Thoughts on Fellowship given job market

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Status
Not open for further replies.
Well said…It does start with the schools…they bring in better students top to bottom, better students pass boards and make better residents, better residents pass board certification exams and make better practitioners. Better practitioners lift our profession. Not rocket science but I’m sure some of you will disagree. Because SDN.
You have to give the better students a reason to enter the profession.

You are saying better students are entering the profession?

If the schools have strict MCAT and GPA requirements and don't budge how do they make their budget?

Even if all the students and residencies were of acceptable quality with the saturation currently present we can not just lift ourselves collectively up as a profession to the land of unicorns and rainbows.

Members don't see this ad.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
The best residencies this profession has to offer produce the most well rounded surgeons year in and year out. I don’t understand the need for fellowship in podiatry which is already a specialized field.
Probably less than 20 adequate programs in this profession.
 
I just can't imagine doing all the bull**** of residency over again for a year for possibly sub 100k jobs or maybe if you're lucky 150k a year? Think about all the studying we've done for 4 years of college, 4 years of podiatry school, 3 years of residency. Remember all the road trips you took driving from rotation to rotation, paying to stay in new places every month. Then going to residency working 80 hours a week just to come out and get a job with a salary that some people get with a college degree. Oh and don't forget we're lucky enough to near 400k in debt doing it... But hey I guess I enjoyed coming in at 3 AM before a 7:30 AM case in residency for ingrown toe nails for the privilege to make 100k without benefits. Meanwhile my fellow IM residents are all pulling high 200's or 300k+ with benefits, vacation time and regular hours.
 
  • Like
  • Sad
Reactions: 3 users
Members don't see this ad :)
I just can't imagine doing all the bull**** of residency over again for a year for possibly sub 100k jobs or maybe if you're lucky 150k a year? Think about all the studying we've done for 4 years of college, 4 years of podiatry school, 3 years of residency. Remember all the road trips you took driving from rotation to rotation, paying to stay in new places every month. Then going to residency working 80 hours a week just to come out and get a job with a salary that some people get with a college degree. Oh and don't forget we're lucky enough to near 400k in debt doing it... But hey I guess I enjoyed coming in at 3 AM before a 7:30 AM case in residency for ingrown toe nails for the privilege to make 100k without benefits. Meanwhile my fellow IM residents are all pulling high 200's or 300k+ with benefits, vacation time and regular hours.
dude it was an awful scam. I regret it every single day of my life.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 7 users
dude it was an awful scam. I regret it every single day of my life.

At least scams take your money and you find out pretty quickly, this scam just keeps going. And once you realize it's a scam you still have to go along.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I just can't imagine doing all the bull**** of residency over again for a year for possibly sub 100k jobs or maybe if you're lucky 150k a year? Think about all the studying we've done for 4 years of college, 4 years of podiatry school, 3 years of residency. Remember all the road trips you took driving from rotation to rotation, paying to stay in new places every month. Then going to residency working 80 hours a week just to come out and get a job with a salary that some people get with a college degree. Oh and don't forget we're lucky enough to near 400k in debt doing it... But hey I guess I enjoyed coming in at 3 AM before a 7:30 AM case in residency for ingrown toe nails for the privilege to make 100k without benefits. Meanwhile my fellow IM residents are all pulling high 200's or 300k+ with benefits, vacation time and regular hours.

When we were externing and traveling all over the USA to see programs and NOT at podiatry school we were still paying them FULL tuition.

Scam
 
  • Like
Reactions: 7 users
When we were externing and traveling all over the USA to see programs and NOT at podiatry school we were still paying them FULL tuition.

Scam
Paid $40,000 or so that year just to be treated poorly by miserable residents. what a vicious cycle that was. and then match is the equivalent of a sorority rush..
 
  • Like
Reactions: 5 users
When we were externing and traveling all over the USA to see programs and NOT at podiatry school we were still paying them FULL tuition.

Scam
Also, depending on the school the money is paid so you can be forced do “core” rotations. Where you learn how VA residency function by clipping nails for them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 5 users
Also, depending on the school the money is paid so you can be forced do “core” rotations. Where you learn how VA residency function by clipping nails for them.

Yes if students were not available during a core rotation day the clinic magically would close. I mean that would mean the residents and attendings would have to work.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Obviously all of this is just salt in the wound for the main underlying problem. Go through all of this crap, 300k debt and 7 years of your life pissed away just to land a garbage 100k job with garbage benefits.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Obviously all of this is just salt in the wound for the main underlying problem. Go through all of this crap, 300k debt and 7 years of your life pissed away just to land a garbage 100k job with garbage benefits.
And you’re pretty much stuck because you’ve invested so much into it you have relatively no other skills besides the dremel
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Obviously all of this is just salt in the wound for the main underlying problem. Go through all of this crap, 300k debt and 7 years of your life pissed away just to land a garbage 100k job with garbage benefits.

300k is the very very low end if you're taking loans now, 380k is a decent estimate of what you come out of school with loans (assuming no undergrad) then interest accumulates during residency and the fellowship so well over 400k in loans, possibly closer to 500k.
 
  • Like
  • Sad
Reactions: 3 users
When we were externing and traveling all over the USA to see programs and NOT at podiatry school we were still paying them FULL tuition.

Scam

Facts - and still paying for an apartment back at school while paying even more to stay at airbnbs on those rotations sucked too
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Members don't see this ad :)
Facts - and still paying for an apartment back at school while paying even more to stay at airbnbs on those rotations sucked too
While scrolling Instagram and seeing your friends also in their early-mid 20’s enjoying life
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
And you’re pretty much stuck because you’ve invested so much into it you have relatively no other skills besides the dremel

Maybe for some. What transforms the salt in the wound into a straight cigarette burn wound is that some spent many sleepless nights in residency and can do anything related to F&A surgery (TARs, pilons, trimals, etc) and yet it’s the same crap, 100 applicants per job, high risk of 100k garbage job.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
It’s good you all have each other and you are all super successful. Because SDN.

Your posts are about the same quality as the podiatry job market.
 
  • Like
  • Haha
Reactions: 3 users
It’s good you all have each other and you are all super successful. Because SDN.
You are as isolated in your beliefs like the population of Susitna, AK.

We are glad we have a platform to validate our beliefs. Feel free to post how schools are recruiting better with actual facts:

1692577527208.png


Oh wait you dont have any. You're just another run of the mill new poster that will be gone in 5 minutes. Later gator!
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
I just can't imagine doing all the bull**** of residency over again for a year for possibly sub 100k jobs or maybe if you're lucky 150k a year? Think about all the studying we've done for 4 years of college, 4 years of podiatry school, 3 years of residency. Remember all the road trips you took driving from rotation to rotation, paying to stay in new places every month. Then going to residency working 80 hours a week just to come out and get a job with a salary that some people get with a college degree. Oh and don't forget we're lucky enough to near 400k in debt doing it... But hey I guess I enjoyed coming in at 3 AM before a 7:30 AM case in residency for ingrown toe nails for the privilege to make 100k without benefits. Meanwhile my fellow IM residents are all pulling high 200's or 300k+ with benefits, vacation time and regular hours.
Another hidden fact is that some of these jobs reported here say you gotta travel to multiple places. A college grad making 60k-100k is not doing that and in the MD/DO world, going to multiple places is an automatic 50k-100k bump. Now you have a let's-do-fellowship-to-emulate-MD/DO's thing, again with no guarantee of MD/DO salaries (potential doesn't count)

The fellowship movement is frankly frightening. You guys should sticky what a 300k debt compounding an extra year, followed by 100k salaries life looks like
 
  • Like
Reactions: 5 users
  • Dislike
Reactions: 2 users
Food for thought …


View attachment 375914
I’m a neutral party. Venting isn’t something terrible - it’s actually useful in therapy to get to the roots of issues. If you never speak up, you can never address.

I think the forum members have brought forth multiple problems, such as admission standards, admission numbers, educational value, standards of residency education, and the potential value of fellowships. And that’s not counting the major elephant in the room - actually working - aka the job market.

Have they provided answers for this? To at least some degree. This seems like a flippant deflection.
 
  • Like
  • Love
Reactions: 3 users
I’m a neutral party. Venting isn’t something terrible - it’s actually useful in therapy to get to the roots of issues. If you never speak up, you can never address.

I think the forum members have brought forth multiple problems, such as admission standards, admission numbers, educational value, standards of residency education, and the potential value of fellowships. And that’s not counting the major elephant in the room - actually working - aka the job market.

Have they provided answers for this? To at least some degree. This seems like a flippant deflection.

And I have actually acknowledged the real issues facing the profession.

But every thread, no matter what the topic, is derailed into the same arguments. I have many PMs from pre-pods, students, and pods who have legitimate questions but are afraid to post because they are relentlessly attacked by the same 10 people who dominate the forum.
 
  • Dislike
Reactions: 1 users
And I have actually acknowledged the real issues facing the profession.

But every thread, no matter what the topic, is derailed into the same arguments. I have many PMs from pre-pods, students, and pods who have legitimate questions but are afraid to post because they are relentlessly attacked by the same 10 people who dominate the forum.

Sure you do. Your credibility on this forum continues to plummet with every deceitful post that you make.
 
  • Like
  • Haha
Reactions: 1 users
And I have actually acknowledged the real issues facing the profession.

But every thread, no matter what the topic, is derailed into the same arguments. I have many PMs from pre-pods, students, and pods who have legitimate questions but are afraid to post because they are relentlessly attacked by the same 10 people who dominate the forum.
Please assure these PM peeps that this is an online, anonymous forum and hands can not reach out of their computer screens to be attacked. Literally impossible. They are more than welcome to leave anytime after they post, which is what quite a few APMA recruited posters did to multiple threads.

Back to my question to you before which is on topic of this thread without derail - do you believe your UTSA fellow grads are better off day 1 in regards to their overall ROI?
 
  • Like
  • Haha
Reactions: 1 users
And I have actually acknowledged the real issues facing the profession.

But every thread, no matter what the topic, is derailed into the same arguments. I have many PMs from pre-pods, students, and pods who have legitimate questions but are afraid to post because they are relentlessly attacked by the same 10 people who dominate the forum.
Every one of your posts are about discrediting what people post here.

You make decent points from time to time but in the end you always throw in a comment about discrediting the community here since we are anonymous. If you don't agree with our thoughts and opinions on podiatry that is fine. This is a FORUM after all. Make some reasonable arguments. Show some data to refute our real life experiences.

Repeatedly saying we are lying and making things up simply because we are anonymous is rather manipulative and false.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
  • Love
  • Care
Reactions: 5 users
Did podiatry schools really matriculate 32% less students from 2021 to 2022? This is the same year schools opened up as well, correct?

I knew admissions were down, just did not realize it was THAT much.
 
  • Like
  • Haha
Reactions: 1 users
Did podiatry schools really matriculate 32% less students from 2021 to 2022? This is the same year schools opened up as well, correct?

I knew admissions were down, just did not realize it was THAT much.
hopefully it keeps getting worse. fingers crossed!
 
  • Like
  • Care
Reactions: 1 users
And I have actually acknowledged the real issues facing the profession.

But every thread, no matter what the topic, is derailed into the same arguments. I have many PMs from pre-pods, students, and pods who have legitimate questions but are afraid to post because they are relentlessly attacked by the same 10 people who dominate the forum.

You speak from your own experience and that's great, it is valuable to the forum. But you're a small sliver of the profession, most of us don't have the opportunity or get positions like you have/had. It's like asking Taylor Swift if singing is a viable career, of course it is, for her. Maybe not for Rebecca Black.
 
  • Haha
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
You speak from your own experience and that's great, it is valuable to the forum. But you're a small sliver of the profession, most of us don't have the opportunity or get positions like you have/had. It's like asking Taylor Swift if singing is a viable career, of course it is, for her. Maybe not for Rebecca Black.

You’re assuming he doesn’t know about the crappy 100k jobs that people coming out from his summer pus camp ultimately have to settle for.

Spoiler alert: he knows.
 
  • Love
  • Haha
Reactions: 1 users
I actually agree with Dr Rogers, complaining for the sake of complaining is unproductive and not good for anyone's mental health. I'm running out of new things to say here, so I'll restate what I've already said. If you want to be negative, that's ok, be negative about podiatry, but don't be negative about your own life. Realize what you can and cannot achieve, make realistic goals, set deadlines and work towards them.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 5 users
I agree to an extent.

We say the same things again and again in slightly different ways. I would say it is not so much of an argument in most cases as much as it just stating certain truths as far as the pros and cons of this profession.

Once you have chosen this profession knowing the job market you will be facing can be disheartening, but will do nothing to help yourself. You must help yourself which is always the case in life, but you certainly can not just ride this degree and a license to a good job in this profession.

As far as those potentially considering podiatry I could not blame anyone for thinking long and hard before entering this profession or choosing another profession. It is a long and expensive path with a weak job market. The potential to do extremely well certainly exists. I know many very well on a personal level that are living in 1 or 2 million dollar homes etc. There is no guarantee if that will be you or someone else. I also know many that probably would have been better off as far as ROI and the location they are living in by being an RN.
 
Last edited:
It is a long and expensive path with a weak job market.
Strongly agree.
The potential to do extremely well certainly exists. I know many very well on a personal level that are living in 1 or 2 million dollar homes etc.
The potential diminishes every year, and has plummeted in the past decade, as the saturation and debt spirals out of control. For every crusty mustache pod out there in a 2 million dollar house, there’s a handful of pods working for this person and living in a rental.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Please look up real estate prices in HCOL areas. 1m gets you a pretty basic home esp in California cities.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Man I have SDN to thank for getting myself out of the 10 years of associate-hell. All the commiserating made me realize I was not alone in my misery, and I made moves to get out--otherwise I would have kept moving to the next associate job, thinking maybe it was just the last one that sucked...once I realized that they all sucked, I joined the VA. Couldn't be happier! Sooo...now I just peruse the forums for entertainment every now and then.

It's fun to watch the 1-3 podiatry cheerleaders try to take on the 10-12 people that dominate these forums and speak nothing but the truth.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
  • Haha
  • Love
Reactions: 7 users
I have SDN to thank for getting myself out of the 10 years of associate-hell.
I was a long time lurker and took the advice and went out as well. Thank you SDN for showing me the writing on the wall.

So anyone saying this uproar is a "new" phenomenon of disgruntled associates, residents/students, and pre-pods has clearly missed the boat.
 
  • Like
  • Haha
Reactions: 5 users
...I'm running out of new things to say here...
I agree to an extent.

We say the same things again and again in slightly different ways. I would say it is not so much of an argument in most cases as much as it just stating certain truths as far as the pros and cons of this profession. ...
I think the same things are said, on SDN and just among DPMs in general, because the same issues are asked again and again: jobs, residencies, board exams, contracts, loans, ROI, very lax admissions, etc.

The issues of severe shortage of high quality residencies, low DPM associate pay, few hospital jobs (compared to current and past grads who want them), not using full scope skill at most jobs, etc etc have existed since I was in pod school (and joined SDN). I take extended breaks from the forums for that reason: it often seems like a loop.

It has always been make-your-own-luck in podiatry.
Always. There were times when many grads got no residency. Various lengths of residency. Now, it's still highly varied quality of residency.
There are, and basically always have been, the haves and the have-nots in terms of DPM residencies, jobs, boards, income.

The main concern is that the podiatry issues don't get better; they get worse. ROI is rougher and rougher. The luck is harder to make.
  • Tuition for podiatry goes up faster than incomes, so ROI goes down further.
  • High quality DPM resident spots are finite, yet we open new schools.
  • Supply of "3yr foot and ankle surgeron" goes up and up (now fellowships!), demand drops.
  • Hospital jobs and good MSG/ortho gigs are harder as more locations and positions fill... and pay drops or stagnates despite inflation (due to massive apps for them).
  • Starting or buying a PP is harder due to lending tight and hugely negative debt-to-income ratio for grads.
The schools will struggle and saturation will come to a head in the way that pharmacy did, but that doesn't mean there won't still be tons of DPMs competing for the same pts and jobs. The problem won't correct automatically, and it'll get worse before it gets better. It's too bad.

...I tell people all the time, but the key is realizing there are MAJOR holes in the podiatry training and career field!!! That knowledge is power. Podiatry can still be good... even very good. Learn the flaws. Get mad. Get motivated. Do what it takes to get results. That's usually done by getting the best possible knowledge and training (top third/quarter of class gpa and top third/quarter of DPM residencies which are actually good). After school, being persistent on passing ABFAS and saving to get to PP owner or cold calling and networking and shooting applications to find one of the increasingly few quality DPM employed positions (hospital, partner, etc). That is the best chance to success, but it's a relatively small % of DPMs.

^^^There is nothing wrong with saying that stuff. At all. People need to know how it is. If they don't know, they are BLINDSIDED by the fact that just because podiatry school is easy to get in it is not easy to do well, struggle in match, shocked with the job market, saddened by the poor ROI, don't love the job quality, amazed even some podiatry 'hero' type students/residents still take basic low pay jobs, etc. If they know podiatry's pitfalls going in by reading SDN or wherever, they can handle it well... or at least not be totally shocked and depressed by it. They need that road map to swerve the big mistakes or disappointments that many DPMs face. Ideally, they'll use it as motivation to study and match well, and a likely crap first job is a fire to work for better - or create better. But hey, we still get many of these "$400k and 7yrs for $100k no benefits crap jobs??? Wtf" threads year in and year out. We now have more people thinking maaaybe doubling down on the debt with some fellowship magic might change the offers they're facing.

I would say more people considering podiatry school or currently training for podiatry need to realize the issues, not less. :)
 
Last edited:
  • Like
  • Care
Reactions: 8 users
“There are, and basically always have been, the haves and the have-nots in terms of DPM residencies, jobs, boards, income.”

Words of wisdom!
 
  • Okay...
  • Haha
  • Dislike
Reactions: 2 users
So I went on a date with this girl and she told me that her parents pushed her to pursue DO and not DPM; her parents are both Podiatrists lol. I've found more and more that Podiatrists parents don't want their kids to follow in their foot steps. I mean we had this Palo Alto podiatrist come in as a guest lecturer at my school preaching about his fellowship program closing and the profession is stagnating. He's pretty big in the research world too so hearing this from him is disheartening. Oh and his daughter is an MD Ortho Resident lmao
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
And I have actually acknowledged the real issues facing the profession.

But every thread, no matter what the topic, is derailed into the same arguments. I have many PMs from pre-pods, students, and pods who have legitimate questions but are afraid to post because they are relentlessly attacked by the same 10 people who dominate the forum.
I actually have multiple PMs from Pre-Pods and current Pod students too. I tell them how I wake up with regrets every morning choosing this profession and trying to figure out how to get out of this progressive scam. I see both non-medical and medical (NOT DPM) friends loving what they do and enjoying life while I'm just here rotting away studying the topic I don't honestly care nor show interest about. I wish I took mutiple gap years just to try MD/DO again, even go PA at this point.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 2 users
I actually have multiple PMs from Pre-Pods and current Pod students too. I tell them how I wake up with regrets every morning choosing this profession and trying to figure out how to get out of this progressive scam. I see both non-medical and medical (NOT DPM) friends loving what they do and enjoying life while I'm just here rotting away studying the topic I don't honestly care nor show interest about. I wish I took mutiple gap years just to try MD/DO again, even go PA at this point.
Holy crap, man. I don't mean this to be nasty, but you might want to talk to a therapist, as you sound really depressed.

Pretty much myself and group of friends all love what we do.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
I actually have multiple PMs from Pre-Pods and current Pod students too. I tell them how I wake up with regrets every morning choosing this profession and trying to figure out how to get out of this progressive scam. I see both non-medical and medical (NOT DPM) friends loving what they do and enjoying life while I'm just here rotting away studying the topic I don't honestly care nor show interest about. I wish I took mutiple gap years just to try MD/DO again, even go PA at this point.

Are you currently in school? It sounds more so like burnout from studying rather than working.

You can still be happy working a job you have no interest in. Most of the world does this. So do many doctors. You need to make your life outside of work/school more fun and satisfying
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Holy crap, man. I don't mean this to be nasty, but you might want to talk to a therapist, as you sound really depressed.

Pretty much myself and group of friends all love what we do.

Of course he’s depressed. He got duped and is now trapped. Please don’t patronize or minimize his situation. Most of my homeboys don’t “love” what we do but we tolerate it because some of us are getting laid like doctors.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 3 users
I like it but don't love it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
I like and hate my job. Still a broke doctor though, but at least I have a job. Fellowship...hahh.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
The only fellowship I need is hangin with the boys on SDN
 
  • Like
  • Haha
Reactions: 6 users
Holy crap, man. I don't mean this to be nasty, but you might want to talk to a therapist, as you sound really depressed.

Pretty much myself and group of friends all love what we do.

I’m busy as hell and do well financially and I don’t love podiatry at all. This is just a way to put food on the table for my wife and kids. If I lost my hospital job and couldn’t find work other than PP podiatry I’d quit the profession and get a job at UPS ASAP
 
  • Like
Reactions: 6 users
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top