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Top Ten

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - DO' started by RollTide, Nov 4, 1999.

  1. RollTide

    RollTide Senior Member
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    Top 10 reasons why I favor osteopathic medicine

    10. The majority of osteopathic medical schools tend to have more graduates electing to practice in underserved areas of the country. I am interested in returning to my current state of residence and practicing in a rural community and would like to attend a medical school that values my future goals.

    9. Osteopathic medical schools emphasize primary care in both their curriculums and philosophy. This is evident when looking at the number of graduates who enter primary care vs. their allopathic counterparts.

    8. Andrew Taylor Still ?enough said.

    7. The facilities, faculty, and students were more impressive at the osteopathic schools I visited than at my state schools (This is my opinion of these schools and not meant to be a generalization of all osteopathic or allopathic medical schools).

    6. I have had the opportunity to witness osteopathic manipulation and I am extremely impressed with both the effectiveness of this treatment modality and with the immediate gratification that comes with using your hands to relieve the pain of a fellow human being ( for those of you who are not yet sold on the benefits of OMM, check out this week's issue of The New England Journal of Medicine).

    5. The osteopathic medical schools I looked into provided a plethora of fist year patient contact, my state schools did not (this is unique to my own situation and not meant to be generalized to all schools). I don't know about the rest of you but I personally enjoy the person-to-person contact much more than listening to the lectures.

    4. The osteopathic physicians I have worked with and shadowed always check over the entire patient regardless of complaint or symptoms. Yes, I believe in all that holistic bullcrap! This includes the mental status of the patient to which I believe holds significant weight when evaluating the individual needs of a patient. All to often when working with allopathic physicians I have seen a single problem or symptom be addressed and the rest ignored or blown off because of time restraints. I do however realize that some of this is due to the for-profit mentality of the bureaucrats that run our healthcare system.

    3. As a future primary care physician it would be nice to step into the shoes of a specialist every now and then. From my personal experience osteopathic physicians get the chance to use OMM to treat patients that have been referred to them by allopaths. This is true at least in my state where there are only a few physicians trained in OMM and plenty of patients requesting it.

    2. Dr. Jack Kevorkian holds a M.D. degree

    1. I could take a $150,000 vacation to the Caribbean and pick up a M.D. degree on the way home if I really believed in prestige.

     
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  3. RDO

    RDO Member
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    Great, Great Post! I agree with you completely and I haven't even seen OMM/OMT in action yet.

    -RDO
     
  4. Ponyboy

    Ponyboy Senior Member
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    RollTide,
    As an allopathic student, I have found your last two points rather offensive. If you favor osteopathic medicine, good for you. However, there is no need to disparage MD's and MD students. In respsonse to your offensive top ten list, I have formulated my own top ten list as to why I favor allopathic medicine.

    10. I realized that with my MD degree, I can practice anywhere I wish, including underserved areas in the country as well as abroad, in countries that either do not allow DO's to practice or severely limit their practice rights.

    9. Allopathic schools promote both primary care as well as specialty areas and research because they realize that both "areas" of medicine are needed.

    8. Osler, David Ho, Albert Schweitzer, Micheal Crichton, Che Gueverra, Harold Varmus, the founders of Medicins du Monde...enough said.

    7. The research and facilities vary from place to place but on the whole, allopathic schools have more facilities, more faculty, and more research money.

    6. I have also seen OMM in practice (with little benefit to the patient) and I have seen that it is not the cure-all that many say it to be. If you read the NEJM article, there was no difference between the outcomes of the two groups--both had the same end result.

    5. There are plenty of schools that offer first year contact with patients. This is candy floss and is offered to attract students to the schools. Any real clinical work and skills are only seen in the third year.

    4. No school, allopathic or osteopathic, can instill a holistic approach in its graduates. The approach of a doctor is dependent upon the individual doctor themselves. (Soc Sci Med 1987;25(10):1111-20)

    3. It would be incredibly foolish to assert that you want to be a primary care physician before you enter into medical school. Approximately 25% of med school graduates are still interested in the specialty that they were interested in before they started school. That means that 75% of med school students have changed their minds about what specialty they wished to practice in. As for OMM, only about 6% of family practitioners use OMM for a 50% of their practice and nearly one third used OMM on less than 5% of their patients. This says nothing about other primary specialties such as pediatrics, internal medicine, psychiatry, and OB/GYN. (J Am Osteopath Assoc 1997 Feb;97(2):80-7)

    2. I was smart enough to realize that one person who commits a crime does not speak for the entire allopathic community. (Keep up the good scientific reasoning! Here's a little tip: if you ever become a doctor and you see a child who has a sore throat and eats ice cream, don't jump to the conclusion that ice cream causes sore throats.)

    1. If I ever decide that I do want to know OMM, I could just retake the MCAT, drop my scores by about 4 points in each category, fail a whole year of classes and then apply to DO schools.

    I have no problem with people who wish to enter osteopathic medical school and who wish to be DO's. I fully respect DO's and believe that they are my equivalent counterparts in medicine. However, when people begin to insult my own chosen profession, I have a problem. I made this list to show you what it feels like when someone disparages your school and branch of healthcare and I hope you understand that it is foolish for DO's and MD's to fight amongst themselves and insult one another.


    [This message has been edited by Ponyboy (edited 11-05-1999).]
     
  5. DocGibby

    DocGibby Senior Member
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    Whoa Whoa!!!!

    I can already see where this ones going. We'll be on 100 replies before you know it.

    Ponyboy,

    I was gonna comment on the cockiness of Roll Tides comments, but you beat me to the punch. The person makes the doctor (not the degree). Your gonna get DO's and MD's with horrible bedside manner. Others will be great. A good majority of DO's never utilize OMT (that should change). Some MD's might refer a patient to a DO that can offer it. We're alot more alike than people think. We should encourage harmony not cocky attitudes.

    I know your proud of your accomplishments, Rolltide, but no need to rip on the allopaths. I know your trying to rip into Rolltide, Ponyboy, but a few of those really hurt (I'm not even gonna qualify them with a response).

    ------------------
    DocGibby
    MSUCOM class of 2004
     
  6. Smile

    Smile Senior Member
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    the above top ten lists are absolutely ridiculous... both of them. i can't believe they are actually written by premed/med students. i mean, you guys are adults studying to work in a very important profession, one that commands great respect for life and other people. stop acting like little children! it is sad how both of you are so arrogant, ignorant, and immature, and apparently have nothing positive to add to the medical profession as a whole. if i knew who you guys were, i would never go to either of you as a patient, just based on your attitudes alone.
     
  7. Jim Henderson

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    Top reason I don't care.

    I can never tell if I'm working with a DO or MD and don't care. My allopathic residency chief last year was a DO and I didn't care.

    Knock it off already!

    ------------------
    Jim Henderson, MD of MedicalStudent.net
    http://www.medicalstudent.net
     
  8. drusso

    Physician Moderator Emeritus Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

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    What is the hidden nature of the nasty DO versus MD debate? It's even worse on www.review.com site! I once read a study on personality characteristics of premeds that found, compared to pre-law students or pre-PhD students, premeds were far more status conscious. Almost all premeds know that graduates from MD, DO, foreign, state-sponsored, and ivy schools all end up with an unlimited license to practice medicine! By the time medical students get to their third and fourth years they realize that the best students weren't necessarily the best at choosing one of five multiple choice answers.

    So what gives??

    [This message has been edited by drusso (edited 11-05-1999).]

    [This message has been edited by drusso (edited 11-05-1999).]
     
  9. RollTide

    RollTide Senior Member
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    Ponyboy,

    First off I would like to apologize for offending you. This was not the intention of my post believe it or not. Most of what I said is relevant to this message board excluding my final two comments which I take has lead to your outrage. The comment referring to M.D. degrees from the Caribbean was not intended to downplay or insult U.S. trained physicians holding a M.D. degree. It was meant as a response to foolish premeds that believe choosing a M.D. degree over a D.O. degree will bring some mysterious prestige. I was intending to point out that it depends on the school you are trained at and not on the letters after your name. Obviously I did a poor job of making my point.
    Second, the Dr. Kevorkian comment was meant as a joke. It was in very poor taste and I realize that. Sometimes we make mistakes and this was one of them. I enjoy the message boards here at studentdoctor.com and would hate to see them turn into argument boards like the ones at other sites so I hope you will except my apology.
    I do fill however that I should respond to your comments in your posts in order to clear up a few things:

    "10. I realized that with my MD degree, I can practice anywhere I wish, including underserved areas in the country as well as abroad, in countries that either do not allow DO's to practice or severely limit their practice rights."

    I think you missed my original point. Osteopathic colleges of medicine graduate more students that choose to practice in these areas. This originates from 1) the type of matriculate that chooses to enter osteopathic medicine 2) the acceptance of and encouragement given by both students and faculty at the colleges toward persons choosing to practice in these areas. These numbers are drastically different when comparing osteopathic schools to allopathic schools. So please do not argue the point but if you would like to offer other reasons for this substantial difference in paths I would love to hear them. As far as practicing in other countries I believe I mentioned that I plan on practicing in rural areas of the U.S. so your comment does not apply to me but thank you for the information.

    "9. Allopathic schools promote both primary care as well as specialty areas and research because they realize that both "areas" of medicine are needed."

    Some allopathic schools do, most do not?.again look at the numbers.

    "8. Osler, David Ho, Albert Schweitzer, Micheal Crichton, Che Gueverra, Harold Varmus, the founders of Medicins du Monde...enough said. "

    Another point missed. I titled the post "Top Ten Reasons I Favored" indicating my reasons. The history of osteopathic medicine and particularly that of Dr. Still was important in my decision to pursue osteopathic medicine

    "6. I have also seen OMM in practice (with little benefit to the patient) and I have seen that it is not the cure-all that many say it to be. If you read the NEJM article, there was no difference between the outcomes of the two groups--both had the same end result. "

    I don't know what type of patient your used to treating but in my neighborhood cost-effectiveness is extremely important in the outcome of the patient. There was a difference? cost. The patients treated with OMT required less PT and medications. When you have a patient who can not afford your $80 a month medications, little good is done by scribbling your signature on a pad.

    "4. No school, allopathic or osteopathic, can instill a holistic approach in its graduates. The approach of a doctor is dependent upon the individual doctor themselves."

    I must be ignorant because I do believe the attitudes of fellow students as well as faculty will have an impact on me.

    "3. It would be incredibly foolish to assert that you want to be a primary care physician before you enter into medical school. Approximately 25% of med school graduates are still interested in the specialty that they were interested in before they started school."

    You could be right I may change my mind, but this post was based on MY decision to pursue osteopathic medicine and emphasis on primary care is important to ME.

    Once again I apologize for offending you ponyboy.

     
  10. Ponyboy

    Ponyboy Senior Member
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    I, too, should apologize for my scathing remarks earlier. If you have seen my previous posts, you will find that I fully support osteopathic medicine and I have no problem with DO's. However, I am sick of hearing MD-bashing and that was the reason behind most of my post.
    As for some of my comments:
    10. When you start medical school, you'll realize that almost nobody talks about where they intend to practice and that there is no direct encouragement into any specialty (primary or otherwise). Options for every type of opportunity are presented but no one is encouraged into anything other than doing what you like. Besides, in terms of strict numbers of graduates that actually practice in underserved rural areas, the numbers are 18% for DO's and 11% for MD's. Thus, it is only a small minority of graduates who are actually going to practice in underserved areas ( Council on Graduate Medical Education. Physician distribution and health care challenges in rural and inner-city areas: 10th report. Washington, D.C.: Department of Health and Human Services, 1998:14.). My main point was that when you graduate, you are free to work anywhere you want. Your school (both faculty and students) will not strongly influence you to work in an underserved area. That will be up to you.

    9. I think that the numbers of allopathic schools readily promote both areas of medicine. If you look at US News' ranking of primary care schools, you will see that most of the allopathic schools have around 50% of their graduates going into primary care specialties while the other half go into other higher profile specialties and research. If anything, I think that this points to the fact that allopathic med schools do promote both primary and higher level specialties.

    4. After your first lecture on holism (if that is actually offered), ask yourself if you are now a holistic healer. Do the same thing after you talk to your classmates and your biochem profs. You'll find the answer to be "No." Despite what you believe, the holistic approach is dependent upon yourself, not those around you. See the reference I posted earlier.

    Again, when I posted my previous statement, I was posting in a semi-annoyed/very sarcastic mood. Do not take my list at face value. Look at my earlier posts and you'll see that I am all for DO's and osteopathic medicine. However, I do not appreciate MD bashing anymore than you would appreciate DO-bashing.

    Smile, please read my previous posts and see that I am not as ignorant and immature as you believe. If you actually believe that this is my true nature, you are mistaken. I do know quite a bit about DO's and I do not think that they're "MD rejects." However, I used that issue in response to Roll Tide's diminuation of MD's (by his referral to Carribean MD's).
     
  11. RDO

    RDO Member
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    What is with this thread? I've never seen anyone on this site with such short fuses. I've also never seen such apologies after ripping someone to shreads. I've read posts from all of you before and none of you exhibit these schizophrenic attitudes anywhere but here and on this topic. CHILL OUT!!! It's not even a novel debate.

    That said, I'd like to thank you all for debating so ferociously. You all are obviously well-informed and even if you're using your knowledge for evil, it's still informative. By the way, your posts (like mine) are long enough for me to think maybe you have a little too much time on your hands.

    -RDO
     
  12. Henry

    Henry Senior Member
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    This is very silly to keep going through this MD/DO fight. Wake up!! As we are near the turn of the century, we should learn the difference between 2 professions and improve both by working together.

    Don't fall into the premed trap by down grading MD or DO. I understand there are prejudice still exist out there, however, I believe if each and everyone of us want to make a different, the next generation will be a better world, at least it will benefit to our patients.

    I know I can't change anyone's point of view, but if you would like to continue this useless discussion, go to the PR site and fight your way through.

    ------------------
    NSU 2002
    ([email protected]@-)

     
  13. Deb

    Deb Senior Member
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    OK children...let's play nicely. I know you're all proud of finally "getting in",
    (and you should be) but I think RDO is right...you guys have way too much time on
    your hands!

    UHSCOM 2001
     
  14. Nanook

    Nanook Senior Member
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    I was actually quite impressed with the maturity of both of the "Top Ten" listers. The ability to admit you were wrong about something and apologize is perhaps one of the highest forms of compassion, one all prospective and current physicians should possess.

    You displayed much better form, I think, than many, many other pre-med forums about the 'net.

    Kudos to you, MD and DO both.
     

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