Tricky question... surgical experience on World Vets trip on VMCAS

[equitate]

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I went on a trip with World Vets to Romania for a small animal spay/neuter project in May (it was great overall and awesome hands-on experience!). Here's the tricky question: in addition to observing and even assisting in surgeries, I actually got to perform my own dog neuter (under close supervision and with instruction from a vet, of course - but I did the actual cutting and suturing and it was AWESOME!). I feel like maybe I shouldn't mention this because it wouldn't be legal in the States. On the other hand, it was surgical experience (and I loved/made it through my first surgery without hitting the floor like a ton of bricks! Woo!). Thoughts?

As of right now, my "Description of Duties" looks like this (feel free to suggest improvements if you'd like!):
- Sedated, placed IV catheters and induced animals.
- Clipped and scrubbed surgical sites; positioned animals on surgery tables.
- Monitored vital signs during surgery. Administered atropine and epinephrine as directed.
- Scrubbed in and assisted in surgeries.
- Monitored and recorded vitals of animals in recovery; ear-tagged strays; administered subcutaneous fluids, Vitamin B, Penicillin and Torbugesic.
- Euthanized fetuses after pregnant spays. (<-- Also not sure if I should include this since B-euthanasia is a controlled substance)


Thanks for your opinions! BTW, I may or may not post more of these obnoxious questions as I obsessively comb through my application - I apologize in advance 😉

 

[twelvetigers]

Performed spays/neuters under the supervision of licensed veterinarians.

^ What I said about my experience with VIDA.

 

[Tiktaalik]

I said the same as TT.

 

[equitate]

^ What I said about my experience with VIDA.

Brilliant, thanks - that sounds perfect! Any thoughts about whether or not to include the euthanasia?

 

[twelvetigers]

Ummm... not really. If it worries you, leaving it out doesn't really leave your description lacking, so...

 

[lunajett]

Personally, I would leave out "performed neuter" and "euthanized." Maybe it's legal "under close supervision," not sure of regs myself, but either way I think it would just raise eyebrows amongst the adcoms and maybe sound like you were "grandstanding" a bit. And your surgical experience without those couple specifics sounds fantastic, so I don't see any need to add those "iffy" details. Just MHO, though.

 

[twelvetigers]

But I DID perform the neuter, start to finish. Under very scrutinizing eyes. It's not grandstanding, it's true. And legal in the country which it was performed.

I think it's way more than an "iffy detail" - it was a remarkable, one-of-a-kind experience, performed with great care.

 

[laurafinn]

I wouldn't say it. If I were a skeptical adcom member, I might be wondering what kind of standard of care the humanitarian group was providing, and might look less fondly on all of your experiences on the trip. Stick with listing tech duties.

Sorry, I know that's not what you want to hear.

 

[goldielocks137]

I don't see why you guys can't say that you performed a neuter. Isn't it somewhat common knowledge that this is standard on world vets/vida trips? I don't feel like adcoms would doubt the credibility of your application because of this experience

 

[heylodeb]

I said about the same thing that twelvetigers said - "Performed 9 spays/neuters under the supervision of a veterinarian"

I'm freaking proud of the surgeries that I did and it was legal where I was at the time and was under direct supervision. (however, I did choose NOT to make a big deal of it in my PS)

 

[twelvetigers]

I didn't even mention VIDA in my PS. *shrug*

We took great care of these animals and VIDA is a great organization. I hope they interview me and ask about it - I'll talk their ears off.

 

[sunshinevet]

I wouldn't say it. If I were a skeptical adcom member, I might be wondering what kind of standard of care the humanitarian group was providing, and might look less fondly on all of your experiences on the trip. Stick with listing tech duties.

Sorry, I know that's not what you want to hear.

I agree. Less so about castrations, as vet nurses here can perform those - but speys? If I were reading that, I'd be like... hell no would I want an unqualified person performing that! Regulations here (might be different in the US) allow veterinary nurses etc to perform basic procedures under the direct supervision of a vet, as long as it does not involve entering a body cavity (such as a spey does). So i would double check about whether or not performing a spey is legal (not doubting castration), because I imagine regulations are about the same.

Also, I think its less important to list every single procedure you can do - you will learn how to spey/neuter in vet school, I really don't think they care whether or not you can do it now - and more important to try and convey why this experience was worthwhile for your development as a veterinary professional, and why it confirmed your commitment to veterinary medicine.

 

[heylodeb]

well, I already submitted mine, and quite honestly - I'm not worried about it! WSU told me they thought it was a great addition to my app and a bunch of students from UC Davis (including 1st years - who don't know much more about surgery than I do!) are going on a trip this december.

They are MORE than welcome to invite me to an interview to ask me more about it. 😉

 

[Minnerbelle]

I think adcoms are well aware that pre-vets are allowed to partake in surgery in these abroad trips so I don't think you have to worry about it. As others have said, it's legal in the country where it was performed. If anything, be ready to talk about the ethical implications. I would definitely shy away from talking about it if anyone was illegally performing surgery here in the US in some clinic, where the vet "said they could." I understand that both situations are very similar in that you have an uneducated/untrained person performing surgery... but one is allowed and the other is not. Be ready to justify your position if you talk about it, and just don't be like "yeah, now i'm totally a surgeon. my vet totally lets me do them all the time now that i had this experience with VIDA/world vets"

As for euthanasias, I wouldn't worry about that either. It's legal even in most states for trained non-vets to administer euthanasia solution under the "supervision" of vets especially in a non-profit setting. By "supervision" this can even mean that vets are around but not actually watching directly. In lots of humane societies, vet techs and animal care techs are the ones euthanising a majority of the animals, not vets. It would be different though, if you personally "owned" the solution and had some on you.

 

[scb44f]

I am putting nearly the same wording as Twelvetigers on my application as well.

I also mentioned VIDA in one of my essays (only applying to Mizzou...4 essays, no PS). However, in my essay, I did not talk about surgery, but instead used a situation to support my answer to "Why vet med besides the animals?", and I explicitly stated that the veterinarian diagnosed and told us what we needed to do in the situation (a dog that was likely HBC).

 

[GellaBella]

I also think you should def include it, there's nothing wrong and there's no shame in what you did.

I do remember someone who's surgical exp from one of these trips was brought up in an interview, the adcoms seemed very surprised by the amount of surgical experience this person already had. So I guess not every adcom is aware of these groups and the level of experience you can get as a pre-vet but it is def vet experience and it's important vet experience - not only did you perform the surgery adequately, to the level of care required in those countries, but you interacted with foreign veterinarians in a way that made them sufficiently competent in your skills and ability.

I agree with minnerbelle though, be prepared to discuss the ethical implications. Of having unlicensed prevets perform these surgeries.

 

[Savethewhales]

I think it would benefit you to leave it off. I actually talked to a vet that I worked with and she said this is the stuff they are teaching you and they would probably prefer that you are learning it from them and not someone else. Its not expected that you have ever performed surgeries and I dont think any schools would go, hey we need this student because they preformed one neuter. I would leave it off. I dont think its worth the risk of upsetting any admission egos.

 

[heylodeb]

I don't think any of are listing it in bright bold letters with arrows pointing at it, (as if we could, lol) but have simply included it in the VERY long list of experiences that we had while we were there.

For heaven's sake, I hope it jumps out at them. This is the conversation I imagine:
Adcom 1: "Hey, let's interview that girl with the awesome personal statement."

Adcom 2: "which one? we have like 600 awesome PS"

Adcom 1: "oh you know, that one we read that talked about wanting to be a vet since she was a kid, who's worked in a small animal clinic, done a small amount of experience with other types of vet work, and worked on some undergrad research."

Adcom 2: "uhh....that doesn't help, dude."

Adcom 1: "OH WAIT - she was one that went on that international volunteer trip and ended up doing some surgeries"

Adcom 2: "ahh..right! I'll send her acceptance e-mail right now"

Or something like that. 🙂

basically I'm hoping it makes me rememberable (is that even the right word?).....

 

[goldielocks137]

Ha memorable. But your Adcom 1/Adcom 2 conversation was great

 

[168135]

I put: "Participated in male and female dog/cat castrations"

Above that, I had something like "Partipated in six 8-hour clinic days under the supervision of local veterinarians"

My school just recently had some of their students organize a VIDA trip, so they must know that those who go on the trip get to do surgery 😛

And it's not like "Here's the stuff you need, go do the surgery while I go have lunch". The vets had their hands in the patients, telling us what they wanted done and watching every single move we made. On my last spay (~ spay #10), the vets were still there, holding things out of my way and handing me instruments. By my 10th spay, when they told me to "Do a 360 knot here" they didn't have to explain it to me five different ways and move my hand when I started to do it in the wrong place. I'd do it right the first time they would tell me I'm doing a great job when I got it right.

If vet schools didn't agree with these trips, why are some of them sending 1st year students who have no experience at all or organizing these trips if they are so unethical.

 

[that redhead]

I put: "Participated in male and female dog/cat castrations"

Above that, I had something like "Partipated in six 8-hour clinic days under the supervision of local veterinarians"

My school just recently had some of their students organize a VIDA trip, so they must know that those who go on the trip get to do surgery 😛

And it's not like "Here's the stuff you need, go do the surgery while I go have lunch". The vets had their hands in the patients, telling us what they wanted done and watching every single move we made. On my last spay (~ spay #10), the vets were still there, holding things out of my way and handing me instruments. By my 10th spay, when they told me to "Do a 360 knot here" they didn't have to explain it to me five different ways and move my hand when I started to do it in the wrong place. I'd do it right the first time they would tell me I'm doing a great job when I got it right.

If vet schools didn't agree with these trips, why are some of them sending 1st year students who have no experience at all or organizing these trips if they are so unethical.

Technically for a female it wouldn't be castration, though. If you've already submitted, whatever, but if you can edit it I would say something like, "performed spays and neuters on both dogs and cats" or even "Performed ovariohysterectomy and castration on dogs and cats" if you want to be fancy. It's one of those little details that matters to me, like when a client calls in and wants their female dog castrated or their male dog spayed or whatnot. Sorry to nitpick!

 

[goldielocks137]

Technically for a female it wouldn't be castration, though.

Castration applies to both males and females. it simply indicates removal of reproductive organs

 

[heylodeb]

Castration applies to both males and females. it simply indicates removal of reproductive organs

👍 correct.

 

[Tiktaalik]

To everyone treating this as though it were a hypothetical:

I put spays and neuters, induction and euthanasia on my app. I got into both of the schools I applied to. My interviewers were very enthusiastic.

It's good experience, list it. Just don't talk it up - say what you did (spay/neuter/euth) and be done with it. The people reading your app will know what these procedures entail without needing it to be spelled out for them.

 

[168135]

VIDA sent me a letter and they used the word "castration". I paraphrased the letter, so I used the word. There is a 100 word limit on my description of duties. My VIDA description is exactly 100 words and I really don't want to cut something important out just to fit the word ovariohysterectomy in there 🙄.

I didn't mail it yet.