drtongue_danger

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Being a first year DO may I please ask the people that are planning DO as a back up to rethink it. If you really want an MD do it, wait the few years that you need to get the grades and scores. If you don’t want to do OMM then don’t apply, DO schools are not a back. Up. I get really mad at some of my current peers that hate OMM feel embarrassed to tell people they go to a DO school. You will be much happer at a MD school. Ask yourself
Do I want to be with patients or do I want to call myself Dr. because I think I am smart?
Please do yourself a favor and the rest of us by doing what fits you.
 

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I am glad to see this post. I posted the "making people choose" thread about making people only apply to one or the other application service rather than a backup plan. I do agree that there are some people that legitimately do not know which route they want to take. However, I have dealt with many people at my school who say very degrading things about DO schools because they are cocky and pretentious. Then when their MCAT scores are not the 35s that they anticipated, all of a sudden they are all about DO. I agree that if they really do not like osteopathic medicine, then they shouldn't just go anyway. I think that it is great to see someone in their first year give some input. I hope that others consider what you have to say. :thumbup:
 
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TimmyTheWonderD

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USArmyDoc said:
Good point guys!

My premedical advisor was VERY old school, and so when we were discussing options he never even mentioned DO to me...so, sadly, I did not even think about it until recently. I started working with EXCELLENT trauma surgeons who are DO's and both alums at CCOM. So, just so you guys don't think I am using DO as "back-up" and so I can get some honest feedback and info I have to say u[ front that I am truly undecided. I am applying to both DO and MD and I will base my decision on what I learn about both along the way, including of course what I learn about each individual school I am lucky enough to interview at (I say my stats are not stellar as they have only landed me 1 interview, maybe it is because I am as nontraditional as they get to boot). Is this wrong? I know that DO is very different from MD in some ways and identical in others, but I am not firmly leaning in either direction just yet.
 

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I think that the point is that if you REALLY WANT to be an MD, then don't go for DO as a backup plan. It seems that you have a strong interest, and that is what matters.
 

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Who the hell cares MD or DO.

I know some ppl only want the title, thats obviously a messed up reason for doing medicine. But most others just want to be physicians. MD or DO doesnt matter, most pple apply to both, and whether stated or not, DO is a backup b/c the stats to get in are lower than MD.

I do doubt that many ppl "hate" osteopathy. They just dont know **** about it.
And those that disagree with OMM? Thats absurd b/c there are plenty of studies that say it works (maybe not for the abundance of things that DO's claim it works for but for some things).

Come on armydoc let me hear it, THIS time.
 

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Ski2Doc said:
Who the hell cares MD or DO.

I know some ppl only want the title, thats obviously a messed up reason for doing medicine. But most others just want to be physicians. MD or DO doesnt matter, most pple apply to both, and whether stated or not, DO is a backup b/c the stats to get in are lower than MD.

I do doubt that many ppl "hate" osteopathy. They just dont know **** about it.
And those that disagree with OMM? Thats absurd b/c there are plenty of studies that say it works (maybe not for the abundance of things that DO's claim it works for but for some things).

Come on armydoc let me hear it, THIS time.
I agree with you. All I want to be is a physician...DO or MD, I dont really care.

And to say that if you dont like OMM then dont go for DO is crap. Is that the only thing a DO can do? I dont want to do OMM, I want ER or anesthesia...does that mean I should only go MD? I could care less about my title.
 

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I sort of agree. While I think most people, at least initially, would want to go MD if they were given the option (not always, but I think a lot of students do use DO as a backup), the overriding concern shouldn't be whether that degree behind your name says MD or DO, it should be whether you can get licensed and board certified to practice in this country. The main concern should be, 'will this program turn me into a doctor?'. And for DO programs, it is a big whopping YES. No one will deny that you will be a doctor once you go through DO. And yes, perhaps some people will ask, 'what is a DO?'. I know my friends and parents' friends will think its weird that I got a DO instead of an MD ("DO? Is that like a homeopathic doctor? Oh wait, you mean she got into residency already? Bones is big money!"). But I don't care, that's a small price to pay to go to med school IMHO.

I was on the international forum a while back, and when the comparison between going carribean or DO came up, the people who were most adament about not doing DO were those that insist they cannot imagine not having MD behind their name, despite the fact that they knew they would have a more difficult time getting into residencies, have more hassles to get international licensure etc.

I knew at least one person like that here in school. He was adament about not going DO, he was under the impression all you needed was an MD (from any country) and you would automatically be given residency and license to practice (if that was only the case....). He insisted he would apply to some carribean schools because you will get an MD. A DO, he thought, meant fighting for a residency spot (and getting leftovers from all the MDs) and never getting respect from anyone.

I think the problem is that most people don't understand that international graduates have a more difficult time matching. It's completely doable, but why endure that extra hassle (when all else is equal) simply because you want the world to know you are an M.D? At least, that's one of the major reasons I believe looking at what degree to get (MD vs DO) is less important than how difficult it is to get license, residencies etc.

There's nothing wrong with going carribean, but I don't believe the reason should be because you want that MD stitched behind your name. To me, if this is your main reason for med school, so everyone will know you are a d o c t o r.....then you are going into medicine for the wrong reasons. There's nothing wrong with wanting prestige, but it should not be your overriding concern.

So I agree that anyone who is overly concerned with that MD for its prestige value would be terribly unhappy in DO schools, but for those that just want to practice medicine, DO is a great option for med school.
 

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Hey NonTradMed do you know anything about international students doing DO? All of my classmates are international students (no green cards) and many are interested in medicine but know nothing about DO. I don't know if DO is an option for them at all.
 

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Ski2Doc said:
And those that disagree with OMM? Thats absurd b/c there are plenty of studies that say it works (maybe not for the abundance of things that DO's claim it works for but for some things).
I agree with everything but this. Fact is, the reason why so many people doubt is because of the lack of evidence of OMM. Yes it has helped with some injuries and can be utilized but the fact stands sometimes muscle energy/bone movement can't be "traced" scientifically for evidence which is why DO's get such a hard evidence. Here's an interesting article ... make sure to read the response

Funny thing that actually took place last night. My significant others grandmother was admitted to a hospital right near us and we went to visit as noone in her family could get ahold of her. There was an IM doc (An MD) doing her history. She mentions her grandson is a 3rd year medical student, he asks where. He states his osteopathic school and the response was just "oh, ok". Then the doctor goes onto to say how he doesn't know what the difference is in DO vs. MD (I am guessing he might be an IMG as he had a thick accent). "They are all doctors" he said. We agreed stating that its just a little difference of OMM. Yet I still felt like he was testing my SO when he asked him to read her EKG - which he did, in detail then explained it to me (which was obviously cool) then the doctor repeated everything my SO had just said :rolleyes: Which I found amusing.

Alot of people are scared of what they don't understand. I feel this is the case with MD's in reference to DO's. Many people don't understand the difference. Things are changing, especially now with international recognition with the WHO(which I know alot of MD's held over DO's heads). The old school philosophy will eventually fade out when people become informed. My mother stated she would NEVER see a DO. When I explained to her for a few months there was no difference and she did her own research ... found out that my best friend from college and a few other of my friends siblings were DO's not MD's and her tune started changing.

We are all doctors (or will be). Initials won't mean jack in the real world when someone needs medical treatment.
 

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drtongue_danger said:
Being a first year DO may I please ask the people that are planning DO as a back up to rethink it. If you really want an MD do it, wait the few years that you need to get the grades and scores. If you don’t want to do OMM then don’t apply, DO schools are not a back. Up. I get really mad at some of my current peers that hate OMM feel embarrassed to tell people they go to a DO school. You will be much happer at a MD school. Ask yourself
Do I want to be with patients or do I want to call myself Dr. because I think I am smart?
Please do yourself a favor and the rest of us by doing what fits you.
:thumbdown:

I've really enjoyed learning OMM. I never even considered DO's until I started applying to MD schools. I then realized that all of my favorite doctors that worked in the ER were DO's anyway. I'm really happy that I chose to go to an osteopathic medical school.

With that being said:

If you count out applicants that use DO as a backup, then you would deplete the majority of the students at DO schools. This would include me.
 

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Personally, if the letters after your name are what matters (whether MD or DO), I think you're going into the ENTIRE PROFESSION for the wrong reason.

Perhaps some serious contemplation should be attempted if you get hung up on the letters... in EITHER direction.

I want to be a doctor. It's very simple. My story is similar to OSUdoc's, in that I was attracted to certain physicians and they all happened to be DO's. The simple fact of the matter, if there were NO LETTERS after my name after graduating, and I got to practice medicine, I'd still be happy... because the POINT is the practice of medicine, the letters are just ancillary.
 
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TimmyTheWonderD said:
My premedical advisor was VERY old school, and so when we were discussing options he never even mentioned DO to me...so, sadly, I did not even think about it until recently.
This is in general, not directed at Timmy. I think it's sad that so many pre-meds don't even know much about DO's. I invited some DO students to come in and talk to my old pre-med organization and about 90% of the students who attended had never heard of osteopathic medicine or didn't know what it was. I think that's a huge failure of pre-med advisors/programs and even the pre-meds themselves (how do you apply to med school and not even know that the DO exists?)
 

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mshheaddoc said:
My mother stated she would NEVER see a DO. .
My mother-in-law was going to a DO for years and didn't even know it.
 

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mshheaddoc said:
I agree with everything but this. Fact is, the reason why so many people doubt is because of the lack of evidence of OMM. Yes it has helped with some injuries and can be utilized but the fact stands sometimes muscle energy/bone movement can't be "traced" scientifically for evidence which is why DO's get such a hard evidence. Here's an interesting article ... make sure to read the response
Dude, i did NOT say all things can be cured/alleviated by omm.
I do NOT believe so.
However, it is a FACT (someone posted some articles on this AND i have personally read a study in the NEJM, 11/4/99, i believe is the date, that proves it)
It does NOT say that it is a miracle cure or better than other things. It DOES state, based on studies, that omm was at least as effective as drugs for lower back pain. This to me is a clear reason to use omm for that problem.

I am sure it does NOT work on everything that ppl claim it does but it DOES work.

You cant possible believe that 20 osteopathic schools, and reputable physicians, are teaching total pseudoscience in this day and age. Be realistic.
To say its only to keep DO's different is ridiculous.
 

mshheaddoc

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Ski2Doc said:
Dude, i did NOT say all things can be cured/alleviated by omm.
I do NOT believe so.
However, it is a FACT (someone posted some articles on this AND i have personally read a study in the NEJM, 11/4/99, i believe is the date, that proves it)
It does NOT say that it is a miracle cure or better than other things. It DOES state, based on studies, that omm was at least as effective as drugs for lower back pain. This to me is a clear reason to use omm for that problem.

I am sure it does NOT work on everything that ppl claim it does but it DOES work.

You cant possible believe that 20 osteopathic schools, and reputable physicians, are teaching total pseudoscience in this day and age. Be realistic.
To say its only to keep DO's different is ridiculous.
That's not my point ... its not a psuedosciene but the statistically significant science research IS NOT THERE. Yes there have been articles but if you read the article the point was that there is evidence but not enough to support on a whole that it works. Because you are right, it doesn't work on everyone and treat all aliments.

And for the above reasons of lack of significance is why you are seeing a push for DO's in research. OMM has worked on me for some aliments and not for others. I'm not bashing it, nor am I praising. I'm just giving you the facts. And this is someone who will soon be married to a DO med student and who is applying to mostly DO schools herself. ;)
 

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mshheaddoc said:
That's not my point ... its not a psuedosciene but the statistically significant science research IS NOT THERE. Yes there have been articles but if you read the article the point was that there is evidence but not enough to support on a whole that it works. Because you are right, it doesn't work on everyone and treat all aliments.

And for the above reasons of lack of significance is why you are seeing a push for DO's in research. OMM has worked on me for some aliments and not for others. I'm not bashing it, nor am I praising. I'm just giving you the facts. And this is someone who will soon be married to a DO med student and who is applying to mostly DO schools herself. ;)
If there is not enough evidence to explain that manipulative medicine does not work, then how do you explain the prevalance of physical therapists, massage therapists, and chiropractors that allopathic physicians refer their patients to?
 

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OSUdoc08 said:
If there is not enough evidence to explain that manipulative medicine does not work, then how do you explain the prevalance of physical therapists, massage therapists, and chiropractors that allopathic physicians refer their patients to?
Just because there hasn't been significantly statistical evidence supporting doesn't mean OMM doesn't work. As stated, OMM is well known to well for some aliments and for some people. My point is that there hasn't been much DO research with stat. significance. That is all. I'm not going to argue my same points. Read what I said and how I've emphasized STATISTICAL SIGNIFICANCE. Only with more research will OMM be considered statistically significant.
 

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I agree with mshheaddoc, albeit double blinded studies are impossible in this case there should be more effort in research. I know there are some big pushes and projects in this going on over here. OMM is good for some things; I will leave it at that.
 

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hoberto said:
Hey NonTradMed do you know anything about international students doing DO? All of my classmates are international students (no green cards) and many are interested in medicine but know nothing about DO. I don't know if DO is an option for them at all.
Well, if they are international and they have no medical degree already, then they will need to go to medical school (either DO or MD) like everyone else. However, while filling out secondaries, I noticed a few schools refused flat out to accept non-green card holders, so your international friends would be out of luck with some med schools. That said, I believe there are DO schools that would accept international. The problem is money. I don't believe these students would qualify for student loans (anyone can correct me if I'm wrong), so they would need to find their own funds for their medical education. But if there is no visa problem, and the medical schools accept international students, then attending them shouldn't be a huge problem.
 

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Just because someone doesn't enjoy embryology doesn't make them unhappy to be in the school - I think you can give a little slack here. But I also understand your bitterness because this is a touchy subject.
 

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tylrc said:
Just because someone doesn't enjoy embryology doesn't make them unhappy to be in the school - I think you can give a little slack here. But I also understand your bitterness because this is a touchy subject.
Embryology isn't even a big deal at my school. They incorporate a few lectures for each unit in gross anatomy, and that's about it.
 

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Taus said:
I know I post this link often...but here's the link to the OMM research articles compiled by Dr. Russo (a mod on sdn)....

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=99957

I think many people will be surprised at how much is actually out there....
Some interesting articles in there. I'd like to see a lot more on the use of OMM for stuff other than pain. It's easy to see how manipulation can help back pain, but everytime I think of OMM, I think of cranial, and that just ruins it for me. All the research I've seen on it appears to be negative, yet this is still taught. WTF?
 

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jeffsleepy said:
Some interesting articles in there. I'd like to see a lot more on the use of OMM for stuff other than pain. It's easy to see how manipulation can help back pain, but everytime I think of OMM, I think of cranial, and that just ruins it for me. All the research I've seen on it appears to be negative, yet this is still taught. WTF?
Since cranial is not a very common treatment modality, it doesn't make sense to me why you think cranial.

Very commonly used OMM techniques such as muscle energy or counterstrain are 2 techniques commonly used by Physical Therapists.

You don't see anyone questioning Physical Therapy, now do you?

Another common technique, HVLA, is a method used by Chiropractors.
 

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Back to the original poster's point - I think that if you make a choice (for WHATEVER reason) - you need to live with that choice and not b*tch about it all the time. If you came to a DO school as a back-up, or if you came to a DO school not knowing entirely that you wouldn't like manipulation...fine...just keep your griping to a minimum, because it gets old. The same goes with choosing the location of your medical school. If you are a city-slicker, but only get accepted to a school in a smaller area....either 1)go and don't complain that you have no access to sushi...or 2)wait and apply again next year. I went to med school in the same town my husband and I both received our undergrads. Although we don't expect to stay here, we have become somewhat part of the community. Hearing my classmates from bigger areas, more "hip" areas - or whatever - complain about the lack of things to do, the backwardness of the townspeople, etc...was EXHAUSTING and offensive. Yes, I actually did hear a classmate from California complain that you just can't find good sushi in Missouri.....I also heard that we don't have fresh vegetables (it's MISSOURI..grow your own!).

We make our choices for whatever reasons...Location, MD/DO...just be happy that your had work has paid off and you got in somewhere. If your accptance is unacceptable to you, wait another year and get what you REALLY want. Not only will you save your classmates the trouble of hearing you complain...but you deserve to do what you want after all these years of hard work. Settling for what you may consider 'less' will only make you resentful.
 

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I feel like I need to chime in here. There is nothing at all wrong with having a dislike for OMM. I personally can't stand it. I suck at it no matter how much I practice, and I always feel like I'm lying to myself and others when people ask me if I feel "somatic dysfunction."

THAT SAID, I study hard, I pass the tests and practicals, and move on. I give OMM the attention that it is due, and then I get back to my other classes. What bothers me is the zealots who accuse you of being an osteopathic traitor if you're not an OMM guru. Not everyone likes geriatrics, or pathology, but we all learn it and move on. OMM is just not my thing, and truthfully, I'm looking forward to the end of this year when I never have to deal with it again.

I've always admired my peers who have such an ability with their hands. Some of them can feel things and make changes that are way over my head. OPP just works for them. Thats great, and I'm happy for them. Now, imagine if I was berating them for not being enthusiastic about pathology. If they learn it and pass the exams/boards, who cares if they personally don't like the subject? They will still be a fine doctor.

I'm proud to be a future DO, and looking back, sitting through OMM labs was worth it to get this education. Being a DO is so, so, much more than manipulation. I think that gets forgotten far too often. The osteopathic approach permeates all aspects of medicine, not just the musculoskeletal system.
 

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drtongue_danger said:
Being a first year DO may I please ask the people that are planning DO as a back up to rethink it. If you really want an MD do it, wait the few years that you need to get the grades and scores. If you don’t want to do OMM then don’t apply, DO schools are not a back. Up. I get really mad at some of my current peers that hate OMM feel embarrassed to tell people they go to a DO school. You will be much happer at a MD school. Ask yourself
Do I want to be with patients or do I want to call myself Dr. because I think I am smart?
Please do yourself a favor and the rest of us by doing what fits you.
Out of curiousity, who placed you in charge of the applicant pool police? Why do you think that you have the right to be annoyed at your classmates who hate OMM? Keep in mind that 90% of DOs do not practice OMT, more DOs (at least around here) are represented by the AMA than the AOA, and whatever legitmacy this "profession" has gained in eyes of the public and state licensure bodies has been because we practice "allopathic medicine" now, not because we give people suboccipital tension releases. If you love OMT, want to specialize in it, and spend the rest of your days in a chiropractor-like family practice setting be my guest. I just get a little tired of these posts that are trying to browbeat people into appreciating OMT.

If you like a DO school based on the facilities, location, and faculty go ahead and apply and attend. If you want to go elsewhere, do that.
 
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