Top med school vs mid tier ?

[yalla22]

From all of my research it seems that all that matters about geting into a top residency position is board scores and 3rd year grades...taking this into account then, what factor does med school prestige play? I've heard from people that i work with (at an ivy med school) that top schools have a lot of pull w residency directors and that even if you are ranked in the middle of your class they will be able to get you a position in a competitive specialty such as derm just because you came from a top school...whereas this isnt the case for those that come from mid tier schools. Is this the case? If you assume equal board scores, does the rank of a school you have come from make a difference? Is it better to have higher board scores and come from a mid tier or lower and come from a higher tier med school (i know this isnt usually the case, but hypothetically speaking)...

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[DoctorFunk]

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[chandelantern]

Yes, most if not all will consider the med school you went to. Will it carry more weight than board scores, letters, interview, etc? probably not. From the residency directors I have talked to, some actually apply a numerical function to applicants from different schools, others look at it more subjectively. All program admissions are run differently so you don't know how much weight it will carry.

 

[smq123]

I've heard from people that i work with (at an ivy med school) that top schools have a lot of pull w residency directors and that even if you are ranked in the middle of your class they will be able to get you a position in a competitive specialty such as derm just because you came from a top school...whereas this isnt the case for those that come from mid tier schools. Is this the case?

Who are these people that you work with? Residency directors, or just regular receptionists/secretaries?

Is it better to have higher board scores and come from a mid tier or lower and come from a higher tier med school (i know this isnt usually the case, but hypothetically speaking)...

I'd probably assume mid tier with higher board scores...

Honestly, it really doesn't make much of a difference. What you do during your third and fourth year, and how you do on boards, is a bigger deal.

 

[Tired Pigeon]

Here we go again.

 

[smq123]

Here we go again.

Yes, but give yalla some credit. Most threads like this tend to go along the lines of "Should I apply to State Med School, where I know that I'll definitely be #1 in my class, or should I apply to Harvard, where I'll probably just be in the middle of the pack? Help me decide!!" At least this one didn't make me want to poke the OP's eyes out.

Yalla22, I don't know why you're asking, but if you're concerned because you'll be attending a "mid-tier" school next year - don't be. If you work hard and try to do well on your rotations and your USMLE 1, you'll be just fine.

 

[yalla22]

Yes, but give yalla some credit. Most threads like this tend to go along the lines of "Should I apply to State Med School, where I know that I'll definitely be #1 in my class, or should I apply to Harvard, where I'll probably just be in the middle of the pack? Help me decide!!" At least this one didn't make me want to poke the OP's eyes out.

Yalla22, I don't know why you're asking, but if you're concerned because you'll be attending a "mid-tier" school next year - don't be. If you work hard and try to do well on your rotations and your USMLE 1, you'll be just fine.

Well the reason i'm concerned is the mid-tier schools match list, its nothing like the school that i currently work at...i'm going to assume that there were kids that did really well on the boards in the graduating class, but yet there werent really any big names on the list (maybe like 4 or 5 in not so competitive specialties)...i dont know, i'm just trying to figure the system out so that i have peace of mind...i'd like to do residency in an academic institution, where i could be involved w research and what not...(really dont want to be in a non-researchy hospital! and 97% of the graduating class is going into schools like that...of course, maybe thats where they want to be? who knows...) ugh....

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Well the reason i'm concerned is the mid-tier schools match list, its nothing like the school that i currently work at...i'm going to assume that there were kids that did really well on the boards in the graduating class, but yet there werent really any big names on the list (maybe like 4 or 5 in not so competitive specialties)...i dont know, i'm just trying to figure the system out so that i have peace of mind...i'd like to do residency in an academic institution, where i could be involved w research and what not...(really dont want to be in a non-researchy hospital! and 97% of the graduating class is going into schools like that...of course, maybe thats where they want to be? who knows...) ugh....

I'm sort of puzzled by this 97% figure. Most academic hospitals do research and give residents the opportunity to participate in that. Somehow I doubt that 97% or whatever of the mid tier class is only matching into community hospitals. They might not all be going to Harvard, but University of Nebraska (just throwing that out as a random example) has academic hospitals with research.

So my hunch is that you're not so much looking to match into an "academic institution" -- you want to match into a top 25 or whatever "academic institution."

 

[yalla22]

So my hunch is that you're not so much looking to match into an "academic institution" -- you want to match into a top 25 or whatever "academic institution."

yeah basically that would be ideal...

 

[smq123]

i'm going to assume that there were kids that did really well on the boards in the graduating class, but yet there werent really any big names on the list (maybe like 4 or 5 in not so competitive specialties.

Well, even with "non-competitive" specialties, it's all relative. Look at it this way - pediatrics is a "non-competitive" specialty. But getting into Boston Children's or Children's Hospital of Philadelphia, even in pediatrics, is very, very tough.

i'd like to do residency in an academic institution, where i could be involved w research and what not...(really dont want to be in a non-researchy hospital! and 97% of the graduating class is going into schools like that...of course, maybe thats where they want to be? who knows...) ugh....

That really might be where they want to be! Unless you know the people who are in that class, you have no idea. If they have kids in the 8-10 year old range, they might not want to move far away and uproot their kids. They might have been limited by going into a couples match. Talking to the 4th years at my school, a lot of them had a lot of limitations. Many of them were engaged, to people who had jobs in a certain area and didn't want to leave. Some of them are engaged to other med students who are a year or so behind them - they didn't want to move out to California suddenly either. Unless you know the back story, it's impossible to say which is a "good" residency match or not. Some people HATE research, and want to be in a community hospital where they see patients all day, every day. It's hard to say.

Plus, there are some schools that may not sound very prestigious, but do great research. Pitt is one of them (although it's reputation is building). It's all relative.

 

[soeagerun2or]

yeah basically that would be ideal...

Lol what? It's everyone's ideal.

 

[smq123]

yeah basically that would be ideal...

P.S. If you'd like to PM me with the specific schools that you're talking about, maybe I can give you a different perspective, and give you some peace of mind. Feel free.

 

[yalla22]

Lol what? It's everyone's ideal.

no i dont think its everyones ideal..some dont care for research and would rather be in a community hospital...but of course, theres no way to tell this from a match list.

 

[moomix906]

can anyone besides a residency director really say? theres just too many confounding factors, for one thing, the top schools naturally have the best students. And also, maybe only like a handful of schools have everybody match into a 'top 25' program - even the elite schools have some people here or there who match to a not prestigious program(and not on purpose). I personally would rather bank on higher board scores than my dean making some calls

but then, if your 'mid tier' school barely has anyone match into a big name, its not very mid tier, is it? what are you considering as mid tier?

 

[TheMightyAngus]

From all of my research it seems that all that matters about geting into a top residency position is board scores and 3rd year grades...taking this into account then, what factor does med school prestige play? I've heard from people that i work with (at an ivy med school) that top schools have a lot of pull w residency directors and that even if you are ranked in the middle of your class they will be able to get you a position in a competitive specialty such as derm just because you came from a top school...whereas this isnt the case for those that come from mid tier schools. Is this the case? If you assume equal board scores, does the rank of a school you have come from make a difference? Is it better to have higher board scores and come from a mid tier or lower and come from a higher tier med school (i know this isnt usually the case, but hypothetically speaking)...

Derm/plastics/rad onc/etc are very small fields with relatively few residency places. There might be 80-100+ applicants per residency spot. Do you really think that prestige is going to help you beat out 99% of other candidates? Probably not.

 

[lord_jeebus]

Derm/plastics/rad onc/etc are very small fields with relatively few residency places. There might be 80-100+ applicants per residency spot. Do you really think that prestige is going to help you beat out 99% of other candidates? Probably not.

That's sort of a misleading statement, since nearly the same pool of applicants is applying for each spot, with at worst about a 2:1 ratio of applicants to spots. You just need to place yourself in the top fraction of applicants, not make yourself #1.

 

[Hednej]

I know that everybody says on this board that the board scores and clinical grades are like 85% of the story, but I just can't believe that.

Look at it this way. For med school admissions, let's pick some school like Harvard (and I think this generalization will apply to any of the top classes). How many of the entering class are from Harvard? well, maybe around 40, 50. How many are from Yale, Stanford, Columbia, Duke, etc... probably around 80. Throw in a kid from Berkeley, some random liberal arts colleges and big univerisities and you get yourself a class of 165.

I think it's going to be the same for residency. If you look at the matchlists, how many of the kids from Harvard matched at BWH and MGH? a ridiculous number, like 30 or 40. How many from Hopkins matched at MGH and BWH? another ridiculous number like 36. How many from Yale? around 10-12. How many from Penn, UCSF, etc... and just go down the list.
And then how many from lets say Vanderbilt? 2, maybe 3. How many from BU? maybe none this year, but they might have had last year. How many from some mid tier school? Probably none, but maybe they had one three years ago.

You see where I'm going? IMHO, you will have a much much better chance of matching at a top academic institution if you go to the better school.

 

[smq123]

I know that everybody says on this board that the board scores and clinical grades are like 85% of the story, but I just can't believe that.

I think it's going to be the same for residency. If you look at the matchlists, how many of the kids from Harvard matched at BWH and MGH? a ridiculous number, like 30 or 40. How many from Hopkins matched at MGH and BWH? another ridiculous number like 36. How many from Yale? around 10-12. How many from Penn, UCSF, etc... and just go down the list.
And then how many from lets say Vanderbilt? 2, maybe 3. How many from BU? maybe none this year, but they might have had last year. How many from some mid tier school? Probably none, but maybe they had one three years ago.

And I think that your reasoning isn't very sound. Sorry.

You're ignoring the importance of connections - if you go to Harvard, you'll have a better chance of meeting the residency director at Harvard, and being familiar to him/her. If you go to Yale, there's a good chance that one of the attendings there is good friends with the residency director at Harvard. Having good connections isn't impossible if you go to another school, though.

Talk to a bunch of 4th years from a variety of schools. Ask how many of them had other obligations that kept them from applying all over the country. Fiancees, families, kids, etc - not everyone in the US wants to apply to Harvard. And a lot of the kids at Harvard probably have non-school-related reasons for wanting to stay in Boston.

Plus, it is considered an advantage to have students from your institution do their residency at the same institution. Unlike in college, having clinicians who are already familiar with the community, and don't have to adjust too much, is very important.

I know that it's hard to believe, because it's counterintuitive from what you've been conditioned to believe when applying for med school. (And I know from your other posts that you'll be entering med school this year, so it wasn't that long ago for you.) But, thanks to the USMLE, the LCME, and the nature of core clinical rotations, it's a much more level playing field.

 

[moomix906]

i dont know about harvard, but based on my interviews and nabbing a copy of student handbooks with class rosters inside, columbia and penn both only have about 10-15 students of their own in a given year. That said, add up 10 students from every one of the top schools in the nation and you have a sizeable class. But there are still like 20-30 students in a given year from undergrads that aren't self congratulatory.

You have a point Hednej, but there are a lot of complicating issues. If a top med school accepts a lot of the best applicants, then these kids will probably also do extremly well on boards or research or whatnot,so its really not possible to say that residency directors took them just cause they went to a top school(unless you can find a blatant example of some underhand dealing). Its really a result of compounding advantages. Sure, you'll defintely have a better chance of nabbing a top spot if you go to a top school...but odds are you probably are a great medical student and would deserve the spot of your own merit too if you go to a top school in the first place, not because you went to a top school. And in that case, you may be just as likely to kick butt during the match wherever you go to medical school

 

[Hednej]

I definitely agree with everything that has been said. Yes, connections help. Yes, people like to stay at the same institution. And yes, top medical schools have very good students.

But I can only look at the data and draw conclusions. I look at the matchlists and see that if you want to end up at a top academic institution, like Harvard, Hopkins, UCSf, etc, you'd better go to Harvard, Hopkins, or UCSF.

Or alternatively, you can go to some other school and work your ass off, and I mean really really work it and come out at the top of your class or do whatever really good med students do and then you'll have a pretty good shot because it's not impossible. If you're average, forget it.

How is this argument for soundness ?

 

[Hednej]

i dont know about harvard, but based on my interviews and nabbing a copy of student handbooks with class rosters inside, columbia and penn both only have about 10-15 students of their own in a given year. That said, add up 10 students from every one of the top schools in the nation and you have a sizeable class. But there are still like 20-30 students in a given year from undergrads that aren't self congratulatory.

Yeah but did you notice how Columbia has 30 kids from Yale and 40 from Harvard? If you add Hopkins and Stanford you pretty much got 90% of the class right there (undergrad)

 

[moomix906]

actually, to be very accurate, for the class of 2007, P & S had 12 Yale undergrads and 14 Harvard undergrads( I don't feel like counting through the rest of the classes)...honestly man, hardwork is what makes the cut, not prestige

 

[Hednej]

actually, to be very accurate, for the class of 2007, P & S had 12 Yale undergrads and 14 Harvard undergrads( I don't feel like counting through the rest of the classes)...honestly man, hardwork is what makes the cut, not prestige

You're right about Yale, but I got 32 for Harvard counting MD/PhDs as well. Right out of the little book,.

 

[dilated]

But I can only look at the data and draw conclusions. I look at the matchlists and see that if you want to end up at a top academic institution, like Harvard, Hopkins, UCSf, etc, you'd better go to Harvard, Hopkins, or UCSF.

It depends on the field and the program. For an extreme example, look at radiation oncology - Harvard probably matched more people into it than 20 or 30 low-ranked US allo schools in the US combined. It does matter, in subtle ways (LORs from bigger names in the field) to more obvious ways (guaranteed research stipends for MS1 summer/a year off, having a Doris Duke there, etc). If you're dead set on getting into the very best residency you should go to the highest ranked school. If you just want to get into the field you want you can go anywhere; training is important but if you're that good you'll make your mark if you go to MGH or some IMG-filled nightmare.

 

[Hednej]

It depends on the field and the program. For an extreme example, look at radiation oncology - Harvard probably matched more people into it than 20 or 30 low-ranked US allo schools in the US combined. It does matter, in subtle ways (LORs from bigger names in the field) to more obvious ways (guaranteed research stipends for MS1 summer/a year off, having a Doris Duke there, etc). If you're dead set on getting into the very best residency you should go to the highest ranked school. If you just want to get into the field you want you can go anywhere; training is important but if you're that good you'll make your mark if you go to MGH or some IMG-filled nightmare.

Absolutely agree with everything you said.
Now Doris Duke, I was looking at the list of the students and a disproportionate number of them were from the home institution. Do they give their own students an advantage?

 

[moomix906]

hmmm...i dont know how you got that. I counted 3 Harvard Md/Phd total for 4 years.

Anyways, before we get totally off topic and argue this , my point is the kids who went to elite colleges were probably top high school students, do well on MCAT, grades, etc, go to med schools, do well on USLME, so on and so forth. To realistically validate your argument you would have to lay out applicants at so-and-so less prestigious med school and compare them to applicants at the top schools. Their USLME scores would need to be roughly the same, they would need roughly the same grades, blah blah blah. Yeah, maybe if you go to a not prestigious medical school, only the top applicants will match into a top program, but prove that all those average applicants at the not famous medical school are on par, numerically, with HMS applicants, and I'll concede. You may be right - I wouldn't know..but I doubt it.

Also, you have to go a long ways down in prestige before you really get to a point where only the very tip top of the class is going to match anywhere prestigious. I don't doubt that having a famous name as your alma mater doesn't have some amount of pull in a residency directors head...but still, if someone was competing with the rest of say Duke's medical school, even if he/she was average there thats still a long way off from saying an average student at oh, (pick your own not prestigious place) is interchangeable. If you go to Harvard, UCSF, Hopkins, you will be working your ass off to be average (unless you're super duper or freakish) - so its not so different in concept from working your ass off at podunk to be #1 (assuming the end results of your resume through your efforts at either school are the same). I know there are a billion caveats to everything I just said but I think that just proves the point that prestige doesnt trump all

 

[Hednej]

hmmm...i dont know how you got that. I counted 3 Harvard Md/Phd total for 4 years.

Anyways, before we get totally off topic and argue this , my point is the kids who went to elite colleges were probably top high school students, do well on MCAT, grades, etc, go to med schools, do well on USLME, so on and so forth. To realistically validate your argument you would have to lay out applicants at so-and-so less prestigious med school and compare them to applicants at the top schools. Their USLME scores would need to be roughly the same, they would need roughly the same grades, blah blah blah. Yeah, maybe if you go to a not prestigious medical school, only the top applicants will match into a top program, but prove that all those average applicants at the not famous medical school are on par, numerically, with HMS applicants, and I'll concede. You may be right - I wouldn't know..but I doubt it.

Also, you have to go a long ways down in prestige before you really get to a point where only the very tip top of the class is going to match anywhere prestigious. I don't doubt that having a famous name as your alma mater doesn't have some amount of pull in a residency directors head...but still, if someone was competing with the rest of say Duke's medical school, even if he/she was average there thats still a long way off from saying an average student at oh, (pick your own not prestigious place) is interchangeable. If you go to Harvard, UCSF, Hopkins, you will be working your ass off to be average (unless you're super duper or freakish) - so its not so different in concept from working your ass off at podunk to be #1 (assuming the end results of your resume through your efforts at either school are the same). I know there are a billion caveats to everything I just said but I think that just proves the point that prestige doesnt trump all

Yeah never mind the columbia kids, I really dont give a crap anymore.

But I never said reputation trumps all. How the heck do I know, I haven't even started med school yet. But I think it dose play a role and it would be naive to deny it. How much of a role does it play? It's hard to prove and will depend, but I like to think that it plays a pretty big role based on my previous experiences and from what I've seen from the matchlists. This is just my world view and makes dealing with life easier for me. Everyone's entitled to their own, I'm not here to impose mine on anybody, I'm just here to express it and I am aware that I might be 100% wrong.
We should continue this discussion tomorrow, bedtime now

 

[dilated]

Now Doris Duke, I was looking at the list of the students and a disproportionate number of them were from the home institution. Do they give their own students an advantage?

Yeah, that's why I picked the Doris Duke as an example. Supposedly the foundation is encouraging schools to be less hostile to outside applications but it's still pretty obvious the home students get first dibs on almost all of the slots. And of course they're mostly at the top schools.

 

[yalla22]

What is Doris Duke?

 

[Hednej]

What is Doris Duke?

http://www.ddcf.org/page.asp?pageId=292

 

[moomix906]

maybe we should postpone this debate 4 years...

how much of a prestige factor are you assigning say, Pitt or Brown? Cause I doubt I'm getting off any waitlists so 4 years from now I will sadly confirm your theories from either institution or else...I'll match well?

wow i need sleep

 

[Hednej]

maybe we should postpone this debate 4 years...

how much of a prestige factor are you assigning say, Pitt or Brown? Cause I doubt I'm getting off any waitlists so 4 years from now I will sadly confirm your theories from either institution or else...I'll match well?

wow i need sleep

Lol, yeah we'll know for sure in 4 years. I think Pitt and Brown are both very reputable, Pitt maybe more. And they both make very good matches at prime academic institutions every year. But, these are the MD/PhD kids, the kids who were in the top of their class and got a 260, the ones who took a year or two to do research and got published 3 times, etc... I really doubt anybody from these schools who's not from the top top quartile can match into Hopkins even if they wanted to.

 

[pillowhead]

I definitely agree with everything that has been said. Yes, connections help. Yes, people like to stay at the same institution. And yes, top medical schools have very good students.

But I can only look at the data and draw conclusions. I look at the matchlists and see that if you want to end up at a top academic institution, like Harvard, Hopkins, UCSf, etc, you'd better go to Harvard, Hopkins, or UCSF.

Or alternatively, you can go to some other school and work your ass off, and I mean really really work it and come out at the top of your class or do whatever really good med students do and then you'll have a pretty good shot because it's not impossible. If you're average, forget it.

How is this argument for soundness ?

The soundness is poor. It seems like you think you can go to a top tier school and work moderately hard and be a shoe-in for a a top tier resdidency.

You then say that you could go to a mid tier school and "work you ass off and I mean really really work it" and then possibly get a top tier residency.

Anyone getting a top tier residency is working their ass off regardless of what school they're from. Period. There is no way in hell you can go to a top tier medical school, get mediocore grades and board scores and get into a top tier residency just because you went to a top tier school.

You say that if you go to a mid tier school and "are average, forget it." If you go to top tier school and are truly average (like a step 1 score of 215), you can also forget about top tier residency programs.

Finally, you really cannot underestimate where people are in their lives by the end of the 4th year of medical school compared to when they started. Probably 20% of my class was married when we started, now it's 50%. All of one student had children when we started, now at least 10-15 do. Almost every single person who is married (HALF the class, that's FIFTY percent most of whom did not even APPLY to places like UCSF, Brigham, Mass Gen, and Hopkins because they're all at least 1000 miles from here) was limited geographically by their families either because of couple's matching or non-medical spouse's job or needing to be near family for child care. There are plenty of people who could have gotten into the highest tier programs who didn't even apply (myself included considering Mass Gen and Johns Hopkins didn't even fill for the specialy I applied to and my combined step 1 and 2 scores are well over 500). Priorities change--my husband couldn't move. All the people in my class going to Hopkins (2 people couples matched here), Mass Gen (2 people couples matched here), Brigham, or UCSF either couples matched there or they're single. (My school is about top 20 and off the top of my head I can name at least 12 people who matched at one of these places. So I'd be really surprised if Vanderbilt only matched 2 or 3 people in top tier residencies).

Finally, don't assume that you even know how to interpret match lists as a premed or even M1 or M2 student. Believe it or not, the top tier medical schools are not necessarily top tier for every single residency program that exists. The top programs for some specialties (neurosurgery and ophtho come to mind) are probably programs you've never even heard of. And for specialties like family practice, unopposed community programs are generally considered stronger than university-based programs.

 

[yellowcat322]

Why is the assumption always lower boards + higher school vs higher boards + lower school; I really don't think that the two are connected. I think that how you do on boards is mainly determined by how much effort you put into studying for the test so you can do equally poorly or equally well on your boards at either school. I also don't necessarily think that going to a mid-tier vs. top-tier school will somehow affect your rank in class; people adjust to the environment they're in - if it's a tougher curriculum you push yourself harder to get the same grades. So pretty much the only factor that would be different for you is the school's prestige. I know on SDN it's a popular opinion that rank doesn't matter. And I used to think the same thing, until a bunch of residency directors started coming in to talk to us about their specialties and the match process and quite a few of them dropped the hint that they're much more inclined to take students from a better school - ESPECIALLY from a better school in the area of the residency. So basically you can't really say that it doesn't matter at all. It's my opinion that no matter where you are you'll perform as well as you could - in both your classes and the boards - so the argument of having to work hard or less hard in a better or worse school is invalid. My personal opinion is if you're going for a competitive field go to the best school that takes you - unless there's a big money or location difference and it's a huge issue to you.

 

[postbacker]

I know on SDN it's a popular opinion that rank doesn't matter. And I used to think the same thing, until a bunch of residency directors started coming in to talk to us about their specialties and the match process and quite a few of them dropped the hint that they're much more inclined to take students from a better school - ESPECIALLY from a better school in the area of the residency. So basically you can't really say that it doesn't matter at all.

I have close personal friends who have placed in to the most competitive specialties - the very residencies SDNers masturbate over - after attending med schools (US Allo) that don't even register any kind of consideration on SDN, and don't register in the USNews rankings (however deep into the pool of schools US News goes - seems like it is 60 or so - these schools are not mentioned).

Specialties include: Neurosurgery, Plastic Surg, Radiology, Cardiology, Ortho, Neonatology, Transplant Surgeon, Optho, and Derm. They are all highly successful docs, and they all make lots of money - LOTS (if that matters...).

So for my friends, rank/prestige of their medical school DID NOT MATTER AT ALL, and they did residencies at some of the top programs in their chosen fields. Believe what you want...of course residency directors are going to say that...but there is a whole 'nother reality out there, but whatever you need to believe to get you through this process (and to justify the extra debt you incurred to obtain the prestige), more power to you...

 

[Uvault05]

I have close personal friends who have placed in to the most competitive specialties - the very residencies SDNers masturbate over - after attending med schools (US Allo) that don't even register any kind of consideration on SDN, and don't register in the USNews rankings (however deep into the pool of schools US News goes - seems like it is 60 or so - these schools are not mentioned).

Your reply doesn't disprove the fact that med school rank affects residency placements. I don't think that the above poster meant that rank/prestige is a huge factor, just that it likely matters. Everyone knows that students from ANY med school can match in just about ANY program, so anecdotal evidence is pretty useless here. What we do know is that match lists tend to be stronger at higher-ranked schools, although this is not necessarily due to prestige.

This is a pretty difficult concept to actually measure, so I would guess that talking to actual residency directors is the best way to find out.

 

[postbacker]

Everyone knows that students from ANY med school can match in just about ANY program, so anecdotal evidence is pretty useless here.

Clearly NOT everyone KNOWS this, especially on SDN.

And I clearly have a completely different approach to logic and analysis of facts/opinions/anecdotes than you since you believe anecdotal evidence is "pretty useless." Friend, there is very little in the way of FACTS on this forum...it is ALL anecdote or opinion (some well supported opinions, but lots of unsupported opinions) on these boards...opinions and anecdotes, that's it. Not sure why you would even bother wading through these threads if you think it is useless...

Whatever...

 

[soeagerun2or]

I have close personal friends who have placed in to the most competitive specialties - Specialties include: Neurosurgery, Plastic Surg, Radiology, Cardiology, Ortho, Neonatology, Transplant Surgeon, Optho, and Derm. They are all highly successful docs, and they all make lots of money - LOTS (if that matters...).

What are the respective programs for those who matched into these specialties?

 

[dilated]

So for my friends, rank/prestige of their medical school DID NOT MATTER AT ALL, and they did residencies at some of the top programs in their chosen fields. Believe what you want...of course residency directors are going to say that...but there is a whole 'nother reality out there, but whatever you need to believe to get you through this process (and to justify the extra debt you incurred to obtain the prestige), more power to you...

To clarify, what you're saying is that the best way to determine whether school rank matters is not to listen to the people that decide who gets to match at the elite programs but rather to listen to some guy who has "some friends" who matched at top programs in elite specialties from a crappy school? Despite the fact that you can simply look at match lists for these programs and see that almost all of the people who match there are coming from top schools?

Alrighty then.

 

[Old ortho]

Seems like most med schools adcomm put a lot more emphasis in the applicant's quality (MCAT, GPA, extracurricular activities, LOR, essay and interview) than what undergrad school the applicant comes from - possibly with the exception for a few elite schools like Harvard and Johns Hopkins. Is that the same case when you apply for a residency when you graduate from med school?

As a California pre-med, I have been put on waitlists by my state school and a couple OOS mid tier schools . Fortunately, I have been accepted by a so called safety school (NYMC), which is unranked by U. S. News. I would like to come back to California to enter a good residency program possibly in internal medicine. How important is it when you apply for residency whether you come from a higher ranked school (e.g. Mount Sinai, UC-San Diego) or from an unranked school (e.g. NYMC, Drexel)? This question does not include the few elite schools like Harvard and Johns Hopkins since they may be at a class by themselves.

 

[postbacker]

To clarify, what you're saying is that the best way to determine whether school rank matters is not to listen to the people that decide who gets to match at the elite programs but rather to listen to some guy who has "some friends" who matched at top programs in elite specialties from a crappy school? Despite the fact that you can simply look at match lists for these programs and see that almost all of the people who match there are coming from top schools?

Alrighty then.

No, I did not say that or anything of the sort. I was simply offering a counter viewpoint to some poster who insisted that rankings and prestige of the med school mattered for selective residency placement (the poster said that "you cannot say that rankings don't matter at all" and my anecdote disproves her statement).

Did you even read the quote box you selected? I clearly said that for my friends, it (prestige of med school / rank) did not matter at all - how could it? - their med schools are unranked, nowhere to be found in USNews or on SDN.

By the way, bub - pretty obnoxious for you to equate "unranked" with "crappy."

Alrighty then!

 

[moomix906]

but yellowcat wasn't arguing that you had to have come from a prestigious med school to land a top residency - just that in general, coming from a prestigious med school helped that school's average applicants. You can't disprove yellowcat by saying that you know people who went to unranked med schools who got MGH residencies because thats not what yellowcat is saying. Just because you know some people for whom rankings didn't matter doesn't prove that rankings dont matter for anyone at all. The debate is on the question of, in general (not in every case), will the average student at a top school get preference over top students from a not prestigious medical school, assuming all else is equal?

 

[postbacker]

The debate is on the question of, in general (not in every case), will the average student at a top school get preference over top students from a not prestigious medical school, assuming all else is equal?

If that is the "debate," then the answer to the question is nobody knows and nobody can tell you that they know.

But at least in my anecdote, top students at an unranked school scored top flight residencies at coveted programs - did they beat out "average students at top schools?" Probably, and my guess is that they beat out more than a few "top" students from "top" medical schools, too.

Way too much concern over rankings here. My point is that you can place in any competitive residency by attending any medical school in the country IF you perform to the necessary standards of the residency program. Don't delude yourself into thinking that a "top" medical school can help an average student overcome mediocre performance when it comes to selective residencies.

 

[ZachariasMouse]

You guys seem to miss the point about going to a top-tier school -- you should want to go to one because the medical education is better. The best residencies (one would hope) would go to the best prepared candidates.

I chose to take a year off to get into a top-tier school because I wanted to be in an environment where people were as motivated as myself. A year in the stultifying mire of my post-bac program made me realize that a large component of one's education is always going to be your fellow students.

 

[HreComesTheSun]

You guys seem to miss the point about going to a top-tier school -- you should want to go to one because the medical education is better. The best residencies (one would hope) would go to the best prepared candidates.

I chose to take a year off to get into a top-tier school because I wanted to be in an environment where people were as motivated as myself. A year in the stultifying mire of my post-bac program made me realize that a large component of one's education is always going to be your fellow students.

the logic is a bit off here:

1) "top-tier" doesn't always equate with better medical education (ie ranking schools by research funding does not mean the school gives better med education)

2)you shouldn't assume that students in "mid" or "low-tiered" schools aren't going to be just as motivated. there are plenty of top students who give up higher ranked schools due to finances, family, being smart enough to look past rankings, etc.

i don't think the others in this thread are missing the point at all...they are debating whether or not these rankings matter to residency programs, not to themselves

 

[crimsonkid85]

it's not about the PRESTIGE of a medical school. Getting into the most competitive residencies is always a function of WHO you know + a little bit of WHAT you know. Start networking, people...

 

[soeagerun2or]

it's not about the PRESTIGE of a medical school. Getting into the most competitive residencies is always a function of WHO you know + a little bit of WHAT you know. Start networking, people...

Practical advice is not encouraged in this theoretical debate about whether an unranked or prestigious school better positions one for Step I success and thus a residency of choice.

 

[njbmd]

Medical school versus medical school is a pre-med issue and this thread is being moved to Pre-allopathic. Anyone can follow this thread and comment over there.

 

[trudat]

btw....what are we saying as top medical schools? top 20? top 15?