the podiatrist.

Podiatry has been good to me as I was "lucky" to work hard, graduate high, matched my top choice, and grinded and learned at low-paid jobs to save up and become an owner. It was really more necessity than choice. The vast majority of DPMs aren't so lucky. I worked for very low pay and ROI for years, went to undesirable locations to find fair pay. My reward is now "king" of a place with still 3x as many DPMs it really needs (since any place on Google Maps will have about 2-10x as many DPMs as really needed). Last, the student debt also is doubled and schools went from 7 to 11 schools in that ~15yrs ago when I was in pod school.

-I am a simple man. I try to be a reasonable man.
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-I have no interest in being a part of that promotional social media stuff. I'm not a podo-politician. At all.
-I am a smallish fish in a smallish pond and happy with that: simply seeing my patients and my community (and still paying off student loans).
-I think podiatry can be good. It is not for the majority of DPMs, particularly recent grads with high debt and low organizational job options, but it can be good. I have always though that if you look at my very old SDN posts, old, newer, new.
-I'm on the list for pre-pod shadowing, did student orgs, I've taught tons of students when I was a student and resident, taught some residents as an attending, and have exchanged messages with dozens of young DPMs or pre pods or even family of such over the years about jobs, contracts, resident match or whatever.

...so, I think it's fine that people make the podiatry fluff pieces, and that'd be FULLY expected when they profit personally from more podiatry school$, podiatry student$, podiatry resident$, podiatry fellow$, podiatry associate$, podiatry org members' due$, more corporate sponsor$, or whatever else.

At the end of the day, if the ROI, job market, and post-grad training of podiatry were better, it would sell itself (just like MD, CRNA, etc do).

The answer is to close some DPM schools/seats (or at minimum freeze them), improve podiatry residencies (put them in teaching hospitals, well-trained attendings, good academics, labs, board prep, research... basically all the things MD programs universally do) to have GOOD post-grad residency spots for all of the DPM grads. Podiatry does basically the opposite of all of those things. It's too bad.

Podiatry is a joke because we make it a joke. This is what I do and how I make a living, and I won't support that joke. The "recruitment crisis" of low quality podiatry school apps and matriculants, the attrition rates, the terrible job market saturation and pay, the low ABFAS pass rates, the lack of insurance reimbursements, and other issues solve themselves if DPMs are well-trained and in demand. Do we see ENT and Derm and Ortho having those problems??? No way! But... tightening the podiatry quality and supply/demand belt does not help university revenues or create more dues-paying members or more associates for the supergroups. C'est la vie... enjoy your weekend.

The last word is yours, if you choose.


Nope. Anyone who does Dean's chat or other fluff pieces is giving credibility and visibility to a promo piece for schools and seats and status quo. I don't think anyone not in agreement with the program's narrative should engage in it.

Likewise, this is exactly why ABFAS wouldn't meet with ABPM :
Why give attention to something you disagree with wholeheartedly?
(in this case new podiatry schools, more students, more DPMs without quality residency spots, fellowships as a byproduct of dysfunctional residency training and saturated and low-paid DPM job market)
Def just looked at the TLDR and skipped the dissertation 😇😇😇
 
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nobody who isnt trying to commit financial suicide should take 400k in loans to make 120k. and it’s showing as less and less students are applying to schools. More students/prospective students need to understand that the 120k job offers are REAL! Wanna live somewhere even remotely desirable and earn a livable wage to pay your loans back comfortably? Not the career for you.
120k is a great salary, not with 400k of loans and 11 years of lost income though.
How can you pay back 400k of loans with an 120k salary? You’ll be in debt forever. the best thing that could happen for the professions would be a decline in the number of graduating podiatrists every year. since the organizations that be won’t limit seats, I hope student applicants continues to plummet.
 
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nobody who isnt trying to commit financial suicide should take 400k in loans to make 120k. and it’s showing as less and less students are applying to schools. More students/prospective students need to understand that the 120k job offers are REAL! Wanna live somewhere even remotely desirable and earn a livable wage to pay your loans back comfortably? Not the career for you.
120k is a great salary, not with 400k of loans and 11 years of lost income though.
How can you pay back 400k of loans with an 120k salary? You’ll be in debt forever. the best thing that could happen for the professions would be a decline in the number of graduating podiatrists every year. since the organizations that be won’t limit seats, I hope student applicants continues to plummet.

This is the unfortunate truth. The bulk of new grads are making 100-150k with 350k+ in debt. You don’t see people talking about it publicly because those graduates are employed and don’t want to lose their jobs. Likely also working towards ABFAS and don’t want to ruin their chances in an already secretive way of board certification.
 
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I deleted a bunch of derailing posts. Please keep it to fellowships-related topics only. No memes are allowed. Warnings will be given to anyone breaking the TOS.
 
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