Tidal volume in PCV

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Boujee

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Hello all,

I have a respiratory physiology question:

Why is that when I switch from VCV to Pressure control I am able to deliver a higher volume for the same peak airway pressure as in VCV?

I feel i have read the details to the point where I have lost the forest among the trees.

any help is much appreciated.
 
During PCV, you deliver the set peak ressure for the entire duration of inspiration. With VCV, you only reach the peak pressure at the end of inspiration (the flow is held constant, so pressure increases to maintain that flow later in inspiration).
 
Hello all,

I have a respiratory physiology question:

Why is that when I switch from VCV to Pressure control I am able to deliver a higher volume for the same peak airway pressure as in VCV?

I feel i have read the details to the point where I have lost the forest among the trees.

any help is much appreciated.

Start adding an inspiratory pause to your VCV settings and lengthening your inspiratory time and see what happens.
 
Why is that when I switch from VCV to Pressure control I am able to deliver a higher volume for the same peak airway pressure as in VCV?

The more correct comparison would be peak pressure with PC to plateau pressure with VC. As GypsySongman wrote, you will need a bit of an inspiratory pause to be able to see the difference between peak and plateau pressure with VC.

When it comes to barotrauma, we care about the pressure the alveoli are exposed to, not what the airways are exposed to (which is what peak with VC represents).
 
The more correct comparison would be peak pressure with PC to plateau pressure with VC. As GypsySongman wrote, you will need a bit of an inspiratory pause to be able to see the difference between peak and plateau pressure with VC.

When it comes to barotrauma, we care about the pressure the alveoli are exposed to, not what the airways are exposed to (which is what peak with VC represents).

What he said... 👍

And, just to clarify what he implied, but didn't explicitly say (and I know that I have problems picking up on things sometimes) - the plateau pressure in volume control is what you really want to pay attention to. Your peak pressure can be quite a bit higher than your plateau due to increased airway resistance.

Do a bit of an inspiratory pause (a second or so should do it), wait for your pressure to stabilize. That's the pressure you really should care about. (As pgg alluded to) Of course, this is easier to get on somebody who doesn't have respiratory effort - if the patient tries to trigger a breath while you are getting the plateau, it will be all jacked up. 😀

I know that you know how to get a plateau pressure, but figured that somebody that reads this won't. Not trying to insult anybody's intelligence, just trying to make it simple for anybody else who might be reading (e.g. another med student).
 
As said above, the eureka! moment comes when you recognize the difference in flow (constant vs. variable) between the two modes.

A few thoughts on inspiratory hold...

You should get a reliable plateau with 10% of inspiratory time.... can use 0.4s if not dialing in a percentage.

Long insp. holds (1 sec) can be uncomfortable for your previously in-sync with the vent patient resulting in bucking/spontaneous inspiration affecting your plateau measurement.

Thus, ideally you want the least amount of hold required for the system to become static/equilibrated. (Resistance is only present when there is flow V=IR)

One second hold will indeed work, and can cause momentary dec in venous return due to sustained intrathoracic pressure.

Some ventilators (drager apollo for ex.) automatically program an insp hold.

I turn this off for my patients with moderate to severe obstructive lung disease as this further limits respiratory cycle time available for exhalation.

I also turn the default insp hold off in my patients with a paucity of circulating volume or other limitations in cardiac output (steep trendelenberg)...i.e, optimize venous return.

Probably only impacts my incredibly ill patients.... and at that point its just one maneuver done in concert with a dozen others.

Question: with variable flow ventilation is venous return improved as compared to constant flow ventilation?
 
Long insp. holds (1 sec) can be uncomfortable for your previously in-sync with the vent patient resulting in bucking/spontaneous inspiration affecting your plateau measurement.

Question: with variable flow ventilation is venous return improved as compared to constant flow ventilation?

your first point applies mostly to ICU pts and not so much in the OR - most folks in my OR are deep or paralyzed enough not to notice inspiratory holds.

answer - not really - for the same tidal volume under standard conditions the area under the curve of the pressure-time graph determines the decrease in preload; but it's not quite that simple.. with shorter inspiratory times/higher flows/higher rr's/higher hr's the interplay is decreased. however, if it's an ardsy pt with hypovolemia/sepsis/copd/chf, tinkering with flow/mode/i:e/etc.. may be helpful in finding the sweet spot.
 
your first point applies mostly to ICU pts and not so much in the OR - most folks in my OR are deep or paralyzed enough not to notice inspiratory holds.

answer - not really - for the same tidal volume under standard conditions the area under the curve of the pressure-time graph determines the decrease in preload; but it's not quite that simple.. with shorter inspiratory times/higher flows/higher rr's/higher hr's the interplay is decreased. however, if it's an ardsy pt with hypovolemia/sepsis/copd/chf, tinkering with flow/mode/i:e/etc.. may be helpful in finding the sweet spot.

Great answer.... thanks. I thought the AUC of the pressure time graphs should be close to equivalent, the other variables seem to be more determinant due to the non-linear compliance (pressure/volume) curve and its inter and intra patient variability as you point out.

Most of the patients in my OR are also deep and paralyzed ... I was directing that more towards the ICU setting where med students would be more frequently tinkering w/ insp hold.
 
As said above, the eureka! moment comes when you recognize the difference in flow (constant vs. variable) between the two modes.

A few thoughts on inspiratory hold...

You should get a reliable plateau with 10% of inspiratory time.... can use 0.4s if not dialing in a percentage.

Long insp. holds (1 sec) can be uncomfortable for your previously in-sync with the vent patient resulting in bucking/spontaneous inspiration affecting your plateau measurement.

Thus, ideally you want the least amount of hold required for the system to become static/equilibrated. (Resistance is only present when there is flow V=IR)

One second hold will indeed work, and can cause momentary dec in venous return due to sustained intrathoracic pressure.

Some ventilators (drager apollo for ex.) automatically program an insp hold.

I turn this off for my patients with moderate to severe obstructive lung disease as this further limits respiratory cycle time available for exhalation.

I also turn the default insp hold off in my patients with a paucity of circulating volume or other limitations in cardiac output (steep trendelenberg)...i.e, optimize venous return.

Probably only impacts my incredibly ill patients.... and at that point its just one maneuver done in concert with a dozen others.

Question: with variable flow ventilation is venous return improved as compared to constant flow ventilation?

Good points... I didn't think about the ventilator synchrony as I assumed that the patient would be anesthetized and wouldn't have any problems with that. Thank you for the elaboration, as well as the additional learning points!
 
.

I also turn the default insp hold off in my patients with a paucity of circulating volume or other limitations in cardiac output (steep trendelenberg)...i.e, optimize venous return.

Question: with variable flow ventilation is venous return improved as compared to constant flow ventilation?


I thought Trend would increase blood return to the heart and the brain? I put all my old/sick really hypotensive pts in trend.


as for the question I would guess and say that when comparing just the flow during the times of the breathing cycle, a slightly greater blood volume would return to the heart during volume control because of the variable positive intra-thoracic pressure when compared to the constant (sometimes equal to the peak pressure in volume control) intra-thoracic pressures achieved by pressure control.

However, my pts who are deep and mostly paralyzed only breath 8 to 9 times a min and spend most of their time at the end on expiration thus the time spent with an increased intra-thoracic pressure is pretty low and the difference in flows between the two modes is negligible. But I didn't think to look at the area under the curve, that's an interesting point.
 
I thought Trend would increase blood return to the heart and the brain? I put all my old/sick really hypotensive pts in trend

yeah i mean conceptually thats right, and you do it to maximize venous return and make sure blood has an easier route to the head, but i think the point was that when you need to do steep tberg to try and get that benefit, then you should probably turn off anything that limits your venous return (high peep, insp. pause, etc.)

also, im pretty sure tberg longer than 1 minute just makes us feel better, i.e. no benefit and probably cardiopulmonary harm.
 
Marino describes this nicely in The Icu Book. Tberg increases blood pressure at the expense of decreasing cardiac ouput due to rising afterload. I've tried it in some patients with cco PA catheters and it does happen. I'm more a fan of maintaining blood flow rather than pressure.
 
yeah but in an acute setting (CPR, hemorrhagic shock) it can be beneficial. not good to try and manage hypotension with it long term, however
 
yeah i mean conceptually thats right, and you do it to maximize venous return and make sure blood has an easier route to the head, but i think the point was that when you need to do steep tberg to try and get that benefit, then you should probably turn off anything that limits your venous return (high peep, insp. pause, etc.)

also, im pretty sure tberg longer than 1 minute just makes us feel better, i.e. no benefit and probably cardiopulmonary harm.

Right - Tberg is beneficial for few minutes.
Guys - think physiology - after the venous bed is back in the right heart what is to accomplish....NOTHING
 
Trendelenburg positioning after cardiac surgery: effects on intrathoracic blood volume index and cardiac performance
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
D. A. Reuter a1, T. W. Felbinger a1, C. Schmidt a1, K. Moerstedt a1, E. Kilger a1, P. Lamm a2 and A. E. Goetz a1c1

European Journal of Anaesthesiology


Background and objective: The efficacy of the Trendelenburg position, a common first step to treat suspected hypovolaemia, remains controversial. We evaluated its haemodynamic effects on cardiac preload and performance in patients after cardiac surgery.

Methods: Twelve patients undergoing mechanical ventilation of the lungs who demonstrated left ventricular ‘kissing papillary muscles’ by transoesophageal echocardiography, thus suggesting hypovolaemia, were positioned 30° head down for 15 min immediately after cardiac surgery. Cardiac output by thermodilution, central venous pressure, pulmonary artery occlusion pressure, left ventricular end-diastolic area by transoesophageal echocardiography and intrathoracic blood volume by thermo- and dye dilution were determined before, during and after this Trendelenburg manoeuvre.

Results: Trendelenburg's manoeuvre was associated with increases in central venous pressure (9 ± 2 to 12 ± 3 mmHg) and pulmonary artery occlusion pressure (8 ± 2 to 11 ± 3 mmHg). The intrathoracic blood volume index increased slightly (dye dilution from 836 ± 129 to 872 ± 112 mL m−2; thermodilution from 823 ± 129 to 850 ± 131 mL m−2) as did the left ventricular end-diastolic area index (7.5 ± 2.1 to 8.1 ± 1.7 cm2 m−2), whereas mean arterial pressure and the cardiac index did not change significantly. After supine repositioning, the cardiac index decreased significantly below baseline (3.0 ± 0.6 versus 3.5 ± 0.8 L min−1 m−2) as did mean arterial pressure (76 ± 12 versus 85 ± 11 mmHg), central venous pressure (8 ± 2 mmHg) and pulmonary artery occlusion pressure (6 ± 4 mmHg). The intrathoracic blood volume index and left ventricular end-diastolic area index did not differ significantly from baseline.

Conclusions: Trendelenburg's manoeuvre caused only a slight increase of preload volume, despite marked increases in cardiac-filling pressures, without significantly improving cardiac performance.

Link Full Article: http://www.pulsion.de/fileadmin/redaktion/Literature/ClinicalSituations/Reuter_EJA_2003_17.pdf

Effects of mild Trendelenburg on central hemodynamics and internal jugular vein velocity, cross-sectional area, and flow
Chikanori Terai MD, Hiroyuki Anada MD, Shunsuke Matsushima MD, Shoichiro Shimizu MD and Yoshiaki Okada MD

From the Department of Traumatology and Emergency Medicine, National Defense Medical College, Saitama, Japan

Received 24 May 1994; accepted 4 November 1994. Available online 2 August 2004.

Abstract
Despite widespread use of the Trendelenburg position, its autotransfusion effect remains controversial. Additionally, its adverse effect on cerebral circulation is not generally appreciated. The effects of a 10° head-down tilt on central hemodynamics and flow through the internal jugular vein (IJV) were examined in ten healthy volunteers. Left ventricular end-diastolic volume (LVEDV) and cardiac output (CO) were calculated from two-dimensional echocardiograms. IJV velocity and cross-section area were determined by the pulsed Doppler system. Measurements were made with the subjects in the supine position and at 1 minute and 10 minutes after tilting. A significant increase (16%) in CO followed by the increase in LVEDV was observed at 1 minute after tilting, although these changes disappeared after 10 minutes of tilting. Mean arterial pressure at the heart level did not change during the maneuver. The IJV velocity decreased whereas the IJV cross-sectional area increased at 1 minute after tilting, but both factors returned to control level at 10 minutes after tilting. As a result, calculated IJV blood flow was unchanged throughout the period of tilt. Therefore, the mild Trendelenburg position produces a transient autotransfusion effect in normovolemic patients. Out data also suggest that the Trendelenburg produces no adverse effect on cerebral circulation in patients with normal cerebral autoregulation.
 
I think post pump vasoplegia should be considered in this cohort as a significant confounder if applying this to non cardiac surg pts... assuming they had a pump run.... need to pull the paper. Cool source though and helpful for that pt population
 
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