Top 30 Undergrad vs. State School: My Firsthand Experience

[pbjbanana]

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How do you explain this, though? Is it due to a large portion of this sample being lower ranked privates? (For the record, not agreeing with OP.. just curious.)
http://www.gradeinflation.com/ (~3.3 for privates, 3.01 for publics)

Isn't another obvious answer that the caliber of average students from the aggregate private vs. public schools are just higher? If you actually look at the sample schools - the private schools included are more or less at the top of the rankings while the public schools have many that are not as well known (yes they do include the top public schools such as UMich, Berkeley, UCLA). However, with large public universities, there are bound to be a disproportionately larger number of students who drag down the GPA average when compared to top private schools. While I do think that there are many highly intelligent and competent people at state universities, it is a given that the % of these type of students among the entire student body is much lower.

 

[moop]

How do you explain this, though? Is it due to a large portion of this sample being lower ranked privates? (For the record, not agreeing with OP.. just curious.)
http://www.gradeinflation.com/ (~3.3 for privates, 3.01 for publics)

Student quality. That website is a joke when you look at how many things are wrong with it. It cites VCU as a huge deflating institution...but any VA resident will tell you that anyone can get admitted to VCU easily and that the students who go there for college can be really underprepared or just plain shi*tty students. You CANNOT look at grades from schools with very different admissions criteria and say that the ones with the higher grades must be easier and inflated. Preposterous.

 

[moop]

Isn't another obvious answer that the caliber of average students from the aggregate private vs. public schools are just higher? If you actually look at the sample schools - the private schools included are more or less at the top of the rankings while the public schools have many that are not as well known (yes they do include the top public schools such as UMich, Berkeley, UCLA). However, with large public universities, there are bound to be a disproportionately larger number of students who drag down the GPA average when compared to top private schools. While I do think that there are many highly intelligent and competent people at state universities, it is a given that the % of these type of students among the entire student body is much lower.

Yeah basically this. You can't lump these places together. C'mon guys. It's not that hard to imagine that VCU guys just do not do that well in school compared to someone at Penn

 

[moop]

Probably. From what I've seen, private schools are way easier when compared to similarly ranked state schools.

r u srs

"From what I've seen"? Please explain and do not give an n=single digit number anecdote

 

[Kochanie]

r u srs

"From what I've seen"? Please explain and do not give an n=single digit number anecdote

Like?
I have midterms tomorrow so I'll look for legit sources after. 😉

 

[moop]

Like?
I have midterms tomorrow so I'll look for legit sources after. 😉

...can't tell if being played...

 

[efle]

Student quality. That website is a joke when you look at how many things are wrong with it. It cites VCU as a huge deflating institution...but any VA resident will tell you that anyone can get admitted to VCU easily and that the students who go there for college can be really underprepared or just plain shi*tty students. You CANNOT look at grades from schools with very different admissions criteria and say that the ones with the higher grades must be easier and inflated. Preposterous.

But, you can look at grades from schools with similar admissions criteria and say how is it fair that [legitimately graded top tier school] is so tough when everyone gets A+ gold star all over the place at Duke/Dartmouth/Harvard/Yale&co!? #salty

 

[ciruji]

The political correctness is this thread is amazing. Save your time OP, people will always think their schools are difficult.

 

[Afford]

I found this if anyone is interested.

https://www.princeton.edu/hpa/premed/prospective-students/2014HPAFrequentlyAskedQuestions.pdf

The average MCAT for Princeton students is 32.7, but the average accepted applicant from Princeton has a 34.9. I think the people who scored too low on the MCAT didn't bother applying or were encouraged to not apply because that's a pretty big jump and the pdf says 85-95% of applicants get in somewhere.

 

[aalamruad]

I found this if anyone is interested.

https://www.princeton.edu/hpa/premed/prospective-students/2014HPAFrequentlyAskedQuestions.pdf

The average MCAT for Princeton students is 32.7, but the average accepted applicant from Princeton has a 34.9. I think the people who scored too low on the MCAT didn't bother applying or were encouraged to not apply because that's a pretty big jump and the pdf says 85-95% of applicants get in somewhere.

The med school acceptance stats are rarely reliable.

 

[efle]

In the world of SDN, no stats are reliable!

 

[keenemd]

While OP is entitled (see what I did there?) to being frustrated at such unfairness, all is not lost since they will probably crush PB and go on to get an MD degree nevertheless. In the end, these extra 1.5 years won't be a huge setback. Best of luck, OP.

I would consider a year of lost income and taking out a loan for a PB that doesn't guarantee acceptance to be a major setback. At worst, the person doesn't get into medical school and is stuck with a useless certificate or master's degree along with another ~40K in debt in addition to their debt from undergrad. At best, they are spending money on unnecessary classes to artificially boost their GPA when their MCAT had already shown they were proficient, essentially buying their way into medical school. This is not an option that many can afford.

Let's also not forget that not all PB GPA's are the same and some are significantly more difficult than others. But that's the same issue that we have with undergrad GPA's.

 

[altblue]

I found this if anyone is interested.

https://www.princeton.edu/hpa/premed/prospective-students/2014HPAFrequentlyAskedQuestions.pdf

The average MCAT for Princeton students is 32.7, but the average accepted applicant from Princeton has a 34.9. I think the people who scored too low on the MCAT didn't bother applying or were encouraged to not apply because that's a pretty big jump and the pdf says 85-95% of applicants get in somewhere.

32.7 is significantly lower than I had expected from a grade-deflatin' Top 5 school.

I'm beginning to doubt the advice that one should "go to a hard school that'll prepare you for the MCAT".

 

[altblue]

In the world of SDN, no stats are reliable!

But I like how math-adverse pre-meds (like myself?) are suddenly master statisticians when med school admissions come up.

 

[SympatricSpeciation]

I would consider a year of lost income and taking out a loan for a PB that doesn't guarantee acceptance to be a major setback. At worst, the person doesn't get into medical school and is stuck with a useless certificate or master's degree along with another ~40K in debt in addition to their debt from undergrad. At best, they are spending money on unnecessary classes to artificially boost their GPA when their MCAT had already shown they were proficient, essentially buying their way into medical school. This is not an option that many can afford.

Let's also not forget that not all PB GPA's are the same and some are significantly more difficult than others. But that's the same issue that we have with undergrad GPA's.

Right. It's not the most ideal of situations, and it is a setback, of course. We are talking here about making the best of an unfavorable situation in OP's subpar GPA. But in the grand scheme of things, if you know in your heart of hearts that you want that MD degree, it is worth taking the risk. Sure, some may not be able to afford it, but clearly OP is doing it and my comment concerned OP's specific case, so that's neither here nor there.

 

[nOchemallday]

32.7 is significantly lower than I had expected from a grade-deflatin' Top 5 school.

That surprises me as well. For a school which selects students (almost) exclusively from the 96th percentile and above for SAT scores (i.e. strong test takers) to average in the 88th percentile on the MCAT. Not to mention these types of statistics are usually inflated when so freely offered by the school. For a grade deflating institution I would have thought attrition would be more pervasive, thus yielding better scores; but perhaps not.

Regardless, with respect to the whole "we should standardize everything" proposition above: isn't that what the MCAT is for?

 

[Mad Jack]

So earlier this year I graduated from a top 30 undergraduate university with a low GPA (3.21), so this Fall I began a DIY post-bacc program at my local State College in order to improve my GPA...I am taking five upper level biology courses, each with a laboratory component. 28 hours of class/lab a week in total.

At my alma mater, taking five laboratory courses in one semester would have been suicide. In fact, the premedical advisers strongly urged students to never take more than ONE lab course a semester since they were notoriously difficult...Taking five science courses, lab or not, was just unheard of.

Nevertheless, I have a high A average in each of these classes at the moment, with my lowest exam grade being a 97%. It sounds pretentious, but it is the objective truth that I am unambiguously the #1 student in each of my classes in terms of grades, class participation, and mastery over the material. Moreover, I am pulling off these grades with minimal effort. I only study for a couple hours the night before the exams, and I ace them with ease while my state-school classmates bemoan how "impossible" the courses are. I should note that I have never taken these classes before. They represent 100% brand-new material to me.

In short, I am utterly SHOCKED by the disparity in rigor between my alma mater, which isn't even top 20 (though our SAT scores are), and this average state school. I mean, a senior level biochemistry course at this state school isn't even half as difficult as the introductory biology course taken by freshmen at my alma mater. Having experienced both schools firsthand, it is absolutely MIND-BOGGLING and disturbing to me that GPA's from these two establishments are supposedly given the same weight. Whenever one of my state-school classmates tells me that he/she is planning on going to medical school, I smile and nod as I die a little bit on the inside knowing that they may have a statistically better shot than me even though they struggle with basic concepts of the sciences.

What. the. ****.

 

[Mad Jack]

The issue here is the people that can get into Harvard that choose an easy school. Chances he can do well on the MCAT are high and chances he could get good high grades is very high.

Why work harder when you can work smarter? The vast majority of your undergraduate degree is worthless in medical school, so going to a more difficult school to learn even more about a bunch of crap you'll never use is pointless.

 

[PantherPride]

That surprises me as well. For a school which selects students (almost) exclusively from the 96th percentile and above for SAT scores (i.e. strong test takers) to average in the 88th percentile on the MCAT. Not to mention these types of statistics are usually inflated when so freely offered by the school. For a grade deflating institution I would have thought attrition would be more pervasive, thus yielding better scores; but perhaps not.

Regardless, with respect to the whole "we should standardize everything" proposition above: isn't that what the MCAT is for?

An average 33 mcat is fairly high. I think for a top school that sounds right (33-34). At my state school I think the average applicant has a 27-28 MCAT, and that excludes people who took the MCAT and didn't apply. Another thing to keep in mind is you cant compare percentiles between the SAT and MCAT: two completely different populations taking each test

 

[RogueUnicorn]

so after 5 pages of this, what has been gained by anyone?

 

[WillburCobb]

so after 5 pages of this, what has been gained by anyone?

 

[altblue]

freaking lol'd

 

[efle]

so after 5 pages of this, what has been gained by anyone?

I dunno, after 2000 years has the problem of evil really been resolved at all? Did your post contribute anything? I always find these sorts of threads entertaining, so I gained something.

 

[radkat101]

Why work harder when you can work smarter? The vast majority of your undergraduate degree is worthless in medical school, so going to a more difficult school to learn even more about a bunch of crap you'll never use is pointless.

Exactly. Must be rough for some of these indebted top 10 grads to be in med school right alongside their community college classmates. Who's REALLY the smarter one in this situation?

 

[alpinism]

I found this if anyone is interested.

https://www.princeton.edu/hpa/premed/prospective-students/2014HPAFrequentlyAskedQuestions.pdf

The average MCAT for Princeton students is 32.7, but the average accepted applicant from Princeton has a 34.9. I think the people who scored too low on the MCAT didn't bother applying or were encouraged to not apply because that's a pretty big jump and the pdf says 85-95% of applicants get in somewhere.

32.7 is significantly lower than I had expected from a grade-deflatin' Top 5 school.

I'm beginning to doubt the advice that one should "go to a hard school that'll prepare you for the MCAT".

That surprises me as well. For a school which selects students (almost) exclusively from the 96th percentile and above for SAT scores (i.e. strong test takers) to average in the 88th percentile on the MCAT. Not to mention these types of statistics are usually inflated when so freely offered by the school. For a grade deflating institution I would have thought attrition would be more pervasive, thus yielding better scores; but perhaps not.

Regardless, with respect to the whole "we should standardize everything" proposition above: isn't that what the MCAT is for?

Here's the thing though, MCAT scores are self reported. That means that the only data universities have is from applying students who choose to release their scores. That 32.7 is very likely only from students who ended up applying and releasing their scores to Princeton.

The true average for Princeton is almost guaranteed to be 1-2 points lower.

 

[Lamel]

That surprises me as well. For a school which selects students (almost) exclusively from the 96th percentile and above for SAT scores (i.e. strong test takers) to average in the 88th percentile on the MCAT. Not to mention these types of statistics are usually inflated when so freely offered by the school. For a grade deflating institution I would have thought attrition would be more pervasive, thus yielding better scores; but perhaps not.

Regardless, with respect to the whole "we should standardize everything" proposition above: isn't that what the MCAT is for?

32.7 is significantly lower than I had expected from a grade-deflatin' Top 5 school.

I'm beginning to doubt the advice that one should "go to a hard school that'll prepare you for the MCAT".

Really? 33 is low? That's like 90th percentile out of all premeds who take the exam. That, and the SAT and MCAT are very different. A 33 for students while the nationwide applicant average is 28 is incredible!

 

[efle]

Here's the thing though, MCAT scores are self reported. That means that the only data universities have is from applying students who choose to release their scores. That 32.7 is very likely only from students who ended up applying and releasing their scores to Princeton.

The true average for Princeton is almost guaranteed to be 1-2 points lower.

Dunno about that, talking to the person who runs my uni's MCAT prep course, a representative sample of students take the course and they all agree to report diagnostic and actual MCAT total + subsection scores for analysis and course improvements. The numbers for my uni were diagnostic average 28, mean improvement slightly under 6 points to about a 33.5, which matches pretty well with the 32.7 considering premed is the strongest thing about my school.

 

[Lamel]

Why work harder when you can work smarter? The vast majority of your undergraduate degree is worthless in medical school, so going to a more difficult school to learn even more about a bunch of crap you'll never use is pointless.

I dunno, undergrad shouldn't just be a means to get to medical school. It is a time to develop, broaden your horizons, and truly learn some cool stuff. Everything in life shouldn't be for the sake of getting into medical school.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

I dunno, after 2000 years has the problem of evil really been resolved at all? Did your post contribute anything? I always find these sorts of threads entertaining, so I gained something.

an interesting choice of date and problem, you should try reading a book that isn't the bible once in a while. what makes you think i intend to contribute anything?

Exactly. Must be rough for some of these indebted top 10 grads to be in med school right alongside their community college classmates. Who's REALLY the smarter one in this situation?

bet you most those guys have way fewer loans than their cc/state school classmates. but you keep on keeping on man

Here's the thing though, MCAT scores are self reported.

i seem to recall i released my scores directly to my undergrad when i took the thing

 

[Afford]

I dunno, undergrad shouldn't just be a means to get to medical school. It is a time to develop, broaden your horizons, and truly learn some cool stuff. Everything in life shouldn't be for the sake of getting into medical school.

I agree. Not everyone comes in as pre-med and many pre-meds decide to drop in the next 4 years. I didn't start thinking about pre-med until my sophomore year.

 

[altblue]

Really? 33 is low? That's like 90th percentile out of all premeds who take the exam. That, and the SAT and MCAT are very different. A 33 for students while the nationwide applicant average is 28 is incredible!

Good point, but maybe that's primarily caused by net test taking ability, and not the GPA wrecker that is Princeton undergrad.

 

[Afford]

Really? 33 is low? That's like 90th percentile out of all premeds who take the exam. That, and the SAT and MCAT are very different. A 33 for students while the nationwide applicant average is 28 is incredible!

There probably is a correlation between the SAT and MCAT just because they're both tests and someone who is good at taking tests can eliminate wrong answer choices more easily. From the Wash U handbook, it looks like their average applicant MCAT is also 32-33. I feel that the only reason that there's a correlation between the MCAT and Step 1 is that they're both tests and people who are good at test taking strategies will do well in both.

 

[bluejay456]

in my honest opinion GPA is meaningless in how it is evaluated now. it's just way too variable. for example, I was an engineering major at a pretty good engineering school and our professors rotated every once in a while in what course they taught. a class last year that gave out 1 A could give out 50% As the next. that's just intra-program variability then there is intra school variability (major vs major) and inter school variability (school vs. school). just think of GPA as a threshold. try and get above a 3.5 to be competitive. I'm sure admissions officers have a general idea of how to adjust the exact GPA by school and major (I hope lol)

 

[acapnial]

There probably is a correlation between the SAT and MCAT just because they're both tests and someone who is good at taking tests can eliminate wrong answer choices more easily. From the Wash U handbook, it looks like their average applicant MCAT is also 32-33. I feel that the only reason that there's a correlation between the MCAT and Step 1 is that they're both tests and people who are good at test taking strategies will do well in both.

Good at taking tests or good at preparing for tests? 90% of the people I knew who did poorly on the MCAT thought they were bad at taking standardized tests, but about 90% of those people just had awful plans to go about studying for the MCAT, so they didn't really develop that strong of a knowledge base. If you have a good basis in english and math, then the SAT becomes a game of using logic on the spot, and you can get a good score without any extra preparation, but on the MCAT, you can't use good testing skills to get around knowing the material.

 

[Afford]

Good at taking tests or good at preparing for tests? 90% of the people I knew who did poorly on the MCAT thought they were bad at taking standardized tests, but about 90% of those people just had awful plans to go about studying for the MCAT, so they didn't really develop that strong of a knowledge base. If you have a good basis in english and math, then the SAT becomes a game of using logic on the spot, and you can get a good score without any extra preparation, but on the MCAT, you can't use good testing skills to get around knowing the material.

I'm not trying to say that someone who got a 2400 on the SAT will get a 35+ on the MCAT. I just feel that there are universal test taking strategies, like keeping a good pace, eliminating wrong answers, reading passages well, extracting correct information from passages, etc. that transfer over to any standardized test, so that helps contribute to a higher average test score.

 

[Mad Jack]

I dunno, undergrad shouldn't just be a means to get to medical school. It is a time to develop, broaden your horizons, and truly learn some cool stuff. Everything in life shouldn't be for the sake of getting into medical school.

You can use all that time you save not studying every moment of the day to enjoy your life, make friends, volunteer, whatever. It's a win-win-win.

 

[SympatricSpeciation]

You can use all that time you save not studying every moment of the day to enjoy your life, make friends, volunteer, whatever. It's a win-win-win.

You clearly did not broaden your horizons.

 

[Kochanie]

Why work harder when you can work smarter? The vast majority of your undergraduate degree is worthless in medical school, so going to a more difficult school to learn even more about a bunch of crap you'll never use is pointless.

If only I knew that then, but I disagree. Even though it looks like I'm one bitter person, I'm happy I learned how to study. If I somehow got into medical school studying the way I did in high school, I'd probably drop out.

 

[Lamel]

You can use all that time you save not studying every moment of the day to enjoy your life, make friends, volunteer, whatever. It's a win-win-win.

You're assuming students at top schools can't do all that?

 

[Mad Jack]

You're assuming students at top schools can't do all that?

I'm assuming they'll have substantially less time to if the material they are covering is substantially more difficult in all of their courses.

 

[Mad Jack]

You clearly did not broaden your horizons.

I spent 11 years living a pretty awesome life before med school. My horizons are certainly broader than you could fit into your EC time at a top 30 lol.

 

[Lamel]

I'm assuming they'll have substantially less time to if the material they are covering is substantially more difficult in all of their courses.

Well the assumption doesn't really hold true, there is plenty of time to go around. My main point was that picking the easy way out because of medical school is a bit short sighted. Success as a pre-med is very possible at top schools as well, and if you are able to succeed in a rigorous program I am confident that you get those brownie points when it comes to admissions. In the end, it really depends on what your goals are. If the end-all be-all goal is to get into a medical school, then yes the path of least resistance will favor you, but it may also be a detriment in terms of personal and academic growth.

That being said, I think it depends on what people say when they compare "state school" to "top school". Many state schools have excellent programs that are rigorous as well (and I am not talking just about UCB or UMich, there are many other quality state schools out there that are overlooked like Wisconsin, Rutgers, Penn, Florida etc.), and many of these schools have excellent resources etc. as well, so you won't really be missing out too much on all the advantages of the elite schools, and the competition will still be pretty fierce. But then there are state schools that are totally unranked with little resources and low selectivity - those are likely the ones that have the immense rigor difference that OP is complaining about.

So in the end, I am not saying you can't broaden your horizons and truly learn unless you end up at a top school, but there is a difference between certain schools that are unranked/not selective and the rigor in their programs when compared to other more established schools.

 

[SympatricSpeciation]

I spent 11 years living a pretty awesome life before med school. My horizons are certainly broader than you could fit into your EC time at a top 30 lol.

👍

 

[Mad Jack]

Well the assumption doesn't really hold true, there is plenty of time to go around. My main point was that picking the easy way out because of medical school is a bit short sighted. Success as a pre-med is very possible at top schools as well, and if you are able to succeed in a rigorous program I am confident that you get those brownie points when it comes to admissions. In the end, it really depends on what your goals are. If the end-all be-all goal is to get into a medical school, then yes the path of least resistance will favor you, but it may also be a detriment in terms of personal and academic growth.

That being said, I think it depends on what people say when they compare "state school" to "top school". Many state schools have excellent programs that are rigorous as well (and I am not talking just about UCB or UMich, there are many other quality state schools out there that are overlooked like Wisconsin, Rutgers, Penn, Florida etc.), and many of these schools have excellent resources etc. as well, so you won't really be missing out too much on all the advantages of the elite schools, and the competition will still be pretty fierce. But then there are state schools that are totally unranked with little resources and low selectivity - those are likely the ones that have the immense rigor difference that OP is complaining about.

So in the end, I am not saying you can't broaden your horizons and truly learn unless you end up at a top school, but there is a difference between certain schools that are unranked/not selective and the rigor in their programs when compared to other more established schools.

Undergrad is what you make of it. I didn't need competition or some hard-ass teacher breathing down my neck with the threat of bad grades to make me learn the material well. I just happened to have the added bonus of a significantly lower level of stress associated with my learning experience. I learned it well enough, despite not going to some top 30 or whatever, as evidenced by my 35 on the MCAT, so clearly learning and comprehension outcomes aren't directly correlated to what school you attend.

 

[Lamel]

Undergrad is what you make of it. I didn't need competition or some hard-ass teacher breathing down my neck with the threat of bad grades to make me learn the material well. I just happened to have the added bonus of a significantly lower level of stress associated with my learning experience. I learned it well enough, despite not going to some top 30 or whatever, as evidenced by my 35 on the MCAT, so clearly learning and comprehension outcomes aren't directly correlated to what school you attend.

Agreed with the bold. But I think the stereotype of all work no play at top schools is often exaggerated, especially on this site. It is very variable between institutions and majors.

In general I don't think it is the schools preparing you really well for the MCAT (I'm sure this plays a part though), but the quality of student at elite institutions that leads to their high MCAT averages.

 

[efle]

an interesting choice of date and problem, you should try reading a book that isn't the bible once in a while. what makes you think i intend to contribute anything?

i seem to recall i released my scores directly to my undergrad when i took the thing

what now? the PoE isn't even biblical, choice of date was because the nature and reasonableness of gods was a major topic in the centuries surrounding 0AD.

Look, you did contribute something! My uni also asks for direct score release, so they know it's accurate.

Agreed with the bold. But I think the stereotype of all work no play at top schools is often exaggerated, especially on this site. It is very variable between institutions and majors.

In general I don't think it is the schools preparing you really well for the MCAT (I'm sure this plays a part though), but the quality of student at elite institutions that leads to their high MCAT averages.

Seconded. Amount of work devoted to academics can afford to be lower when coming in average means earning an A- (looking at you duke/dartmouth/harvard and a few others), its much more common to have overworked, miserable students at tough graders full of gunners like JHop. And I know at my university, Physics and General Chemistry are not a good way to prep for MCAT at all (eg. Physics does not include any optics or water pressure/buoyancy and gen chem is entirely quantum stuff like particle in a box models). The strong MCAT performance is mostly because the students are all standardized-test dominators.

 

[tmn]

Top 30?!!!!!???!!?!;;;21?!

 

[efle]

Careful man, people will mock you for going to lowly U Phoenix med around here.

Top 30?!!!!!???!!?!;;;21?!

 

[tmn]

Careful man, people will mock you for going to lowly U Phoenix med around here.

Guilty

 

[justadream]

Yes, some top schools (e.g., Harvard) might be "grade-inflated" but I can assure you getting an A there is not a cakewalk. Most science classes are curved to B+ and you need to score 1 SD above to get a solid A. Scoring 1 SD above your peer group is not easy (unless you really are super smart)....