Top IM programs without AOA?

[ChessMaster3000]

---

Members do not see this ad.

I'm wondering what the consensus is for getting into the top 3-5 IM programs without AOA membership. I have an extremely strong class this year at my school and even though my clinical grades are extremely solid, they aren't perfect, and I think that could likely be the difference between getting aoa and not. given the strong grades, it would be really disappointing if i wasn't considered for those programs simply because of AOA status (as in, if anyone took a look at my actual grades they would see that got only one high pass).

So, I dont want to sound like im complaining, im very happy with my grades, it just would be a shame if otherwise stellar grades didn't result in AOA, which then didnt result in being considered for top IM programs

any thoughts would be appreciated!

 

[johndoe3344]

Depends what medical school you're coming from.

Hopkins? Sure, no problem.
Unranked state school? I hope you cured cancer.

 

[amine2086]

Depends what medical school you're coming from.

This. Your medical school does matter. If you are from a top 20 medical school, you will likely be fine. But if you are from a school where everyone tend to honor everything (Deans letter will breakdown what % of the class got honors in each rotation), your chance of matching at one of the top programs belongs in the toss-up category. Other things such as research, whether or not you are a MD/PhD, who wrote your LORs, how well you interview, etc will also contribute.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

Is there a reliable rank list for IM programs that is not US World and News Report? I keep hearing bad things about that list.

 

[johndoe3344]

Is there a reliable rank list for IM programs that is not US World and News Report? I keep hearing bad things about that list.

While I'm also perfectly capable of giving the typical reply of "there is no objective rank list, fit is the most important", I figure there'll be plenty of others to do that.

To answer the question though: Not a reliable one. But you will find lists that different people have thrown together. For example...

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/a-final-top-30-im-programs-list-for-posteritys-sake.705041/
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/preempting-the-inevitible-rankings-thread.751250/

...is a good place to start.

Also you can scour past years' "Help me Rank" threads to get a sense of how people on this board feel about the reputation of various IM programs.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

While I'm also perfectly capable of giving the typical reply of "there is no objective rank list, fit is the most important", I figure there'll be plenty of others to do that.

To answer the question though: Not a reliable one. But you will find lists that different people have thrown together. For example...

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/a-final-top-30-im-programs-list-for-posteritys-sake.705041/
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/preempting-the-inevitible-rankings-thread.751250/

...is a good place to start.

Also you can scour past years' "Help me Rank" threads to get a sense of how people on this board feel about the reputation of various IM programs.

Thanks so much. I really appreciate it. A general idea is more than enough and these links should do it.

 

[pithecanthropus]

How much AOA matters seems to vary by program. Even among those that care a lot about AOA, they will read your application in enough depth to figure out whether they like you regardless of AOA. I was not AOA, but several interviewers presumed that I was based on their own reading of my application (until I corrected them). It's not a standardized system; each school has its own criteria with different weights assigned to different components. Fortunately for those of us who don't fare well under our schools' formulas, programs will generally do their own math.

 

[ChessMaster3000]

How much AOA matters seems to vary by program. Even among those that care a lot about AOA, they will read your application in enough depth to figure out whether they like you regardless of AOA. I was not AOA, but several interviewers presumed that I was based on their own reading of my application (until I corrected them). It's not a standardized system; each school has its own criteria with different weights assigned to different components. Fortunately for those of us who don't fare well under our schools' formulas, programs will generally do their own math.

Thanks for this info. My main question was simply whether top IM programs strictly screen based on AOA.

 

[Instatewaiter]

I'm wondering what the consensus is for getting into the top 3-5 IM programs without AOA membership. I have an extremely strong class this year at my school and even though my clinical grades are extremely solid, they aren't perfect, and I think that could likely be the difference between getting aoa and not. given the strong grades, it would be really disappointing if i wasn't considered for those programs simply because of AOA status (as in, if anyone took a look at my actual grades they would see that got only one high pass).

So, I dont want to sound like im complaining, im very happy with my grades, it just would be a shame if otherwise stellar grades didn't result in AOA, which then didnt result in being considered for top IM programs

any thoughts would be appreciated!

A lot of places, AOA is political/not objective. So if you have AOA level scores and don't get AOA, yes you can get into a top program

 

[amine2086]

Thanks for this info. My main question was simply whether top IM programs strictly screen based on AOA.

No. Every year people without AOA get into "top" programs.

 

[throw away]

I go to a school where EVERYTHING, including AOA, is very political. I did not get AOA because I wasn't involved in any student government activities which is basically required. You also have to be buddies with the deans. It is probably an old-school, east coast thing.

My lack of AOA never came up in interviews. Plenty of my interviewers called my academic performance strong or impressive even though I didn't get AOA. I interviewed at two top 10 programs but no top 5 programs (though I guess a "top 5" list would be rather subjective). I matched at a top 10. AOA probably would have helped but I did perfectly fine without it. I think that AOA, just like away rotations, is much more important for surgical specialties and ROAD than for IM.

It should be noted that I came from a upper-tier school but not a top 10, maybe not even a top 25.

 

[DermViser]

Depends what medical school you're coming from.

Hopkins? Sure, no problem.
Unranked state school? I hope you cured cancer.

Wait but I thought all med schools are equal? It doesn matter which medical school you go to, amirite? /sarc off

 

[Kaputt]

OP, may I remind you that you go to Penn (per your post history). You'll be okay.

 

[Flavivirus]

Not being AOA is okay. Much more of a problem if you don't have honors in medicine and/or your medicine sub-I.

 

[disorder]

Not being AOA is okay. Much more of a problem if you don't have honors in medicine and/or your medicine sub-I.

It also depends on where you went to med school and grade distribution. Again, the previous more important than the latter.

 

[rd31]

Not being AOA is okay. Much more of a problem if you don't have honors in medicine and/or your medicine sub-I.

What if you're AOA, honors in med sub-I, but no honors in medicine core rotation?

 

[gutonc]

What if you're AOA, honors in med sub-I, but no honors in medicine core rotation?

Community program in South Dakota.

Which part of "and/or" was confusing to you?

 

[lymphohystiocytosis]

What if you're AOA, honors in med sub-I, but no honors in medicine core rotation?

Umm, what do you think? I'm no expert, but I'll say that's a whole lot better than not being AOA, or not honoring your sub-I. Your app would be better if you honored medicine. Shocking.

Your entire application matters. Nobody can tell you that just because you didn't honor med you won't get into a top flight program. Your school's reputation, grading policy, board scores, and a lot more will all contribute. Just send the applications and see what interviews you get.

FWIW, I know a guy who got into UofC (his top choice) without an H in medicine. He also interviewed at NW. Those aren't the top four, but they're pretty damn good places to learn to be a doctor.

 

[Bronxzoo]

OP, may I remind you that you go to Penn (per your post history). You'll be okay.

yeah, if you go to Penn for medical school... you should not be worrying

and yes, every year there are people that make it to top IM programs without AOA, but generally require either going to a great med school (which OP has) or great research/PhD degree

 

[mongol1985]

.

 

[ChessMaster3000]

I have a similar question - my school uses grades from all 4 years for AOA status and class rank. In this regard, how important is class rank/AOA compared to doing well in the third year? I'm in the second quintile for my preclinical years, and will most likely not get AOA even if I do extremely well in my third year. However, would my doing well (i.e. mostly As) in third year make up for the fact that I'm not AOA/top quintile overall because of the first two years?

I've always been told that the clinical years are the most important. But at the same time, some people have been telling me that given the huge number of applicants, some of the top programs won't even have time to look at the breakdown of our clinical performance (i.e. if we honored medicine or did well in the clinical years but not so much in the preclinical), but would rather use our overall GPA/Rank/AOA, instead ,to evaluate us academically.

Highly doubt they will not check out your medicine grades

 

[Beacopp665]

I have a similar question - my school uses grades from all 4 years for AOA status and class rank. In this regard, how important is class rank/AOA compared to doing well in the third year? I'm in the second quintile for my preclinical years, and will most likely not get AOA even if I do extremely well in my third year. However, would my doing well (i.e. mostly As) in third year make up for the fact that I'm not AOA/top quintile overall because of the first two years?

I've always been told that the clinical years are the most important. But at the same time, some people have been telling me that given the huge number of applicants, some of the top programs won't even have time to look at the breakdown of our clinical performance (i.e. if we honored medicine or did well in the clinical years but not so much in the preclinical), but would rather use our overall GPA/Rank/AOA, instead ,to evaluate us academically.

Honestly most programs look at the whole package of an applicant to get a sense of where they are academically and doing well third year is certainly a part of that. However, if you don't get passed their step 1 filter then they obviously won't see those regardless

 

[throw away]

I got into a top 10-15 without AOA, so it is possible. No one even mentioned my lack of AOA in interviews. Then again, I went to a top 20-25 med school, so that probably helped. Also I did really well in med school, just went to a place where AOA was political.

But I have to say this: I picked a medical school based off rank and it was a very bad fit. I hated it there by the end. I interviewed at a top 5 and I got the same vibe as my medical school. So even though they gave my school's PD feedback that they were ranking me to match, I choose not to go there. And I couldn't be more thankful for my choice. So long as you get into the higher tier of programs, rank isn't everything!! I would not recommend choosing a top 5 over a top 25 based on rank alone.