Thoughts on Fellowship given job market

[Boba Foot]

But the problem is the only one who can fix that is CPME, and via their actions (and inactions), they have shown it’s not a priority.

Might be a silly question, but why can't CPME be an independent board with members free of any sort of conflicts of interest? Clearly a board full of fellowship directors and pod school deans/professors aren't the best way to regulate those two things. They will obviously do what's in their own best interests, rather than the profession as a whole. It's like dogs regulating the cookie jar.

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[diabeticfootdr]

Might be a silly question, but why can't CPME be an independent board with members free of any sort of conflicts of interest? Clearly a board full of fellowship directors and pod school deans/professors aren't the best way to regulate those two things. They will obviously do what's in their own best interests, rather than the profession as a whole. It's like dogs regulating the cookie jar.

Not a silly question, but probably a silly answer:

First, you do need people with a certain level of expertise in the subject matter on the Council. But those with actual or perceived conflicts of interests should be recusing themselves, in accordance with CPME Bylaws.

Second, the Council self-selects its members and there are no term limits. So it tends to be a group of homogeneous individuals and that are resistant to change (i.e. improvements).

 

[air bud]

Adam Smasher, in half a sentence you hit the nail on the head. The top and bottom of our profession are light years apart....no wonder people want to do fellowships to further differentiate themselves. And I don’t think it’s an inferiority complex - quite the opposite.
Adam Smith’s “invisible hand” in full display.

Maybe if the schools were actually selective and didn't take anyone with a pulse there would not be extremes....but no they want those admissions because in the end they are just administrators with a self fulfilling goal detached from the end results.

 

[Susitna]

Maybe if the schools were actually selective and didn't take anyone with a pulse there would not be extremes....but no they want those admissions because in the end they are just administrators with a self fulfilling goal detached from the end results.

You're not wrong......

 

[Feli]

Might be a silly question, but why can't CPME be an independent board with members free of any sort of conflicts of interest? Clearly a board full of fellowship directors and pod school deans/professors aren't the best way to regulate those two things. They will obviously do what's in their own best interests, rather than the profession as a whole. It's like dogs regulating the cookie jar.

The CPME being independent won't happen. They are an APMA entity, even if either tries to pretend otherwise. Simply look at their mailing addresses.

If APMA wants new schools, can't close residencies since they'll need those spots.
If APMA wants a new school, a residency shortage might ensue (see: addition of AZ and Western Univ ).
If APMA wants parity, all residencies will be accredited as 3 years (whether they actually have cases/training or not).
If APMA wants a pod school to stay around, re-accredit them... change the rules if necessary.
If APMA wants something, students will be fed that idea.

...The question of the hour should be: why pay dues for an org that doesn't see the writing on the wall of DPM low pay, few job options, exponential tuition, saturation and ROI which is getting worse every year?? That's really the question du jour. It is too bad, because some state XPMA orgs do decent work... but you have to support the mothership prerogative$ to join local ones.

Voting with your $ and waiting for the podiatry ROI and job market to get so bad that they have no choice but to close schools (a la pharmacy schools) is really all that can be done. All of the hallmarks of oversaturation are already seen: grads griping salary and job options, good jobs getting huge number of apps, student applicant interest stagnant/faltering, ppl changing careers out of the field, fellowships springing up as a way to delay job search or have more hope in job placement or just to try to make up for inadequate residencies, private practices competing very hard for patients in most areas, DPMs limiting one another on hospital privileges or refers due to very high density, new pod schools opening despite all of this (without residencies to back them up, no less). Sad but true.

 

[HardRoadPaved]

student applicant interest stagnant/faltering,

look at the incoming class photos on social media... schools with 130+ starting sizes now in the 70s.

 

[DogSnoot]

look at the incoming class photos on social media... schools with 130+ starting sizes now in the 70s.

Good, I’d like to see that number even lower. I wish schools would focus on quality over quantity.

Let the strong fellowships, residency spots and schools survive.

Let the weak programs adjust accordingly or die.

 

[GreenHousePub]

Opportunities for Podiatrists After Residency

I keep hearing about a very wide range of salaries for podiatrist following residency, with many making a salary of around $50,000 to $60,000 a year. Why do all the surveys show an average salary in the six figures?

forums.studentdoctor.net

Not much has changed in 15 years.

 

[Retrograde_Nail]

Opportunities for Podiatrists After Residency

I keep hearing about a very wide range of salaries for podiatrist following residency, with many making a salary of around $50,000 to $60,000 a year. Why do all the surveys show an average salary in the six figures?

forums.studentdoctor.net

Not much has changed in 15 years.

100k 15 years ago is like 200k now

Which means 100-120k salaries now are a complete rip off.

 

[JustAPedicurist]

100k 15 years ago is like 200k now

Which means 100-120k salaries now are a complete rip off.

Pathetic career this is

 

[air bud]

Opportunities for Podiatrists After Residency

I keep hearing about a very wide range of salaries for podiatrist following residency, with many making a salary of around $50,000 to $60,000 a year. Why do all the surveys show an average salary in the six figures?

forums.studentdoctor.net

Not much has changed in 15 years.

@Feli was an OG
@NatCh is just old...

 

[icebreaker32]

L

Opportunities for Podiatrists After Residency

I keep hearing about a very wide range of salaries for podiatrist following residency, with many making a salary of around $50,000 to $60,000 a year. Why do all the surveys show an average salary in the six figures?

forums.studentdoctor.net

Not much has changed in 15 years.

What has changed

15 years again thought of being a DO…..pfft we are going to Foot and Ankle Surgeons

Now mustache and mobile podiatry still going strong……should have been a PA

 

[Prehealth1011]

Opportunities for Podiatrists After Residency

I keep hearing about a very wide range of salaries for podiatrist following residency, with many making a salary of around $50,000 to $60,000 a year. Why do all the surveys show an average salary in the six figures?

forums.studentdoctor.net

Not much has changed in 15 years.

Not true. There are super educational fellowships now!

 

[619]

Podiatry Management Online

Podiatry Management is the national practice management and business magazine, reaching over 22,026 subscribers.

podiatrym.com

 

[GreenHousePub]

Podiatry Management Online

Podiatry Management is the national practice management and business magazine, reaching over 22,026 subscribers.

podiatrym.com

Talking about the old residency match crises? Or talking about the two surgical societies (truth be told I didn't know ASPS existed 11 years ago)

 

[Feli]

Podiatry Management Online

Podiatry Management is the national practice management and business magazine, reaching over 22,026 subscribers.

podiatrym.com

This will get a lot worse.

CPME can refuse to shut down programs - regardless of surgical numbers and training, but they can't whip up new residency spots as fast as the pod schools can create and fill seats. The residency shortages will be cumulative, just like past ones.

I would hate to see what those "I want to help" job offers are trying to pay these ppl with $400k debt. That is a ROI that they didn't expect when they told their parents they were going to be doctors.

But let's add a few fellowships and take more cases/attendings out of podiatry's already largely inadequate residency training. Sounds smart.

 

[HalluxSlicer]

look at the incoming class photos on social media... schools with 130+ starting sizes now in the 70s.

KSUCPM used to have 125 students. The new incoming only has 50

 

[HalluxSlicer]

I think for all those who read to Page 4 of this post should get a fellowship trained badge on SDN profile. With that being said, I have a friend who is Fellowship Trained at one of the aforementioned programs in this discussion post. They work for PP and make about 150K with promised bonuses at pretty high COL area out West. So let's ask again, is Fellowship truly worth it?

 

[Feli]

KSUCPM used to have 125 students. The new incoming only has 50

I told you guys 100 times, OCPM / Kent will be the first to die...

Podiatry Job Market Satisfaction

Guess I would try this poll out to mirror the other. “Job Market” - Please take into account: available DPM opportunities on job search sites (indeed, practicematch, USAJOBS, LinkedIn, etc.), salary, geographic availability, ease of finding a job, etc.

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[Boba Foot]

KSUCPM used to have 125 students. The new incoming only has 50

TUSPM’s 2027 class photo has 63 students in it. Used to be ~100 starting class size. By the time they graduate, will probably be down to 50-55.

 

[wakaflocka88]

I think for all those who read to Page 4 of this post should get a fellowship trained badge on SDN profile. With that being said, I have a friend who is Fellowship Trained at one of the aforementioned programs in this discussion post. They work for PP and make about 150K with promised bonuses at pretty high COL area out West. So let's ask again, is Fellowship truly worth it?

According to Calvin Rushing’s publication, yes, fellowship will boost your earning potential in the long run. Delusional.

 

[HardRoadPaved]

So let's ask again, is Fellowship truly worth it?

Maybe they should seek out an FIDSA approved program. Only two DPMs are fellows of that elite status. Maybe they can help us with how to handle the onychomycosis pandemic with jublia

 

[HalluxSlicer]

According to Calvin Rushing’s publication, yes, fellowship will boost your earning potential in the long run. Delusional.

See attached link for Calvin Rushing: Calvin Rushing, DPM | Podiatric Surgeon in Sunnyvale and Kaufman, TX | Dallas Orthopedic and Shoulder Institute

Despite "delusional" publication, overall seems like a nice guy that looks like Ness from Earthbound

 

[Shiyuan]

I told you guys 100 times, OCPM / Kent will be the first to die...

Podiatry Job Market Satisfaction

Guess I would try this poll out to mirror the other. “Job Market” - Please take into account: available DPM opportunities on job search sites (indeed, practicematch, USAJOBS, LinkedIn, etc.), salary, geographic availability, ease of finding a job, etc.

forums.studentdoctor.net

Barry will IMO.

 

[Retrograde_Nail]

See attached link for Calvin Rushing: Calvin Rushing, DPM | Podiatric Surgeon in Sunnyvale and Kaufman, TX | Dallas Orthopedic and Shoulder Institute

Despite "delusional" publication, overall seems like a nice guy that looks like Ness from Earthbound

I heard he refused to do an educational lecture as a consultant for a company because it wasn’t for fellows it was for regular podiatry residents. How he is a consultant and not even board certified is beyond me.

 

[HalluxSlicer]

I heard he refused to do an educational lecture as a consultant for a company because it wasn’t for fellows it was for regular podiatry residents. How he is a consultant and not even board certified is beyond me.

He probably refused because the Residents were probably close to his age but also they all can see through his Bull Shizzle

 

[Susitna]

He probably refused because the Residents were probably close to his age but also they all can see through his Bull Shizzle

SDN “Attendings” have a major dose of professional jealousy. LOL.

 

[Pronation]

SDN “Attendings” have a major dose of professional jealousy. LOL.

I probably make more than you or the non board certified fellow. LOL.

 

[Susitna]

Then you should be grateful for the opportunities this wonderful profession has provided you!

 

[Pronation]

Then you should be grateful for the opportunities this wonderful profession has provided you!

Who said I wasn’t? I thank the toenail gods every night that I’m not some fellowship trained sucker stuck in some garbage 100k associate position like many of our podiometric colleagues are.

 

[Feli]

Then you should be grateful for the opportunities this wonderful profession has provided you!

Nobody's ungrateful, but it does get a bit old to see the graduating DPM residents year after year after year hit the podiatry job market with similar success to the Normandy landing boats crashing to the beach on D-Day in Saving Private Ryan.

Just because some DPMs (including the main SDN 'disgruntled podiatrists') eventually... and with hard work... and patience... and luck did find - usually create - good DPM jobs, that doesn't mean the overwhelming majority of DPMs don't still have a pretty bad ROI (and worsening every year as tuition rises). News flash: these are not fake accounts posting their struggles in the job search; many struggle despite good training and passing all exams. The ones who trained at the many subpar "accredited" residencies and couldn't pass boards tend to struggle even more as they have thinner skill set and CV.

The greed of the schools and the profession "leaders" to keep churning massive numbers of podiatry grads to a much lower number of quality resident spots and then to a very low number of high pay/ROI jobs - with a large backlog of prior grads also applying for those jobs - is sad. Compensation and board pass verify this repeatedly. I'm very glad applicants are becoming aware.

The oversaturation cheapens the value of what ALL of us do. We should all be upset with it. Whether a DPM is in hospital employ or owning their own office or employed by a group or ACFAS prez or doing nursing homes, the huge saturation cheapens our overall profession's worth to insurances, hospitals, MSGs, to each other, to MDs, and to the public. The decent hospital jobs getting 300-500+ apps speaks for itself. Even VA jobs that 99% of MDs don't want get hundreds of DPMs clamoring and competing for that same pay. Any patient searching and seeing a half dozen - or even a dozen - podiatry offices within 5 miles of them on Google knows that doesn't really happen with other specialists. Again, these are not a bunch of fake or solicited accounts right here on SDN having trouble finding jobs that pay even a 3:1 ROI much less a dream 2:1 salary compared to their debt. There are many more that communicate by PM and don't even post (for same issues of job/contract questions and frustrations). It's an embarrassment.

If anyone wants to call it 'jealousy' or 'negativity' or 'disgruntled,' that's fine... but that's only kidding oneself or pretending that because you might have avoided a bad outcome and poor ROI from podiatry that others all can or do avoid it also. Trying to dismiss what one DPM wants to call naysayers doesn't change the stats of compensation or board pass. So, to pretend that it makes one a podo-politician to sweep things under the rug or to say podiatry doesn't have its warts is just plain inaccurate. It doesn't change the job market just by being a podiatry cheerleader or sending out canned "pro-podiatry" emails in the face of serious issues.

In reality, it's fine to criticize it or point out the flaws... that is the first step to solutions and getting things better for podiatry. That will get the new schools and many inadequate residencies to be seriously scrutinized as DPMs continue to have $400k debt, maybe even a fellowship with more debt, and still trouble finding 3:1 ROI in the job search. Look at pharmacy schools / saturation / pay / ROI. You have to fall off the horse to get back up. Some people prefer to just pretend the horse is a flying unicorn tho.

Tony Robbins likes to say that change is typically affected from "either inspiration or desperation." Podiatry is about to get to the latter.

 

[Retrograde_Nail]

Nobody's ungrateful, but it does get a bit old to see the graduating DPM residents year after year after year hit the podiatry job market with similar success to the Normandy landing boats crashing to the beach on D-Day in Saving Private Ryan.

Just because some DPMs (including the main SDN 'disgruntled podiatrists') eventually... and with hard work... and patience... and luck did find - usually create - good DPM jobs, that doesn't mean the overwhelming majority of DPMs don't still have a pretty bad ROI (and worsening every year as tuition rises). News flash: these are not fake accounts posting their struggles in the job search; many struggle despite good training and passing all exams. The ones who trained at the many subpar "accredited" residencies and couldn't pass boards tend to struggle even more as they have thinner skill set and CV.

The greed of the schools and the profession "leaders" to keep churning massive numbers of podiatry grads to a much lower number of quality resident spots and then to a very low number of high pay/ROI jobs - with a large backlog of prior grads also applying for those jobs - is sad. Compensation and board pass verify this repeatedly. I'm very glad applicants are becoming aware.

The oversaturation cheapens the value of what ALL of us do. We should all be upset with it. Whether a DPM is in hospital employ or owning their own office or employed by a group or ACFAS prez or doing nursing homes, the huge saturation cheapens our overall profession's worth to insurances, hospitals, MSGs, to each other, to MDs, and to the public. The decent hospital jobs getting 300-500+ apps speaks for itself. Even VA jobs that 99% of MDs don't want get hundreds of DPMs clamoring and competing for that same pay. Any patient searching and seeing a half dozen - or even a dozen - podiatry offices within 5 miles of them on Google knows that doesn't really happen with other specialists. Again, these are not a bunch of fake or solicited accounts right here on SDN having trouble finding jobs that pay even a 3:1 ROI much less a dream 2:1 salary compared to their debt. There are many more that communicate by PM and don't even post (for same issues of job/contract questions and frustrations). It's an embarrassment.

If anyone wants to call it 'jealousy' or 'negativity' or 'disgruntled,' that's fine... but that's only kidding oneself or pretending that because you might have avoided a bad outcome and poor ROI from podiatry that others all can or do avoid it also. Trying to dismiss what one DPM wants to call naysayers doesn't change the stats of compensation or board pass. So, to pretend that it makes one a podo-politician to sweep things under the rug or to say podiatry doesn't have its warts is just plain inaccurate. It doesn't change the job market just by being a podiatry cheerleader or sending out canned "pro-podiatry" emails in the face of serious issues.

In reality, it's fine to criticize it or point out the flaws... that is the first step to solutions and getting things better for podiatry. That will get the new schools and many inadequate residencies to be seriously scrutinized as DPMs continue to have $400k debt, maybe even a fellowship with more debt, and still trouble finding 3:1 ROI in the job search. Look at pharmacy schools / saturation / pay / ROI. You have to fall off the horse to get back up. Some people prefer to just pretend the horse is a flying unicorn tho.

Tony Robbins likes to say that change is typically affected from "inspiration or desperation." Podiatry is about to get to the latter.

Out of my graduating podiatry class I can name maybe 10-15 people who ended up working for hospitals/MSGs/ortho groups. The rest are in private practice. Some started their own practices but most are associates and have bounced around a few jobs already in their career. That is the reality.

If 50% of people made it to hospitals/MSGs/Ortho groups/VA hospitals we probably would not be so disgruntled but it is not even close to it. These are the facts.

It is why Kaiser hospital residency programs are so popular and competitive. The training is solid but the chance of landing a Kaiser job goes up significantly. This is the true reason. But Kaiser is not great anyways because you only make a salary and can't even bonus.

 

[diabeticfootdr]

According to Calvin Rushing’s publication, yes, fellowship will boost your earning potential in the long run. Delusional.

I don’t understand why SDN pods think this is delusional.

You all agree some jobs are specifically looking for fellowship-trained pods. You all agree fellowship-trained pods use their fellowships as a negotiation point in their job hunts and on their CVs. Personally, my fellowship has resulted in higher earning potential. It does for all my previous fellows as well.

Just because you don’t want to do one or didn’t want to do one doesn’t mean there’s no value there.

It just makes you sound antiquated and resistant to change because every medical specialty (and every other professional job in the world) has been moving toward more specialized training and not less. It is natural evolution.

Fellowships are here to stay. The UT fellowship is 30 years old this year.

But yes, we should always be looking to improve them and there are lots that need improving.

 

[Retrograde_Nail]

I don’t understand why SDN pods think this is delusional.

You all agree some jobs are specifically looking for fellowship-trained pods. You all agree fellowship-trained pods use their fellowships as a negotiation point in their job hunts and on their CVs. Personally, my fellowship has resulted in higher earning potential. It does for all my previous fellows as well.

Just because you don’t want to do one or didn’t want to do one doesn’t mean there’s no value there.

It just makes you sound antiquated and resistant to change because every medical specialty (and every other professional job in the world) has been moving toward more specialized training and not less. It is natural evolution.

Fellowships are here to stay. The UT fellowship is 30 years old this year.

But yes, we should always be looking to improve them and there are lots that need improving.

The best residencies this profession has to offer produce the most well rounded surgeons year in and year out. I don’t understand the need for fellowship in podiatry which is already a specialized field.

I do trauma, elective foot and ankle recon, wounds, diabetic offloading procedures, Charcot, ex fix, scopes, sports med, etc etc etc. I have even adopted MIS bunions and Charcot now. I do some fusions MIS as well. I’ve got a FDB muscle flap and frame coming up as well. I still do a lot of courses to expand skills.

I’m going to hit 160k bonus for my this 6 month cycle for RVU production bonus on top of what I make salary wise. I get these numbers because I can take on all comers and don’t pick and choose pathologies because they make me feel uncomfortable. I even clip toenails for Christ sake because it’s volume.

Why would I want to sub specialize in limb salvage fellowship and cut my earning potential?

I did a great residency. If podiatry residencies can’t get to you to where you feel comfortable doing all of the above then that’s an indictment on this professions education and residency training standards.

It’s bad.

 

[Pronation]

It just makes you sound antiquated and resistant to change

What change exactly are we talking about here? The brief period of time when fellowships allowed desperate grads to standout amongst the 100s of others applying for that same job? That train has come and gone with the incredible greed and malfeasance from the leadership in this profession as the saturation continues to creep beyond levels of insanity.

“Specialized” training in an already specialized and limited field… brilliant.

 

[Retrograde_Nail]

What change exactly are we talking about here? The brief period of time when fellowships allowed desperate grads to standout amongst the 100s of others applying for that same job? That train has come and gone with the incredible greed and malfeasance from the leadership in this profession as the saturation continues to creep beyond levels of insanity.

“Specialized” training in an already specialized and limited field… brilliant.

Agreed how do you stand out now when it seems like every recent podiatry resident grad is “fellowship trained”?

Just like the older DPMs who did 1-2 years of residency training, who still practice, look around and only see 3 year trained DPMs.

For a very brief time it was special. Now there are more podiatry fellowships than their are AOFAS fellowships for all of ortho.

 

[wakaflocka88]

Out of my graduating podiatry class I can name maybe 10-15 people who ended up working for hospitals/MSGs/ortho groups. The rest are in private practice. Some started their own practices but most are associates and have bounced around a few jobs already in their career. That is the reality.

If 50% of people made it to hospitals/MSGs/Ortho groups/VA hospitals we probably would not be so disgruntled but it is not even close to it. These are the facts.

It is why Kaiser hospital residency programs are so popular and competitive. The training is solid but the chance of landing a Kaiser job goes up significantly. This is the true reason. But Kaiser is not great anyways because you only make a salary and can't even bonus.

No one will believe us.

I don’t understand why SDN pods think this is delusional.

You all agree some jobs are specifically looking for fellowship-trained pods. You all agree fellowship-trained pods use their fellowships as a negotiation point in their job hunts and on their CVs. Personally, my fellowship has resulted in higher earning potential. It does for all my previous fellows as well.

Just because you don’t want to do one or didn’t want to do one doesn’t mean there’s no value there.

It just makes you sound antiquated and resistant to change because every medical specialty (and every other professional job in the world) has been moving toward more specialized training and not less. It is natural evolution.

Fellowships are here to stay. The UT fellowship is 30 years old this year.

But yes, we should always be looking to improve them and there are lots that need improving.

delusional because only a very small percent of those whom completed a fellowship actually gained a better return on their investment. When I got hired at my current job, the chief of ortho told me about the applicants I went up against. Plenty of fellowship trained pods fresh out from good programs. Zero debate required on this - job market tells us enough. Be cool to see a study published by UTSA tracking the financial impact it has provided, no names needed, all can stay anonymous. 30 years is a lot of data.

A fellowship trained podiatrist is still a podiatrist even though many shy away from the P word. One may think they’re a orthoplastic reconstructive trauma peripheral nerve surgeon, but in reality, still a podiatrist. So…… how are you comparing this to MD/DO??? Internal medicine grad doing fellowship to become an interventional cardiologist is super legit, went from potential earning of $300k to now $600k+. Nice. Super specialized.

 

[diabeticfootdr]

The best residencies this profession has to offer produce the most well rounded surgeons year in and year out. I don’t understand the need for fellowship in podiatry which is already a specialized field.

I do trauma, elective foot and ankle recon, wounds, diabetic offloading procedures, Charcot, ex fix, scopes, sports med, etc etc etc. I have even adopted MIS bunions and Charcot now. I do some fusions MIS as well. I’ve got a FDB muscle flap and frame coming up as well. I still do a lot of courses to expand skills.

I’m going to hit 160k bonus for my this 6 month cycle for RVU production bonus on top of what I make salary wise. I get these numbers because I can take on all comers and don’t pick and choose pathologies because they make me feel uncomfortable. I even clip toenails for Christ sake because it’s volume.

Why would I want to sub specialize in limb salvage fellowship and cut my earning potential?

I did a great residency. If podiatry residencies can’t get to you to where you feel comfortable doing all of the above then that’s an indictment on this professions education and residency training standards.

It’s bad.

Good. For your job you don’t need fellowship. And it sounds like you’re doing fantastic in this profession. Congratulations!

 

[diabeticfootdr]

That train has come and gone with the incredible greed and malfeasance from the leadership in this profession as the saturation continues to creep beyond levels of insanity.

Lol. Who do you think is leading this profession?

The problem is that there aren’t enough leaders and those in leadership positions aren’t exactly leading.

 

[Susitna]

�

I did a great residency. If podiatry residencies can’t get to you to where you feel comfortable doing all of the above then that’s an indictment on this professions education and residency training standards.

Retro nails it here. Dr. Retro and Dr. Rogers put forth thoughtful useful comments. Thank you.

 

[icebreaker32]

I don’t understand why SDN pods think this is delusional.

You all agree some jobs are specifically looking for fellowship-trained pods. You all agree fellowship-trained pods use their fellowships as a negotiation point in their job hunts and on their CVs. Personally, my fellowship has resulted in higher earning potential. It does for all my previous fellows as well.

Just because you don’t want to do one or didn’t want to do one doesn’t mean there’s no value there.

It just makes you sound antiquated and resistant to change because every medical specialty (and every other professional job in the world) has been moving toward more specialized training and not less. It is natural evolution.

Fellowships are here to stay. The UT fellowship is 30 years old this year.

But yes, we should always be looking to improve them and there are lots that need improving.

Fellowships don't seem to be going anywhere true.

Are MOST fellowships opening new doors and creating new jobs that would have never existed previously or are they just adding to a CV/networking in hopes of getting the same limited desirable jobs as those that did not do a fellowship and are also qualified for?

If the answer to the above question is only SOME fellowships, then having too many fellowships can in some cases add value for the individual while also further hurt the overall value/ROI of the profession. The ROI is bad enough and a bit of a risk at this point already. If we make the bad ROI even worse, how can we expect good applicants in significant numbers?

If many of the limited good jobs now prefer someone with 8 years of training then the resulting jobs available for those with 7 years will be worse. If there are too many doing fellowships it provides no benefit for some fellows. Not all fellows get a better job as a result.

There are not enough organizational jobs and too many are chasing them. There is also more chiropody present in our profession than our training justifies.

The first sentence on the first post for this thread:

"The job market sucks so bad that I’m considering doing a fellowship."

 

[FutureDPM323]

A problem with fellowships now is that there are too many fellowships. I know too many classmates going on to do a fellowship most of them i have never even heard of with training that sounds subpar…sounds just like residency.

Also who is regulating these fellowships? If I apply and get accepted to a fellowship how do I know I’m going to actually be getting fellowship training? What is fellowship training anyways as it pertains to podiatry which is already a specialized field? Ortho’s do a fellowship in F&A. They don’t then go on to do a fellowship in a sub speciality in F&A. So why are we? Some questions I have thought about since starting this thread.

 

[icebreaker32]

A problem with fellowships now is that there are too many fellowships. I know too many classmates going on to do a fellowship most of them i have never even heard of with training that sounds subpar…sounds just like residency.

Also who is regulating these fellowships? If I apply and get accepted to a fellowship how do I know I’m going to actually be getting fellowship training? What is fellowship training anyways as it pertains to podiatry which is already a specialized field? Ortho’s do a fellowship in F&A. They don’t then go on to do a fellowship in a sub speciality in F&A. So why are we? Some questions I have thought about since starting this thread.

The right reason to do a fellowship: one did not get enough reps at less common procedures in our profession and have a desire to seek a career doing trauma or TARs etc. Also maybe one has a desire for academic podiatry. You can certainly try to blaze your own trail and build your CV, but due to saturation you might still end up in a typical private practice settling. MDs might have to be more flexible on location for an academic career path, but generally have no difficultly practicing that way if they so desire.

The real reason most are likely doing a fellowship. The first sentence of this thread.

"The job market sucks so bad that I’m considering doing a fellowship."

They just want a decent job. I can not blame them really. It might be used as filter for the stacks of applicants for the limited organizational jobs. Let’s cut the 100-200 applicants down to 20 using filters: Fellowships, ABFAS RRA, or ABFAS qualified applicants from the area with networking connections. Then we will have the individual or committee in charge interview their top 4.

 

[JustAPedicurist]

Lol. Who do you think is leading this profession?

The problem is that there aren’t enough leaders and those in leadership positions aren’t exactly leading.

Ironic

 

[FutureDPM323]

The right reason to do a fellowship: one did not get enough reps at less common procedures in our profession and have a desire to seek a career doing trauma or TARs etc. Also maybe one has a desire for academic podiatry. You can certainly try to blaze your own trail and build your CV, but due to saturation you might still end up in a typical private practice settling. MDs might have to be more flexible on location for an academic career path, but generally have no difficultly practicing that way if they so desire.

The real reason most are likely doing a fellowship. The first sentence of this thread.

"The job market sucks so bad that I’m considering doing a fellowship."

They just want a decent job. I can not blame them really. It might be used as filter for the stacks of applicants for the limited organizational jobs. Let’s cut the 100-200 applicants down to 20 using filters: Fellowships, ABFAS RRA, or ABFAS qualified applicants from the area with networking connections. Then we will have the individual or committee in charge interview their top 4.

I guess what I’m trying to say is irregardless of why someone would do a fellowship, there’s so many fellowships out there and there’s no governing body over them. How do we know some random reconstructive fellowship in florida is providing sufficient training in reconstructive surgery? Is there a number of cases that the fellowship program has to provide in order to be able to call itself a reconstructive fellowship? Same for the trauma fellowships etc

If fellowships are going to be the norm now which is what it feels like tbh as necessary as it seems, I think there needs to be some governing body over them. Otherwise what’s to stop someone from creating a rando fellowship just for the sake of paying someone super cheap instead of hiring an associate? Looking at some of the fellowships available that’s what they already feel like anyways. But it looks good on the CV.

I guess I didn’t realize how many fellowships there are now and I’m just wondering how do we know all these fellowships are actually providing the training they claim they do…we don’t because podiatry.

 

[Feli]

....The real reason most are likely doing a fellowship. The first sentence of this thread.

"The job market sucks so bad that I’m considering doing a fellowship."

They just want a decent job. I can not blame them really. It might be used as filter for the stacks of applicants for the limited organizational jobs. Let’s cut the 100-200 applicants down to 20 using filters: Fellowships, ABFAS RRA, or ABFAS qualified applicants from the area with networking connections. Then we will have the individual or committee in charge interview their top 4.

Yeah, it remains to be seen if fellowships will really give any job/pay edge in podiatry.

I would definitely predict that ABFAS BQ and BC will continue to be used as the main weed-out criteria for most jobs. DPMs are still nearly always the gatekeepers, and for anyone to look past that is foolish. Those standardized exams, like the SAT or MCAT or whatever, are the universal playing field.

It has been that way for decades with the surgical board exam being a boon for podiatry org and good PP jobs, and the fellowships are just so widely varied in terms of quality, type, attendings. Mainly, they add nothing that the DPM wasn't supposed to already learn in residency or wouldn't have been able to "sub-specialize" in anyways... no cert, no case type, no new books or journals ... just different attendings.

As it stands, at least half the people doing podiatry fellowships are trying to make up for the many inadequate residencies in podiatry. They're trying to learn with basic surgery skill/volume that many of their peers got in the 3yr residency. They might want some exposure and academics to help them pass ABFAS qual, which the majority of their peers passed. They need more time to find a [non-terrible] job and recoups some ROI on their 7yrs by adding an 8th. So yeah, of course doing a fellowship is "helpful" to them. It makes them rise from low competitiveness for jobs to average.

...I have to say that when I see DPM fellowship training advertized or on CV, I honestly begin looking for what the applicant was deficient in. I look for a reason on the app or in the phone interview that they did the fellowship (subpar residency, ego, confidence, etc). Not kidding. The rare exception would be if it's one of the few top flight fellowships where the DPM also did a stellar residency and was obviously gunning for ortho jobs, lecture circuit, etc... but those ppl really aren't applying to anywhere I'd have been asked to filter apps anyways. Lol. By and large, DPM fellowships are still done with the the goal of making up for something (training, job edge, whatever).

A problem with fellowships now is that there are too many fellowships. I know too many classmates going on to do a fellowship most of them i have never even heard of with training that sounds subpar…sounds just like residency. ...

Ding ding ding...

Residencies have been the problem all along. Too many of them, 3yr "surgical" ones that aren't even close to truly being that and their grads struggle mightily with ABFAS BQ (or don't even try it), too few cases/ diversity/ academics/ attendings at the vast majority of them.

If we could get the podiatry residencies right, everyone would know DPMs are the authority that we pretend to be. Board pass ABFAS would take care of itself. Pay would be good. But you don't do that by opening a bunch of new schools and seats, taking whoever to fill them, and putting a hold on closing or consolidating bad residencies. Worst of all, we open pointless fellowships and take those needed cases out of resident training.

 

[Adam Smasher]

I keep hammering on this point but we are too damn overtrained. Yes I'm grateful in residency that I got good at managing diabetic foot infections and bread and butter surgery. But if I erased all that, 80-90% of my workdays would be exactly the same.

Residency and fellowship are all performative. Just as there is variation in residency quality, so too will we see variation in fellowship training. The road to licensure gets longer and longer with too many speed bumps along the way.

Pre-health students aren't stupid. They see how long it takes to get where they need to go. They vote with their feet.

 

[Susitna]

If we could get the podiatry residencies right, everyone would know DPMs are the authority that we pretend to be. Board pass ABFAS would take care of itself. Pay would be good. But you don't do that by opening a bunch of new schools and seats, taking whoever to fill them, and putting a hold on closing or consolidating bad residencies.

Well said…It does start with the schools…they bring in better students top to bottom, better students pass boards and make better residents, better residents pass board certification exams and make better practitioners. Better practitioners lift our profession. Not rocket science but I’m sure some of you will disagree. Because SDN.

 

[Pronation]

Well said…It does start with the schools…they bring in better students top to bottom, better students pass boards and make better residents, better residents pass board certification exams and make better practitioners. Better practitioners lift our profession. Not rocket science but I’m sure some of you will disagree. Because SDN.

You’re missing the whole point because you’re a podiatry cheerleader along with the deceitful podiometric politician that continues to spam the forum with nonsense. Here’s the whole point: the schools are pumping out way too many students into this grossly oversaturated profession. It’s not rocket science indeed, and yet here you are either completely oblivious to what’s happening or you somehow stand to gain from the completely unneeded continued glut of students.

 

[Susitna]

Because SDN. LOL.