Totally confused

[ocean11]

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Hey all.... after posting in the DO forum + doing some research on my own, I found out that a DO education is superb and equivalent to an MD education. PLUS DO's can match through NMRP + AOA, while MD's can only match through NMPR, so it appears to me that DO's have a great advantage during matching to obtain competitive residencies (such as Derm or Optho). So why is it that pre-meds choose the MD route preferably?!?

PS: I am really curious and am not starting this thread to ignite a flame war, I just really honestly want to know!!

 

[efex101]

I did not apply DO because in many states patients have no clue about what DO is all about so to me this was not an option...(to have to explain myself ad nauseum about it) to be honest after busting my arse for this I did not want not *one* person asking me "are you a real doctor" ..heck I will get enough of the "are you a nurse? (due to my gender) that will get me going enough as is...he he.

 

[bmcgilligan]

Just last week I had to explain what a DO is to a veterinarian I used to work for. You would think that he would know. But no, he didn't. He was looking through his new insurance plan and was trying to pick a physician.

Not that this matters at all, but just an interesting story.

 

[Green912]

Yep, it's been about 3 weeks. 😴

 

[TruTrooper]

Hey all.... after posting in the DO forum + doing some research on my own, I found out that a DO education is superb and equivalent to an MD education. PLUS DO's can match through NMRP + AOA, while MD's can only match through NMPR, so it appears to me that DO's have a great advantage during matching to obtain competitive residencies (such as Derm or Optho). So why is it that pre-meds choose the MD route preferably?!?

PS: I am really curious and am not starting this thread to ignite a flame war, I just really honestly want to know!!

My question is that since the population is more familiar with MDS why do DOs go for the DO instead of the MD? Personally, I have seen absolutely no difference between the two besides title. Matter of fact, I have been very impressed by the DOs I have worked with thus far.

 

[DrThom]

I always heard that the DO degree is only recognized by this country. If you want to take your skills internationally, get an MD.

 

[ocean11]

That's true, many countries don't recognize the degree, in Ontario (Canada) ONLY in the last year are DO's permitted to apply for work, in PRIMARY care only. Other provinces don't recongnize the degree (which I personally thing is a shame)

 

[Hoya11]

The odds of specializing in an md program are much better if you are an MD.

Most DOs are primary care in this country too.

And the number of DO programs are far fewer than MD programs.

Getting DO is good if you want to be primary care or match into a non-competitive allopathic residency. I hear a popular route is DO to anesthesiology for example.

However, if you are looking to specialize in any way shape or form, MD is better if you can get in. More programs, more recognized, more priority to MDs vs. DOs.

 

[criminallyinane]

I didn't apply to DO schools because I wanted to train at a major academic medical center with major research opportunities and excellent training in subspecialty services. I find DO schools are generally more into family medicine and primary care than subspecialties, although that doesn't mean that they don't also provide very good training across the spectrum of medical specialties. I think it's just a different focus. I also don't really believe in OMM, so that part of the DO training would have seemed like a waste of time to me.

 

[Steve_muffinman]

DOs have a VERY hard time matching into a competitive specialty. That's the bottom line. As for EDU, it all depends on how hard you work.

 

[chameleonknight]

Conversely, if the MD and DO educations are basically the same, why go DO?

The fact is that originally DO was an "alternative" to traditional medical education that adapted to be basically the same. Since MDs run the vast majority of residency programs, it only makes sense to wanna go MD. Unless, you have a very strong interest in primary care; DO would probably be better for in that case, due to a strong emphasis in that training.

 

[zion]

"I'm not going the DO route since I'm not interested in being a chiropractor."

This is one of many responses I've heard regarding DO's. I think its quite myopic and ignorant, but this is the shi+ that you'll have to deal with. Also, in my experience as a pre-med advisor, many people who applied DO did so due to sub-par GPA's and/or MCAT's. I also think this is a stupid reason to go into this field, which I believe has merits that the traditional allopathic medical community has failed to recognize. I'm just stating reality here folks, which unfortunately is filled with ignorant people.

 

[bioteacher]

Some people are just sick of this question because it seems like it never dies. You will find thousands of threads on this topic. I feel that you have a legitimate reason to ask this question, just like I needed information a year ago.

I have done a lot of research on this topic because I have had to. Traditionally most people have applied to DO schools as a back-up or because they didn't get into an MD school the previous year. Many DOs on SDN attest that this is changing and people with great credentials are not even applying through AMCAS. I have the utmost respect for all doctors, MD and DO. My primary care doctor is a DO at the moment. I may want to specialize, which I also have been told may make it harder to do as a DO. And a major fault of me is that I care what people think. I don't want to explain my credentials to people and don't want other doctors/patients to think that I wasn't intelligent or motivated enough to get into allopathic schools. I also do not think I will ever use OMM (though I haven't been trained in it, so what can I say). My DO doctor says that very few DO's actually use it which seems to devalue its importance in education in my opinion. You should be a DO because you believe that the education will be better and want to recruit the types of patients that may tend to veer towards osteopathic physicians as an "alternative" to an MD. If you want to be a doctor, it shouldn't matter. As an MD someday, I will always consider DO's as equal (unless they are my chief resident in that case they are superior!). I have heard that the osteopathic schools teach everything an allopathic school does, plus OMM. Osteopathy is described as holistic, though I feel any student can learn to be the same regardless of their education. DO students often do just as well on boards as allopathic students. Truly, I feel that it is the residency that trains the doctor and that is where you will see the differences in allopathic and osteopathic medicine.

In summary, if you are going into primary care (family practice, internal medicine, ob/gyn, peds), could give a sh@+ what others think and want to learn OMM, then by all means be a DO without any reservations. Most patients could care less and will want to see you based on the recommendations of their neighbors, friends etc.

 

[Portier]

I didn't apply to DO schools because I wanted to train at a major academic medical center with major research opportunities and excellent training in subspecialty services. I find DO schools are generally more into family medicine and primary care than subspecialties, although that doesn't mean that they don't also provide very good training across the spectrum of medical specialties. I think it's just a different focus. I also don't really believe in OMM, so that part of the DO training would have seemed like a waste of time to me.

I agree with most of the comments, but I want to clarify one thing about the "belief in OMM."

Many "histrionic defenders of the faith" give the profession a bad name. For instance, in a modern evidence based medical profession, no one seriously believes that you can cure neoplastic disease with manipulation.

(There's a former Chiorpractor in our class that said Chiropractic can cure everything but rigor mortis.....HA!)

I'd like more people to see the OMM part of DO school as training along the lines of Physical Therapy, or Athletic Training. It's more than that, but to say that you "don't believe" in OMM is similar to saying, "I don't write consults to Physical/Occupational Therapy because it won't help." or "I don't send patients to the Lab, because I don't believce in Germ Theory."

OMM isn't the magical cure all that some bill it as, but it is a valuable adjunct, as many modalities that aren't taught in every medical school. (The reason I didn't say Allopathic/Ostoepathic is because no all DO schools teach OMM the same way or very well.)

I hope that wasn't too "flame-ish."

 

[velo]

Hey all.... after posting in the DO forum + doing some research on my own, I found out that a DO education is superb and equivalent to an MD education. PLUS DO's can match through NMRP + AOA, while MD's can only match through NMPR, so it appears to me that DO's have a great advantage during matching to obtain competitive residencies (such as Derm or Optho). So why is it that pre-meds choose the MD route preferably?!?

PS: I am really curious and am not starting this thread to ignite a flame war, I just really honestly want to know!!

DOs are at a huge disadvantage for the competitive residencies you mentioned. Its possible for a DO to match into a competitive program (One of our top trauma surgeons is a DO) that is the exception and not the rule. If you want to go into primary care or a less competative IM program there's really no difference between MD and DO education (although from what I've seen DO school tends to be expensive as hell! especially for people who will almost all go into primary care). But if you want to do a specialty you are far better served by the MD

 

[Portier]

Some people are just sick of this question because it seems like it never dies. You will find thousands of threads on this topic. I feel that you have a legitimate reason to ask this question, just like I needed information a year ago.

I have done a lot of research on this topic because I have had to. Traditionally most people have applied to DO schools as a back-up or because they didn't get into an MD school the previous year. Many DOs on SDN attest that this is changing and people with great credentials are not even applying through AMCAS. I have the utmost respect for all doctors, MD and DO. My primary care doctor is a DO at the moment. I may want to specialize, which I also have been told may make it harder to do as a DO. And a major fault of me is that I care what people think. I don't want to explain my credentials to people and don't want other doctors/patients to think that I wasn't intelligent or motivated enough to get into allopathic schools. I also do not think I will ever use OMM (though I haven't been trained in it, so what can I say). My DO doctor says that very few DO's actually use it which seems to devalue its importance in education in my opinion. You should be a DO because you believe that the education will be better and want to recruit the types of patients that may tend to veer towards osteopathic physicians as an "alternative" to an MD. If you want to be a doctor, it shouldn't matter. As an MD someday, I will always consider DO's as equal (unless they are my chief resident in that case they are superior!). I have heard that the osteopathic schools teach everything an allopathic school does, plus OMM. Osteopathy is described as holistic, though I feel any student can learn to be the same regardless of their education. DO students often do just as well on boards as allopathic students. Truly, I feel that it is the residency that trains the doctor and that is where you will see the differences in allopathic and osteopathic medicine.

In summary, if you are going into primary care (family practice, internal medicine, ob/gyn, peds), could give a sh@+ what others think and want to learn OMM, then by all means be a DO without any reservations. Most patients could care less and will want to see you based on the recommendations of their neighbors, friends etc.

One more reply...and this one psychological.

There are two reasons that people want to become doctors:
1) To help patients/people
2) To attain prestige and recognition

Some might even say 1) is just another path to 2) for some people.

The myriad of people that go into healthcare all have their own reasons, but those two sum up many/most of them.

As far as achieving 1), MD/DO are the same thing. DO comes with additional training (some would say propaganda), and the additional burden of being an unknown minority in the medical world.

Now, #2 is more difficult. #2 seperates out those who want only to be helpers (I'd go to a medical school in Minsk as long as I got to be a doctor) and those who have a larger % of prestige-seeking in their reasons for becomming a doctor. Don't get me wrong, wanting to have people know you, and recognize what you do is a normal human emotion.

However, when I was given a choice between competing for a coveted MD school spot, or getting to be a physician who is less known, but still gets to help....I chose DO. That's only me, though. I tend to avoid competition that I don't see as making much of a difference...or is personally motivated (like footballs..ha) It was a bit less stressful to apply to DO school, and the interviews were more forthcomming and fun. After my initial DO experience, I was hooked.

And you're right, DO is a great backup plan for grades/MCAT scores that don't make MD standards. However, I predict that this will change in the next 10 years. The pervasive nature of information technology and the growing pool of knowledge available to average people will lead more to applyto DO school. (for example, we ended up having too many students this year because everyone accepted admission and meant it.)

Soon, there'll be the same requirements to get into DO school as there are to get into MD school.

I hope that I made sense, and didn't make too many people mad.

 

[velo]

One more reply...and this one psychological.

There are two reasons that people want to become doctors:
1) To help patients/people
2) To attain prestige and recognition

interesting post, but its all based on this fallacy that these are the two reasons to go into medicine. I think for a lot of people medicine is attractive because it is interesting and intellectually challenging. And lets face it: most DOs are going to go into primary care, and many people aren't going to find that as intellectually stimulating as being a specialist at a large academic center; on the cutting edge of treatments and technology, seeing interesting cases everyday, being involved in research both clinical and basic science to drive the field forward. Its much harder to get there with a DO...

 

[lfesiam]

Idealistic World: MD = DO
Realistc World: MD > DO

My World: MDOODOMMMDODOMDODOMDODODDMDMDODODMODMDODMODMDOMDOMDOMDOMDOMDOMDODODMDOMDODMODMDOMDOMDOMDOMDOMDODMODMDMODMDOMDODODMDOMD

these kind of threads will get no where

 

[tkim]

That's true, many countries don't recognize the degree, in Ontario (Canada) ONLY in the last year are DO's permitted to apply for work, in PRIMARY care only. Other provinces don't recongnize the degree (which I personally thing is a shame)

I have a feeling that that info is outdated. Here's the most recent info from the AOA. I do recall something about another province being opened up to DO's, but I can't be sure.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=1230779&postcount=2

 

[tupac_don]

That's true, many countries don't recognize the degree, in Ontario (Canada) ONLY in the last year are DO's permitted to apply for work, in PRIMARY care only. Other provinces don't recongnize the degree (which I personally thing is a shame)

Even MD's are pretty much primary care only. If you wanna go for a specialty in Canada as a US grad or foreign grad, think spending 4-5 years in the province of Northwest Territories, or North Bay or Sturgeon ontario.

 

[Portier]

I have a feeling that that info is outdated. Here's the most recent info from the AOA. I do recall something about another province being opened up to DO's, but I can't be sure.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=1230779&postcount=2

Last I heard, international practice privileges were denied DO's because there are non-physician DO's that only practice manipulation in foreign countries. The idea that an "Osteopath" can prescribe/admit is incredible to many foreign boards of medicine.

That's why the AOA wants you to say you're an "Osteopathic Physician." Because, that clears it all up across the pond!.....

 

[Portier]

interesting post, but its all based on this fallacy that these are the two reasons to go into medicine. I think for a lot of people medicine is attractive because it is interesting and intellectually challenging. And lets face it: most DOs are going to go into primary care, and many people aren't going to find that as intellectually stimulating as being a specialist at a large academic center; on the cutting edge of treatments and technology, seeing interesting cases everyday, being involved in research both clinical and basic science to drive the field forward. Its much harder to get there with a DO...

I like you're third option...and my post is a gross oversimplification. However, many generalizations are only so-so....I'll add your reasoing above as 3....but I believe it falls under 2 to some degree.

Which brings up and interesting question that keeps coming up in my MPH/MHA classes: Why do so many physicians specialize and subspecialize into non-primary care areas when where they are needed is at the front lines?

The answer several textbooks espouse are
1) Intellectual stimulation from being in a mentally demanding field.
2) Dollars....you make more money just operating on left pinky fingers (digiti minime) than getting partially reimbursed to see Medicare patients for arthritis.
3) Presitge...specialists are mostly in fields where much training is required and are seen as elite among medical professionals.
4) Modality...Primary care fields require longitudinal care wherein many comorbidities are considered at once. Primary care students spend much time in ambulatory care clinics learning about many different diseases. Specialists spend time in definitive care facilities beign exposed to state of the art technology.
5) More predictable work hours for specialists was also intoned, but I tend to doubt that based on which specialty you're in.

They explained the physician shortage by saying there are enough, but they are geographically (all in cities) and specialty (40% primary, 60% specialist) maldistributed.

Does anyone know what the last year graduate residency distribution was?

 

[velo]

Which brings up and interesting question that keeps coming up in my MPH/MHA classes: Why do so many physicians specialize and subspecialize into non-primary care areas when where they are needed is at the front lines?

yeah your textbooks probably get it right more or less. Its not a hard question, primary care is boring and it doesn't pay as well.

 

[maizevraptorm]

Hey all.... after posting in the DO forum + doing some research on my own, I found out that a DO education is superb and equivalent to an MD education. PLUS DO's can match through NMRP + AOA, while MD's can only match through NMPR, so it appears to me that DO's have a great advantage during matching to obtain competitive residencies (such as Derm or Optho). So why is it that pre-meds choose the MD route preferably?!?

PS: I am really curious and am not starting this thread to ignite a flame war, I just really honestly want to know!!

Look..

Do's can do everything MD's can do. The only thing that matters in getting a residency is how hard you work. The number of DO specialty residences is proportional to the number of DO students.

Bottom line: do what you want. There really is no difference.

 

[maizevraptorm]

I like you're third option...and my post is a gross oversimplification. However, many generalizations are only so-so....I'll add your reasoing above as 3....but I believe it falls under 2 to some degree.

Which brings up and interesting question that keeps coming up in my MPH/MHA classes: Why do so many physicians specialize and subspecialize into non-primary care areas when where they are needed is at the front lines?

The answer several textbooks espouse are
1) Intellectual stimulation from being in a mentally demanding field.
2) Dollars....you make more money just operating on left pinky fingers (digiti minime) than getting partially reimbursed to see Medicare patients for arthritis.
3) Presitge...specialists are mostly in fields where much training is required and are seen as elite among medical professionals.
4) Modality...Primary care fields require longitudinal care wherein many comorbidities are considered at once. Primary care students spend much time in ambulatory care clinics learning about many different diseases. Specialists spend time in definitive care facilities beign exposed to state of the art technology.
5) More predictable work hours for specialists was also intoned, but I tend to doubt that based on which specialty you're in.

They explained the physician shortage by saying there are enough, but they are geographically (all in cities) and specialty (40% primary, 60% specialist) maldistributed.

Does anyone know what the last year graduate residency distribution was?

Well said!

 

[Portier]

yeah your textbooks probably get it right more or less. Its not a hard question, primary care is boring and it doesn't pay as well.

I'll politely take issue with you here.

Granted I'm only a 2nd year (start rotations in Sept...OB/GYN first), but I think that primary care offers a greater diversity. You never know what will show up.

I talked to some Navy FP Bubbas (don't ask me why we call them that, but everyone's a bubba in the Navy...Surgery Bubbas, Radiology Bubbas, etc) and thay said at first they needed to turf a lot, but as they learned more and gained more experience they were able to retain and treat more complicated patients.

I'm actually interested in doing FP, seeing polypharmacy IM style patients, getting my prenatal care on, some OB/GYN, pediatrics, maybe some OMM rehab stuff, runny noses, broken bones, STD's, arthritis, psychiatric problems, etc.

I guess it's all in how you look at it. When I thnk about (you, I touch myself) specialties besides General Surgery and Peds...I think drudgery. Just doing the same thing day in day out....

anyway...